How "ancient" was the Genesis really?

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04-17-2010, 10:32 PM
Guntz

How "ancient" was the Genesis really?

By ancient, I mean as the years went on while it was supported, how fast did it become obsolete? Even then, I've heard things about how the Genesis was dated even from when it was designed, are these claims true in any way?

I ask this not only because of things I've heard, but with these thoughts in my head, it makes me question the Genesis as I see it connected to the Sega CD and 32X. I guess having a Model 1 doesn't help either, it looks a tad old compared to the slick Model 2. :?

I guess what I mean by this is, was the Genesis a little too "old" or "ill designed" to support add-ons in any way?
04-17-2010, 10:54 PM
Aarzak

Your avatar..........is it........smirking?

Back on-topic, at the time of the Genesis' release, there was already superior hardware being used on coin-ops. Sega itself had been utilizing 16-Bit hardware in its coin-ops since 1985, with "Hang-On" and "Space Harrier". Their "System 16" arcade board, which the Genny hardware was supposedly based on, was one of their more basic set-ups (compared to the hardware which powered their "scaling" games, i.e After Burner, Thunder Blade, Galaxy Force, which had upwards of 2-3 CPUs and VDPs working in parallel) yet even it had the Genny hardware beat in color palette, VDP, and sound capabilities.

As far as home consoles go, the Genesis was up there back in 1988-1989, but was challenged with the release of the Neo-Geo and Super Famicom (SNES) in 1990 and afterwards. After the TG-16 died out it was the weakest system of its generation.
04-17-2010, 11:51 PM
kool kitty89

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guntz

By ancient, I mean as the years went on while it was supported, how fast did it become obsolete? Even then, I've heard things about how the Genesis was dated even from when it was designed, are these claims true in any way?

It really depends ont he context of outdated. The PC Engine was superior in some respects (though many of those advantages also applied over the SNES), but not in other. If you mean in general compared to contemporaries, it was more limited, but like any design it's a matter of trade-offs.

Quote:

I ask this not only because of things I've heard, but with these thoughts in my head, it makes me question the Genesis as I see it connected to the Sega CD and 32X. I guess having a Model 1 doesn't help either, it looks a tad old compared to the slick Model 2. :?

Model 1 eh: I think the M1 looks a little awesome compared to the model 2, not outdated . :p

As for the CD and 32x... Well the the 32x is a bigger issue in general, but on the CD: it added a lot more hardware than necessary for a simple CD drive (compared to NEC's), but unfortunately the expansion port crippled it's ability to properly expand the unit: well bottlenecks with the VDP as well as the expansion interface crippled it.
If the Genesis had a PC-Engine like expansion port, that wouldn't have been an issue (ironic as NEC never took advantage of that -they probably could have released supergrafx as an add-on or built-in to the CD unit).
Still, they probably could have gotten around that my using the cartridge port for the CD... then there would probably have never been a 32x, the Sega CD would have been more successful (and had better looking and smoother graphics as well as FMV)...

I don't think the Sega CD is particular evidence of the MD being outdated though, in the sense of Sega feeling it needed an upgrade (they wanted to get into the CD market like NEC). It really highlights some of the key limitations of the Design though. I think Sega may have been trying to one up NEC's CD (and possibly the SNES too) with the added hardware to make up for the later release of the CD (NEC had their CD in 1988, only about a year after the PC engine was released, the MD came that year too, but MCD came in '91) I suppose they could have gone with a minimalistic MCD more like NEC's super CD perhaps -thus catering to the expansion port's limitations. (just a CD drive and controller with a bit of cache/buffer and 256 kB of RAM and a CD-DAC, possibly basic audio expansion like NEC had)

Quote:

I guess what I mean by this is, was the Genesis a little too "old" or "ill designed" to support add-ons in any way?

Yes, and no. There's a lot of things they could have done differently to facilitate expansion better, some obvious with hindsight, others seem liek they should have been fairly evident in the mid 80s even, and some things don't much effect expansion, but still seem odd and inefficient. (like PSRAM for the 68k or the unconnected IRQ line on the YM2612)
Regardless, the Cartridge port still provides enough connetions to provide a rather comprehensive interface, the Sega CD could have done liek the 32x did for video expansion. (separate display controller with simple framebuffer with video overlay to the Genesis)

I'm sure some sacrifices and compromises were made to enable SMS compatibility at reasonable cost though. The Z80 really isn't necessary otherwise (as long as the IRQ line was connected), same for the Z80's RAM. By previous comments from Tomaitheous, the MD VDP appears to be unrelated to the SMS VDP overall, and a chunk of the MD VDP is likely dedicated to supplying backwards compatibility: This likely contributed to the choice of a 9-bit RGB palette (rather than 12-bit with 4,096 colors rather than 512) and the limited number of subpalettes (4 compared to 16 on the SNES and 32 on the PC Engine).

