Also is it repairable?
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Also is it repairable?
Rainbow banding is when there are colored vertical lines going across the full length of your screen. The particular colors don't matter, it's the fact you have it is what counts.
A good way to test IMO is to get the Genesis to display a black/dark screen, say the SEGA logo on most Genesis games or the Sonic Team screen in Sonic 1.
Ok cool i dont have it.... pretty good considering my systems rear is smashed off exposing the motherboard and the power input is hanging by wires. I taped it all sealed shut with electrical tape and also position the power input to be stiff
oh gawd, i have it! Why does it only appear on "transparent" type things. My black screens and game screens are fine, but its the transparent effects in a game that make it show
Yeah, it's common, but fairly easy to mod for without requiring all capcitors be replaced. (though that's recomended if you experience other problems like messed up audio and Sega CD crashing issues) Either an S-video mod, or a redone composite video mod will solve the problem, see: http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7796&page=26Quote:
Originally Posted by salamando
Sounds like you need to get a new Sega Genesis my man.Quote:
Originally Posted by salamando
dont be a quitter baloo
I thought the waterfalls in Sonic 2 were how to tell. I went and they didn't work at all.
So I go see a waterfall in Sonic 1 and holy crap, you really do see it. Personally it gives the game an old school TV feel. :)
I think soem waterfalls in Sonic 2 work, the tubes in chemecal plant zone REALLY show it, I know the waterfalls in the first zone in Sonic 3 don't show it at all, but the one at the begining of Hydrocity does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
If it only happens on certain effects used by certain games, then that to me spells "artifact of the specific game". It doesn't sound like it has ANYTHING to do with the Hardware.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
You guys had me all freaked out about this for nothing! When I'm standing in front of the waterfalls in the first Act of Sonic the Hedgehog I see some 'rainbow artifacts'... but NO WHERE else in the game.. and I don't see those artifacts in any of the other 27 games I have.
Guys, it's called an Engine Artifact.
Just because a certain game on the PC has graphical issues doesn't mean there's something wrong with the hardware.
It's an issue with certain games, and so far I've only seen it on the bloody waterfalls of STH.
You can see it in most cases if you get the Genesis to display a black screen.
Funny, mine doesn't do that on a black screen. It only does it on Sonic the Hedgehog in the first world when in front of the Waterfalls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
I'm soooo relieved to learn that this was some weird 'console crowd based' misconception... you guys had me thinking there was potentially an issue with the Hardware and I come to find out it's related to specific games.. of which I've only seen it in one out of 28 so far.
It is a hardware issue, and occurs in every single game, it's just not always very noticeable, many waterfall effects show it, but not all, as do a variety of other transparency effects, liek the tubes in chemical plant zone in sonic 2. It seems to be caused only on consoles witht he CXA1145 video encoder, probably due to aging capacitors on the board. (this includes Model 2s) It's almost invisible in PAL video though.
It is not present in s-video mods or Ace's new composite video mod, and again, only occurs with that one type of video encoder chip -AFIK. (that mod is listed in one of the recent pages of Age's genesis model guide, but is basicly a 100-220 uF capacitor connected to the composite pin of the CXA1145, then a 33 Ohm resistor, then connect that to the composite video line on the AV port and/or RF port) The removal of the artifacting is an added bonus, the main purpose of the mod is to give sharper video. (as with the s-video mod)
It's definitively video encoding hardware issue. The thing is, it's more noticable under some specific color conditions (when using vertical stripped lines for example).
I'm also pretty sure this side-effect was voluntary used in some games to make fake transparency or more realistic shadow, what would be the point of using vertical bars instead of uniform colored area otherwise ?
For the record, this is also noticeable in "Twinkle Tales" (title screen and in-game character shadows).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eke-Eke
You're both incorrect. I only see it in the Waterfalls of Sonic 1 in the first world. I have not seen it ANYWHERE else... not on any black screens, and not on any of the other 27 games I have for the Genesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
If it was caused by "hardware", I'd see it in every game or multiple games.
Umm, it's not there. It's an artifact of one game... maybe I'll see the same programming in another game at some point, but so far, it's only visible in one game and for one water effect of said game. That doesn't point it to it being "hardware", it easily proves that it has something to do with Sonic 1 and that water effect.
Y'all have been dubunked.
