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I don't know how political threads usually go around here, so I'm hoping this won't cause any heated arguments, but I'm wondering about everyone's opinion on this. Is it a step in the right direction? Even if you're not American, I'd like to hear your thoughts.
I'll be keeping an eye on this thread and whoever posts in it. Consider yourselves warned. Discuss rationally and calmly.
OK, everyone point and laugh, but what's there to get up in arms about? I saw a quick feature about this on the news last night, and from what I could put together the new bill basically ensures that every American is guaranteed to be covered by some form of health insurance.
I, um, don't see how that's a bad thing. It's not a total blanket coverage in the style of our own NHS, but it achieves a similar goal in a different way.
This is good. Money shouldn't decide who gets health care, everyone should get it. Especially children. I also read in the Bible it's good if people help each other.
I kinda wish they would have unanimously passed all the stuff that both parties agreed upon and slugged it out over the shit they didn't.
BUT THAT WOULD MAKE TOO MUCH SENSE.
I looked forward to this on the grounds that maybe some type of health care would be more affordable to me. My work dropped me from theirs, and the similarly setup "pay into" program was astronomical in price in comparison. At work I paid $16 a month for coverage, the pay into coverage is over $200 a month. And that $200/month coverage *STILL* still would not fully cover my 4-month follow up CAT scans, so I'd still have about $500-800 *every 4 months* adding to a growing total. :bang:
From what I understand, it's going to cost money for everyone, and everyone is going to be forced to buy health insurance if they don't already have it. I don't know how bad that could get, but at this point I think it's worth it. Last year alone I had four operations, and I don't want to have to pay for that in full if I don't have insurance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elusive
FUCK OBAMA THAT LOBSTER EATING, PRESSED SUIT FASCIST!Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
I'm kidding.
Seriously though, does anyone have a link to a concise, unbiased layout of what exactly the plan is? I hear people bitching on both sides, but none can really give me any answers to what the plan entails exactly.
I like the idea of universal healthcare, and really this is just going to try to fix all of the problems hospitals have with treating uninsured people that can't pay and then charging people with insurance $100 for an aspirin to make up for it, but I don't know enough about Obama's plan specifically to know if it is good or not. The biggest concern of many people on the opposing end is that they think it will lead to the death of private insurance and then they'll be stuck with inadequate care since most federally run health care programs limit visits, etc. or won't treat certain problems. I will say, though, it would be nice to not have to worry about insurance packages via employment just to know I can have affordable treatment if I have an unexpected health problem. I mean, what if I broke my leg while I was between jobs? that could get sketchy.
thats a total ripoff, i pay less than that for health & dental insurance and im self employed, not 16$, but nowhere near 200$Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Venture
Basically this is what all the other civilized countries in the world have been doing for ages, and in general it has worked well enough. The US is simply playing catch-up, and it's about time too.
I'm glad that I can walk my pasty ass into oncoming traffic, wake up 6 months later and wheel my crippled ass home without having to worry about anything but the $150 Ambalamps fee. Thankya Canada. :ok:
mandatory... i totally and completely refuse.
What was the resolution with Abortions? I haven't read to much on the terms off this? I
It doesn't cover abortions.
I really hope you don't get anything serious, one that requires frequent visits to the hospital will mount into uncontrollable debt.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThugsRook
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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
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Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
does any insurance? what's the policy on that now? It was my understanding that they were heavily subsidized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Venture
As for general stuff, I'd rather lower premiums and charge a reasonable fee ($50-$100+ depending on what it is) to keep people from abusing it and running to the doctor because their shit stinks more than usual. Not enough to break the bank, but just enough to keep people from taking the whole tray of free sample sausages at Wal-Mart, metaphorically speaking.
