[Help!] Top-20 Mega Drive/Genesis Games

I’m working on a Top-20 video for YouTube featuring, not my favorite, but the 20 best games of the console. Objectivity is such a hard thing when it comes to retro games. Choosing one game per franchise and trying to come up with the choices after a multifaceted examination of the subject, taking into consideration the final quality of the titles, their importance and any evolutionary, or even revolutionary, elements of theirs, proportional always to the time of their release. I managed to come up with a final list.

• Sonic The Hedgehog (I’d choose Sonic 2)
• Ecco: The Tides of Time
• Contra: Hard Corps
• Streets of Rage 2
• Ranger-X
• Phantasy Star IV
• Alien Soldier
• Monster World IV
• Street Fighter 2: SCE
• Herzog Zwei
• Ristar
• International Superstar Soccer Deluxe
• Gunstar Heroes
• Monster World IV
• Story of Thor/Beyond Oasis
• LandStalker
• Shinobi III
• Shining Force II
• Dynamite Headdy
• Vectorman
• Comix Zone
• Rocket Knight Adventures
• Thunder Force IV
• M.U.S.H.A.
• Mega Turrican
• Shadowrun
• Castlevania: Bloodlines
• Pulseman
• Earthworm Jim
• Virtua Racing
• Toejam & Earl
• Warsong
• Starflight

I’d call the Mega Drive/Genesis Top-20 as the hardest of all, mainly because I find the console’s library, after a point, so damn balanced.
Right now, my list looks like this:

• 1: Sonic The Hedgehog 2
• 2: Shining Force II
• 3: Phantasy Star IV
• 4: Gunstar Heroes
• 5: Shinobi III
• 6: Street Fighter 2: SCE
• 7: Herzog Zwei
• 8: Streets of Rage 2
• 9: Ristar
• 10: Contra: Hard Corps
• 11: Thunder Force IV
• 12: International Superstar Soccer Deluxe
• 13: Ecco: The Tides of Time
• 14: Dynamite Headdy
• 15: Rocket Knight Adventures
• 16: Alien Soldier
• 17: LandStalker
• 18: Story of Thor
• 19: Vectorman
• 20: Comix Zone

I know that giving a spot to a football (soccer) game seems weird and all:daze:, especially considering the fact that Americans don’t really care about soccer. But, being a European myself, I consider ISS Deluxe to be the epitome of football games back in the day. A title way ahead of any other soccer game back then and an evolutionary game in a lot of ways.

I don’t know if I’m going to change anything, but I’d like to hear the thoughts of more people about it. Ranger-X, MUSHA and Monster World IV, are the three titles that bother me the most for leaving them out. It’s only natural that, when it comes to so damn balanced situations, objectivity gives its place to subjectivity, but any thoughts would really be appreciated.:)

It's impossible to be truly objective when it comes to top lists like this, so I'd say it's an ok list, BUT: a top 20 just doesn't cut it when you want to feature the best games. I'd make it a top 50, or even top 100, so you don't have to stick to the one game per franchise rule and as such there won't be any classics left out. After all, if the point is to inform people of all the classic games the platform has to offer, you want the list to be as complete as possible.
Don't limit yourself to list length or a one-game-per-franchise rule, unless your resources are in short supply.

My questions:

Why is International Superstar Soccer Deluxe on there? I've never even heard of it, and I question why you consider it revolutionary.

What made Landstalker and Beyond Oasis revolutionary? Forgive my ignorance but I'm not into RPGs at all- I view them as unnecessarily complicated trash as a whole.

I'm shocked that Musha isn't listed as well. Why do you consider it less revolutionary than the others?

Saying it's not a list of your favourite games and then going on to include a soccer game does seem a bit contradictory.

the one game per franchise rule is stupid, yeah its nice to make room for something else, but whats a top genny games list without both sonic 2 and 3?

you should do a bit more research. it seems as if there are a ton of great games you have not played yet.

either that or your taste is in your ass. no musha?

I don't know about Dynamite Headdy being in the top 20. It's a top 100 sure, maybe even a top 50, but top 20... I'd disagree.

No S3&K in Top1 = Fail :P

ISS Deluxe was an incredible game and one of the most important soccer games ever released. It was for mid 90’s, what Winning Eleven managed to be for the 00’s. From tactics to dribbling mechanics everything was so much ahead of its time. The step from Sensible Soccer to ISS, was more than huge for soccer games. But as I said before, it wasn’t just the evolution of the genre, but the whole quality of the game. I can’t find any reviews of the Mega Drive version, but, even though it doesn’t necessarily say much, take a look at the reception of the SNES one.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/home/588391.html

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Originally Posted by Olls

It's impossible to be truly objective when it comes to top lists like this, so I'd say it's an ok list, BUT: a top 20 just doesn't cut it when you want to feature the best games. I'd make it a top 50, or even top 100, so you don't have to stick to the one game per franchise rule and as such there won't be any classics left out. After all, if the point is to inform people of all the classic games the platform has to offer, you want the list to be as complete as possible.
Don't limit yourself to list length or a one-game-per-franchise rule, unless your resources are in short supply.

