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Are most black label Genesis games (that aren't first party, save for a few) absolutely shit? I noticed the most insidious, tacky and ultimately dated games on the system tend to be those produced early in the Genesis' life, as opposed to the red label ones which are generally higher quality. Did it really take them that long to learn how to actually make a decent game that didn't look and play like shit smeared on a screen?
Games such as?
Black label games as in: all games produced pre-93?
...cuz if that's what you mean, then NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olls
Exactly. Most of the earlier ones tend to be very badly produced. And despite Sega being responsible for producing most of the notable titles during that period, I can't forget the abominable shit like Super Thunder Blade, Last Battle, and Jewel Master, to name a few. Also, the majority of Renovation's games weren't as hot as I once thought they were, either.
I think it was just that most of them were RPGs and shmups. And RPGs all suck, so you're partially correct.
Strider, Ghouls' N Ghosts Sonic, Streets of Rage, Revenge of Shinobi, Mercs, Phantasy Star II, Quackshot Castle of Illusion, Sonic 2, Golden Axe and I am sure more that I can't think of off the top of my head were all black label games
Two words: HELL NO! Sure, there may be some crappy 3rd-party games released around the Genesis' launch, but when I think of those games, I think of Thunder Force II MD first and foremost. Now THAT is an awesome 3rd-party title released in 1989. I haven't personally found any crappy 3rd-party black label Genesis games, however.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Almost all of those are first party. Most of the third party ones during this era were pretty weak, but then again it's due in part to Sega's lack of support from more respectable developers until they began to pick up the pace worldwide circa 92-93.
Doh! I missed that part. Well there wasn't a lot of third party support at the beginning anyways. I remember Sega Visions making a big deal about having 17 third party publishers in 90 or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Guy, Jewel Master is AWESOME.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Well I can make you some nice updated RED labels for those "not so shitty" Black label games!
The ones you named were all first party. Super Thunder Blade was one of two of the Japanese launch games (1988). Last Battle is another very early Mega Drive game and heavily altered for the US release.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Jewel Master is excellent in regards to game play and music. The graphics sure do suck though.
Edit 1: I would say that by 1993 the Mega Drive's best days were over. Sadly that was when ROMs were getting cheaper and the US market still was expanding. All we got during these later years were some bloated Western games that do look rather nice (even that is debatable) but sound and play bad.
Edit 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ensees_.5B2.5D
1989:
Thunder Force II MD & Herzog Zwei (both Techno Soft)
1990:
Sokoban (NCS/Masaya's first MD game)
New Zealand Story (Taito's first MD game)
Thunder Force III
Phelios (Namco's first MD game)
Batman (Sunsoft's first MD game)
etc. pp.
I just mentioned them as an example of first party games that weren't good, which I suggested existed but were thankfully few and far between.
Early 16-bit games can seem dated for a number of reasons; for one thing, fewer megabits on the cartridge means more reused tiles, often leading to the sort of graphics where you can see the outline of the 8x8 cells in the background textures. And going beyond mere cosmetics, gameplay conventions were different back then, seeing as the notion of what a "typical" game should be had mostly 8-bit games to draw from at the time.
On the whole though; I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree with your opinion. A healthy proportion of my favorite Genesis games are dated 1990 or earlier; however, the majority of the early MD games that people praise to the high heavens on this site are games that I simply cannot see the appeal in. Maybe there's a "you had to be there" factor for some of them, I don't know.
Is this for real?
Some of the best Genesis games are from the early years!!!
I vote against this thread. :rofl:
It's just you.
If you mean best as in clunky and slow, then I'd say no. Might be more of a nostalgia thing. In fact, in my opinion, even games like Shinobi feel almost as sluggish and dull as Altered Beast. Decap Attack was boring, and Strider is much more dull than I remember it to be.
And just before anyone has a fit can we just begin by remembering this thread is merely another rant intended for entertainment and not take it so seriously? :P
Sincerely, my firend, either you're a troll or you've got some weird 16-bit awkward taste.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
I'm curious as to what you'd consider good games against Shinobi, Strider and Decap Attack, some of the best in the system IMO.
Impossible.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
You can rant about stupid stuff, not 16-bit goodness.
Well as far as early games go, I'd put Alex Kidd in the Enchanted Castle over Decap Attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kollision
I don't totally dislike Shinobi btw, just don't like it as much as some other people do. Strider was great back in the day or so it seemed, but I don't really dig it now as I used to, great arcade port nonetheless.
I think for their time they actually look pretty good. This thread is almost like telling Atari fans that the 2600 sucked balls and shouldn't even be considered a game console.
Altered Beast is a great game, I absolutely love it, and it's one of the first games on the console. The quality is great, and even the cart is more vivid and artistic then some of the later ones.