Yeah, I don't get the "I don't want health coverage" argument. I mean, people say "just let me die," but the reality is that if you got in, say, a car accident and were unconscious, they're going to treat you. Furthermore, almost everyone owes money to someone (house, car, etc.) and when someone just offs themselves, that creates a big burden on family members etc. I know that part sounds a little fucked up, but it's reality. Everyone needs some sort of health care plan, but I just hope this plan does it right and doesn't let the "gimme gimme" able-bodied welfare scum piss away everyone elses healthcare money on their non-issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Venture
The girl in Rusty's avatar picture sure has nice boobies! Heh! Heh-heh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
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The thing that ticks me off about the healthcare bill is that they started with the much more meaningful goal of lowering healthcare costs. Healthcare is ridiculously expensive (ask anyone who has been to the emergency room lately or who has been managing an illness like cancer). Not only do we need to manage the ever upwardly spirialing costs, we need to address the underlying causes of why those costs are spiraling upward. But, in the end, they passed a bill creating (so called) universal health care but I think what we will get in the end is higher costs for all and making an already complex process of getting and paying for healthcare even more complicated and difficult to navigate.
Additionally, two of our three branches of government have spent more than a year debating this issue almost exclusively while almost entirely ignoring a multitude of other pressing issues which need attention while further driving wedges between the (so-called) liberal and conservative factions which will insure a continued inability to work together to get anything useful accomplished at the federal level.
Meh. Just another point for the "I'm entitled to everything" crowd.
If I can't afford an accident, fine. I don't deserve help blindly.
I think it's one of those things that looks a lot better on paper than it will be in practice.
Does anyone know of a site that can break this new bill down? I can't seem to find anything except for little snipets.
Some of my comments about the whole shebang:
1. What constitutional authority does the Gov't have to require you to purchase insurance?
2. Difficult to understand claim that they are going to add lots of people, but still cut $500 Billion (yes, with a 'B') from Medicare.
3. Rather than screw with the whole system, why not just create a plan for those who cannot get coverage elsewhere, much like the MAIF system that we have for auto insurance in Maryland?
4. Why no tort reform?
5. The way that this was gone about, with seemingly nobody knowing what is in the bill/law.
6. Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi's comment to the effect of: "We have to pass the bill before we can see what is in it."
7. The blatant bribery and vote buying in order to get it to pass.
8. If this is not to take place for a number of years, why the major push to get it passed 'right now'?
9. Related to #7, When tacking on extra fees to 'Cadillac Health Plans', those provided by the major labor unions are exempt. Sound fair to you?
There are others, but I will leave it at these for now.
JY
The current policy on abortion is that the Federal Government cannot use taxpayer dollars to fund abortions. The "abortion deal" that allowed health care reform to be passed was basically an agreement with Obama (executive order) in which he would keep the status quo. I could be way off, but I believe this applies to choice abortions, not in instances of rape or saving the mothers life. Could be wrong.
I think "Obamacare" is a step in the right direction. It has its flaws, but that has a lot to do with the fact that the US government is so afraid to take large risks, like installing a public option. As is, everyone would be require to choose between purchasing insurance or paying a penalty fee. If you make a certain amount, below 133% the poverty line, Medicade would be extended to you, so you'd avoid purchasing or penalty.
Over here, it feels like 80% of the people I've talked to are satisfied with the bill. Those who aren't talk a lot about the increase in taxes, death panels, etc... Yet these same people really don't make enough to be negatively effected by the changes. You would think a year of debate would sufficiently educate people on the bill.
That's how stuff in the US usually works. It benefits some, and aggravates others. When Bush was in office, I paid into taxes every year instead of receiving a refund. My dad, on the other hand, made over 100,000 per year, and got a hearty refund each year. He told me "I don't like the guy, but I'm not going to deny that his tax policy directly benefits me."
This year, thanks to legislation introduced last spring, I got a tax credit for going to college, enough that it paid off a semester and a half loan. I finally benefited from a change. That's the way I feel about health care. Some people are going to be taxed more, but that's just the effect of creating a safety net for those who truly need it.
A society should be judged by how well it treats it's least fortunate, not how wealthy it's top 1% is.
