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Oh... I'm not! http://www.sega-16.com/forum/image.p...ine=1217468276Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Your pictures is ABSOLUTELY simulated scan lines! (and blurry)
http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/cotton.png
.............No Scan Lines............................................. ...... With Simulated Scan Lines!
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3568/image8b.jpg
Blurry... Simulated Scan Lines!
The picture you posted as "simulated" scanlines, is ~75% scanlines. That doesn't simulate anything. Like I said, don't confuse simulated scanlines with blurriness. You can very much have NO FILTERING with 12-25% dim every other line, WITHOUT blurriness. A pic you haven't provided yet ;) And my pic has composite filtering. It has nothing to do with 25% scanlines or even what you posted. 25% "scanlines" != blur. The blur or filtering comes before the scanline effect (which is the LAST stage in any filtering). Also, why don't you posted a pic relative what I was referring to. You, low res Saturn and Genesis output.Quote:
Oh... I'm not!
Doesn't LCD also have image retention? I have seen many high-grade computer monitors from Dell and Apple with this issue. It goes away in a few minutes, but it is there nonetheless.
My laptop and my desktop LCD have no image retention. Well, none that you can see. My brothers 50"+ LCD in his office, sure as hell does though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
It happens as the monitors age, it was never there for the first year or two. I don't understand what causes this.
The thing I find funny is that LCD is NOW starting to catch up with Plasma's quality. When comparing bare bones LCD and Plasma displays, Plasma is the clear winner. Just the fact that you're comparing improved LCDs to bare bones Plasma indicates that LCD is worse. If we're taking into account recent improvements with both technologies, Plasma would still win, given it's preset edge against LCD. [/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
RGB is large square pixels, no filtering whatsoever, yet it's lauded as the absolute best signal for vintage games (not just technically) and is defacto in all high end applications of such. So are you saying those people are uneducated and don't care about quality?Quote:
Maybe if you have your face pressed up against the screen. People that like big square pixels are uneducated or don't care about quality. Or just plain prefer things looking like ass ;)
I hate nasty ass looking large square pixels. Even the Saturn, I run to the SDTV because it looks nasty on a large TV as such. But, to each their own.
Well, they aren't necessarily blurry, but they do show one the biggest problems with simulated scanlines. That being darkness. The picture without scanlines is big, bright and colorful, just like a CRT. The one with scanlines looks nothing like a CRT-displayed image, a significant amount of colorful-ness has been leeched out of the image, creating a horrible eyesore.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrbigreddog's big pictures
RGB looks best on a CRT monitor. A CRT monitor provides "scanlines" and free anti-aliasing to smooth out the blockiness. Compared to a direct, unfiltered screen capture from an emulator (reeeeallly blocky), I'll take RGB on a CRT any day.
Gruntz: That's true about Plasma. But from my experience, I haven't seen any upgrades in the technology yet (not that it doesn't exist).
Joe: This image retention is like 3-5 minutes. Not years. It's totally unacceptable. The top of the line $6000 Plasma he bought also had the very same problem. It's temporary burn in. Never seen anything like that before in my life. Soo glad I never got a plasma for that reason (and really made me look closer to LCDs too incase it had this problem). The 28" LCD TV I have (with SVGA and HDMI ports), has the same problem as the two above. 3-5 minutes and you got instant temp burn in. Except it takes much longer for it to get rid of it than the first two sets. It's basically a backup TV for when I need one.
That's why I said 100% scanlines (and close to that, even at 50%!), doesn't accurately simulate scanlines of a real monitor BITD. For a number of reasons; the "beam" wasn't that skinny on old 15khz monitors. You really tended to get "ballooning" of the scanlines. As in, they take up more width than the gap itself. It's not 1:1. If you ran later multisync monitors with thing beams, you'd get 1:1 or even less width on the actual scanline VS the gap. SDTV CRTs (be it RGB input or just plain RF/composite/svideo and even component SDTV sets) are pretty much in the same category as the old 15khz RGB monitors. You know why? Because as displays got bigger, interlacing artifacts became more noticeable. Fields with overlapping scanlines between even/odd helped keep the flicker down (even on smaller sets, not just bigger sets). Progressive outputs to SDTV (and old RGB monitors) still got a bit of a benefit from it. Thus, 100%,75%,50% don't "look" like the original monitors they are trying to emulate, even though the idea/logic seemed sound. You're eye interprets SDTV RGB/other progressive images that way it would see ~20-25% scanline effect on am image for a monitor today (which has practically 0 mask visibility).Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
But I'm with Joe. The old RGB TVs (CRTs) had a bit of analog filtering on edge transitions (because they weren't expensive/fast decoding setups). I like that look. That's why I run my emulators in the highest res possible, so that normal interpolation doesn't really effect the image much. Just a small amount on the edge transitions *similar*, but exact, to that of an old RGB set. HD sets could do with a bit of this. Make it a "classic" filter. I dunno no about you, but the pixel on Genesis/SNES/PCE/Saturn (cause there's no bilinear filtering on that system) is almost the size of my pinky nail on my HD set. No thank you :(
My name is not Gruntz.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
If you enjoy looking at your TV with no signal being displayed, then yeah this would be a problem. If the Plasma in question actually does show the image retention while something is being displayed, then there's something seriously wrong with that TV. On most Plasmas, the image retention is only visible when the TV is displaying a black image. Even then you have to get up close to the TV. Most people I know sit at least 7 feet from the TV.Quote:
Joe: This image retention is like 3-5 minutes. Not years. It's totally unacceptable. The top of the line $6000 Plasma he bought also had the very same problem. It's temporary burn in. Never seen anything like that before in my life. Soo glad I never got a plasma for that reason (and really made me look closer to LCDs too incase it had this problem). The 28" LCD TV I have (with SVGA and HDMI ports), has the same problem as the two above. 3-5 minutes and you got instant temp burn in. Except it takes much longer for it to get rid of it than the first two sets. It's basically a backup TV for when I need one.