If it's not in Sonic 2 or Sonic 3 (among a multitude of other games), we're not talking about the same problem... Again, the pipes in chemical plant zone are a key example. (actually the first time I experienced it)Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchool
It's most definitely in the video encoding hardware and apears to be specific to the CXA1145 video encoder only. (possibly in combination with old capacitors, as video mods elliminate it) It's barely visible in PAL if present at all, and NEVER visible via the native RGB output. (or though component video transcoders or RGB to HDMI converters)
I posted an upload of hydrocity in Sonic 3 for comparison earlier:Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
It's not even physically possible for it to be a software problem causing the VDP to do weird things as 1, it would be exceedign th enormal color capabilities of the VDP and 2, exceedign th epossible resolution of the console. (the artifacts occurs on more than a pixel per pixel basis) It's always there, but only significantly visible under certain conditions, it's a chroma artifact in the composite video -and again only with specifc video encoder and probably aging hardware.
One more time: it's not there in RGB, it's not therer in S-video or modded composite video for the CXA1145, and doesn't seem to occur on the fujisu or even the crappy samsung encoders.
That's just dithering, th evertical strips (or checkerboard patters, among others) taking advantage of the blurring effect of the composite video output (moreso with RF noise) to blend the dithering together and fake transparency. (it's quite vidible in th enative RGB output, unfiltered emulators, and S-video -though S-video can still have other differences from the native RGB output)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eke-Eke
Rainbow banding is a different problem and only on models with the CXA1145, possibly coming with age as well -due to dying capacitors. (and not very visible in PAL composite video, if at all)
The waterfall artifact does not appear when using a 32X. I think it's YOU who has been debunked. I'll even take pictures to prove it. Give me 5 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchool
Right, I forgot to mention the 32x as well. (but it's still an important note that it's not even a problem of the CXA1145 encoder, bnut in the external hardware on the board -hence why the redone composite mod and s-vide mod don't have it)
Also TmEE's post ffrom the other thread:as well as shots of NTSC composite (with ranbow banding) vs RGB from hereQuote:
Originally Posted by TmEEBehold - rainbow banding, albeit a bit extreme :
Click for full size
Here's the same shot in PAL :
Click for full size
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/c...reenshots.html
(note, I didn't bother positng the emulator screenshot that site also has)
http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/c...sonic_comp.jpghttp://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/c..._sonic_rgb.jpg
If you can't understand that, I give up... (it's not even visible on all waterfall type transparency effects, even in games that have soem areas with it visible, liek SOnic 2 and 3 have soem effects with vertial stripping with no ranbow banding visible, but other parts with it most certianly visible -on'y on specific hardware, of course)
*sigh* I tried to take pictures with a digital camera but the CRT-ness of the TV I was using got in the way, so I lugged my Genesis AND 32X over to my computer, hooked both AC bricks to the nearby power bar, hooked up both my video cables for swapping (I have a M1 Genesis) and run everything through a USB capture device. Not to mention I had to dig the M1 Genesis AC adapter from out behind my entertainment center (I have a spare M2 AC Adapter), take both of my only Genesis AV cords which were necessary and make sure nothing fell behind, otherwise I'd be doing a bit of fishing too.
I hope you're happy OldSchool... :mad:
GENESIS WITH RAINBOW BAND
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6063/28117145.jpg
SEGA 32X
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/9373/82975930.jpg
I might as well record VIDEO of Sonic moving back and forth given all the trouble I went to debunk this absolutely retarded argument.
32X certainly improves the composhit signal, better color balance, less blurring and less artifacts.
There's also no rainbow banding! -_-;
there is, just rather slight amount
It's barely even there, so what's the point of even mentioning it? Simple fact of the matter is I just proved OldSchool 100% wrong with (IMO) much better pictures than Kool Kitty supplied. It's pretty obvious they're screen caps from real hardware since no Genesis emulator to my knowledge includes the overscan (the blue border around the image).
They are real captures indeed, because of the border and CRAM write garbage (lower left).
:D
It doesn't improve it, it replaces it entirely. ;) And it doesn't necessarily improve it if the video encoder is really good already -with good external components as well. (like the fujitsu encoder and CXA1645 -though th elatter can apparently have some artifacts, possibly even rainbow banding, with bad external circuits) Of course, PAL doesn't exhibit the rainbowing (to a very noticeable effect) with PAL color signals.Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
I was surprised to see it at all, I thought that was specific to the CXA1145, maybe the 1645, and most likely tied to aging capacitors (though that might be the case on the 32x). I can see those more easily than any in TmEE's PAL picture, if I see them at all, they seem much narrower than in NTSC, possibly due to the higher colorburst frequency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
I wonder if the Samsung or Fujitsu chips ever produce such artifacts under the right conditions. (bad external components) All of them seem to lack the problem after modding (s-video or composite), and RGB never shows it, of course. (and no mods so far have improved the samsung's video)
I think the fujitsu encoder lacks the vertical lines in chroma that the sony encoders show in s-video.
