How "ancient" was the Genesis really?

By ancient, I mean as the years went on while it was supported, how fast did it become obsolete? Even then, I've heard things about how the Genesis was dated even from when it was designed, are these claims true in any way?

I ask this not only because of things I've heard, but with these thoughts in my head, it makes me question the Genesis as I see it connected to the Sega CD and 32X. I guess having a Model 1 doesn't help either, it looks a tad old compared to the slick Model 2. :?

I guess what I mean by this is, was the Genesis a little too "old" or "ill designed" to support add-ons in any way?

Your avatar..........is it........smirking?

Back on-topic, at the time of the Genesis' release, there was already superior hardware being used on coin-ops. Sega itself had been utilizing 16-Bit hardware in its coin-ops since 1985, with "Hang-On" and "Space Harrier". Their "System 16" arcade board, which the Genny hardware was supposedly based on, was one of their more basic set-ups (compared to the hardware which powered their "scaling" games, i.e After Burner, Thunder Blade, Galaxy Force, which had upwards of 2-3 CPUs and VDPs working in parallel) yet even it had the Genny hardware beat in color palette, VDP, and sound capabilities.

As far as home consoles go, the Genesis was up there back in 1988-1989, but was challenged with the release of the Neo-Geo and Super Famicom (SNES) in 1990 and afterwards. After the TG-16 died out it was the weakest system of its generation.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

By ancient, I mean as the years went on while it was supported, how fast did it become obsolete? Even then, I've heard things about how the Genesis was dated even from when it was designed, are these claims true in any way?

It really depends ont he context of outdated. The PC Engine was superior in some respects (though many of those advantages also applied over the SNES), but not in other. If you mean in general compared to contemporaries, it was more limited, but like any design it's a matter of trade-offs.

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I ask this not only because of things I've heard, but with these thoughts in my head, it makes me question the Genesis as I see it connected to the Sega CD and 32X. I guess having a Model 1 doesn't help either, it looks a tad old compared to the slick Model 2. :?

Model 1 eh: I think the M1 looks a little awesome compared to the model 2, not outdated . :p

As for the CD and 32x... Well the the 32x is a bigger issue in general, but on the CD: it added a lot more hardware than necessary for a simple CD drive (compared to NEC's), but unfortunately the expansion port crippled it's ability to properly expand the unit: well bottlenecks with the VDP as well as the expansion interface crippled it.
If the Genesis had a PC-Engine like expansion port, that wouldn't have been an issue (ironic as NEC never took advantage of that -they probably could have released supergrafx as an add-on or built-in to the CD unit).
Still, they probably could have gotten around that my using the cartridge port for the CD... then there would probably have never been a 32x, the Sega CD would have been more successful (and had better looking and smoother graphics as well as FMV)...

I don't think the Sega CD is particular evidence of the MD being outdated though, in the sense of Sega feeling it needed an upgrade (they wanted to get into the CD market like NEC). It really highlights some of the key limitations of the Design though. I think Sega may have been trying to one up NEC's CD (and possibly the SNES too) with the added hardware to make up for the later release of the CD (NEC had their CD in 1988, only about a year after the PC engine was released, the MD came that year too, but MCD came in '91) I suppose they could have gone with a minimalistic MCD more like NEC's super CD perhaps -thus catering to the expansion port's limitations. (just a CD drive and controller with a bit of cache/buffer and 256 kB of RAM and a CD-DAC, possibly basic audio expansion like NEC had)

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I guess what I mean by this is, was the Genesis a little too "old" or "ill designed" to support add-ons in any way?

Yes, and no. There's a lot of things they could have done differently to facilitate expansion better, some obvious with hindsight, others seem liek they should have been fairly evident in the mid 80s even, and some things don't much effect expansion, but still seem odd and inefficient. (like PSRAM for the 68k or the unconnected IRQ line on the YM2612)
Regardless, the Cartridge port still provides enough connetions to provide a rather comprehensive interface, the Sega CD could have done liek the 32x did for video expansion. (separate display controller with simple framebuffer with video overlay to the Genesis)

I'm sure some sacrifices and compromises were made to enable SMS compatibility at reasonable cost though. The Z80 really isn't necessary otherwise (as long as the IRQ line was connected), same for the Z80's RAM. By previous comments from Tomaitheous, the MD VDP appears to be unrelated to the SMS VDP overall, and a chunk of the MD VDP is likely dedicated to supplying backwards compatibility: This likely contributed to the choice of a 9-bit RGB palette (rather than 12-bit with 4,096 colors rather than 512) and the limited number of subpalettes (4 compared to 16 on the SNES and 32 on the PC Engine).

