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I think i have a 2 or 3 button pad for amiga, but i donīt remember, it was near 20 years ago.. :)Quote:
A big part of that is the single button joystick, isn't it?
The problem in amiga SF2 port, is like in PC, unplayable because low fps, and bad movement
For half bright, you enable 6 bit plane mode. It doesn't increase the "palette" like shadow/highlight does - but it does increase the number of colors on screen. But you have to set the palette entries to be specific. So you limit what master palette colors you use, so half bright plane can select the master palette color that's one step below that - in order to use more colors onscreen. I'll not bother with a big explanation of how this works, but I can tell you it's much more flexible than than shadow/highlight. But it does has the side of effect of using more ram and possibly cutting into the CPU bus access a little more.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
And as far as the 65k palette thing on the neo geo, yes. It effects the whole palette. Think of it like shadow mode of the Genesis, except you don't use any layers - you just enable the bit for the whole frame. So practically useless. The Neo Geo does has two sets of 256 subpalettes though. You can only use one set at a time, but you can switch between the two at any time (including mid screen). 256 is an ungodly amount. And I thought 32 for the PCE was a lot. Man...
How ancient was the Genesis??
Well, I first played it I guess in 1993, after I played Super Mario World - thought it was on Genesis, so we got one.
I realized it wasn't what turned out to be a Super Nintendo, was slightly disappointed, but I always thought the graphics on Genesis games were better.
I always thought the 6 button controller was better than the Super NES controller.
It didn't seem like an ancient system to me, Nintendo obviously has lasted longer in the console business with a better reputation, so that's where I feel all the "Genesis was a crappy system" hype comes from.
Would it be useful for reloading palettes mid-screen (does the Neo Geo have problems with that like the Genesis does -garbage pixels)?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
When the Mega Drive was released it wasn't as revolutionary as the PC Engine had been as the first 16-bit console, nor as big a deal as the Famicom was back in 1983. Regardless of anyone's preferences, it's fair to say that the pros/cons or strengths/weaknesses of both the pre-existing PC Engine and the Mega Drive more or less made them equal. So the Mega Drive pretty much debuted as par for the generation.
But within a month of the release of the Mega Drive, the PC Engine got it's first CD-ROM games. Considering how popular they became in Japan and how the Mega Drive never took off their, it could be argued that the MD became ancient pretty quick in the eyes of Japanese.
My first comment could also be said about the Super Famicom though. It came out another two years after the Mega Drive, close to a full console generation cycle after the PC Engine and once again the end result is a game experience about on par with the PCE and MD.
In the end the three 16-bit consoles all held their own against each other in regards to the quality of the output of actual games. Theoretical ability doesn't mean anything to a console's worth since it's primary purpose is to play games.
It could also be argued that the 16-bit console generation in general was weak and all three consoles were ancient in the grand scheme of things if you compare the jump in types of gameplay and aesthetic experience leading into the previous and future generation. 16-bit console games played similar to and looked/sounded like enhanced 8-bit games, but NES and SMS games were much more advanced compared to Atai/Intv/Colleco games. Just the same, the leap in 2D quality and new 3D experiences provided by the Saturn/PSX/N64 over the 16-bit consoles is also much greater.
And there hasn't been a generation gap since.
lol
Genesis hardware in the early 90s was no worse than Commodore 64 hardware of the early 80s.
I actually desided on wanting a Genesis after I use to play it at friends house who had Street Fighter II and Eternal Champions. I already had a NES, and was madly in love with Super Mario Bros 3, so I didn't get care for the SuperNES. I wanted a SEGA console, I had a Game Gear since 1992, got my first Genesis for Christmas of 1993. Sonic 2 was my first game I played. :)
Less than 2 years later I would get a SEGA CD, experience FMV gaming for the first time with Sewer Shark, man I love that game. and eventually got a 32X.
It does, like almost all other consoles. Though, in the Genesis case - the graphics glitches are delayed and can be seen across the screen. Where most systems just have it as a little side bar artifact on... the side of the screen (if the data to the palette ram wasn't written fast enough). I.e. if you can update fast enough during offscreen parts, you won't see artifact (PCE, NES, SNES, etc. IIRC, SMS too).Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
I think that the jump from 32-bit to DC/PS2/GC/Xbox was also substantial, but the current generation is to the previous what 16-bit was to 8-bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by PimpUigi
I disagree.
The NES was a little power house but it had only a very few colors on screen and character sprites were pixelated two color things that often barely looked like what they were supposed to resemble.
Granted that they did expand on the original hardware which was designed at a time when games took place on a single static screen, but once there were more than a few sprites on screen, things started to flicker like hell.
The SG-1000 was even more limited but they kept expanding on the hardware via compatible machines such as the Mark III in 1985, the Master System in 1987 (which featured built-in FM sound), and eventually the Mega Drive in 1988.