Either you have a 60+ inch TV, or you have really small hands. On most 40" - 47" Plasmas the image looks picture perfect, though mind you yes there's next to no filtering, so you won't have anti-aliasing or scanlines, unless your TV has a crappy upscaler.Quote:
I dunno no about you, but the pixel on Genesis/SNES/PCE/Saturn (cause there's no bilinear filtering on that system) is almost the size of my pinky nail on my HD set. No thank you :(
Opps ;>_>Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
For the 28" LCD I was talking about? I'll have to take pics. It's BAD. As far as the plasma at my brothers house, you don't need a dim, or almost black, screen to see it.Quote:
If you enjoy looking at your TV with no signal being displayed, then yeah this would be a problem. If the Plasma in question actually does show the image retention while something is being displayed, then there's something seriously wrong with that TV. On most Plasmas, the image retention is only visible when the TV is displaying a black image. Even then you have to get up close to the TV. Most people I know sit at least 7 feet from the TV.
It's a 53" 4:3 HD set (it does 1080 at full height, and 1080 in special squished beam mode - the beam doesn't touch the upper and lower part of the CRT. Equiv to doing a vertical adjust on a CRT until it's a widescreen output. Love that fact. True 1080 in full height and true 1080 in letter boxed mode). And it's about equiv to a 60"+ widescreen if you played 4:3 non stretched image on that kind of TV.Quote:
Either you have a 60+ inch TV, or you have really small hands. On most 40" - 47" Plasmas the image looks picture perfect, though mind you yes there's next to no filtering, so you won't have anti-aliasing or scanlines, unless your TV has a crappy upscaler.
I was referring to the Plasma. Either way, I've sometimes left this one Panasonic Viera on with an image for several hours, then went back to play a game and the image still looks just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Must be one of those really odd CRTs, the ones with a sort of hard plastic front instead of glass. A friend of mine had one like that, but then it died.Quote:
It's a 53" 4:3 HD set (it does 1080 at full height, and 1080 in special squished beam mode - the beam doesn't touch the upper and lower part of the CRT. Equiv to doing a vertical adjust on a CRT until it's a widescreen output. Love that fact. True 1080 in full height and true 1080 in letter boxed mode). And it's about equiv to a 60"+ widescreen if you played 4:3 non stretched image on that kind of TV.
Still, I thought you had a LCD or Plasma of that size, a CRT is a completely different subject and one that is irrelevant to my original argument.
There is a guy around that is building little boxes that convert the Genesis signal out to S-video like those old (really hard to find, really expensive) XMD boxes. Results are supposed to be impressive. Once I have one in hand I'll report back as to the results. The cost is about half of what an XMD is typically going for nowadays.
I'm pretty sure most new plasmas have several features to combat image retention. Mine has this thing with a white bar sweeping across the screen, that supposedly gets rid of any image retention when you run it. I say supposedly, because I've yet to have any image retention. It also has something called "pixel orbiter" that slightly shifts the image every so often.
CRTs can certainly have image retention as well.
Yeah, I forgot the newer Panasonic Viera has a "sleep mode" function, where it dims the screen when a still image has been left on the screen for a while.
On the CRT subject, it's not screen retention, it's burn-in. Anybody who's been exposed to Arcade games knows all too well about it. Most Arcade games are left running 24-7, stuff like the score and time can leave a permanent (and very noticeable) imprint on the TV. You'd think tomaitheous would have mentioned that...