Ya'll may want to sleep with your mothers, I guess your hindsight mothers are much prettier than mine.
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Ya'll may want to sleep with your mothers, I guess your hindsight mothers are much prettier than mine.
It was clear in 1994 SONY was very serious , Setting up world wide studios and networks doing deals with Namco for home and Arcade hardware and software, getting nearly every 3rd party under the sun not just to sign up for a developer license (which they all do) , but also to developer games for the system . And if that wasn't enough after the system launch in Japan in 1994 no-one should have been in any doubt SONY was in the video games market its a Big way and putting its full weight behind the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
And yes everyone knew about the 32X, Not just the gaming press not just the Hardware SEGA nuts , but anyone who walked into a shop in the spring and summer of 95 could see the 32X was not going to last , and retail wasn't fully behind the system
I think that applies to you . The only person that seemed to think the 32X and Jaguar were doing well months in , everyone else knew otherwise .Quote:
You don't have any idea what the public was thinking about back then, you're just ascribing your own modern opinion on the past
What if you threw in the 32X and SVP chip? With TmEE's modding and programing Skills and Chilly's Programming skills I'm sure they could come up with something.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
No. Here's your rabid anti-32X-ism showing again. It wasn't until Fall of 95 that anyone lost faith in the 32X, and that was ONLY because SEGA made it clear that it no longer had their support - that SEGA was throwing everything behind the Saturn to compete with the PSX.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Winter and Spring showed tremendous positivity towards the 32X - it had a bright and glowing future, with many big titles in the works. The late Spring launch of the Saturn (almost half a year early) caused a lot of confusion, but people were still optimistic about the 32X. After all, it wasn't aimed at the same demographic as the Saturn. Through the summer, we started to see third party devs canceling 32X projects - each with a tale about SEGA pressuring them to drop the 32X to focus on the Saturn, and THAT led to the loss of faith in the Fall. It wasn't until after xmas 95 that retailers started dumping the 32X and games - that last xmas, prices were still fairly high in an effort to recoup their money. As seath mentioned, it was still in the $100 range at most places.
You know, I'm really tired at the moment so my contribution to this thread will be very short for now, but I just want to put this aspect into perspective for this debate, maybe get some people thinking. The biggest issue for me with the 32X and the Saturn in tandem is not over-saturating the market or even competing with each other, I feel an issue that needs addressing and needs more time is the needs and wants of two separate markets, Japan and America. I feel this is the real crux of the issue with both systems, support etc, could these systems effectively split the company in two, the needs of two markets collided I feel, and that was the issue with the 32X and Saturn.
Bar the price in the EU, the 32X seemed far more tailored to the west in its conception and likewise the Saturn for Japan. I remain open in this debate, but people really need to get a grip and tackle these debate analytically and constructively, people are inflaming there passions in this debate when a cool head is needed, and then straw-maning Sheath without conclusively examining what he's trying to get at here, trying to build a much more authoritative picture of the 32X in 94-95. People seem to be repeating these same pre-constructed narratives, regurgitated from the press and internet groupthink mixed with hyperbole and of course a dash of emotional post-Sega collapse angst.
There was a very real buzz around the system, even here in the UK, in Mean Machines I explicitly remember the issue that reviewed quite a few 32X games being cautiously positive (to use a word), and I remember those Lemon and Zyrinx tech demo screen shots along with the Neptune proposal in another issue, I can only say I subjectively was very interested as I can't speak for a whole populous and how they felt about the 32X but the press didn't automatically label the 32X as a piece of shit.
Magazines like EDGE on the other hand gave air to people like Trip Hawkins who could give nice reductive edgy soundbites; do we not forget his statements regarding the abysmal performance of the original Daytona USA? From that standpoint didn't he estimate his own system, the 3DO was on-par technically with the Saturn, since under Daytona the Saturn struggled with 60,000 polys a second? And these for a period where used a barometer of the Saturn's supposed technical inferiority? Whilst also scornfully labelling the 32X as a "stopgap". I'm quite interested how these little quotes make for great copy, but are quite parasitic in how they manage to stick around in the mind of the average consumer. Sega's other problem seemed for a time from about 94-98 a complete inability to control its own PR and came to be under some quite merciless industry gossip and chatter, I also wonder if this has any conclusive bias in the whole Sega narrative in this period. Even Nintendo comparatively seemed a darling to the industry compared to Sega, Nintendo seems to have gotten away quite lightly. But then when as a company your not a shell of your former self like Sega became you have much greater control of your own narrative history. Sega post-DC has never been afforded that much.