There is some debate as to whether or not that can be done legally with an executive order.Quote:
Originally Posted by InternalPrimate
We have Medicaid for those who are poor; why not create another organization for those who cannot get accepted by a health care plan due to preexisting condition?Quote:
Originally Posted by InternalPrimate
Comparing taxes is a difficult thing. I get a decent tax return each year, but that is because I have a lot take out each payday. I used to have more taken out, but I needed that slightly bigger paycheck. Maybe you need to adjust your W-4 withholding in order to avoid having to pay at the end of the year.Quote:
Originally Posted by InternalPrimate
I have no problem with helping those who are less fortunate, "There but for the grace of God, go I." My problem is with those who are less fortunate by choice or those who abuse the system. Just wait until those who now no longer have to pay much, if anything for doctor visits start going to them for every sniffle or sneeze. After all, why not go? Don't cost nothin'.Quote:
Originally Posted by InternalPrimate
JY
So what are you gonna do, then? work up a huge hospital bill you'll never pay? then the hospital has to bear that. The whole reason this is being put in place is because hospitals get slammed with patients that don't have insurance and they can't turn away. I did research on illegal immigrants as part of a business law class and many hospitals around the Mexican border have gone bankrupt due to treating illegal immigrants that couldn't pay. Now, granted, illegals wouldn't pay anyway, but at least these hospitals would be getting funds one way or another. It's a very touchy subject that really requires the decency of people to not abuse the system and to pay the fees they owe for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by beef jerky man
Were you doing work that was filed under 1099 instead of W2 (in other words no taxes withheld)? I was going to receive a few hundred bucks of refund until I put in my Play N Trade 1099 pay (jackass had us all as 1099 workers, which I believe is illegal for regular employees, though I'm not a tax law expert), then all of a sudden I owed money. I pay the government the same either way, it's just a matter if I give it up front or on tax day.Quote:
Originally Posted by InternalPrimate
Your dad probably claimed you as a dependent in addition to writing off his house, etc. and had his taxes withheld all year. Just because you get a refund doesn't mean you weren't ultimately paying more taxes all along.
That's where the problem comes in. I used to be a touchy feely "awww, the poor, they can't help it! they need money!" until I woke up and realized what worthless pieces of shit alot of poor people are. I have no sympathy for someone that picks up a welfare check, walks home, lights up a joint, and sits on his porch all day while everyone else goes to work. I have no problem being taxed for people with real injuries that keep them from working (at least until they are healed sufficiently, such as injuries that require muscular rehab) or for people trying to get through education (I would rather fund education above just about any other tax-based program), but dammed if I'm going to buy crack for an able bodied lazy shithead with a bullshit sob story. I know plenty of people that had horrible events in their childhood that managed to make something of themselves, what is these people's excuses?Quote:
Originally Posted by InternalPrimate
In fact, I have a prime example of system abuse: There's a guy on NESForums.com that just joined and bragged on and on about how big and awesome his sealed NES collection was and how fast he acquired it all and then got annoyed when no one was like "OMGZ, AWESOME!" I basically said "I don't really see what's impressive about spending a bunch of money to amass a big collection" and somehow it slipped out that the dude doesn't even work and gets food stamps and welfare because he took ADD medication as a kid and gets "flashbacks," nevermind he fully demonstrated the ability to post on a forum (with good grammar no less) and make a video of his collection for youtube with decent off-the-cuff narration (calm, collected speech, no signs of any mental issues, better than most youtube reviewers in fact). So, somewhere out there, some assfuck is buying sealed NES stuff by the truckload, but he needs welfare and can't work? Sorry, but for every 1 person that really needs and deserves help, 100 abuse the fuck out of it. Oh, and did I mention this guy has a wife and kid? great example for junior, right?
If you want to turn this around on me, if I lost an arm, I would still work just the same as I do now. I might need a few months off to recuperate, but then I'd get me a lefty mouse (if I lost my right arm) and would get back to work. And, to be honest, if I was so fucked up I couldn't do ANY job, I'd probably rather just as soon die anyway. I'd sign a paper right now to instruct someone to pull the plug if I was permanently confined to a bed with no use of my arms/legs and couldn't speak and was never going to be able to again. Keeping vegetables on life support is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
America needs to bring back the 'fast guns and loose women' mentality.
That is all.
To my European friend's you may not like what I'm about to say but:
America is an individualist society.