Things that could have helped expansion would have been either planning to use the cartridge port for expansion, or putting many more signals on the expansion port, namely YS and the video timing signals (audio is already there, though not always connected), the analog RGB lines might also be desireable (for 32x-liek video expansion). However, another missed opportunity was connecting the unused buses on the VDP to the expansion port: this could have allowed for VRAM expansion (though that would take a lot of pins), but in particular there's a pixel/color bus which could have been used for a number of enhancements. (chilly willy suggested feeding that bus into a chip to accumulate the pixels into a 256 color display of 1/2 the resolution -combined with another genesis VDP, that could allow the full resolution at 256 color palettes or more layers like the supergrafx)

Without VRAM expansion there's still significant limitations on VDP updates, but it would take about 31 pins to provide another full VRAM bank. Adding another 64 kB of VRAM in '88 would have been costly, but another option could have been to allow the 64 kB to be configured as 2 32 kB banks optionally, thus eliminating the problem for games opting for that mode. (the trade-off is halving VRAM space)

The SNES also has some limitations, including VRAM and DMA limits (I'm not very familiar with them though, and even my understanding of the MD is rather general and limited).
I do know that the SNES, like the Genesis, cannot update VRAM during active display (only in VBLANK -not sure about what hblank is used for), the PC Engine doesn't have this limitation, and neither would the Genesis with dual VRAM banks.
The SNES may have had provisions for expansion on the cartridge slot, but the extensive port Hudson put on the PC Engine really seems like the most capable of the 3. (and also the least expanded ironically -again, they probably could have done supergrafx as an add-on, the video signals and address lines should all be there)

Edit: sorry for the rambling, I tend to get a bit carried away with some of the speculation, hopefully you can skim through and find the important bits. ;)
04-18-2010, 12:35 AM
kool kitty89

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aarzak

Back on-topic, at the time of the Genesis' release, there was already superior hardware being used on coin-ops. Sega itself had been utilizing 16-Bit hardware in its coin-ops since 1985, with "Hang-On" and "Space Harrier". Their "System 16" arcade board, which the Genny hardware was supposedly based on, was one of their more basic set-ups

There was almost always arcade hardware more powerful than contemporary home consoles (though that began to change somewhat in the 5th generation).
That's not in contention. However, the MD being based on the System-16 is a myth, at least as far as the hardware is concerned. It may have been a goal for the MD to be able to support decent conversions from the system 16, but the hardware is not fundamentally related. The System 16 is more powerful generally and would likely have cost a fair bit more if adapted into a home console (even if cut-down a bit), though likely a fair bit cheaper than the Neo Geo.

I think Sega introduced a number of 16-bit arcade boards around the same time. Looking at: http://www.system16.com/museum.php?id=1
There's the "pre system 16," Space Harrier, Out Run, and System 16A hardware all introduced in 1985.

Quote:

(compared to the hardware which powered their "scaling" games, i.e After Burner, Thunder Blade, Galaxy Force, which had upwards of 2-3 CPUs and VDPs working in parallel) yet even it had the Genny hardware beat in color palette, VDP, and sound capabilities.

Hmm I'm not entirely sure what the multiple CPUs were necessary for (in some cases, it seems to be that one CPU is only used to boot the system), but the dedicated scaling hardware should be handling that. (if there's some CPU overhead that might be what the added CPUs are for)
Of course, the scaling hardware dates back to '85 as well, albeit more primitive than the X and Y superscaler boards. (the System 32 was pretty scaling oriented as well)

Quote:

As far as home consoles go, the Genesis was up there back in 1988-1989, but was challenged with the release of the Neo-Geo and Super Famicom (SNES) in 1990 and afterwards. After the TG-16 died out it was the weakest system of its generation.

The Neo Geo is an arcade system repackaged as a home system, and a quite expensive one that that... I wouldn't consider it to be in the same market as the SNES or MD, it had it's own deluxe high-end niche market.
The System 16 likely would have cost much less to do such with. (I don't think it had to use as much ROM or as many banks, plus its a fair bit older)

Otherwise I think I already addressed everything in my previous post.
04-18-2010, 01:50 AM
tomaitheous

It's soo ancient, one of my Genesis' has turned to dust already :(
04-18-2010, 02:13 AM
kool kitty89

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

It's soo ancient, one of my Genesis' has turned to dust already :(

:lol:
04-18-2010, 02:28 AM
Smii

All we are... is dust in the wind, dude.
04-18-2010, 03:49 AM
CMA Death Adder

...

The Genesis still has new games coming out for it. Sounds like the exact opposite of "ancient" to me. ;)

Any case -- my best friend growing up had the SNES, and the damned thing was forced down my throat on many an occasion. The first time that we had, by some slip of fate, a GENESIS magically appear in his home, it was a real eye-opener for me. "Now this is what I've been waiting for!", I thought. And the rest, ladies and gentlemen, is history...

Remember: You're only as old as you feel.
04-18-2010, 04:33 AM
kool kitty89

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMA Death Adder

The Genesis still has new games coming out for it. Sounds like the exact opposite of "ancient" to me. ;)

Well the VCS still has games being made for it, some with "official" releases. (produced in cart form and sold) ;)
04-18-2010, 06:24 AM
retrospiel
At the time it was still supported it had the very same 'flaws' that people still complain about today:
- not that many colors on screen at once
- just one PCM channel for voices and drums
Although back in 1988 when it was released it offered more colors than any other comparable hardware, aside of arcade machines and workstations obviously. VGA (320x240 @ 256 colors) slowly gained in popularity during the early 90s, but many PC games I played still were EGA (320×200 @ 16 colors).

And one PCM channel was okay for 1988. Games had to be squeezed into tiny 2 Mbit ROMs anyway, so most games at the time used FM rather than PCM for drums.