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That’s an excellent point that I fully agree with.
But we’re already done with the rest of the videos according to the one game per franchise rule.

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Originally Posted by Why-Disciple

My questions:

Why is International Superstar Soccer Deluxe on there? I've never even heard of it, and I question why you consider it revolutionary.

What made Landstalker and Beyond Oasis revolutionary? Forgive my ignorance but I'm not into RPGs at all- I view them as unnecessarily complicated trash as a whole.

I'm shocked that Musha isn't listed as well. Why do you consider it less revolutionary than the others?

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I’m not listing the 20 most revolutionary titles I’m trying to list the 20 best games of the system. That’s why I started this thread, so I can take feedback and read more judgments on the matter. Among the criteria, any evolutionary or revolutionary elements of a game should be considered. I don’t say that a game has to be evolutionary of revolutionary.

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Originally Posted by shinobimusashi

you should do a bit more research. it seems as if there are a ton of great games you have not played yet.

either that or your taste is in your ass. no musha?

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Originally Posted by Loggo

Ranger-X, MUSHA and Monster World IV, are the three titles that bother me the most for leaving them out.

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Originally Posted by Why-Disciple

Forgive my ignorance but I'm not into RPGs at all- I view them as unnecessarily complicated trash as a whole.

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Seems lika a very biased opinion that shouldn't be taken into consideration when making a list such as this. :|

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Originally Posted by Loggo

The step from Sensible Soccer to ISS, was more than huge for soccer games.

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The technical step from Sensi to FIFA was also huge, but Sensi was still the better game. From my experience of reading debates in forums, Sensi is generally looked upon by most as being the best football game of the 16-bit era. I see ISS Deluxe as more of a stepping stone towards today's WE/PES series rather than a game I'd still play today.

Of course, our US brethren will be quick to dismiss Sensi as being a classic, despite it being one of the most fun multiplayer games of the era, as most of them have no interest in the sport. Personally I think it deserves a place in the top ten so maybe US gamers could just replace it with the Madden/Montana/Bill Walsh game of their choice?

ISS might have better graphics and more options, but SS is generally considered to be the 16-bit footy game with the best gameplay.
The question is: do you want games on your list that are fun to play, or games that are revolutionary?
For example, Herzog Zwei is revolutionary in the sense that it was pretty much the first rts game ever, but is it fun to play now? Would you recommend it to people that recently picked up a genny? I sure wouldn't. It's slow, boring and tedious to play since everybody is spoiled with all the latest rts offerings.

On a sidenote: Strider was the first 8 meg cart, the best arcade port up to then and is still considered an absolute classic. Shouldn't it have landed a spot on your list?

Three games on your list feel out of place, for different reasons.
- Landstalker, it's good but nothing really special and it certainly doesn't bear the "classic" stamp. It's more of a sleeper hit. Top 100 material.
- ISS for reasons discussed above, and because I feel that there are much better and more fun games on the Genesis that are unique and actually represent the console (Toejam & Earl, where is it?), instead of the gazillion sports games that are all the same and are still being released today in the exact same form with updated visuals.
- Herzog zwei because it's absolutely boring and nobody that hasn't played it back then will be bothered to play it now, for longer than 10 minutes anyway.

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Originally Posted by Loggo

• 12: International Superstar Soccer Deluxe
• 19: Vectorman
• 20: Comix Zone

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These don't belong on a Top-20 imho.

Also, where's Castle of Illusion, Revenge of Shinobi, Bare Knuckle III, Golden Axe III, Quackshot, World of Illusion, Wonderboy in Monsterworld, and one billion shmups ?

Personally I'd also replace SF2CE with SSF2, and Shining Force 2 with Shining Force 1.

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Originally Posted by Zebbe

Seems lika a very biased opinion that shouldn't be taken into consideration when making a list such as this. :|

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I Agree w/ Zebbe :ok:

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

These don't belong on a Top-20 imho.

Also, where's Castle of Illusion, Revenge of Shinobi, Bare Knuckle III, Golden Axe III, Quackshot, World of Illusion, Wonderboy in Monsterworld, and one billion shmups ?

Personally I'd also replace SF2CE with SSF2, and Shining Force 2 with Shining Force 1.

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The one game per franchise thing rules out most of the games you mentioned.
Also, it would be silly to have like 10 shmups on a top 20 list, even if it is the most dominant genre.

Well, exactly as silly as if you were to list 10 platformers or 10 run 'n guns.

I am not sure the "1 game per franchise" (or genre) thing does help. It certainly doesn't in case of Shinobi.

True, hence why it should've been more than just 20 games. There are already too many of these top 20 lists on youtube, and none of them encompass the entire library of great games, because they're heavily subjective or just too short.
But if you can make a nice video out of it, unlike most of the already existing vids which are pretty boring, it would probably still be worth watching.