Majority of Americans don't give a damn about the poor. I don't care about the poor (17daysolderthannes said it nicely). I don't want my money being used to help other people. I want my money to be used for myself and my family only.
I don't like when government run things (actually for the most part they can't run many things without running into problems). I don't trust government with my money.
Adding in 30+ million people to the insurance pool = road to failure. This bill will make the debt go up even more and the quality will go down.
I understand that people might think this is a right, IMO it is not. Insurance is a product. Noting more, noting less.
If something bad happens to me I don't want help from anyone. I see government as a problem (doesn't matter who runs the White House/Congress both parties are equality worthless).
Now I don't want to hear stories that universal heath care or whatever works in other countries.
This universal heath care thing killed my Uncle in Israel. He had cancer, the heath group panel pretty much told him it is not worth it because the wait time would be over a year to get cancer treatment. Going to see a private doctor in Israel cost three times more than seeing one in the US.
I will say this once again: Reason why there is a big debate about this in the US is because America is an individualist society.
Remember that.
This whole debate comes down to personal ideology, and we all have different views, so it's difficult to approach this subject without offending someone.
I understand the frustration some have with the lower class. I agree with 17days, MANY people take unfair advantage of the system. That still doesn't convince me to take away the safety net that has been built to protect those who truly require it.
I also understand being afraid/against big-government. At the same time, this country was built on basic rights and privileges that must be protected. We all have a right to live a healthy life, and in my opinion, the government should step in if that right is being taken away. Remember, the Health Care Reform bill isn't only about universal health care, but also regulating the practices of insurance companies. No longer will insurance companies be able to stop coverage if you get a disease. Stop and think about how unfair it was before. They'll take you're money, until you actually need them.
Accountability is what you're getting here, you're already paying for it anyway.
Well indeed we are an individualistic society.
However, we also have many federal services and programs that collectively benefit all citizens, paid for by our taxes but which are otherwise "free," like mandatory public education (through high school), and services from police, firemen, disaster workers, etc. Also for those of qualifying age / background etc. there are the Medicare and Medicaid programs. These services don't really get debated much, but imo they are all just as "socialist" or more so than Obama's health care reform.
The whole thing is 1300 pages of good intentions that likely won't mix well with reality. Do any of you think the government will actually be able to make this work well? Look how they messed up Medicade, Social Security and the USPS. Is it constitutional to FORCE people into buying insurance? I don't think so. It is not like car insurance where you can choose not to own a car and drive. If you are alive and have a job, you MUST buy health insurance. It penalizes the worker for being alive and the small business owner for hiring employees.
Wow. I've been and done a little research, and found this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ld_Map.svg.png
The coloured bits indicate countries that have universal health care in one form or another. From the look of things, America is in the same health care position as fucking Africa, yet - look at that coloured-in spot in Iraq - guess who's providing them with UHC? The American government is literally giving more comprehensive health coverage to a country it has invaded and occupied than its own citizens.
Actually, education, police, and fire are handled at the state or local level. As for disaster workers, are you talking about FEMA? If so, that would come under the requirement for the federal gov't to provide for the defense of the nation. Also, Medicare and Medicaid are not mandatory. The taxing for it is, but not participation. And don't believe that there aren't people out there who believe that those programs aren't socialistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecco
JY
Actually, that colored in spot is known as Kuwait.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elusive
http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/me.htm
JY
Funny, here in Uruguay, we have free public medical service since forever, its free, but if you get sick of something more serious and want a good service you will have to pay for private medical service, the Public Health Service has been left in ruins by the capitalist governments of the past, just now with the introduction of the current communist/socialist government things are getting better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elusive
I like how you included the USPS in there :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Redifer
I'm not at all implying that I think the government will make this work well. But it's something. Something is more than nothing. And from what the owner of my workplace tells me, the actual penalty tax on small business owners is smaller than what it would cost to insure employees, so it'll be interesting to see if places like where I work drop employee insurance to go in the cheaper direction.
