I feel the mastermind of Sonic should still be working to advance the series and not have the series get pushed to 3rd parties.
Super Mario games are still under close guidance of Shigeru Miyamoto, Sonic game should get direction from Yuji Naka.
Printable View
I feel the mastermind of Sonic should still be working to advance the series and not have the series get pushed to 3rd parties.
Super Mario games are still under close guidance of Shigeru Miyamoto, Sonic game should get direction from Yuji Naka.
Naka was against leaving the hardware biz, and I think he had enough of releasing yet another Sonic game each year.
Edit: http://archive.videogamesdaily.com/f...eb-2009-p1.asp
Quote:
Kikizo: How do you now reflect on Sega deciding to leave the hardware business?
Naka: I was very much against Sega ceasing to develop hardware, and I think at the time Phantasy Star Online was just about to come out. Okawa-san, who was the head of Sega at the time, said that the networked approach to gaming was something we should pursue, and so that game was developed with that concept fully in mind. At the time, internet infrastructure wasn't really up to the standards it is now; not everybody was even online, whereas now, everyone's got it. Chu Chu Rocket was released as a test to see what was possible, and as a result of that we subsequently developed Phantasy Star Online. But yeah, until the very final moments, I was really against Sega leaving the hardware business. In a way I feel that, had that decision not been made, Sega would have gone bankrupt - so maybe it was a good business decision. But at the same time, I also feel like, what the hell - we should have given it a go, and we should have taken that risk. But that is just my personal opinion, because I really enjoyed the hardware side of things at Sega.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...gs_at_his_.php
Quote:
Naka: Before I left Sega, I was high enough up that I was looking at every game the company was developing.
Once I was in that position, though, I found that I wanted to get into the nitty-gritty details instead with the games, including Sonic -- the whole "it'd be better if this bit were like this instead of that" type of thing. There was a lot I wanted to do that I couldn't gauge until someone actually tried making it.
So, at the age of 40, I convinced Sega to let me build a company -- since it's Sega that's behind the company, they're the one publishing the games.
Really, if you're a game creator, no matter how high a position you have in the industry, you need to keep creating.
It's better for the industry, and it's more fun for everybody involved.
The sonic series has a lot of issues, but having Naka back would help some.For me the first thing they have to fix is the music.It is has been just awful, I'd even take the music from the GBA games.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
I can't help but feel that some of you guys have short memories. The Sonic series was showing a dearth of new ideas and had begun to go down the toilet while Naka was still in charge of it. The universally panned Shadow the Hedgehog was overseen by Naka, as was Sonic Heroes which seems pretty unpopular too. Every main series game seemed to be worse than the last while Naka was in charge so I really don't understand why people think Naka returning to Sonic would fix anything. IMHO Yuji Naka is not a Shigeru Miyamoto or Yu Suzuki, whos involvement in a game will virtually guarantee its quality, and he has unfairly taken almost sole credit for the Megadrive Sonic games. The truth is that they were excellent due to the team, not just Naka.
Naka had his chance with the Sonic series and under his leadership it set course straight for mediocrity.
Not to mention his decision not to enable Sonic Xtreme devs to use his Nights engine.
Besides, the man wants to try doing new stuff.
I didn't know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silanda
Between Naka and Miyamoto, I think Naka had the infinitely more difficult job of trying to transition Sonic from 2D to 3D. So you can't judge him too harshly for his failure to return one franchise to it's past greatness.
I have to completely agree.I think Sonic is a type of game that will never be truly fulfilled in 3D.Quote:
Originally Posted by JRedmond3
And Saturn was no N64 which was a pure 3D machine and two years younger (see N64 vs Dreamcast), while Saturn was half a 2D and half a 3D powerhouse.
Plus Miyamoto had the time and resources he needed. Mario 64 was being worked on for many many years (SNES CD-ROM aka PlayStation), while Sonic Team had just finished Sonic 3 (with the release of Sonic & Knuckles) and were still working on Knuckles Chaotix and Ristar when Saturn was released.