The Mega Drive's strengths are:
- extremely powerful modern 32-bit CPU (using a 16-bit interface) plus 8-bit co-processor
- best 'real' (non-PCM based) sound chip in any console, aside of Saturn (which was rarely used, see Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Legend of Oasis / Story of Thor 2)
- pretty capable VDP (aside of the color issues obviously)
- highest video resolution of any console until Saturn (480i/576i) and Dreamcast (480p) [guess you could list this under 'pretty capable VDP' also]
All in all the Mega Drive is a nearly flawless machine. It blew away anything that came before it and thanks to its strengths could easily compete with machines that were introduced many years later.

A while back I did write a short essay on how I think Nintendo tried to tackle this beast:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Personally I think that the design of the SNES, Super Famicom actually, is a masterpiece. They did a truly fantastic job with it.

They kept some things similar to the NES/Famicom (CPU, screen resolution) which would allow developers a smoother transition - from both the NES/Famicom and the PC Engine.

They addressed all the Mega Drive's issues (colors, voice samples, controller) and with Mode 7 even beat Sega at their own game: Just compare Space Harrier II, which was one of two launch games for the Mega Drive, with F-Zero, one of the games that accompanied the launch of the Super Famicom in Japan...

They also gave it a unique soft design in grey instead of the Mega Drive's black::
http://vc.sega.jp/images/about_md.jpg http://www.axess.com/twilight/console/detail/sfc3.jpg

And they knew that for sound the only thing they could possibly do to compete with FM was to switch to samples instead.

For the time that was a very clever idea and provided both game designers and customers with something new, but I think that in the review it's the machine's main flaw.
04-18-2010, 07:47 AM
Flygon

If by ancient you mean Older then ones self, then yes, the Mega Drive is ancient to me.

But age isn't a bad thing, age can be viewed as a measure of maturity.
04-18-2010, 07:54 AM
kool kitty89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

At the time it was still supported it had the very same 'flaws' that people still complain about today:

not that many colors on screen at once
just one PCM channel for voices and drums
You're forgetting software mixing of multiple PCM channels. The lack of the interrupt line connection to the YM2612 is an unecessary detriment though and an odd oversight...

Quote:

Although back in 1988 when it was released it offered more colors than any other comparable hardware, aside of arcade machines and workstations obviously. VGA (320x240 @ 256 colors) slowly gained in popularity during the early 90s, but many PC games I played still were EGA (320×200 @ 16 colors).

Wow, you totally overlooked the Amiga...

Well that and the PC-Engine and Sharp X68000 in Japan. (several home computers had 256 color bitmap modes, but they were generally too weak to make good use of them for games -PC8801 and MSX2 -no blitter and fairly slow 8-bit CPUs)
Quote:
The Mega Drive's strengths are:

extremely powerful modern 32-bit CPU (using a 16-bit interface) plus 8-bit co-processor
- It's a 16-bit CPU, I was corrected on this before... 32-bit registers and some 32-bit instructions (granted several 8-bit CPUs are capable of 16-bit operations), 32-bit flat address model (only 24-bits connected), but only a 16-bit ALU, which is generally the deciding factor.
  As for power it wasn't really that hugely advanced, well it was when it was brand new, but not so much by the late 80s. A clean, well organized design (especially compared to contemporaries like the 8086), but not magical. ;)
  
  Quote:
- best 'real' (non-PCM based) sound chip in any console, aside of Saturn

Hmm, I think some would argue for the PC-Engine. ;)

Quote:

pretty capable VDP (aside of the color issues obviously)

The 9-bit 4-palette color limit is one thing, but another is VRAM contention, something potentially solvable by supporting a 2nd VRAM bank. (2x 64 kB banks would be expensive, but allowing the 64 kB to be configured as 2x 32 kB banks could have been a good option)

Quote:

highest video resolution of any console until Saturn (480i/576i) and Dreamcast (480p) [guess you could list this under 'pretty capable VDP' also]

While SNES's 512 width (and interlace) mode is a rather non-issue (MD interlace is also pretty much a non-issue), the PC engine supported 256, ~320, and 512 wide modes. I'm not sure how often the higher res modes were used, but iirc they were much less limiting than with the SNES. The MD probably used 320 wide mode more often though.
There's the Amiga of course, but that's not a dedicated console, but the Atari 7800 also supported 320 wide, as did the Jaguar (and higher), 3DO, CD32. (all pre-saturn)

Quote:

All in all the Mega Drive is a nearly flawless machine. It blew away anything that came before it and thanks to its strengths could easily compete with machines that were introduced many years later.

Why are you overlooking the PC Engine?
And past dedicated consoles there is, again, the Amiga... (and for the EU market the home computer/console market was rather blurred up to the early 90s -more in some countries than others)

Some design issues seem pretty odd though, the YM2612 interrupt line issue being the most blatant. (it's just one connection, not like other possible trade-offs)
With the dual VRAM banks, the main drawback for allowing 2x 32 kB would probably be the requirement of 2x 8-bit dual ported DRAM chips rather than 4-bit ones. (that would have greatly facilitated the Sega CD ASIC too, no help with colors, but greatly relieved the DMA bottlenecks)

Limitations of the VDP are partially explained by need to provide SMS compatibility (and *wasting* a chunk of silicon on that), though some seem mainly related to time constraints. (it's been mentioned that with a tiny amount of design changes they could have had 8 subpalettes instead of 4)

Some parts of the SFC's design seems a bit odd too, particularly the CPU... There are some advantages of the 65816 over the 65C02, but overall it seems like using a 65C02 derivative instead (like NEC) would have been better: for one thing it could have been clocked 2x as fast for the same RAM/ROM. (65816 had a rather stupid system with its bus multiplexing requiring memory clocked 2x as fast compared to 650x which only needs memory of equal speed and the 68k -or Z80 which have longer access times and can use slower clocked memory without loss in performance --the Amiga takes advantage of that for DAM, allowing the custom chips 50% of the bus without effecting the 68k -interleaved access due to the 68k taking 4 cycles per access)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flygon

If by ancient you mean Older then ones self, then yes, the Mega Drive is ancient to me.