Also another point, lest we forget the Sega Neptune. David Braben has even pointed out Darxide was meant to launch alongside the Sega Neptune in late 95', this indicated to me (at the time however fleetingly) Sega was very interested in getting behind the system, and perhaps indicated, btw this is only conjecture and my own opinion, there was another marketing push to come that never came, why would Sega even entertain the whole Neptune idea? Of course things turned out differently, there was something behind the scenes, strings were pulled and the 32X was one string to be cut.
Oh wait that was quite long was'nt it...
Very good points. I think that's probably the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by TVC 15
Yes, the Neptune IS a good indicator that the 32X WAS bigger (at least in the West) than some people want you to think.Quote:
Also another point, lest we forget the Sega Neptune. David Braben has even pointed out Darxide was meant to launch alongside the Sega Neptune in late 95', this indicated to me (at the time however fleetingly) Sega was very interested in getting behind the system, and perhaps indicated, btw this is only conjecture and my own opinion, there was another marketing push to come that never came, why would Sega even entertain the whole Neptune idea? Of course things turned out differently, there was something behind the scenes, strings were pulled and the 32X was one string to be cut.
I have every issue of Means Machines/SEGA and while at the start they were positive and believing all of SEGA Europe Hype including how it was more powerful than the Saturn and could handle VHS standards of FMV. Mean Machines SEGA and Official Sega mag quickly turned on the system , especially Steve on Mean Machines SEGA who was less than favorable to system and the Mega CDQuote:
There was a very real buzz around the system, even here in the UK, in Mean Machines I explicitly remember the issue that reviewed quite a few 32X games being cautiously positive (to use a word), and I remember those Lemon and Zyrinx tech demo screen shots along with the Neptune proposal in another issue, I can only say I subjectively was very interested as I can't speak for a whole populous and how they felt about the 32X but the press didn't automatically label the 32X as a piece of shit.
Well SEGA though it be bigger and was looking for a all in one fix. What next because SEGA made the Wondermega , the Mega CD was BIG in Japan, because Atari had made a all in One combo Jaguar and CD drive , the Jaguar was massive . I seem to remember AT&T showing off a 3DO . Lots of companies will show off hardware and prototypes , but that's what some will only be, if the 1st gen of Hardware doesn't take offQuote:
Yes, the Neptune IS a good indicator that the 32X WAS bigger (at least in the West) than some people want you to think
SEGA had huge plans for the DC, even got it down to single chip and done a lovely deal with Swatch to be able to buy cinema tickets trough the DC and straight to your watch . A whole massive list of plans what will just be that, thanks to sales being not good enough
People just need to expect that while SEGA hoped the 32X would be huge , months in 3rd parties, retail and the press moved on and just weren't impressed .
And, how does that disprove anything I've said or what Sheath's said? Initial reception to the 32X was favourable overall, a few nayersayer here, a few fence sitters there, but overall the press hardly castigated it as a failure at launch. I can't remember anything about them saying it was powerful than Saturn, but then I'am recounting from memory from those issues I had, I don't honestly think anybody thought the 32X was better than the Saturn, Sega's strategy, however ill-thought seemed at least reasonably clear, the 32X for the low end, the Saturn for the high. The issues however where about Sega's clarity on the issue, the needed to categorically state there intentions with the 32X, plenty of people thought both systems where cross-compatible, even including me. When I first got my 32X from a boot-sale cheap I initially thought the 32X carts would be compatible with my Saturn, since the memory carts looked so similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I will say this, Sega actively began turning developers away from the 32X in 95', Chilly has already brough that to the table. In business, and heck in Japan, its known as Martys law after the FM Towns Marty... "if you don't keep offering something to sell, you can't increase sales", if your actively curtailing development for a system you have nothing to sell for that system, everything assosicated with it, PR from new titles drops and you create a self-fufilling snowball where interest in the public begins to wanes because your not creating any interest in that system.Quote:
Well SEGA though it be bigger and was looking for an all in one fix. What next because SEGA made the Wondermega , the Mega CD was BIG in Japan, because Atari had made a all in One combo Jaguar and CD drive, the Jaguar was massive. I seem to remember AT&T showing off a 3DO. Lots of companies will show off hardware and prototypes, but that's what some will only be, if the 1st gen of Hardware doesn't take off.
