Digital TV (out with the old and in with the new)

Have been nothing but happy with my 42" panasonic viera 600Hz Plasma for all my gaming needs, although I do keep an old CRT set up for certain older systems and light gun games.

http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/b...om/robocop.jpg

This is my NES running through composite, so you can imagine what my MegaDrive and Saturn look like through RGB.

The only 2 major problems I've faced are:

1. It REALLY does not like the Dreamcast, no matter what connection I use there's loads of distortion and through RGB a large portion of the picture is off the left side of the screen.

2. The analogue tuner just wont tune in properly to my older RF based consoles, so my Atari 2600 is sadly a no-no :(

Pics? Hmm, if anybody wants, I can take pics of a few different consoles on a North American Panasonic Viera through RF, Composite or S-Video. I have quite a few different mainstream consoles, just ask and I might have one. :)

Light guns? I wonder when somebody is going to ask the inevitable question of why they don't work on them?

Could you post a couple pictures of a Genesis and N64? Maybe a couple on a rainbow banding Genesis with Sonic 1 waterfalls and one with small text?

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Originally Posted by Guntz

I'll re-iterate my original post, to try and clear a few things up. I posted this elsewhere but it applies here all the same:

Usually people run into problems with upscaling and how the TV handles SD content (like that of the NES).

Remember, the NES's resolution is about 320x240 while most HDTVs these days can display a signal at 1920x1080. That is a whopping huge gap in size. The average HDTV will stretch the NES's resolution to that, even though it's receiving a composite signal. This is partly why the NES can look like garbage on new HDTVs.

A good HDTV will switch the display mode to 720i or lower for older machines at 320x240. This can help immensely. A good upscaler also makes or breaks the TV. A bad upscaler can induce the following symptoms:

- Input lag
- strained image
- blurry image on S-Video
- overall nasty looking image

As far as how this applies to purchasing the TV, many people have suggested bringing your favorite vintage console into the store to test it on whatever TV you're looking at, since things like the upscaler need to be tested with an actual SD device. If you can't do this, I recommend getting a Panasonic Viera Plasma HDTV. These are very high quality TVs that work great with SD content.

S-Video works the best with older systems, if they support it. S-Video produces a very clear image, which is what you want on a HDTV. The NES, sadly only having composite, WILL look a bit blurry on a HDTV. This is because of the composite signal, not the TV. On The Panasonic Vieras though, the blurriness of composite is hard to notice, so you'll be good to go.

Hope this helps. :)

Also, any mention of an HDTV in the above will be a minimum of 40". Any smaller and everything mentioned will not be relevant.

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Your post is greatly appreciated, thank you sir!

In regard to resolution: as some other gentlemen have mentioned... aren't there some TVs which will give me the option to use a resolution that matches the resolution of the Console? In the case of the NES, 320x240? If that's the case, then wouldn't be the same as what my 27" Analog looks like, only much bigger?...


thks

Let's use a PC monitor as an analogy to help better explain resolutions. When you have a 1280x1024 monitor, then shrink it to 800x600, everything gets really big. Then when you display an image with a 640x480 resolution, there isn't as much screen to fill when the computer stretches the image to match the current resolution.

In the case of an HDTV, having it display a low resolution image at a low screen resolution, the image will not be stretched as much if it were displayed at full resolution. Compare 320x240 to 1920x1080. Just get the 1920x1080 smaller and your vintage games will look much better!

Deo: I'll snap some pics tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

Let's use a PC monitor as an analogy to help better explain resolutions. When you have a 1280x1024 monitor, then shrink it to 800x600, everything gets really big. Then when you display an image with a 640x480 resolution, there isn't as much screen to fill when the computer stretches the image to match the current resolution.

In the case of an HDTV, having it display a low resolution image at a low screen resolution, the image will not be stretched as much if it were displayed at full resolution. Compare 320x240 to 1920x1080. Just get the 1920x1080 smaller and your vintage games will look much better!

Deo: I'll snap some pics tomorrow.

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Yeah... like I was saying.. if the TV will give me 320x240, then my old Consoles should look great no matter what size the TV is.


I have a feeling I'm going to fall in loooove with the 65" I'll be getting.

That's still a pretty big IF. Not every HDTV is capable of lowering it's native resolution to accommodate for lower resolution signals. If I recall correctly, some HDTVs have a screen setting to display a signal at it's original resolution without any scaling. This can help you determine how well the TV works with these low res signals.

I sat down and took some pictures of Genesis and N64 games for Deo, but the quality of these pictures is awful. They do not do the TV justice. I'm gonna try and take pics with my trusty old HP camera.

Take your time with the pictures and thanks for the update!

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Originally Posted by Guntz

That's still a pretty big IF. Not every HDTV is capable of lowering it's native resolution to accommodate for lower resolution signals. If I recall correctly, some HDTVs have a screen setting to display a signal at it's original resolution without any scaling. This can help you determine how well the TV works with these low res signals.

