Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jackal
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Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Jackal
Bad Dudes' combat/hit detection wasn't that stellar. TMNT arcades play like garbage, much worse hit detection than any Golden axe.Quote:
Originally Posted by avlon
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vludi
Fair enough ;). Anyway in the matter of design flaws, the lack of shadow is definitely annoying in GA.
Hit detection on GA1 are different for each character. The game is first and foremost is a weapon-based brawler. As such, Makoto Uchida and co. stressed range, speed, and distance. The "vertical" range some people mention is specific to a particular character. It's easier to hit characters with Gillius because his attacks are swings, as in, moving on the horizontal plane. That leads to an easier time hitting characters at a particular range, but that opens you up to enemies with strong close range options. (slower start up, longer recovery).
Gillius is good at mid range, has great options for larger groups of enemies, takes a hit on the magic power and options.
Tyris is better at the long-mid, good mid range base chops, but they have limited horizonal range, so you have to line them up, which is easier for her because her walk speed, including vertical movement, is faster, so you can "walk" enemies into her "line of attack". Her Magic type supports this, she can afford to build up her magic, as her play style allows her to keep folks out.
Ax-Battler is a happy medium. He is mid-short in style, his attacks have a solid balance of range and area-coverage. His attacks cover a good number of scenarios, but his range is pretty short, so you gotta line 'em up, but the coverage of his base attacks in regards to "height" or "vertical" range help him out quite a bit. Magic is at the mid-level, so he can play a bit of the range game if he wants, and play support to a good Gillius, or good offense for a good Tyris.
Some of these comments seem to come from a sub-set of players that need to remember where these games from. Team Shinobi and Makoto Uchida were masters at their craft. That craft being, creating balanced, enjoyable, challenging coin-op games ith an UNBELIEVABLE amount of great visual/audio. Look at an Altered Beast/Golden Axe attract screen. Get actually GOOD at one of these games. They are crazy, crazy deep/balanced/skill-based.
As and interaction designer/game designer, I was always really amazed by what Makoto Uchida did with his early games, but GA/AB in particular. There's good design in those games that transcend the medium.
Some of the people here, try this stuff. Play the characters with these ideas in mind. Specifically, play the arcade version, pay attention to the animations, but particularly, the speed, speed variance, weight, and how that is directly connected to the control. Their is a weight to Uchida games. GA/AB have that characteristic in spades. All the characters in GA have a weight/speed/and character to their movement. It's all there on purpose, and learning them, working with them, then taking advantage of them makes you better at the games.
AB is the same way. Makoto Uchida was/is a goddamn monster in regards to classic coin-op character design.
^Great analysis. I liked Golden Axe from the start & always have, but I really didn't appreciate Altered Beast until I got good at the game. Then what seemed like an unfair, inappropriately unforgiving second-rate beat-'em-up became a much more interesting experience.
Yeah something good about Golden Axe is that it introduced different characters (along with Tenchi wo Kurau one month earlier), which became a standard for the genre later on.
That being said I prefer Wild Fang to Golden Axe, enjoyed more the combat mechanics and overall presentation, also it has proper shadows :p
I love how there's some gamers that really analyse game design and difficulty balance. I only see it on this forum and shmups system 11.
This post is absolutely correct. I was wondering when someone was going to discuss the differences between each character, their range and limitations. To be quite honest, I don't think I could have expressed the nuances of the game quite as well. As Goldenband has already stated, this was a great post.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEGA-Jorge
Anyone who understands SEGA-Jorge's comments will give him some much deserved rep!
In closing, the HardcoreGaming101 article was absolutely sh*t and should be stricken from the record.
A lot of HG101 articles are shit. Especially the Kurt ones. Not a fan of his articles at all.
Too bad the website doesn't allow comments under each article. At a minimum, those individuals who are familiar with a given title could cite their opinion on the article and offer their take on the game.