How dare he to tell others what to do with his code. And besides Sonic Xtreme clearly showed A LOT of potential:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulstar
I mean... WTF!?
I certainly agree with that. People seem to forget that those individuals that eventually became part of Sonic Team consisted of people that had worked on all kinds of Sega hits - like Alex Kidd and Phantasy Star.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silanda
I'm sure he's credited as a producer or something, but I highly doubt Naka had much of a role in the development of Shadow the Hedgehog. Shadow was developed by Sonic Team USA, while Naka was in Japan. I think Naka was tired of Sonic in the last several years he was at Sega, and cared more about games like Feel the Magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silanda
Also, Miyamoto and Suzuki are hardly free of stinkers in their portfolios.
Why does everyone hate Shadow the Hedgehog so much. Ever mascot gets a spin off. Mario has like 30 different spin offs, racing, sports, etc. Why not use a 3rd person shooter in the style of sonic.
It probably would have worked out better as a mascot in a different type of game if it was on a Sega console, but since it isn't, it is viewed as a sonic game.
People hate Shadow the Hedgehog because it's stupid. At least, I do, anyway.
The Nights engine didn't look particularly good for a 3D platformer... both the Nights based X-Treme demo, and the Sonic levels in Christmas Nights look a bit poor and very limited for a proper 3D platformer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulstar
Sonic R's engine looks MUCH, MUCH closer to being a real 3D platformer... maybe they should have collaborated with Travelers' Tales on a 3D Sonic platformer. (hell, Sonic R looks closer to meeting that than "Sonic World" in Jam -supposedly a prototype of the then-in-development Sonic Adventure for the Saturn)
Then, of course, there's the ray-casting route too, which might have been the best way to get a really fast paced "3D" game for the time not so possible with polygonal rendering. (something along the lines of Sonic Robo Blast -which uses the Doom engine)
Especially if they used polygonal character models rather than bitmaps, it could have been really convincing. (it seems like they might have opted for good, high detail prerendered CGI graphics on 2D tiles though given what the Nights and Fish-Eye engine do -and BUG!)
And that's short of a full 2D, or "2.5D" Sonic game instead. (ie polygonal sidescroller -and probably a lo of high-detail prerendered stuff rather than polygons) Hell, many referred to Yoshi's Story as "2.5D" when almost all of the game was really pure 2D in both rendering and perspective. (in the same respect the Donkey Kong Country games are)
Or why they brought all the common Genesis sonic games over to the Saturn (Jam compilation plus 3D Blast), but not Chaotix or Sonic CD.
Because dark emo omg whats my past who am i better ride a bike and shoot a gun Sonic is just..Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeniczone
well lets just say it would only appeal to small children, who can't see pas the gun.
If you are an employee of a software company it is not your code, it is the company's code. Throwing your toys out of the pram and threatening to quit when the company wants to use code you have written is highly unprofessional IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silanda
Miyamoto lends his name to almost every NCL published game yoy can think of . If its greats it's Miyamoto magic, if its poor oh well that was down to Artoon or the like . Yu Suzuki is a better producer than both, though he's made some poor games over the years. The Big problem was Naka should never have led the Sonic Team, and just stayed on the Technical side of SEGA R&D (that's his real talents) Yoji Ishii should have let the Sonic Team imo
Releasing bad Sonic games is highly unprofessional - especially if you're using code by someone a) who was involved in the original Sonics, and b) who does not want you to use his code for that purpose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silanda
That was part of the Problem . Naka didn't t Code after NiGHTS/Burning Rangers and was moved up the ranks to be CEO of Sonic TeamQuote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
The Huge trouble with Sonic Team games after the death of the DC, was they had 2 year development time frames and we need to be published no matter what ready for the winter season - Where SEGA would use Sonic to push it other products on the back of it. The better approach for SONIC. Would to be to give the development team a 'Soft release data' like with what Happened with RE4 . Give the team the time and to make sure they get it right . Sonic Unleashed is a great game, again rushed out , before it was ready and fully optimised. That said I think Sonic Team will surprise many over the next few years, they have some great concepts and new strategies to get back on track.