Technical advancement always is more of an evolution than a revolution if you consider the PC Engine CD-ROM, Super Famicom's Mode 7 or the 3DO.
However, the Mega Drive marked a phenomenal step in evolution in that it could display a load of bg layers and very detailed sprites, all in 320x224, a resolution which would not be topped until the introduction of the Saturn (and years later with Dreamcast).
The Mega Drive's YM2612 was also way more advanced than the Master System's 2413, although both were FM based.
Not to mention the 68k which was quite a beast.
The Famicom was revolutionary in Japan and more advanced than North American contemporaries (in several, but not all respects), but generally not a big leap from what was out in the west as far as consoles and home computers went. It's just that Japan had next to nothing for home consoles up to then (there were some, but rather primitive and unsuccessful -aside from pong clones). Sega released it's dated SG-1000 on the same day (albeit at least it was reliable) and Atari released the repackaged 2800 in Japan. (had Atari pushed a release 2-3 years sooner Nintendo might have had some established competition to deal with -opposed to fellow newcomer Sega)Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
And as you say: the SFC NEVER got any CD-ROM games... (and the Sega CD was considerably more advanced, though it's arguable whether that provided a net benefit -due to the bottlenecked nature, limited use by developers and added cost -probably also contributed to a later release date too)Quote:
But within a month of the release of the Mega Drive, the PC Engine got it's first CD-ROM games. Considering how popular they became in Japan and how the Mega Drive never took off their, it could be argued that the MD became ancient pretty quick in the eyes of Japanese.
In some cases the color differences are pretty noticeable as well as some cases of using more than 2 scroll layers, plus less sprite flicker/drop out. (then there's other things, like mode 7)Quote:
My first comment could also be said about the Super Famicom though. It came out another two years after the Mega Drive, close to a full console generation cycle after the PC Engine and once again the end result is a game experience about on par with the PCE and MD.
Compare MSX(1) or SG-1000 games and you see what might have later come out on the CV given time (grated some wouldn't work without expanded RAM). Then there's Pitfall 2 (for one example), which has roughly comparable difference between average NES games and NES vs 4th gen consoles. (SMS is a bit of a different case, though the hardware was 2 years newer) The 5200 is even closer to the NES if you compare some later A8-bit games. (many of which can work in 16 kB of RAM for cartridges -more for disk obviously)Quote:
were much more advanced compared to Atai/Intv/Colleco games. Just the same, the leap in 2D quality and new 3D experiences provided by the Saturn/PSX/N64 over the 16-bit consoles is also much greater.
If you compare "on screen" in the same way the MD has "64 colors" then the NES has 32 colors. (8x 4-color palettes)Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Tiles and sprites are 4 color, not 2 (technically sprites are limited to 3 colors due to transparent being needed -unless you had a rectangular sprite)
Of course, if you include the SMS in the 8-bits, that's less of an extreme step to. (16-color palettes, albeit only 2, and only 1 used for sprites) And the Mk.III came out the same year as the ST and Amiga.
Plenty of Pre-NES (or pre famicom) games already did that, for VCS/CV/IV games it was usually done with page flipping rather than scrolling, but there were some examples of scrolling too (even smooth in the case of vertical scrolling in Pitfall II on VCS and CV), and, of course, hardware scrolling was a feature of the A8/5200. (off the top of my head: ET Phone Home of 1982 had 2-axis scrolling) Of course, the C64 followed that too.Quote:
Granted that they did expand on the original hardware which was designed at a time when games took place on a single static screen, but once there were more than a few sprites on screen, things started to flicker like hell.
I think 3DO fits more in revolutionary in that respect. (unless you compare PCs or arcade of course, but home consoles and popular home computers were a different level than 3DO -if stronger with 2D in some cases)Quote:
Technical advancement always is more of an evolution than a revolution if you consider the PC Engine CD-ROM, Super Famicom's Mode 7 or the 3DO.
We've gone over this already: for home computers Amiga is higher (320x256 PAL standard low-res compared to 320x240 -not including interlace for either -not sure if many Amiga games used interlace anyway)Quote:
However, the Mega Drive marked a phenomenal step in evolution in that it could display a load of bg layers and very detailed sprites, all in 320x224, a resolution which would not be topped until the introduction of the Saturn (and years later with Dreamcast).
I believe some 3DO games were done in 320x480i too. (pre-saturn)
Then there's the PC Engine, of course. (even more detailed sprites practical due to lesser palette limitations, etc)
True, but there wasn't much FM that wasn't more advanced than the YM2413, it was the cut-down low-cost version of the already low-cost OPL2 (successor to the low-cost OPL), all of which had 9 2-op FM channels. (OPL2 had more waveforms than the OPL and OPLL only allows 1 user defined instrument at a time)Quote:
The Mega Drive's YM2612 was also way more advanced than the Master System's 2413, although both were FM based.