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By no scaling, do you mean displaying an image as square pixels in a little window?

VGA seems to be the most flexible input on HDTVs by far. With a PC hooked up, there are way more possible resolutions (pretty much any the video card supports) our Sanyp LCD accepts than though HDMI. (this may be related to the vide card/drivers though, but DVI/HDMI is a real PITA in that case -1024x768 is the only unscaled resolution which displays, VGA works with 1360x768 among a broad array of others -includign higher resolutions which the TV downconverts)

Soem HD sets even accept 15 kHz sync signals via VGA, that's SD content. However, I think it still needs separate H and V-sync, so composite sync devices won't work. (and relatively few HD sets seem to support this -SCART is the usual option for Standard def RGB elsewhere though)

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Originally Posted by Deo

Take your time with the pictures and thanks for the update!

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No problem. I had a busy weekend and I felt bad for not getting around to doing those pictures. Kind of annoying this Sony Handycam doesn't take very nice pictures, but awesome video. It's the only widescreen camera I have. I'm gonna have to use a 4:3 camera which takes ridiculously awesome pictures instead.

My issue with the Sony Handycam was that all the color was washed out. The Genesis and N64 look amazingly vibrant on this HDTV. I'll let the pictures do the talking once I get that sorted out.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

By no scaling, do you mean displaying an image as square pixels in a little window?

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Yeah, a border around the image.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guntz

Yeah, a border around the image.

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That would be a nice feature to have, as would direct pixel doublers in combination with that. (to give sharper upscaling, though that latter one is less likely)

Even for HD, that's improtant as 1280x720 scaled to 1360x768 (the common native resolution for 720p LCD/Plasma sets), you get a good bit of blur from scaling. With a native display mode, 1280x720 would have a small boarder (only about 5-6% of the screen height/width) and pixel perfect video, well worth the boarder. (unless the blurring actually makes it look better, hiding artifacts and such)
1080p sets tend to have pixel accurate resolutions, which also means soemthing like 720p would leave a big boarder unscaled. (though pixel doubled 480p would fill a good portion of the screen - direct 2x scaling, no interpolation)

On PCs, media players allow you to set a fixed resolution, like the original native resolution, or direct pixel doubling or halving. (2x scaling or 1/2 scaling) So if you have a PC hooked up to an HDTV set to the native resolution, one could indeed display movies in the proper resolution if one so desired, or use direct 2x scaling for 480p stuff.
-VGA seems best to this given the problems I've seen with getting native resolution displayed via HDMI. (not sure if this is specifc to our TV or PC though)

honestly goodwill sells them for like 15-15 bucks with S-video and componant hook-ups (crt). I dont see the point if you're just gonna play classic games on it to spend money on a HDTV.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Even for HD, that's improtant as 1280x720 scaled to 1360x768 (the common native resolution for 720p LCD/Plasma sets), you get a good bit of blur from scaling. With a native display mode, 1280x720 would have a small boarder (only about 5-6% of the screen height/width) and pixel perfect video, well worth the boarder. (unless the blurring actually makes it look better, hiding artifacts and such)
1080p sets tend to have pixel accurate resolutions, which also means soemthing like 720p would leave a big boarder unscaled. (though pixel doubled 480p would fill a good portion of the screen - direct 2x scaling, no interpolation)

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Good point. Concerning scale blurring, I was running my Genesis on the Panasonic Viera through composite and yes, it was a bit blurry. But that's composite, not the TV. I was playing several N64 games (on S-Video) and the only one that looked rough was Ocarina of Time. I think it's because of this odd static the TV has and the cable (somewhat a poor S-Video cable). Mario Kart 64 and Perfect Dark (high res) looked unbelievable! I showed my younger sister Perfect Dark and she was in shock and awe. She didn't think an N64 game could look that clear and sharp. :D

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Originally Posted by JackieBogard

honestly goodwill sells them for like 15-15 bucks with S-video and componant hook-ups (crt). I dont see the point if you're just gonna play classic games on it to spend money on a HDTV.

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It's because sooner or later, HDTVs will be the only way to go. Sure this might take 30+ years, but eventually we all will have to upgrade to HDTVs. Vintage games can look good on them as I will prove with pictures soon enough.

Not to mention, some people only have room for a nice thin HDTV, not an HDTV and a CRT. These sorts of people need to embrace the newer technology or they'll have to leave their vintage games behind.

So I need top of the line... a TV that will give me resolutions 1080 and everything below.. and I need it to have the best Upscaler around.

Any suggestions on Brands, guys? I'm thinking Sony right off the bat.
I'd rather shop for a new Sound Card for Production than look for a new tv :|


Thanks for all the help thus far: you all rock:!:
:D