Sega never did that. I heard that Sonic 06 and Nights were almost unplayable because they were released unfinished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Not really: undesirable, yes, unprofessional, no. If you are employed by a company to program for them, in most circumstances you do not own your work. You have no say (unless contractually stipulated) over how your work is used. They can do whatever they like with it and it is not unprofessional for them to do so. It might be a courtesy to ask the programmer their opinion but they are in no way obliged to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
If things went down as has been claimed then Naka was quite lucky; a lot of companies, especially western ones, would have told him to pack his bags when he threatened to quit. So called big names in Japanese companies seem to be cut a lot more slack than their western equivalents.
I think this is true for game designers in general. In Japan they seem to be more respected as artists, while in the West they tend to be treated like factory workers on a conveyor belt.
Miyamoto once said that in Japan game designers do the games they want and then marketing comes and tries to sell them, while in the West it seems to him that marketing dictates what games get designed in the first place.
Now, I am sure that to generalize this isn't fair (and Miyamoto was very careful with how he worded his comment), especially since it seems that Japan's gaming industry seems to Westernize itself in parts during recent years.
I wish I could find that quote again.
I never said they did. That's why I'm all for a Soft release date .Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
One that means it only ships , when the developer is happy. Also the problem with Sonic 06 was having the Shinobi PS2 producer working on it , and being totally out of his depth and its showed in the product.
Sonic Unleashed could have been the best Sonic game in years, it was almost there (looking over the dreadful Hub system ) , another 6 months could have made the difference.
Sonic games started to go downhill before the death of hardware Sega. Sonic 3D Blast is a bust, Sonic Adventure and those retarded adventure field bust... I mean it was like they didn't play any of the 6 great Gen/CD games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I disagree. imo Sonic Adv remains the best 3D Platform game I've ever played . I never liked Sonic III or Sonic & Knuckles much myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeniczone
Yuji Naka was a guy who got lucky with a project he was in charge of. I've no idea why the guy whose previous major achievement was porting OutRun to the Master System is practically worshipped by fans - making him out to be some sort of Miyamoto or Steve Jobs type character with Big Secret Ideas and a Long-Term Game Plan is plain wrong, and probably one of the reasons he formed Prope. "What? I can't have my own studio and a hand-picked A-Team? Fuck you, I'm Mister Sonic!" *takes ball, goes home, LET'S TAP!*
When working for 'major' hardware or software houses - Microsoft, Apple, Nokia, HTC, EA, to name a few, not to mention pretty much every globalised engineering firm - a standard employment contract will contain reams and reams of clauses and disclaimers stating that any and all inventions that you produce on company time automatically become property of the company. Sorry, but Yuji Naka didn't own the NiGHTS engine, SEGA did. All it takes is the company's HR rep to say OK, fine, you can throw your teddy out the pram and go form Prope, here's your severance package - we'll just take the contents of your thoughtsandideas.txt, leave your keys and access card at the front desk. Oh, and if you even think about using the lowercase 'i' in an otherwise-capitalised game title, we'll sue you into the stone age. And give me back that novelty Knuckles head keyring, you filthy former-employee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
...the whole point's moot anyway, as Sonic Xtreme was doomed from the beginning, fated only to be a MacGuffin in the stupid stupid stupid bickering between SoA and SoJ.