I don't beleive that requiring an individual to purchase insurance is a negative thing simply because it can only benefit them in the long run. I'm also probably the only guy on this board who thinks the only way to ever get this country out of debt is to raise taxes, be they income and/or sales, and I'm ok with that. Most European nations have higher income taxes for the very reason of universal health care, so this "force to buy" concept is all over.
I don't mind paying into a better way of living. I also like Xbox Live. Call me crazy :p
@JY:
Well sure education, police, and fire are handled at the state or local level, but the fed. govt. does mandate that states / cities provide these services and programs, right? For example it's federally mandated for each child to receive a tax-paid public education.
...I know that participation in Medicare/aid is not mandatory, only the taxing is; I was just mentioning them as established programs that still somewhat resemble socialist programs, yet I don't think these things are generally controversial. The health care reform is explosively controversial, while I think it's more or less just as "socialist" as Medicare/aid and other things that most people take for granted as normal and OK.
And of course some people see all these things as socialist / fascist, but it wouldn't really be the majority of people. Most folks don't really question established things like public education, tax-paid health care for the elderly, etc.
I think in time the socialist / fascist stigma will fall away for most people, and they'll just see it as another normal detail of American life.
Hm. Looks like I've mistaken Saudi Arabia for Iraq. Slip of the 'tongue'...? Has to be it. *facepalm*Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy Yakapucci
...My point still stands, though. That's a lot of places where the Government regulates health care in one way or another - it's pretty much every single first world country. I mean, if fucking Australia, where every single fucking native species wants you to fucking die, can implement universal health care somehow, it has to be a big 'plus'.
Puerto Rico has universal health care, and we're a territory. The U.S. really dragged its feet with this.
Don't even get me started on federal unfunded mandates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecco
Such as the increase in state funding for Medicaid under the new health care law. How many states have budgets that can absorb this increased demand? Oh yeah, that's right, there are a couple states that don't have to pay the new increase. Can you say Louisiana Purchase, Cornhusker Kickback, and I can't remember the other one of the top of my head. Although Nancy Pelosi swears that these special deals are going to be removed.
I won't even mention Social Security being the world's largest Ponzi scheme.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecco
Most people also don't really care what goes on outside of their own little world as long as they are okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecco
I seriously hope not. Also, normal does not mean 'right'. Besides, this is not just about health care. It is about the gov't's ability to take control over different parts of our lives. They have grabbed health care, a couple of the major auto makers, some of the largest financial institutions, and now they want to have more control over executive pay in companies that did not take any of the TARP money. Where does it end? How much control is too much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecco
JY
The US drags it's feet with everything.
The culture of self entitlement, and the lack of a fearful governance has really flushed the toilet on living standards.
It's only ironic that people who fear welfare abuse, fear it because of the same inherent self entitlement that makes up the american lifestyle.
Canadians have a very different culture. That's not to say we're much different from Americans, but we do have a deep contrast on some fundamental issues that still seem ridiculous when discussed. Here, our motto is "Peace, order and good government" for a reason.
Regulation is your only salvation.
I am not sure what you mean by 'fearful governance'. Do you mean a gov't that is feared by the people or one that fears the people?Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
Once again, I am confused. It seems to me that many of the people committing the welfare abuse are those that have the self entitlement mentality. Unless, of course, we are thinking of two different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
My feelings are that since the gov't is taking my money to help others, then I am entitled to have them use it responsibly to help those that truly deserve it.
I think that this phrase is the scariest thing that I have read today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
JY
A government that fears the people.
I was referring to those who blanket this reform as a bad choice, because of the abusers leeching tax dollars off those who would rather not pay for it because they don't need it.
Entitlement to know how the money is being spent should be fundamental. Government spending should be transparent & in a perfect world those who need it would be the only ones getting it.
The reality is, that unless the government steps up now to stop the 'Rape' that is the current insurance industry, the country will bleed to death.
Deregulation over the past few decades is why the USA dug it's own grave and jumped in to begin with.
Regulation of key industries vital to the standard of living is exactly why Canada survived the financial crisis in relatively unscathed with a strong economy.
No government is perfect, but having 'No government' is obviously not working out for you. ;)