Looking at page 3 of the article, it states:
Pits that are really easy to fall into? WTF is the author talking about? That one statement indicates to me that the author hasn't spend sufficient time learning the game. Anyone who has played the game MORE THAN ONCE will know exactly how to jump over those pits unscathed. Novice players will have learnt valuable info from SEGA-Jorge's brief comment than anything listed in that shitty article.Quote:
The Sega Genesis version is one of the more popular and well known ports. It looks almost like the arcade, but they took out and censored some things. The intro where you see Alex die was removed and replaced by the hero explaining the story, the Sega Beer Barn in Turtle Village I was taken out, they removed the ending with the arcade and replaced it with playing baseball with the text, and they removed all instances of blood. This is very interesting considering that the cartridge is a world version. This version also had a hidden stage when you defeated Death Adder and contained a mode called Duel were you fought various enemies from the game. The hidden stage is really poorly designed containing pits that are really easy to fall into. Another difference is when you save the king and queen they give you some BS reason why you have to go through the door and save the kingdom. This version is 2 player and was also released on the Genesis in a package called "Sega 6 Pack". which included “Columns”, “Sonic the Hedgehog”, “Streets of Rage”, “Revenge of Shinobi”, and "Super Hang-on", obviously a great selection. The box art was so bad it was featured in anarticle on 1up.com about some of the worst art ever to grace a videogame box
And that's why I was asking for some actual examples of the terrible hit detection occurrences - which were never provided, by the way.
If a game or series of games have terrible hit detection, then it shouldn't be all that difficult to pin-point non-registered hits situations in one of the thousands of gameplay videos publicly available of the said game(s).
But then you may hit that wall which separates a poor statement from an actual argument.
Rep given to Sega-Jorge.
What are the differences between Sega-CD version and Genesis ? They say Sega-CD colors are arcade perfect, I watched a youtube video and didn't see any difference with Genesis version, which is far from arcade perfect. Also, no 2-players mode ? Seriously ?
The Sega CD version sucks IMO.
2P mode removed nad PCM samples replaced (I think they're played by the Ricoh chip in this version) for the worst.
Yeah, arcade soundtrack but really half-assed job overall. I hate how they couldn't even replace the FM-based sound effects by PCM ones or, at the very least, make them play without cutting each other like in the MD version (which is that way to sacrifice onlyonetwo music channels in the cart version but makes no sense in the Sega CD version since the FM chip is not playing the music, damn it!).
The rest is identical AFAIK.
Reading avalon's comment initially, I could see how one could perceive that Golden Axe had poor detection if you consistently chose a limited character such as Ax-Battler! When I first got the game, I picked Ax-Battler as my character of choice.
https://akingsquest.files.wordpress....yer_select.gif
He's the tallest of all the characters and you would expect his range to be the best. But it is quite the opposite.
His broadsword pales in comparison to the dwarf's battle axe especially when you compare how much freedom you have when attacking enemies: I always found that you can be a bit more careless playing as the dwarf compared to the Conan's weaker brother! Sorry ... couldn't resist! :p
Gillius Thunderhead's range and move set is superb. No matter where an enemy is located on screen, you can deal damage with ease. On the hardest difficulty, I can clear the game without taking a hit. With Tyris Flare, it gets progressively harder. Ax Battler's range, on the other hand, makes the task quite a bit more difficult.
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/...-axbattler.png
But, IMO, that's about range and speed rather than bad hit detection. If your attack is completed after the enemy's attack I think it's fair to have your ass kicked. :p
True. Positioning is a key element of the game too! For example, an advanced player will know how to deal with the skeletons without breaking a sweat. Walking to the far left of any given area (that the game will allow) will trigger all 3 skeletons (enemies) to appear. Knowing how far to move your character in that playfield to only trigger 1 (or at most 2 enemies) makes the task much more easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Also if you choose to trigger the maximum number of skeletons, two out of the three skeletons will often try to flank you on either side to deliver multiple hits. How you choose to evade those hits and counter depends squarely on the player.