But age isn't a bad thing, age can be viewed as a measure of maturity.

The Japanese MegaDrive hardware is older than me, but as you can probably tell, I'm 6 days older than the Genesis. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

You're forgetting software mixing of multiple PCM channels.

Good point, but I did not forget. I just think that it is not hardware related.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Wow, you totally overlooked the Amiga...

Well that and the PC-Engine and Sharp X68000 in Japan.

No, aside of the X68000, none of them does support more than 32 colors on screen. Mega Drive does 64.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Hmm, I think some would argue for the PC-Engine. ;)

Well, okay. Others would prefer the NES or C64 perhaps, but I think without the nostalgia involved there's just no comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

While SNES's 512 width (and interlace) mode is a rather non-issue (MD interlace is also pretty much a non-issue), the PC engine supported 256, ~320, and 512 wide modes.

There are no games that use these modes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Atari 7800 also supported 320 wide

I don't think any games used that mode. Here's how a typical 7800 game looks like:

http://www.atariage.com/7800/screens...Warriors_5.png

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

as did the Jaguar (and higher), 3DO, CD32. (all pre-saturn)

Unlike Saturn, neither console had any games that did not just use the regular 320x240 resolution (or lower). Same goes for PS1 btw. Only Saturn, N64, and later consoles used 480i in any significant number of games.

... Actually, I cannot even think of one N64 game that ran at 480i.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Why are you overlooking the PC Engine?
And past dedicated consoles there is, again, the Amiga...

Yeah, those are great machines that could hold up rather well. I did not forget them. Perhaps it didn't blow them away as much as I made it sound in my previous post but I do think that the MD has the better hardware. There are some advantages both of them have over the MD though, like the less restrictive use of palettes.

Quote:

... Actually, I cannot even think of one N64 game that ran at 480i.

Perfect Dark can, if you really want it to. However, when you do have it in "hi-res" mode, you see the main reason why most N64 games didn't, namely the always terrible framerate made even worse

Quote:

No, aside of the X68000, none of them does support more than 32 colors on screen. Mega Drive does 64.

Ehh? The PC-Engine can show up to 481 colors onscreen without any tricks. It has 32 subpalettes VS the Genesis 4.

Quote:

There are no games that use these modes.

For the SNES or the PC-Engine? For the SNES, Secret if Mana (and the prequel) used it in places. For PC-Engine, it's 256, 344, 512. Only a few games uses 512pixel mode (Sherlock Holmes FMV CD used it for video), but quite a few games used the 344 pixel mode.

For the record, Neo Geo's 320 mode isn't really that. They use a even 6mhz dot clock, so that res is much more closer to 256. Genesis 320pixel mode is a higher res than the Neo Geo's.

I agree that the '2612 introduced was pretty big leap for game consoles (1988) in the sound department. Though not so much, if at all, for Japanese computers at the time. But I'd still put it just right below the SNES, and only for a very small/few specific reasons. Musicians (outside of gaming) where searching for new and customizable sounds in the late 70's - early 80's and synthesizers would provided just this. In the gaming world, around the 16bit generation - the trend in video game music was to get as close to real instruments as possible. With whatever method you could use for modeling them. 2612 came close for a lot of sounds, but the SNES achieved a much closer result overall. By then PCE had already moved to CD, so there was no reason or need to get a such a synth chip. Probably why the PCE sound isn't more than what it is. The PCE CD unit was displayed back in 1987 before the PCE even came out, so they were already thinking in terms of the addon. But, I digress..

The Genesis is one of the manliest consoles of all time. It'll never get old.

Check Arthur's hall for a good write up.

http://www.arthurshall.com/x_2008_consoles.shtml

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

Ehh? The PC-Engine can show up to 481 colors onscreen without any tricks. It has 32 subpalettes VS the Genesis 4.

Similar goes for Mega Drive and Amiga with tricks. - The PC Engine is something I rarely ever experienced (other than via homebrew), but I read every tiny little snippet about it that I could get my hands on back in the day and the screenshots of many of the regular games looked much less detailed and less colorful than the Mega Drive games of the same period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

For PC-Engine, it's 256, 344, 512. Only a few games uses 512pixel mode, but quite a few games used the 344 pixel mode.