Regarding the ISS matter, I wasn’t talking about the technical step I was talking about the evolution in the gameplay mechanics. Sensible Soccer was indeed an excellent title and, maybe, the first game of the genre that managed to capture the essence of football. It was far beyond anything else released at the time. But ISS was a big step forward, a more modern game in almost every way. And yes, SC was always better than FIFA.

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Originally Posted by Olls

On a sidenote: Strider was the first 8 meg cart, the best arcade port up to then and is still considered an absolute classic. Shouldn't it have landed a spot on your list?

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Strider was a good game, but I think that, in general, it’s a bit overrated due to its good port and graphics at the time. I think that, even at the time of its release, there were better games in the 8bit consoles.

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Originally Posted by Olls

The question is: do you want games on your list that are fun to play, or games that are revolutionary?
For example, Herzog Zwei is revolutionary in the sense that it was pretty much the first rts game ever, but is it fun to play now? Would you recommend it to people that recently picked up a genny? I sure wouldn't. It's slow, boring and tedious to play since everybody is spoiled with all the latest rts offerings.

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It really isn’t one way or the other. As I said before, I’m not listing the 20 most revolutionary games of the console, evolutionary/revolutionary elements are just one of the criteria.

In my opinion, objectivity (at least, an attempt to achieve objectivity) comes through multifaceted examination. Some of the criteria are the following:

1: The final quality of a title proportional to the time of its release
2: Any evolutionary/revolutionary elements
3: The influence of a title in the medium
4: How well a title has aged compared to the rest of the console’s library

I used the above criteria as a guide in my attempt to come up with my list.

Regarding the Herzog Zwei matter, even though I don’t fully agree, that’s a good point. And if I was listing the most revolutionary games of the console Herzog Zwei would probably be at number one. Personally, I’m completely opposite with any attempt to judge a retro title by modern standards, especially in an attempt to list the best games of a retro console. The aging of a game is a matter of a lot of things, mostly uneven between the genres. For example, the evolution in FPS’s is faster that the evolution of platforms ect (for reasons that are a whole different subject). As a result, today, Rayman 2 can be considered a better game than Golden Eye. It’s way more playable than the, almost unplayable by today’s standards, 1997 FPS with the archaic A.I. So are Yoshi’s Story and Smash Bros and a lot of other Nintendo 64 games. But if I was making a list with the best games of the Nintendo 64, I couldn’t put any of these titles higher than Golden Eye just because they play better by today’s standards. If I was making a list with the 20 most well aged games of the console that would be a different thing though.

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Originally Posted by Olls

- Landstalker, it's good but nothing really special and it certainly doesn't bear the "classic" stamp. It's more of a sleeper hit. Top 100 material.

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Hm, I think that you’re being a little too harsh on LandStalker. Being an Action/Adventure with Zelda influences was never an easy thing. I always had a high respect for the titles that did a good job implementing a Zelda influenced formula. A formula that, if implemented well, can give great games. And I regard LandStalker as a good implementation.

By the way, I want to thank you very much for the discussion and your thoughts. I’d really like to see a list coming from you some day.:ok:

Well that clears up most of the confusion. And with those criteria listed it makes sense. :) I still want to know why Toejam & Earl didn't make the cut, or wasn't even considered.
I have a "100 essential Megadrive/Genesis games" list that I made a while ago. I'll probably open a topic about it soon to fire up another heated debate about which games do and do not belong, although I'm still waiting for shinobimusashi to post his yt top 100 vid. :cool:

I'd say skip the objectivity bit, just add games that you feel passionately about and try to make this interesting to read/watch.

Mine would look something like this:

Panorama Cotton
Sonic the Hedgehog 2
Rocket Knight Adventures
Sonic & Knuckles
Langrisser II
Micro Machines: Turbo Tournament '96
Ristar: The Shooting Star
Mega Bomberman
Landstalker
Contra: Hard Corps (JP)
Gunstar Heroes
M.U.S.H.A.
Thunder Force III
Monster World IV
Thunder Force IV
Battle Mania Daiginjou
Phantasy Star IV: End of the Millennium
Dynamite Headdy (JP)
Shining Force II
Shinobi III

9-20 change on an almost daily basis however.

I can't be bothered to read anybody else's post, but if Sonic 2 isn't number 1 then this list is void and riddled with lies.

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Originally Posted by Olls

Well that clears up most of the confusion. And with those criteria listed it makes sense. :) I still want to know why Toejam & Earl didn't make the cut, or wasn't even considered.
I have a "100 essential Megadrive/Genesis games" list that I made a while ago. I'll probably open a topic about it soon to fire up another heated debate about which games do and do not belong, although I'm still waiting for shinobimusashi to post his yt top 100 vid. :cool:

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Toejam & Earl was considered, it’s in the final list I posted.
I’ll be waiting for your list, as I’m very interested in your choices.:D

EDIT
Oh crap, you’re right! I just checked the op post and I didn’t copy the whole list (I had it on a Word doc ).

Earthworm Jim
Virtua Racing
Toejam & Earl
Warsong
Starflight

Where also in the final list.