Printable View
I have heard in the past that some games like Ranger X used hardware trickery to actually display more than the 64 color limit and more like in the hundreds. Is that true, and if it is - how did they do it, which games had it done, and why didn't they do it some more?
Also, I have heard that even with the 64 color limitation, that does not include many shades of greyscale. Are the greyscale colors not included in the 64 color limitation?
you can change palettes midframe and you can use Shadow/highlight... i.e Sonic1/2/3 show 128 colors in levels with water.
So when you say mid frame, do you mean that half the screen is one color palette and the other half can have an entirely different palette?
yes.
If you want you can show all 512 colors at once, or ~triple it when you add Shadow/Highlight into the mix. There's probably ~1300 colors total with SH/L in use.
Practical use is limited though, just as there normally aren't even 61 colors on screen for games not using tricks due to redundant colors. (obviously transparent is always going to be redundant unless you dedicate palettes to the furthest BG plane -I'm assuming the palettes allow the transparent entry to be replaced)Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
And in the case of palette reloading you get graphical garbage mid-screen, unlike many other consoles where the artifacting is hidden in overscan if present at all. (on scanline based architectures it would even be present -not sure about ones like the Amiga which it's supported in hardware)
That's not to say there aren't examples where color count approaches 61 colors in-game, with very distinct palettes. (or otherwise close to the total number of palette entries currently used in the display -reloading palettes or Shadow/HL respectively)
Then there's things like 30/60 Hz flicker to fake more colors or transparency. (IMO, when practical, it can look better than dithering -maybe not as good in 50 Hz) Such effects would work best with 60 Hz and high persistence phosphor CRTs.
So why is it then that people say the Genesis lacks colors? Hell it has always looked good to me for being only 64 (in most cases). I honestly don't think Sonic is anymore colorful with it's 128 colors as Wonderboy IV is with it's 64 (or did it use 128 also). I think a lot has to do with the game artist's abilities.
Is there a utility that can count/analyze how many unique colors are being displayed on screen at any given time? It would be interesting to see what games out there are really pushing the hardware limitations.
Another thing, would it be possible that a cart could have a graphics chip (like the SVP), that allows it to produce more colors?
The SVP doesn't produce more colors. Only the 32X produces more colors. Anything else (including the CD) is stuck with the same number of colors as the Genesis.
Sure, but put it next to a 256-color SNES game and the Mega Drive/Genesis is a bit disappointing.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldskool
Still, its color limitations do give the MD/G a very distinct look, one that makes it unique among 16-bit consoles, and it forced developers to be creative with the machine's capabilities.
Yeah I know, I realize all that - what I am asking is that would it have been possible to have a chip inside a cartridge that's similar to the SVP, but allows an expanded color palette? Of course it would have to be a processor of sorts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly Willy
True, I do realize that the SNES and Turbografx-16 are a bit more colorful. But in all honesty, I think the Genesis still looks just fine on it's own. I look at games like Sonic and Wonder Boy and I'm amazed at how colorful they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil N
Hell, it's better than the NES and EGA so it's pretty good in my books. ;)
I guess it would be possible, but it wouldn't really be practical. It would require an external cable just like the 32X.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldskool
If you're comparing to the SNES, it's lacking in two areas. The master palette is only 512 colors (excluding Shadow/Highlight). The SNES in comparison is 32,768 colors for the master palette. That alone is a big difference. The second thing is color onscreen. 61 for Genesis and 241 for SNES (normal modes and exluding transparency windows and transparency BG/sprite modes). But more than color count, is that each individual sprite or tile can only use 15 colors. The SNES, Genesis, and TG16 are all like this. Even the CPS-1 arcade system and NeoGeo are like this. They all have this same 15 color limitation. To get around this limitation of just 16(15) colors per screen, these system use 'sub-palettes'. Each subpalette holds the master palette or real colors for that tile or sprite to use. But only 15. On the Genesis, you only have 4 subpalettes. 4 * 15 = 60 colors. There's 1 color for the very far back layer. It's solid. So that's 61 colors total. But where the limitation comes in, is when you need colors from one subpalette and some from another subpalette. You can't do that. So you have to create a new subpalette that has these 'already used' colors. And that's the catch. With only 4 subpalettes, you run out of room quickly. By comparison, the SNES has 16 subpalettes and TG16 has 32 subpalettes. On the Genesis, to avoid problems you either limit the amount of colors total for the screen instance and/or you limit the amount of colors a sprite or tile uses. If you limit some sprites and tiles to only use 7 colors, then you lessen the burden of choosing your total color setup. So, if the Genesis had a free range of 61 colors anywhere, it would be pretty fantastic. But unfortunately, these console systems aren't setup like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by oldskool
Even though you can have up to 61 colors without tricks - you normally don't hit that because of redundant color entries spread across the subpalettes. You can of course use tricks to increase the total color count, but that's limited in use and doesn't really solve the original problem of only 4 subpalettes.
A generic example:
http://www.pcedev.net/pics/Chik1a.gif
http://www.pcedev.net/pics/Chiki1.png
Top MD, bottom PCE. Top: See the skull bones are the same color as the ship. And the top half of the ship is also a single color range as the rest of the ship.
So, if you see good graphics/colors/etc on the a Genesis game - then you can attribute that to a good graphic/artist team.
I think he means up to 128 colors. But you're right. A game designed from the ground up is going to look good (and better than a port from something with more color freedom). I don't think Sonic games are really going to look any better with any more colors. They look great as is.Quote:
Hell it has always looked good to me for being only 64 (in most cases). I honestly don't think Sonic is anymore colorful with it's 128 colors as Wonderboy IV is with it's 64 (or did it use 128 also). I think a lot has to do with the game artist's abilities.
Yeah, taking snap shots in unfiltered form from an emulator, and running it through an app to count the colors. But like I stated previously, all they gets you is the total color count. Not necessarily related color in detail. I could easily make a image that has a high color count, using hsync palette changing, but it isn't going to impress you. Nor is it going to really add much to the screen. Sonic mid screen palette change serves a purpose of having water effects, not necessarily to increase the screen color count (although I'm sure they were glad they didn't have to sacrifice any or much color to get that effect).Quote:
Is there a utility that can count/analyze how many unique colors are being displayed on screen at any given time? It would be interesting to see what games out there are really pushing the hardware limitations.
No. Unless it mixed colors externally. Nothing can be done internally.Quote:
Another thing, would it be possible that a cart could have a graphics chip (like the SVP), that allows it to produce more colors?
I think it should be said that, the system might be lacking in colors - but it's definitely not lacking in graphics.
Or resolution.
It seems to have a rather high screen resolution I just don't see on any other console of it's time.
That's very true, the resolution is great. And the special effects and raw processing power more than makes up for the lack of colors. The SNES looks very "soft" to me, if you know what I mean. The Genesis seems to have more of an edge to it's graphics, maybe due to the slightly higher resolution.
Of course the SNES can do everything the Genesis can special effects wise, but as far as the PCE/TG16 is concerned - in the special effects department it's blown out of the water by the Genesis - whether it has more colors or not.
I was just playing some Wonder Boy in Monster World, and in my mind I was comparing it to the Turbo Duo version. Hell - the colors are practically just as good, and the graphics probably better due to scrolling backgrounds. Shortly after that I played a little Red Zone and was thinking to myself, there's no way in hell the Turbografx could do stuff like this on a hucard.
That's a lot of good information Tom, you explain it in a way that I half way understand. :)