TO REITERATE: Yuji Naka was a guy who got lucky with a project he was in charge of. I've no idea why the guy whose previous major achievement was porting OutRun to the Master System is practically worshipped by fans - making him out to be some sort of Miyamoto or Steve Jobs type character with Big Secret Ideas and a Long-Term Game Plan is plain wrong, and probably one of the reasons he formed Prope. "What? I can't have my own studio and a hand-picked A-Team? Fuck you, I'm Mister Sonic!" *takes ball, goes home, LET'S TAP!*
What rubbish . I think people look up to Naka more for what he did as a programmer,than as a producer . His PS engine on the Master System was incredible, has was the Sonic engine (never before as a MD game looked so good, looked so colourful or moved so fast ) , and Naka NiGHTS engine was brilliant tooQuote:
Yuji Naka was a guy who got lucky with a project he was in charge of. I've no idea why the guy whose previous major achievement was porting OutRun to the Master System is practically worshipped by fans
I think it was more to do with poor planning and pre Production myself . Not really knowing what kind of game to make, or what system to make it for. Its not great when trying to make a game. I sure if the team stuck to just one platform , it may have been differentQuote:
the whole point's moot anyway, as Sonic Xtreme was doomed from the beginning, fated only to be a MacGuffin in the stupid stupid stupid bickering between SoA and SoJ
I think this may have had something to do with it too:Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
http://kotaku.com/5045996/storytime-...-you-yuji-naka
Thats a good point, for instance fina fantasy games has gone crap without the game classic sound composer and series creator, this demonstrates that most of the time key people makes the difference, as shigeru does on nintendo.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
That's absolutely ridiculous. And wrong: Naka did the coding for countless games - including the original Phantasy Star for Master System, but also quite a few pre-Sonic Mega Drive hits like Phantasy Star II or Ghouls'n Ghosts (which is an excellent port btw, especially considering that he didn't have access to the original source code).Quote:
Originally Posted by Elusive
Well, Moore was the guy who cancelled Dreamcast, then sold Shenmue 2, Panzer Dragoon Orta & co. to Microsoft, only to join them to oversee the Xbox launch. I am not surprised.Quote:
Originally Posted by 16-bit
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...733#post218733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Moore
That's not the impression I get generally. The press and rather a lot of Sonic fans seem to look up to him as the father of Sonic, an image he himself has promoted. That's why the guy annoys me a bit. Hirokazu Yasuhara, Masaharu Yoshii, Naoto Ohshima, who are they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
You can't really count 3D Blast since it was a 3rd party game and more or less just made to keep the Genesis on life support and later ported to the Saturn to try and calm the masses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeniczone
I liked Sonic Adventure, I even enjoyed the Adventure Fields. They were flawed, sure, but it was nice to have an open area where you could run at full speed. Instead of making the levels narrow and racetrack like there should have been more levels that were wide open.
The biggest problem with 3D Sonic games has been that instead of going with what worked and was fun, they've focused on things no one liked and added even more unnecessary elements. Like from Sonic Adventure 1 to 2, they nixed Tails' levels, which were the 2nd best part of the game. And instead of getting rid of the Emerald Hunts, they made them 1/3 of the game.
^ Yeah, both Spinball and 3D Blast: Flickies Island (or whatever its called) were the first Sonic games not designed by Sonic Team but by American and European teams.
But then the press is to blame. Not the guy. He was a coder. A programmer. He wrote the game code and tools, he did not draw the graphics or do the game design itself (although he most likely was deeply involved in the design of each game he programmed).Quote:
Originally Posted by Silanda
Edit: Okay, he also acted as project leader or producer for many games, incl. Phantasy Star II, Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Jam, etc.
If it was simply the case that the press was attributing Sonic to him then that would be true, but he has done it himself. In interviews Naka has called himself the father of Sonic a number of times, and he never seems to play that image down (I wonder if the alleged friction between Naka and Yasuhara has anything to do with this).Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Can you provide me with one single interview where did claim he'd be "the father of Sonic" or even something similar ?
http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/950/950918p1.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Okay, you win.
Still, he was part of the team that created the first Sonic so it kinda makes sense that he considers himself to be one of the fathers of Sonic. I just doubt that he means it as literally as you seem to understand it. Might even be lost in translation.
In dubio pro reo. I just doubt that he'd be so full of himself that he'd not acknowledge the input of other team members - like Rieko Kodama, the lead designer of Phantasy Star I and II, both of which they've been working on together (same for Sonic 1 and 2 btw) before she became director and got her own team and designed Phantasy Star IV.
And I doubt he forgot that Sonic was designed by Naoto Ohshima nor would I think that he tries to take credit for it.