In terms of dealing continuous or severe damage, positioning comes into play: If you are facing a skeleton on the same plane, you are forced to evade and then attack. On the other hand, if you are fighting the skeletons on the "Friend's Path" stage which has multiple tiers, you have options in terms of dealing damage: If you are able to coax the skeleton to the top tier, you can deliver non-stop hits by attacking the skeleton at an angle and from the bottom tier. Positioning the character in such a way will cause your character to deliver multiple swipes until the skeleton is dead. The way your character behaves is far different than delivering the standard combo all due to positioning.
Another example is facing Death Adder, Death Bringer, the towering knights, or Bad Brothers: Positioning comes into play here as well. Cornering any of these characters to either the far left or far right of the screen and attacking at an angle makes the task very easy. faxing the character's head on, opens you up to taking damage although the running head butt (Gillius' moveset) and flying kick (Tyris Flare's move) are both effective as well.
The magic about GA series is a strategic gameplay, if you play it like other beat em up you are doing it worng,
GA is about get a good point in battlefield and use it in your favor, protecting yourself and take down the enemis one by one,
normal combo take much time so the dash attacks are welcome, also you always must drive them to holes and outside of the cliff and etc..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vludi
It's still a fun game for me regardless (though that might be the nostalgia talking) and I really love it's art style. That IMO has held up well to this day.
I truly love Golden Axe 1. The enviromental, the sounds, the music, the art, the very different gameplay than Final Fight/Street of Rage.... A pity GA2 to me seems so cheap (and very uninspiring desing and levels) And GA3 depart too much for the dark GA1. So disgraceful the MegaCD was just a worse (except music) version... Wonder If SEGA just followed what they did with Final Fight CD....
3, 2, 1.
The criticisms seem very funny to me. Branching paths, parallax, and it all looks good. Throw in a great soundtrack, too!
Golden Axe Warrior is my favorite thing that I played from the series. Golden Axe can't compare to Streets of Rage 2 IMO.
If I have to pick one, the first one. I played Golden axe, Revenge of Shinobi and Streets of rage a lot back in the day with a friend who got those games in a pack. Today, I can't seem to enjoy any of them. Maybe Streets of rage thanks to the music, but they all feel very primitive to me now.
Streets of rage 2 improved in so many things, as did Shinobi III, but Golden axe kept the same level (or got really worse in the third installment). I'm not surprised that nobody asks Sega to revive this franchise, while many people ask for a Streets of rage comeback.
We got Streets of rage 4, though -_-
Golden Axe II for me, still have my copy from back in the day. It will always hold a special place for me :)
The original Golden Axe wins by virtue of sheer nostalgia, but Golden Axe II almost beat it due to the fact that I love it's soundtrack so damn much! The music in Golden Axe II makes the Mega Drive's soundchip sing.
Speaking of Golden Axe, it was just announced that Golden Axe is being adapted for the stage in Japan:
http://spiralchariots.com/goldenaxe/index.html
That's amazing. I hope it makes its way to the United States.
From what I've read, it seems the story is mainly based on Golden Axe III?
http://www.siliconera.com/2018/10/11...play-in-japan/
I was playing a bit of Golden Axe this weekend. It's such a great port. I was having a great time playing duel mode and doing 1 - credit runs in Arcade mode. I need to put together some thoughts on this game, similar to my Eternal Champions stuff. There's so much depth to this game.
I’m trying to one-credit the game in preparation for my visit to the Arcade Club in December. I’m playing on the Mega CD version as not too fussed by the lack of multiplayer when I am just using it for training, so no point buying the cart version when I have it on CD already.
How does it compare to the arcade in terms of difficulty? Is skill/strategy directly transferable? And how on Earth do I get past the two knights at the end of level five without using a credit?
It's different enough that you're going to struggle. The game was made more approachable on console. I'd recommend getting the Golden Axe Collection on PS4/XB1. It has the arcade Golden Axe. I used that when I was practicing my 1cc for an arcade expo. I wasnt able to beat it, I got to DA and got killed by skeletons. I had a crazy high score though.