I agree with Kollision, those games kicked some ass.
And Sonic 2 is arguably one of the best if not the best game on the Genesis.. That's a black label.
Oh my...Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
To each his own....
Like I've said if you've payed attention to my words closely I said (that I felt) *most* of those games at that time were weak, not all. And people have a tendency to fawn over some titles that weren't that great, like one previous poster mentioned here. The Genesis has had good and bad titles throughout its entire life, I just think that the best games in my opinion weren't generally the oldest ones just because they were 'classics' or that people cite them just to get 'creds'. Of course it's a personal opinion, but I think the games that really felt alive were during the mid-late era of the Genesis.
What sort of Red label Genesis games are you talking about?
Maybe that could clear some of the confusion up.
I mean, you still had some of the top titles coming in 1994 and 1995, but 1993 and before had some awesome games depending on the genres you like to some degree. You also saw a lot more western games appear on the Genesis around that time and more multiplatform SNES/Genesis games too, albeit many consider some of the more common American developed games to be rather mediocre. (Fantasia, Jurassic Park/Rampage Edition, some of EA's stuff, etc, though that depends on personal preference too)
Just a note: take my albeit unusual description of early genesis games with a grain of salt. I did of course mean it to refer to the pre-93 games in general, not just simply judging them by their label.
And I really don't think most of the western games during this period were that bad either. Not all good games have to be japanese. I think EA had some of their most memorable titles here that weren't sports titles, and there were some decent amiga ports as well.
My favorites around this time are games like: Crusader of Centy/Soleil, Skeleton Krew, Ranger X, Dinosaurs for Hire, The Ooze, Ristar, Tinhead, Pulseman, Socket, Bubble & Squeak, Exo-Squad, Haunting starring Polterguy, Red Zone, Gunstar, Dynamite Headdy, Super Fantasy Zone, Vectorman (which was developed in the west, never released in japan until the VC came along), and many more.
I know you may or may not like these games but it doesn't matter IMHO if you don't find a certain game to be as impressive as everyone else says regardless of its popularity. These discussions are more for observing different points of view than being controlled by someone else's opinion unless you're a sheep. You either see insight in it or don't, and just move on for the most part.
Anyways, alot of those games I mentioned were also first party, but really I think Sega's input during this time was feeling much more lively than it was before (though I think Sonic helped usher in a desire for games with much more energy). Even Shinobi 3 really upped the ante of the series.
I sorta agree with you. Though instead of "all third party black label games sucked" I would say "most third party black label games were not quite as good as first party/red label." Sega made some kickass black label games, and most third party companies got better when the red label came along, but overall, I didn't notice that much of a difference in quality. Again, I think it was just that most third party games were shmups and RPGs.
Hmm, yup, all three of those games are at least "good" quality. I played the hell out of Last Battle (Fist of the North Star in Japan), and just recently picked up Jewel Master because it's got a lot of great qualities actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Actually, scratch that! I'll put Dynamite Headdy as my head-throwing game of choice!Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
The reason I didn't like Decap Attack was that, aside from how novel the theme of it is and the accessible gameplay, it gets boring as you go further on because everything is too alike. I always start off having fun with it, then becoming immensely bored at about the third or fourth stage.
I'm a troll from Altered Beast. That explains it. :rofl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kollision
:lawl:Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
They're actually not that bad, but that's because part of the fun in them to me (as with Altered Beast) is the kitschyness, and can be entertaining when I'm in the mood. Same with Rings of Power.
In the context of when they were released, certianly. Though Last battle is still a pretty mediocre game all around, more so than Altered beast probably, but both at least looked impressive at the time/ (and altered beast is a bit more fun to play 2 player)Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
And another thing is that, not only did you have full 3rd party games, but 2nd/3rd party developed games that were published by Sega. (like Ecco or Thunder Force II in the US)
Didn't Capcom and others also port a lot of their own arcade stuff like strider and let Sega publish it to get around Nintendo's licensing policies?