SEGA had huge plans for the DC, even got it down to single chip and done a lovely deal with Swatch to be able to buy cinema tickets trough the DC and straight to your watch. A whole massive list of plans what will just be that, thanks to sales being not good enough
People just need to expect that while SEGA hoped the 32X would be huge , months in 3rd parties, retail and the press moved on and just weren't impressed .
Look at the Saturn, plenty of people have criticised Bernie Stolar's heavy-handed mis-treatment of the Saturn in the US and western market, by putting the console on damage reduction your effectively sending a shockwave through to the press and the public that you don't even have any confidence in your own system anymore. Its self-fufilling, software release lists begin emptying because 3rd parties have decreasing interest, the consumer sees less and less titles are being sold and released as 3rd party support drops then most interest and support drops even further as the user base gets eroded.
So ? the CD32 sold well at the start , at the start launch sales of the Mega CD were pretty stunning . Months in the story changes and retail and 3rd parties drop the system. I'm sure the 1st year sales of the DC were ahead of that of the Cube and the X-box , but even with that . Retail and 3rd parties were dropping the DC and poor sales in Japan and Europe the year after forced SEGA's handQuote:
And, how does that disprove anything I've said or what Sheath's said? Initial reception to the 32X was favourable overall, a few nayersayer here
SEGA Europe made out otherwise along with utter lies about the 32X could handle VHS quality FMV . Now you go on about Mean Machines , you want me to post what the likes of Mean Machines Steve Merret had to say about the 32X a few months down the line, more so in his Q&A section . Let me tell you its not pretty reading to any 32X fanQuote:
I can't remember anything about them saying it was powerful than Saturn, but then I'am recounting from memory from those issues I had,
Well I have no idea where you got that from . To be fair to SEGA, SEGA officially it was made very clear early in , that the Saturn wouldn't be able to play Mega CD, Mega Drive or 32X games .Quote:
The issues however where about Sega's clarity on the issue, the needed to categorically state there intentions with the 32X, plenty of people thought both systems where cross-compatible, even including me. When I first got my 32X from a boot-sale cheap I initially thought the 32X carts would be compatible with my Saturn, since the memory carts looked so similar.
Only because the system wasn't selling and retail and 3rd parties were dumping the system in their droves . Atari was having developing focus more on the Jaguar than the Falcon , now people like you or chilly may well put that down to Atari. Most will know the real reason was because the Falcon wasn't selling well at retail and Atari had to alter it's plansQuote:
I will say this, Sega actively began turning developers away from the 32X in 95', Chilly has already brough that to the table
Bad and poor example for one BIG reason, at the time of the Bernie dropping of the Saturn, SEGA America had no other system to support and the planned DC was 2 years away from hitting the USA. So you drop your own console and having nothing to offer the console gamer for 2 years . Nice one Bernie , when you had dicks like and the rest of baboons at SEGA America in 32bit age, SONY had to do nothing other than laughQuote:
Look at the Saturn, plenty of people have criticised Bernie Stolar's heavy-handed mis-treatment of the Saturn in the US and western market, by putting the console on damage reduction your effectively sending a shockwave through to the press and the public that you don't even have any confidence in your own system anymore
There are two active torrents for Mean Machines and Mean Machines Sega issues if anybody is interested. I will post the relevant articles in chronological order when I have them. Anybody else can feel free to jump to the end and claim it was always that way though.