Played Golden axe 1 and 2 today. I didn't expect they had aged so bad (to me). GA1 was frustrating very often. GA2 felt a bit better, but mostly boring.
Golden Axe 1 & 2 are ridiculously easy for me, given how many times I've played them since I was a kid, but they never get old and I still find them very playable. Oh and I can't stop praising the soundtrack to Golden Axe 2!Quote:
Originally Posted by molul
Are you just running through them, I'm trying to set scores? The games really open up when you learn the mechanics and enemy patterns, etc. It's a more rewarding experience if you're score attacking any of the GA games, at least in my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by molul
Aged poorly? Can you elaborate on that? I still find all the games totally playable. I generally approach them with the understanding that, at the time they were made, they had a range of limitations, be them technical, legal, etc. There was always something that made game dev so challenging at the time, and it's interesting to see how well games were constructed given all the limits of the respective hardware, available time, and access to talented devs/artists.
In my opinion, Golden Axe on the Genesis is a freaking marvel of artistic and technical ingenuity.
But I'm definitely interested in hearing the opinions of people that might not have the same nostalgic baggage I bring to the franchise.
I should actually have that nostalgia factor, as I played Golden Axe a lot with my childhood best friend in the early 90s.
Regarding the "aging" thing, if I compare it to other Mega Drive games I still find great (i.e. Dynamite Headdy, Streets of Rage 2, Ristar, Thunder Force IV...), GA 1 and 2 controls felt more "primitive" (the game doesn't flow the same as others like those I mentioned). Graphics feel a bit below that level.
GA is from another era of beat 'em ups and i loved it, its simple. he is more based on stage position, strategy and fast reaction than the moders games based on Final Fight formula.
Pyron FriendQuote:
Originally Posted by Pyron
With the restoration techniques used by you and Max in Street, it is possible to restore the background Bg in chatacter select arcade same the arcade and the background BG in the first screen (trees with fog)
And the intro of the first npc dying?
GA needs much more work and love, one programer to increase the rom size and load more assests on vram.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chev Chelios
The artwork thats already have is very well done if you look at these limitations that the game was made
That's exactly what it needs. I played the arcade version first and was underwhelmed by the Genesis port, they used a much smaller ROM size and it meant cutting many of the animations, using smaller sprites and backgrounds composed of the same small tiles repeating over and over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyron
At least with a bigger ROM you could get the backgrounds near-perfect other than minor color differences. Making the sprites bigger and adding back in frames of animation seems like it would be a lot harder.
My biggest issue with the Genesis port is how much harder staying on the beasts seems. In the arcade version they're actually useful; in single-player on the Genesis it just seems to turn you into a target and everybody keeps running to tackle or leap on you. I also don't think the added level was necessary in terms of the overall length and pacing of the game; I really find the arcade version is more fun. And that self-referential, meta ending was cooler, too. Actually, someone above said the console version was more approachable, but unless you're playing the Beginner Mode, GA1 is actually easier in the arcades (on default settings), with less aggressive enemies. I don't think the arcade game has aged poorly at all (well-designed games never do).
GA2 GEN brought absolutely nothing to the table, and I can't get myself to like it at all. I liked GA3 from the first time I played it, though, and that hasn't changed. Blocking and low hits are nice additions, and the panther person is super fast and mobile. The Revenge of Death Adder is overrated; it's got tons of impressive visual touches and being able to mount catapults on the backs of the new bizarrians is a great idea, but something about the fighting itself feels off to me, and the game drags in single-player. I'd like to actually play it with 3 other people, that might change my mind about it.
The Duel was actually a pretty good VS fighter with great music, even if it doesn't do anything special, I used to think Ax Battler on Game Gear was cool but I kind of hated it when I tried to replay it recently (high encounter rate and poorly designed side-scrolling levels), and Warriors is just a so-so Zelda clone.