If people don't want to know who created the character then there's only so much you can do.
Probably didn't help that Naka and the rest of Sonic Team worked in the US on Sonic 2 on invitation by Mark Czerny (and thus got the opportunity to talk to the Western gaming press), while Ohshima remained in Japan as the director of the team working on Sonic CD.
Actually, now that I think about it, I heard that Naka actually did design Sonic the game, in that he came up with the concept of "Mario in Fast Forward". He just needed someone to come up with a character that could play the role of Mario.
But then again I also heard that Oshima had the idea of a super fast hedgehog and he just needed a team of talented coders to program the game, so they introduced him to Naka, "the only one who could code a game engine fast enough".
Ugh there hasn't been a good Sonic game since SA and there hasn't been a great one since his Genesis days. It seems IMO as to why Sega keeps churning out crappy Sonic games is because they have been the only Sonic games that consistently sale well. Anything else may or may not sale. I mean look at how much Sega invested in Shenmue and look at the returns from that endeavor. I highly doubt they even broke even with that. Nintendo on the other hand can release Mario when they feel like it as they have other IP that sale a shit load of copies worldwide.
I agree in regards to Shenmue: No way they did break even with that one. But they used the game engine in Yakuza and that sold pretty well, at least in Japan.
I think Sega got a billion of IPs that would sell well.
The few brands they tried to revive had good reasons why they didn't sell.
A game like Panzer Dragoon Orta didn't sell because it was an Xbox 1 exclusive at a time when the console was brandnew and probably less than a few thousand people owned one.
Similar goes for Toejam & Earl. Dreamcast version was pretty much done, just like with Orta, then heavily reworked and sold out to Microsoft as part of the Shenmue 2/Panzer Dragoon Orta/etc. deal and thrown out there as an early Xbox title when maybe five people had one. What a waste.
Golden Axe: Beast Rider didn't sell because ...well it had nothing to do with the original series. Might as well have called it Altered Beast Rider or whatever. Or better yet: Just be honest and call it Beast Rider and that's it. There was zero connection to Golden Axe in the first place. They just tried to cash in on the name.
Thunder Force VI didn't sell well because they didn't even try to give it a worldwide release.
It seems the only thing Sega of America, Sega of Europe and Sega of Japan seem to agree on is Sonic.
Sonic 2 and I think Sonic 3 was design by an American Team, STI. I thought that Sonic 1 was the only Sonic genesis game to be designed by Sonic Team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
I agree with this, these game didn't sell well simply because the original xBox never sold well. Even later in its life it start to pick up but never truly sold all that well. This is probably the first Generation of game console that one or two single consoles don't dominate the over all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Playstation and Playstation 2 cleared the floor of any competition in those generations. SNES and Genesis cleaned out any competition in the 16bit era, same for generations before it. NES pretty much dominated the 8bit era, and Atari 2600 before it. Though I can't really say who dominated the first generation.
Heh, I rather liked Shadow in SA2... not so much in Heroes, though OK again in Shadow the Hedgehog (the voice acting was never as good as SA2 though).Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoVamp
I was thinking Shadow the hedgehog was a pretty mediocre game goign by memory, but a few weeks ago my brother and I picked it up again and I realized it's a damn good 3D platformer with 3rd person shooter aspect in it, more than decent, though not SA or SA2 quality. The bug with falling off the edge with the homing attack is notable, but I'd say it's at least 80% the game that SA or SA2 are. (and that matched what IGN socred i relative to the GC ports of SA and SA2 -their Dreamcast bias shows hugely on the scores for the DC originals of those games though :p)
If you're a 3D platformer and/or 3rd person shooter fan (ie MDK), I'd definitely try it out.