Things that could have helped expansion would have been either planning to use the cartridge port for expansion, or putting many more signals on the expansion port, namely YS and the video timing signals (audio is already there, though not always connected), the analog RGB lines might also be desireable (for 32x-liek video expansion). However, another missed opportunity was connecting the unused buses on the VDP to the expansion port: this could have allowed for VRAM expansion (though that would take a lot of pins), but in particular there's a pixel/color bus which could have been used for a number of enhancements. (chilly willy suggested feeding that bus into a chip to accumulate the pixels into a 256 color display of 1/2 the resolution -combined with another genesis VDP, that could allow the full resolution at 256 color palettes or more layers like the supergrafx)

Without VRAM expansion there's still significant limitations on VDP updates, but it would take about 31 pins to provide another full VRAM bank. Adding another 64 kB of VRAM in '88 would have been costly, but another option could have been to allow the 64 kB to be configured as 2 32 kB banks optionally, thus eliminating the problem for games opting for that mode. (the trade-off is halving VRAM space)

The SNES also has some limitations, including VRAM and DMA limits (I'm not very familiar with them though, and even my understanding of the MD is rather general and limited).
I do know that the SNES, like the Genesis, cannot update VRAM during active display (only in VBLANK -not sure about what hblank is used for), the PC Engine doesn't have this limitation, and neither would the Genesis with dual VRAM banks.
The SNES may have had provisions for expansion on the cartridge slot, but the extensive port Hudson put on the PC Engine really seems like the most capable of the 3. (and also the least expanded ironically -again, they probably could have done supergrafx as an add-on, the video signals and address lines should all be there)

Edit: sorry for the rambling, I tend to get a bit carried away with some of the speculation, hopefully you can skim through and find the important bits. ;)

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Originally Posted by Aarzak

Back on-topic, at the time of the Genesis' release, there was already superior hardware being used on coin-ops. Sega itself had been utilizing 16-Bit hardware in its coin-ops since 1985, with "Hang-On" and "Space Harrier". Their "System 16" arcade board, which the Genny hardware was supposedly based on, was one of their more basic set-ups

There was almost always arcade hardware more powerful than contemporary home consoles (though that began to change somewhat in the 5th generation).
That's not in contention. However, the MD being based on the System-16 is a myth, at least as far as the hardware is concerned. It may have been a goal for the MD to be able to support decent conversions from the system 16, but the hardware is not fundamentally related. The System 16 is more powerful generally and would likely have cost a fair bit more if adapted into a home console (even if cut-down a bit), though likely a fair bit cheaper than the Neo Geo.

I think Sega introduced a number of 16-bit arcade boards around the same time. Looking at: http://www.system16.com/museum.php?id=1
There's the "pre system 16," Space Harrier, Out Run, and System 16A hardware all introduced in 1985.

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(compared to the hardware which powered their "scaling" games, i.e After Burner, Thunder Blade, Galaxy Force, which had upwards of 2-3 CPUs and VDPs working in parallel) yet even it had the Genny hardware beat in color palette, VDP, and sound capabilities.

Hmm I'm not entirely sure what the multiple CPUs were necessary for (in some cases, it seems to be that one CPU is only used to boot the system), but the dedicated scaling hardware should be handling that. (if there's some CPU overhead that might be what the added CPUs are for)
Of course, the scaling hardware dates back to '85 as well, albeit more primitive than the X and Y superscaler boards. (the System 32 was pretty scaling oriented as well)

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As far as home consoles go, the Genesis was up there back in 1988-1989, but was challenged with the release of the Neo-Geo and Super Famicom (SNES) in 1990 and afterwards. After the TG-16 died out it was the weakest system of its generation.