I didn't know that! Are there any good games that you'd recommend that make good use of that mode ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

For the record, Neo Geo's 320 mode isn't really that. They use a even 6mhz dot clock, so that res is much more closer to 256. Genesis 320pixel mode is a higher res than the Neo Geo's.

o_O

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

I agree that the '2612 introduced was pretty big leap for game consoles (1988) in the sound department. Though not so much, if at all, for Japanese computers at the time. But I'd still put it just right below the SNES

I agree that the SNES chip has some impressive features, but I think it's distinctive 80s keyboard sound is barely ever tolerable. - It aged horribly! :daze:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

2612 came close for a lot of sounds, but the SNES achieved a much closer result overall.

That's exactly the issue: It came close, but today it just sounds dated. And the YM2612 + SN76489 combo still sounds as awesome as ever.

I think I first noticed it when I played Mario All-Stars. It just sounded lifeless and artificial in comparison to the NES games - and it didn't look too hot either. Luckily Mario games do not really depend on graphics and music alone.

Anyway, I remembered reading that the SNES' sound chip would be so much more advanced that it would make the MD sound like a garbage can... But here I was, playing Super Mario 3, thinking that even the NES' 2A03 could give this thing quite a beating if properly used.

Under similar conditions, the MD's audio would just blow it off of the face of the planet.

- Well, I think the closest we ever got might be Thunder Force III vs Thunder Spirits, or Captain America.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

By then PCE had already moved to CD, so there was no reason or need to get a such a synth chip. Probably why the PCE sound isn't more than what it is.

I really like the PCE's sound. I do prefer it over the SNES (or MD via GEMS or the EA sound driver for that matter, but then again that goes without saying and isn't really a compliment, is it?! :huh:).

Every console is "obsolete" as soon as it comes out. That's the nature of the beast.

For all its limitations, I always thought Genesis had the greatest progression in graphics quality. I mean if you look at Harvest Moon or Rockman & Forte or whatever, they don't look all that different from early SNES games. But comparing Genesis games from 1989 and 1995 is a pretty stark contrast.

Megadrive was in time, a very powerful hardware for the price, very close to arcade hardware, but cheapest enough to be a domestic console

About resolution, if i not remember bad Sonic 2 use interlaced mode, to get 320x448, in double player mode, and th megadrive was powerful enough to handle the double work

NeoGeo use 304x224, and megadrive NTSC use in most games 320x224, 16pixels wide than snk beast

Yes, sonic 2 uses double vertical resolution for 2p VS mode.

Also the pixel clock of a 320 pixel wide screen is something like 6.6MHz and 256 pixel is around 5.2MHz (more or less ~100kHz) for 260 lines at 60FPS.

My biggest complaint about the megadrive was the limited color selection (3bit per color, blah) and the bank selector for the z80.
Ok Ok that was 2

i thought it had a good life

89-95 killed by the playstation

it lasted just about as long as atari 2600 77-84 killed by nes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

No, aside of the X68000, none of them does support more than 32 colors on screen. Mega Drive does 64.

You're forgetting the Amiga's quite useful halfbrite mode, 64 shades/colors. (one of the aspects that allowed it to compete well against the VGA palette if optimized)

However, remember for the Amiga, we're talking a full palette of 32 or 64 colors on a bitmapped display: any pixel on screen can be any one of those colors (aside from hardware sprites) opposed to the 15/16 color palettes of the MD where you tend to fall far short of 61 unique colors practically speaking (just as the SNES tends to fall far short of 241 colors in common modes and PCE short of 481 colors --the SNES also has true 256 color tile modes, but that's a separate issue). In most games you end up using palettes with a fair number of redundant colors, plus you're limited to 15 colors per tile: such that the Amiga's 32 colors is likely less limiting in many cases. (let alone halfbrite)

Quote:

Well, okay. Others would prefer the NES or C64 perhaps, but I think without the nostalgia involved there's just no comparison.

Yes, but the PCE's sound chip is actually quite capable and arguably superior in some respects to the YM2612 (and the particular way it's implemented in the MD -ie lack of interrupt line)

The PCE's sound hardware is really quite nice, it's got fully programmable waveforms and the sample playback capability is usually quite a bit better than the MD (plus you have 6 channels capable of playing PCM via 5-bit DACs), there are several cases where voice samples sound better/clearer on the PC-Engine than the SNES too. (like Street Fighter II --in part due to the filtering/interpolation of the SNES)

Quote:

There are no games that use these modes.

The SNES had all of 1 game which used the 512 wide mode (and also interlace), RPM Racing, so a bit like the MD with interlacing. Tomaitheous already addressed the PCE though...

Quote:

I don't think any games used that mode. Here's how a typical 7800 game looks like:

True, most used the 160 wide mode, but I think some did use the 320 mode. (its used was limited, but I still think it was notable --albeit some have noted that a 256 wide mode would have been a more useful feature)

I think there were also some A5200 games to use the 320 wide mode, I know there were A800 games that did. (many relied on composite video artifact colors in those modes)

Quote:

... Actually, I cannot even think of one N64 game that ran at 480i.