Any way to take away rep power?Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
No. Most of Sega published Capcom ports for the Genesis were ported by SEGA. Yuji Naka was involved with Ghouls 'n Ghosts.Quote:
Originally Posted by old man
devloped by Nextech/Gau Entertainment for Sega of Japan, 1994Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Core Design UK, 1995Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
again developed by Nextech/Gau for Sega of Japan, 1993Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
developed by Sega of America, 1993 (terrible game imho)Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
developed by Sega of America, 1995Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
developed by Sonic Team, Japan, 1995Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
developed by Spectrum HoloByte USA, published by Microprose, 1994Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
developed by Game Freak for Sega of Japan, 1994Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Vic Tokai, Japan 1994Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
developed by Audiogenic UK, published by Sunsoft 1994Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Novotrade Hungary, published by Playmates/Virgin 1995Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Electronic Arts, 1993Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Zyrinx Denmark, published by Time Warner 1994Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
developed by Treasure for Sega of Japan, 1993Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
developed by Treasure for Sega of Japan, 1994Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
developed by Sunsoft, Japan, released January 1992Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
developed by Blue Sky Software for Sega of America, 1995Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
Here's a list of earlier, "black label" games I think you'd enjoy, loosely based on your list of favorites above, and including many personal recommendations:
-Third Party-
-1990-
Thunder Force III (Technosoft)
Phelios (NAMCO)
Batman (Sunsoft)
Rainbow Islands (TAITO)
Fire Shark (Toaplan)
Dangerous Seed (NAMCO)
Darius II aka Sagaia (TAITO)
MUSHA Aleste (Compile)
Gaiares (Telenet)
-1991-
Gynoug (NCS/Masaya)
Aero Blasters aka Air Buster (Kaneko)
Midnight Resistance (Data East)
Verytex (Asmik)
Langrisser aka Warsong (NCS/Masaya)
Marvel Land aka Talmit's Adventure (NAMCO)
Vapor Trail (Telent)
Devil's Crash MD aka Dragon's Fury (Technosoft)
-1992-
[Super Fantasy Zone (Sunsoft)]
Wani Wani World (Kaneko)
Battle Mania aka Trouble Shooter (Vic Tokai)
Steel Empire (Hot-B)
Alisia Dragoon (Game Arts)
Thunder Force IV aka Lightening Force (Technosoft)
Gleylancer (NCS/Masaya)
Twinkle Tale (WAS/Toyo)
Chelnov aka Atomic Runner (Data East)
TMNT: Return of Shredder aka Hyperstone Heist (Konami)
-1993-
Splatterhouse 3 (NAMCO)
Snow Bros. (Tengen)
Slap Fight MD (Tengen)
Eliminate Down (SoftVision)
Rocket Knight Adventures (Konami)
The Flintstones (TAITO)
Battle Mania 2 (Vic Tokai)
-First Party-
-1989-
Alex Kidd in the Enchanted Castle
Phantasy Star II
Ghouls 'n Ghosts
Revenge of Shinobi
Golden Axe
-1990-
Darwin 4081
Ghostbusters
Columns
E-SWAT
Castle of Illusion
Magical Hat
Shadow Dancer
Wonder Boy III: Monster Lair
-1991-
Bonanza Bros.
Streets of Rage
Mercs
Wonder Boy in Monsterworld
Quackshot
Golden Axe II
Shining Force
-1992-
Magical Tarurūto-kun (aka "Magical Troll")
Chiki Chiki Boys
Crying (aka Bio-Hazard Battle)
World of Illusion
Puyo Puyo
-1993-
Streets of Rage II
Battletoads
Doraemon
[Ranger-X]
Golden Axe III
Shinobi III
[Gunstar Heroes]
McDonalds' Treasure Land Adventure
Columns III
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
I appreciate it it, but I know the Genesis library just as well as you do, not to sound arrogant, but just saying, since I spent many days during Genesis Collective's existence carefully analyzing every title and trying them on an emulator whenever possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
And seriously dude, like I've said before, stop taking this thread so seriously. It was meant as an extremely hyperbolic half-true rant intended to be seen with a sense of irony. :lawl:
Genesis is my favorite 16-bit system, in every era. :love:
Yeah, but the general premise doesn't make that much sense...Quote:
Originally Posted by 5233
There's a huge chunk of the black label stuff that's good too.
The only consistent thing about earlier titles being weaker in is the ROM sizes and the fact that 3rd party support was weaker in several areas. (so of course you'd get more good 3rd party games post blue/red label in the west simply because there were more games in general in that category)
Also note that one or 2 games on your list of favorites never went red label at all as it wasn't released in the US. (Pulseman would be one for sure)
True, but then again I didn't know that internet rants of these sorts were meant to be entirely accurate. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
Anyways, the thing I'm mostly serious about is simply that many of my personal favorite titles are from the post-93 era, not that all early titles sucked. The technical shortcomings of the earlier titles is notable in some regards but of course not neccessarily a factor in the gameplay, though it often has a tendency to make the worst aspects that do already exist within a certain game feel magnified.
lol so now whats better the Purple Label Game Gear games or the none purple ones :P
No, the green master system carts lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Devon
The whole argument is kind of silly. Red label Genesis games came out late in the console's life, so of course they're going to tend to be better. Developers knew the hardware more thoroughly, so they could do more with it.
That being said, there are a ton of black label games that rock.