Note: the vertical lines I see in composite video on my CXA1145 models (and toaster NES) which I've mentioned before, turned out to NOT be chroma artifacts, but rather in the luma. (opposed to the s-video chroma lines, which can even be blurred/blended to be invisible if ~400 ohm resistor/pot is added after chroma is amplified with a capacitor -won't work without the cap though, an all it does is blurr the chroma -luma remains improved though, so soem may prefer this route, especially if they like a filterd look in general, but not the other artifacts of composite video)
rainbow banding really sucks :mad:
I don't mind it that much really, at least the way it looks on my TVs. It's kind of neat in soem ways, thoug I wouln't mid if it was gone either.
Again, with soem basic solderign skills and a couple components (probably cot $5 or so if you by them in separately at radio shack or such -probably fry's) you can remove it and improve the compsote video quality in general (sharper), or with a little more work (mainly due to installing an additional connector) you can add S-video too.
(all my pics come off a Fujitsu chip form my MD2)
I guess that answers one question. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
Doesn't explain if the samsung or CXA1645 can experience the problem too though.
The PAL and NTSC shots are from different MDs though, rhight?
No, same MD2
Oh, so you have a switchable color clock for the MD, or did you just mean 50 Hz when you lised PAL? (which would mean the effect is much less visible in 50 Hz regardless of colorburst signal) If it is a variable color signal, why did you change the mode from 60 Hz to 60? (keeping both 60 Hz would have made for a simpler comparison)
I have NTSC and PAL master clocks in my MD2, no separate clocks for the subcarrier.
and answer your PM :P
Lol, you just proved my point:DQuote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
Looking at the Pic on the left with the Rainbow artifact that the Water effect exhibits... Sonic is standing RIGHT in the way of said artifact and that artifact doesn't affect Sonics' Sprite AT ALL... like I said, it's a simple artifact of that water effect.
Why the artifact isn't visible in RGB or when you're using the 32x is beyond me, but honestly I don't care to argue about this anymore. I've seen this artifact 'only' on the Waterfall of the first world of Sonic 1 and no where else so I could give a fuck less.
You hope I'm happy what... all you and these other people are doing with these photos is prove me right. The artifact only affects the Water and nothing else in the game. It's an artifact of that Water effect and nothing else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
Whoopdi do... the waterfall effect in a game that's almost 20 years old has an artifact. oh no I'm gonna cry about it.
gimme a break
Now, if this rainbow shit happened 100% of the time in every game I played, that would suck... and that would say to me that the Hardware was causing it without a doubt.
You can use the RGB output (or an emulator, which amounts to the same thing) to see there's nothing wrong with the "waterfall effect" (it's just a rotating palette anyway). It is an artifact of the process of converting RGB to composite, and it happens to show up particularly strongly in that waterfall effect because it creates conditions which make it particularly strong.
That said, people are from what I've seen making far too much of a big deal about it. It's not a massive glaring fault, it's just a harmless graphical artifact, same as the horizontal colour bleed which allows astute artists to fake additional shades of colour beyond what the Megadrive can actually produce. If you're really rainbow-phobic, find a television with a SCART input and use RGB.
No, I was asking if you were happy about me wasting my time to prove you wrong. Apparently those pictures aren't good enough for you, so I'll take some of other instances where rainbow banding can be seen. It DOES appear on the screen at all times. You probably have very little rainbow banding.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchool
Look, I do appreciate you taking time out of your day to do what you did... truly, I do... but christ.. I DO NOT SEE THAT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
I don't know how much clearer I can be. I don't see ANY artifacting with ANY colors on any of the 28 games I have except for that one waterfall effect in Sonic 1 in the first world. I don't see it on Black screens or anywhere else.
Please guys, save your breath, maybe I've got an uber special Model 1 er somethin.. I don't know. But I do know that I don't see that rainbow artifact anywhere except for the spot I've mentioned.
Sorry for coming off like a total assface, but guys... my Genny doesn't exhibit the issues you say it "does/should".