True, but again (as in my previous post) it's really a non-issue as the Nights engine probably would have sucked for a 3D Sonic game anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silanda
They'd have been much better off teaming up with Travelers' Tales given what they managed with Sonic R. (it needs some work, but it seems to have huge potential for a 3D sonic platformer)
Then there's ray casting as an option for a good fast sonic game too. (robo blast)
As it is, both The Sonic R engine and ray casting seem like better options than Nights or that really limited fish-eye engine used on the canceled PC exclusive, or the early Saturn version of Sonic adventure if Sonic World in Jam is any indication -though better than Nights or the Fish-Eye engine at least. (for Nights, you have the X-Treme prototype and the Sonic part of Christmas Nights)
That fish-eye thing really seemed like an enhanced version of BUG! to be honest.
As it was, SoJ eventually started work on Sonic Adventure for the Saturn, but rather late on, and like Shenmue, it got moved over to the DC.
SoJ really should have been pushing a 3D platform game as early as they could though: be it sonic themed or not. (Sonic would be the natural choice though)
At least they got that right on the Dreamcast.
He didn't sell those games to MS, Sega published them for the Xbox, unless I'm gravely mistaken: Moore thought the Xbox was going to sweep the market and it would be in Sega's (and his own) interests to push for them as a 3rd party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Honestly, Sega shouldn't have done that at all: if they were adamant at switching to a 3rd party publisher, they should have expanded their PC market (which didn't really happen), not cancel the DC, but pull back DC specific spending (keeping it as a viable publishing platform and a strongly routed one on the market already -for continued 3rd party licensing as well -and hardware sales), and more gradually transition into 3rd party console publishing. (probably Xbox and GC before going over to Sony -both because of badd blood with Sony and because of ease of cross-platform development for PC/DC/Xbox/GC over the PS2 -as a mass-market developer, they'd eventually have to start going with the PS2 too though)
We don't know the full details on the cancellation of the DC either: all of Moore's interviews point to the fact that it came down to him to handel the discontinuation and related tasks, NOT that it was his decision alone whether to halt the DC or not. In Japan the DC was floundering and my some accounts it was not doing much better in Europe (not sure about that one), though it was doing well in the US, but that would have meant they would be mainly targeting North America as their mainstream market. (I don't really see the problem with that though)
It wouldn't have been until 2002 or so that it would have been clear if the DC would have been viable in the long term or not. (if it was competitive with the GC and Xbox -let alone ahead in market share in some regions, that should have been enough)
3D blast was pretty good for what it was: obviously not going to cater to the 2D sidescroller Sonic fans, but I like it for what it is for sure. (of course, it was a 2nd/3rd party game and not in-house other than the music)Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeniczone
A shame they didn't have that out in 1994 though, that would have been rather significant against DKC in terms of graphics. (even in '95)
Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are amazing 3D platformers: though the adventure field aspect (and chao gardens) are a bit more hit-and miss, it really depends. I'm in the middle: I like the adventure/exploration, but aldo like the linear play of Sonic Adventure 2. I have other friends who are split though: either preferring SA2 by far, or SA1 (usually for adventure field).
The cutscene animation and voice acting are much better in SA2 regardless though. (I prefer the general level design, art direction, music, graphics, and story in SA2 as well -and especially the multiplayer feature)
You mean more like the 3D Mario games (or Croc, Spyro, etc -the early Crash games were a bit linear and narrow iirc) with large levels to explore? (I'm not sure they'd have had the same feel of speed as the style they used in the SA games)Quote:
Originally Posted by JRedmond3
And hell, Mario Sunshine expanded the overworld significantly more in line with the Adventure Field stuff compared to what Mario 64 had, though that was rather like it too, albeit simpler. (of course, you could draw some parallels to the overworld map in Mario Bros 3 or SMW)
I was more disapointed that with Tales (as the mech), it was just teasing you for a SHMUP level (preferable more numerous and detailed than the one in SA1), but you got nothing. :(Quote:
The biggest problem with 3D Sonic games has been that instead of going with what worked and was fun, they've focused on things no one liked and added even more unnecessary elements. Like from Sonic Adventure 1 to 2, they nixed Tails' levels, which were the 2nd best part of the game. And instead of getting rid of the Emerald Hunts, they made them 1/3 of the game.