A lot of games use interlace, Episode 1 racer ONLY runs in 480i except for the intro cutscene. It's 320x480i normally, and 640x480i in high detail mode. (with the expansion pak) I actually wish it normally ran in 240p though.
Any game supporting the highres mode (ie most lucas arts games and several Rare titles -as well as some others like EA) ran in 480i, several also supported anamorphic widescreen. (some others had clipped widescreen)

I think the PSX used interlace in a few cases, and possibly 640x480i for some static screens, but probably not much else. (I don't know much on that though)
I do think some Jaguar games went beyond 320x240p though, I don't know much on that either.
However, I believe ALL 3DO games ran in 480i, either 320x480i or 320x240 scaled, I'm not sure if it did that for VCDs or cinepak though.
Actually, some descriptions list it as outputting an interpolated 640x480 display from 320x480i or 320x240, which seems a bit odd too.
http://classicgaming.gamespy.com/Vie...&id=39&game=12 That lists the interpolation/antialiasing as switchable in software. (so allowing direct unfiltered scaling to 640x480 or the filtered equivalent, interesting the 3DO has AA, even if rudimentary)

Quote:

Yeah, those are great machines that could hold up rather well. I did not forget them. Perhaps it didn't blow them away as much as I made it sound in my previous post but I do think that the MD has the better hardware. There are some advantages both of them have over the MD though, like the less restrictive use of palettes.

There's also the better sampled sounds (for both, and the sampled music for the Amiga), the ability to update VRAM in active display on the PC engine would be another. (over the SNES too)
Plus the Blitter based Amiga has a whole set of trade-offs against tile/sprite based systems. (OK, the Amiga has sprites too, but few)

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I really like the PCE's sound. I do prefer it over the SNES (or MD via GEMS or the EA sound driver, but then again that isn't really a compliment, is it?! ).

The technical quality ranges all over the place, though. Some musicians treat the PCE wavetable system like that of an NES with more channels and use simplistic waveforms (even some using nothing by square waveforms). Others go a bit further and use more advance techniques. Some use long samples on one or more channels, some don't even bother. But the most common thing I've always noticed with PCE chiptunes, is that the bottom end is missing. When it's perfectly capable of producing low frequencies or thick bassy bottom end long samples. Not quite as thick and high resolution as FM, but much more than what you would expect.

I have a 2612 pulled from a Genesis, and have it sitting on a PCE dev cart for a while now. The PCE has audio in on the cart port (sadly, only mono though), but I think the PCE audio chip is match up perfectly with any sort of FM chip. Get back that bottom end. Someday I'll finish building the amp for the chip and route it to the cart part (mapping it to unused PCE address range is simple enough). Hell, I could even attach the timer lines to the IRQ on the cart port like Sega never did on the Genesis. Get a nice high resolution timer :)

The funny thing about the SNES, is that's wavetable based just like the PCE. You could replicate almost any PCE tune on the SNES SPC unit (with a 32khz output limit though. The PCE is limited only by the speed of the amp. Otherwise all audio is output on a 3.58mhz resolution on the PCE). ;)

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About resolution, if i not remember bad Sonic 2 use interlaced mode, to get 320x448, in double player mode, and th megadrive was powerful enough to handle the double work

Indeed. But there was a lot (and I do mean a LOT) more slow down when playing in 2 player mode (at least on NTSC version). So powerful enough is relative, but still impressive IMO.

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NeoGeo use 304x224, and megadrive NTSC use in most games 320x224, 16pixels wide than snk beast

The 304x224 is a "clipped" mode. The dot clock is still the same. It's fixed, unchangeable. There's no res difference between that and 320 non clipped mode.

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Also the pixel clock of a 320 pixel wide screen is something like 6.6MHz and 256 pixel is around 5.2MHz (more or less ~100kHz) for 260 lines at 60FPS

Genesis, PCE, SNES low res is 5.3693mhz dot clock. Genesis H40 mode is 6.71165mhz dot clock. PCE mid res mode is 7.159090mhz dot clock. Neo Geo is fixed at a single 6.00mhz dot clock. PCE high res mode is 10.73864mhz dot clock. At relative position to overscan, Neo Geo res works about to be equivalent to ~286 pixels. Relative to Genesis H32 (256) and H40 (320) mode. Pretty much in the middle between the two (actually, slightly closer to 256 pixel modes). The additional pixels in overscan of the Neo Geo don't really do anything. The PCE can do the same thing, show out ~284, ~380, ~568 - but those pixels on over scan don't do anything for the resolution. If the Genesis was capable via clipping control, you could show up to ~359 pixels max overscan in high res mode. But again, you gain nothing. If anything, the Genesis is doing something internally in the VDP during that time when the line is active but no pixels are shown (like many consoles).

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That's exactly the issue: It came close, but today it just sounds dated. And the YM2612 + SN76489 combo still sounds as awesome as ever.

I agree. Today, things are view and judged much differently. It's not about getting realistic sounds as it is about getting pleasant/good sounds of the audio chips. And I think the 2612+PSG pulls ahead now because of this. Though, a few games still impress me to this day on the snes - but you've probably guess it would be games that have symphonic style strings and such (mostly all Squaresoft games). They still hold up to this day.

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Similar goes for Mega Drive and Amiga with tricks. - The PC Engine is something I rarely ever experienced (other than via homebrew), but I read every tiny little snippet about it that I could get my hands on back in the day and the screenshots of many of the regular games looked much less detailed and less colorful than the Mega Drive games of the same period.