The Neo Geo is an arcade system repackaged as a home system, and a quite expensive one that that... I wouldn't consider it to be in the same market as the SNES or MD, it had it's own deluxe high-end niche market.
The System 16 likely would have cost much less to do such with. (I don't think it had to use as much ROM or as many banks, plus its a fair bit older)

Otherwise I think I already addressed everything in my previous post.

It's soo ancient, one of my Genesis' has turned to dust already :(

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

It's soo ancient, one of my Genesis' has turned to dust already :(

:lol:

All we are... is dust in the wind, dude.

The Genesis still has new games coming out for it. Sounds like the exact opposite of "ancient" to me. ;)

Any case -- my best friend growing up had the SNES, and the damned thing was forced down my throat on many an occasion. The first time that we had, by some slip of fate, a GENESIS magically appear in his home, it was a real eye-opener for me. "Now this is what I've been waiting for!", I thought. And the rest, ladies and gentlemen, is history...

Remember: You're only as old as you feel.

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Originally Posted by CMA Death Adder

The Genesis still has new games coming out for it. Sounds like the exact opposite of "ancient" to me. ;)

Well the VCS still has games being made for it, some with "official" releases. (produced in cart form and sold) ;)

At the time it was still supported it had the very same 'flaws' that people still complain about today:

not that many colors on screen at once
just one PCM channel for voices and drums

Although back in 1988 when it was released it offered more colors than any other comparable hardware, aside of arcade machines and workstations obviously. VGA (320x240 @ 256 colors) slowly gained in popularity during the early 90s, but many PC games I played still were EGA (320×200 @ 16 colors).

And one PCM channel was okay for 1988. Games had to be squeezed into tiny 2 Mbit ROMs anyway, so most games at the time used FM rather than PCM for drums.

The Mega Drive's strengths are:

extremely powerful modern 32-bit CPU (using a 16-bit interface) plus 8-bit co-processor
best 'real' (non-PCM based) sound chip in any console, aside of Saturn (which was rarely used, see Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Legend of Oasis / Story of Thor 2)
pretty capable VDP (aside of the color issues obviously)
highest video resolution of any console until Saturn (480i/576i) and Dreamcast (480p) [guess you could list this under 'pretty capable VDP' also]

All in all the Mega Drive is a nearly flawless machine. It blew away anything that came before it and thanks to its strengths could easily compete with machines that were introduced many years later.

A while back I did write a short essay on how I think Nintendo tried to tackle this beast:

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Personally I think that the design of the SNES, Super Famicom actually, is a masterpiece. They did a truly fantastic job with it.

They kept some things similar to the NES/Famicom (CPU, screen resolution) which would allow developers a smoother transition - from both the NES/Famicom and the PC Engine.

They addressed all the Mega Drive's issues (colors, voice samples, controller) and with Mode 7 even beat Sega at their own game: Just compare Space Harrier II, which was one of two launch games for the Mega Drive, with F-Zero, one of the games that accompanied the launch of the Super Famicom in Japan...

They also gave it a unique soft design in grey instead of the Mega Drive's black::
http://vc.sega.jp/images/about_md.jpg http://www.axess.com/twilight/console/detail/sfc3.jpg

And they knew that for sound the only thing they could possibly do to compete with FM was to switch to samples instead.

For the time that was a very clever idea and provided both game designers and customers with something new, but I think that in the review it's the machine's main flaw.

If by ancient you mean Older then ones self, then yes, the Mega Drive is ancient to me.

But age isn't a bad thing, age can be viewed as a measure of maturity.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

At the time it was still supported it had the very same 'flaws' that people still complain about today:

not that many colors on screen at once
just one PCM channel for voices and drums

You're forgetting software mixing of multiple PCM channels. The lack of the interrupt line connection to the YM2612 is an unecessary detriment though and an odd oversight...

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Although back in 1988 when it was released it offered more colors than any other comparable hardware, aside of arcade machines and workstations obviously. VGA (320x240 @ 256 colors) slowly gained in popularity during the early 90s, but many PC games I played still were EGA (320×200 @ 16 colors).

Wow, you totally overlooked the Amiga...