Still, the 2612 is nice and compared to the earlier (and arcade standard) YM2151, it had a built-in DAC and stereo output (with hard panning), compared to the mono YM2151. (though it has 6 4-op channels to the 2151's 8) The 8-bit PC8801 Japanese home computer of course had a YM2203 stock since 1985 (3 SSG plus 3 4-op FM), in fact the first of the OPN series which the YM2612 is a member. By '87 the PC8801 had the YM2608 (which the 2612 is a cut-down derivative of) adding stereo, 3 more 4-op channels, 6 percussion/rhythm channels, and an ADPCM channel. (up to 16 kHz) The latter is a rather high-end chip though and used a huge 64-pin DIP. (like the 68k)
And, of course the superiority of the YM2612+PSG in the genesis over the PC Engine's sound is arguable to some degree.
And, the PCE's 7.16 MHz 65C02 derivative could be argued to be faster in some cases. (and has in some previous discussion -probably moreso for being more cost effective --I really do wonder why Nintendo opted for the 65816 derivative instead -it would have made a lot more sense if said custom derivative had used a full pin package without multiplexed address line -requiring 2x as fast memory)Quote:
Not to mention the 68k which was quite a beast.
Still in general, to the average non-hardcore player the games overall were comparable. I don't think that mode 7 type stuff made the SNES, but the Sega-CD had games that outdid any mode 7 or polygonal graphics on the SNES. Either way pseudo 3D games weren't overly popular or prevalent during the 16-bit generation.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
To put it into perspective, the Jaguar, 3DO and 32X were all "ancient" as 32-bit class machines by the time the Saturn and Playstation rolled out. The difference in games overall between 16-bit consoles is minimal in comparison.
More than just PCM though. Genesis is playing back static samples, Amiga is frequency scaling them per channel. IIRC, 28khz is the max for the early models (why it's not 31.5khz, I'm not sure). But it's divided like PSG on the Genesis. It basically has an audio resolution of 3.58mhz (they list 7.159mhz as the master clock, but that's immediately divided by two before the period system kicks in). It's not like the SNES, which uses a phase accumulator system and interpolates for samples less than the max frequency (32khz). Yamaha is doing phase accumulation too on the 2612, but I don't know of any digital filtering going on (although I could be wrong), which means more aliasing from the stepping - so it needs that high output clock (50+khz). So the Genesis and SNES aren't technically as high resolution stepping as the Amiga (excluding the Genesis PSG). Technically, because I don't know what frequency limitation the amp is filtering by itself on the audio (takes time to switch or adjust the amplified output VS the input). Though, I'd guess it's above 60khz with A500 filtering turned off (man, it sounds terrible when enabled).Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
To me, the big draw back to the Paula setup, is the tiny amount of channels. Not enough for FX and music. If you do, do both - something has got to give (you resort to beat loops, or just 3 channels). Not totally un-doable, but definitely not as flexible either. Of course, we're talking about the original Amigas, right? Cause there are a whole slew of options/versions/setups.
My personal opinion that the Genesis audio setup beats the stock Amiga setup most of the time. I say most, 'cause there are exceptions. Midnight Resistance... is not one of those exceptions :P
Mr. Follin is quite the badass indeed :) His SNES stuff is just as impressive though (well, spiderman game music he did. That's all I've heard from him). But man, that is a badass tune (both technically and composition).Quote:
Tim Follin's Time Trax (recorded via model 2)
On the Amiga filtering: were the filters all user controllable? (wiki mentions that there's an optional 12 dB/oct 3.3 kHz low-pass filter, but also that there's a 6 dB/oct 4.5-5 kHz low-pass filter on pre A1200 models too)
Tim Follin's definitely got some interesting stuff. Neat Ghouls and Ghost conversion for the ST. (I think the speccy may have used one of the same tracks for its intro -same chip after all) I don't care too much for the replaced level 1 stage music though. (it's not bad, but it doesn't fit that well)
Neat use of PWM on Chronos for the speccy too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz46pCROkjM
Hey, the Spider Man/X-Men music on the Genesis and SNES both used Follin's arrangements.
Kind of ironic that he was doing the Genesis Time Trax soundtrack which was canceled while the SNES release had horribly bland music. (and only a few tracks)
One other note on the SNES's sound though: in addition to a fair amount of orchestral tracks, there seem to be a lot of games that use samples of FM instruments for the main in-game instruments. Capcom in particular comes to mind, with a number of their games (especially the Disney ones) sounding a lot like some of their YM2151 arcade games (ghosts n goblins and ghouls n ghost come to mind). The Mega Man X games use a lot of sampled instruments too, but seems to use a fair amount of FM samples (or very much like FM) and overall compositions which would convert quite well to FM synthesis. (MD in particular -though I also get the feeling that they'd fit rather well on the PC-Engine in some cases)
Like these fine examples? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPS7ExajroM&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kes7RQFnzk4