You're right. A lot of PCE games don't push colors at all. Which is surprising, because it's just a matter of choosing which subpalette to go to which sprite or tile. Barely any space at all. You know Genesis/Megadrive developers would never squander a chance to have even half that many subpalettes to work with. And yet look at what some of the artists have pulled off on the Genesis. Some brilliant art work. The PCE also had the advantage when it comes to composite and RF output. The RGB to YUV conversion results in much more vibrant color palette. Of course, RGB out is pretty the same between the two. As far as "tricks", they only go so far. Having a real method of accessing colors gives much more freedom in detail. Amiga games tend to change the color registers as the screen is being drawn downwards - but this doesn't necessarily add detail. You could have 100+ colors onscreen in a game, but that doesn't mean you get the increase of detail because of the increase of colors. You just get a higher color count. That's why I said "without tricks". Because you have much more freedom in detail via color without tricks, than what you do - with tricks.

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I didn't know that! Are there any good games that you'd recommend that make good use of that mode ?

Recommend because of that mode? Not really. Because it doesn't matter to me if the game is in that mode or low res 256 pixel mode. I can list a few games that use that mode though, off the top of my head: Ninja Spirit, RType, Forgotten Worlds, SideArms, Legend of Hero Toma, Beyond Shadowgate, Warrior of Fate(well, the prequel of that game - can't remember the name). Heh, can't really think of much - but I know someone was making a list. It's not a very good mode for the PCE (IMO) as the sprites per scanline don't increase with the res - like they do on the Genesis. Quite a few vertical shooters on the PCE allow you do put the game into mid res mode - to give it an arcade vertical screen feel.

Bah - enough PCE/NeoGeo stuff.

I personally think the Genesis was pretty impressive when it came out. The VDP is very powerful setup. The CPU is fast. It's got plenty of "stock" ram. And while the samples might have never been "great", most of the sample stuff you never noticed (like drumkits and such) - sounded decent enough. It was only the voice type samples that showed off the artifacts. To me, not really a big deal. That's a tiny part of the game and the other instrument samples did the job just fine, for the time. I mean, if Sega was really worried about it, it could have included very-very-very basic single DAC setup on the carts (the pins are there for it on the cart connector). So really, the only real weakness IMO, is the tiny amount of subpalettes. Given that the MD came out a full year after the PCE (with its 32 subpalettes) or even the NES which had 8 (and that came out in '83). And by direct example, developers learned to deal with this limitation. There are plenty of examples of good looking Genesis titles. So I wouldn't say it was outdated when it came out, quite the opposite. It was impressive. Minus the colors on screen thing, but no system is perfect.

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The 304x224 is a "clipped" mode. The dot clock is still the same. It's fixed, unchangeable. There's no res difference between that and 320 non clipped mode.

I really don´t know what dot clock is, but are you sure that always is 320x224 and then , clipped to 304x224?

because when i plug the neogeo in my LCD, i see fullscreen, and not two black 8pixeles bars at each side

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Originally Posted by theelf

I really don´t know what dot clock is, but are you sure that always is 320x224 and then , clipped to 304x224?

because when i plug the neogeo in my LCD, i see fullscreen, and not two black 8pixeles bars at each side

Yes, I'm sure (straight from Charles Macdonald who RE'd the system and worked on the emulation for MAME for it). It depends on the game whether to choose full mode or the clipped mode. The master clock in the system is an even 24mhz crystal. It's integer divisible of 4 to get 6mhz for the resolution. Whether you see it or not, is up to your TV set (my brother's set has auto stretching. It will detect "black" borders and scale appropriately. Your LCD could be doing any number of things including that or simply set to a bigger smaller viewable area of the active scanline, but it doesn't change the fact that there's only 1 dot clock mode for the Neo Geo).

The "dot clock" is the amount of time a single pixel stays on an active scanline in analog world. 6mhz / the horizontal scan rate of the screen = total pixels "units" on that line. 6,000,000 / 15735 = 381 pixel "units". Of course, you need time for Hsync, front and back "porch" and game systems almost always add in its own "clipping". Each "tick" of 6mhz is 166.666ns. So each pixel on that line is ~166.666ns in length. A single scanline is ~63.5us. Subtract non active part of the scanline and divide the remaining amount but 1/dot clock. Then take into account whatever the video chipset decides to clip in addition to that (which is exactly what 320 and 304 video modes are on the Neo Geo).

I think if megadrive can have a clipped 304x224 mode too, to make neogeo port easy, i don´t see nothing in documents

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Originally Posted by theelf

I think if megadrive can have a clipped 304x224 mode too, to make neogeo port easy, i don´t see nothing in documents

Really no reason to. Since the Neo Geo resolution pretty much sits even between 256 and 320 pixel modes of the Genesis - you could go with either one. It's only about 11% difference either way. And most TV clips before the 320 pixel limit on the Genesis for that mode anyway (or did BITD). Nowadays, it's unpredictable of how much overscan an LCD or even CRT will show and sometimes it's dependent on the port you use (composite, rf, svideo) on the display device. In other words, if you did use 320 mode, you wouldn't have to worry about clipping (if said Neo Geo game used that clipping mode). There's almost always a tiny bit more to the map to display than what you normally see, in a game.

so with memory bank switching + VDP coprocessors added to the cartridge, some down scaling of the game res to 320x224 and audio resampling this game will be possible on the Genesis.

Genesis Lives

http://betastart.com/SW/sonic4.png

Hahaha - nice cover :D Did you make that?

yeah, I hoped it be SEGA's secret platform that they haven't announced yet for Sonic 4, but I know it's probably a long shot for SEGA to do something like this, even if it's advertised as a limited edition collectable.