Well that and the PC-Engine and Sharp X68000 in Japan. (several home computers had 256 color bitmap modes, but they were generally too weak to make good use of them for games -PC8801 and MSX2 -no blitter and fairly slow 8-bit CPUs)

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The Mega Drive's strengths are:

extremely powerful modern 32-bit CPU (using a 16-bit interface) plus 8-bit co-processor

It's a 16-bit CPU, I was corrected on this before... 32-bit registers and some 32-bit instructions (granted several 8-bit CPUs are capable of 16-bit operations), 32-bit flat address model (only 24-bits connected), but only a 16-bit ALU, which is generally the deciding factor.
As for power it wasn't really that hugely advanced, well it was when it was brand new, but not so much by the late 80s. A clean, well organized design (especially compared to contemporaries like the 8086), but not magical. ;)

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best 'real' (non-PCM based) sound chip in any console, aside of Saturn

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

You're forgetting software mixing of multiple PCM channels.

Good point, but I did not forget. I just think that it is not hardware related.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Wow, you totally overlooked the Amiga...

Well that and the PC-Engine and Sharp X68000 in Japan.

No, aside of the X68000, none of them does support more than 32 colors on screen. Mega Drive does 64.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Hmm, I think some would argue for the PC-Engine. ;)

Well, okay. Others would prefer the NES or C64 perhaps, but I think without the nostalgia involved there's just no comparison.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

While SNES's 512 width (and interlace) mode is a rather non-issue (MD interlace is also pretty much a non-issue), the PC engine supported 256, ~320, and 512 wide modes.

There are no games that use these modes.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Atari 7800 also supported 320 wide

I don't think any games used that mode. Here's how a typical 7800 game looks like:

http://www.atariage.com/7800/screens...Warriors_5.png

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

as did the Jaguar (and higher), 3DO, CD32. (all pre-saturn)

Unlike Saturn, neither console had any games that did not just use the regular 320x240 resolution (or lower). Same goes for PS1 btw. Only Saturn, N64, and later consoles used 480i in any significant number of games.

... Actually, I cannot even think of one N64 game that ran at 480i.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Why are you overlooking the PC Engine?
And past dedicated consoles there is, again, the Amiga...

Yeah, those are great machines that could hold up rather well. I did not forget them. Perhaps it didn't blow them away as much as I made it sound in my previous post but I do think that the MD has the better hardware. There are some advantages both of them have over the MD though, like the less restrictive use of palettes.

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... Actually, I cannot even think of one N64 game that ran at 480i.

Perfect Dark can, if you really want it to. However, when you do have it in "hi-res" mode, you see the main reason why most N64 games didn't, namely the always terrible framerate made even worse

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No, aside of the X68000, none of them does support more than 32 colors on screen. Mega Drive does 64.

Ehh? The PC-Engine can show up to 481 colors onscreen without any tricks. It has 32 subpalettes VS the Genesis 4.

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There are no games that use these modes.

For the SNES or the PC-Engine? For the SNES, Secret if Mana (and the prequel) used it in places. For PC-Engine, it's 256, 344, 512. Only a few games uses 512pixel mode (Sherlock Holmes FMV CD used it for video), but quite a few games used the 344 pixel mode.

For the record, Neo Geo's 320 mode isn't really that. They use a even 6mhz dot clock, so that res is much more closer to 256. Genesis 320pixel mode is a higher res than the Neo Geo's.

I agree that the '2612 introduced was pretty big leap for game consoles (1988) in the sound department. Though not so much, if at all, for Japanese computers at the time. But I'd still put it just right below the SNES, and only for a very small/few specific reasons. Musicians (outside of gaming) where searching for new and customizable sounds in the late 70's - early 80's and synthesizers would provided just this. In the gaming world, around the 16bit generation - the trend in video game music was to get as close to real instruments as possible. With whatever method you could use for modeling them. 2612 came close for a lot of sounds, but the SNES achieved a much closer result overall. By then PCE had already moved to CD, so there was no reason or need to get a such a synth chip. Probably why the PCE sound isn't more than what it is. The PCE CD unit was displayed back in 1987 before the PCE even came out, so they were already thinking in terms of the addon. But, I digress..