Huh interesting info on the dot clocks. Hmm, that would given the Neo Geo almost perfectly square pixels on monitors calibrated similarly to CRT TVs. (in 60 Hz, of course)
That, and the 7.16 MHz dot clock mode for PCE would give almost perfectly square pixels in 50 Hz PAL.

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Originally Posted by gamegenie

yeah, I hoped it be SEGA's secret platform that they haven't announced yet for Sonic 4, but I know it's probably a long shot for SEGA to do something like this, even if it's advertised as a limited edition collectable.

As long as they don't license it to be released on the Firecore...

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Huh interesting info on the dot clocks. Hmm, that would given the Neo Geo almost perfectly square pixels on monitors calibrated similarly to CRT TVs. (in 60 Hz, of course)
That, and the 7.16 MHz dot clock mode for PCE would give almost perfectly square pixels in 50 Hz PAL.

I never understand the concept of square or non square pixels, this affects software or is only hardware? if you programming for megadrive you need to take care of this or not?

I know is different history, but about aspect ratio,i always play anything stretched in 16/9 and look good for me, because that, i really never don´t care about pixels/aspect...etc

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Huh interesting info on the dot clocks. Hmm, that would given the Neo Geo almost perfectly square pixels on monitors calibrated similarly to CRT TVs. (in 60 Hz, of course)

Hehe, you caught that. I'm surprised :)
Just for your kool kitty98 -> http://alexandria66.2mhost.com/~pcen...eo/mvstech.txt

You'll be surprised to find that it's really only 32k master palette. It can be set to darker mode, but the whole palette gets effected. So 65k is really a bit of a stretch. You'll also see that the Neo Geo doesn't run at 60fps (59.94). A tiny bit lower.

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That, and the 7.16 MHz dot clock mode for PCE would give almost perfectly square pixels in 50 Hz PAL.

Is it? I never checked. I'm pretty sure that's the same dot clock the Amiga uses for low res (for NTSC. Maybe PAL uses 7.059mhz something or other). Some sites might list Amiga as having 320 pixel mode, but I've read where you can adjust for overscan (I guess for computer monitors VS TVs).

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I never understand the concept of square or non square pixels, this affects software or is only hardware? if you programming for megadrive you need to take care of this or not?

I know is different history, but about aspect ratio,i always play anything stretched in 16/9 and look good for me, because that, i really never don´t care about pixels/aspect...etc

It's easy. A square pixel means it's the same width as it is in height. Most/no home game systems use square pixels. Either slight skinnier or slightly fatter. But you're stretching everything out to 16:9 :o So you're right, it has no meaning to you ;)

Well, to try contribute to the conversation, I would say the Mega Drive had pretty good specs for 1988. Nothing compared to the Amiga or the top end Sega 16 boards, but for a domestic game console for the time, the hardware blew the NES right out of the water. I mean yeah, it has flaws and compromises. For example, it could of had a 256 out of 4096 colour palette. If it meant scrapping out BC of Master System games, I wouldn't have complained. Look how badly the MS did in North America compared to the NES, when you look at it that way, I see little point of the MD having BC. That extra die space within the VDP definitely could have been used for better colour palette.

But aside all that, I like the Mega Drive as it is. ;)

Well, the Master System compatibility also meant that they included the Master System's sound chip. Without it, the Mega Drive's audio wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting as it is. I'd happily trade a few colors for that.

Plus I am not sure if the color issue is actually related to the SMS compatibility at all. 64 colors out of 512 was pretty much state of the art back in 1988.

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Nothing compared to the Amiga

When i was kid i have a A500, and when i saw megadrive games i think graphics are brutal...

Besides technical data, i don´t remember to much games that have better graphics in amiga that in megadrive (and some like SF2 have graphics but not playability)

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Well, the Master System compatibility also meant that they included the Master System's sound chip. Without it, the Mega Drive's audio wouldn't be anywhere near as interesting as it is. I'd happily trade a few colors for that.

Plus I am not sure if the color issue is actually related to the SMS compatibility at all. 64 colors out of 512 was pretty much state of the art back in 1988.

Well, everytime I think of the Mega Drive's original release date, I think of the Turbografx's colour palette.....or the cancelled Konix Multisystem. It just seems on paper the MD's palette is gimped in comparison.

Konix Multisystem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konix_Multisystem

http://www.konixmultisystem.co.uk/

A british designed contraption that was to be released in '89 with a 256 out of a 12bit palette, leaps and bounds above the Mega Drive's 9bit palette...in just a year...

Perhaps that in itself should be saved for another thread...

The Amiga, Apple IIgs, and Lynx all had 12bit palettes, albeit with fewer colors on screen.

The color palette is the single advantage of these systems. The resolution is lower. There are fewer colors on screen at once, the processors are slower, the audio hardware, etc.

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Originally Posted by Jasper061992

Konix Multisystem

A british designed contraption that was to be released in '89 with a 256 out of a 12bit palette, leaps and bounds above the Mega Drive's 9bit palette...in just a year...

removed

Leaps and bounds? ...Above? =P

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

The color palette is the single advantage of these systems. The resolution is lower. There are fewer colors on screen at once, the processors are slower, the audio hardware, etc.

The Amiga doesn't have those problems. The resolution is almost the same, just shorter by 24 vertical pixels. It can do 64 colors with half-brite, the processor is the same, and the audio hardware certainly has its fans.

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