That's not a lie - the 32X is MORE than capable of VHS quality FMV. Have you ever bothered to play any of the CD32X FMV games? The TruMotion games in particular prove this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Again we see that unreasoning hatred for all things 32X that clouds your judgement in this one area... you hate it so much you have to lie about it - with lies that are easily disproven! We've had threads here at SEGA-16 on the difference between SCD and CD32X FMV games, and the videos posted for the CD32X easily meet or exceed VHS quality.
This sounds like a slight stretch to me as well but most people nowadays pretend VHS was like watching a film through smoked glass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
The deceit I remember was some cavalier wording in the early advertising it would make one's preexisting MD games better; I also remember magazines remarking on customer complaints about this, which says they must've been pretty prominent since by then all my mag reading (never much) went towards the Playstation.
Do. It'd be an interesting read and sheath wants more facts.Quote:
Now you go on about Mean Machines , you want me to post what the likes of Mean Machines Steve Merret had to say about the 32X a few months down the line, more so in his Q&A section . Let me tell you its not pretty reading to any 32X fan
Looking at Fahrenheit, Night Trap and Supreme Warrior on my HDTV, I would also say that the 32X CD FMV quality was at least VHS quality. The only digital quality above that at the time was the 3DO (More RAM) and CDI, plus Laserdisk. All of which are "better" than VHS quality, but possibly not by a huge measurable degree. I'd put Laserdisk up against 90s DVDs anyday though. Side Track!Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
Your sanity is like a breath of fresh air on a cool morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
Please, PM the links to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Mean Machines Sega on the 32X, December 1994. I usually hesitate to cite company specific magazines in any way, but more and more I am realizing they were staffed by the same "highly qualified professionals" as the multi-platform magazines. Bottom Line: Lots of Money Spent By Corporations.
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@ pg 3: so 16 bitter's real name was Angus Swan?
This magazine's clear horseshit, I didn't read everything but they guaranteed Sor 4 and that write-up of Keio Yugekitai is sheer delusion.
Definitely aimed at a younger audience I would say. I haven't read everything yet, but most of the 32X stuff I browsed was pure promotion. The Q&A stuff was horribly formatted but informative.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
It certainly is another piece of evidence that nobody in the industry at the time thought the 32X could outclass the Saturn in any way.
You'll also notice that they were saying the Saturn wouldn't be out for "ages" and recommended getting the 32X in the meantime. That was the opinion of virtually every magazine in late 94/early 95 in the US and UK.
And yes, the game scores are high. Clearly SEGA made sure they got their bribe like all game magazines before and since. As long as you don't piss off the people at the magazines, ALL games are ranked on a scale of 8 to 10... sometimes 9 to 10. :D
Any time you see a game under 8 (or 4 if using the 4 to 5 scale), it's a clear indication the distributor pissed off the magazine, like by forgetting their bribes.
Sometimes a lower score will have better content in the actual text of the view, or higher reviews will have ridiculously out of place complaints in the text. I tend to ignore the scores entirely and look in the text for details on how much the reviewer played the game.
Looking over the Mega Drive can't even handle a screen res to that a VHS video , 256 colors does not equal VHS standards - That's how it was sold that the 32X would be able to handle FMV like that of a VHS video . I played many PC games on my old Dos and 256 does not come close to VHS quality in the way SEGA tried to sell itQuote:
That's not a lie - the 32X is MORE than capable of VHS quality FMV. Have you ever bothered to play any of the CD32X FMV games
Nice one , Why no scans of Mean Means SEGA a few months down the Line Seath ? Let old TA help you and unlike this board doesn't need our friend Google, because he owns the stuff in question . Was buying hardware and games at magazines the time time, remembers exactly what happen very well and still sad enough to hold on to all of itQuote:
Mean Machines Sega on the 32X, December 1994
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And on the shopping front it really wasn't much better
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Well as the above scan will prove. Mags were staring to change their tune on the 32X and start to save for the Saturn , before the Saturn hit our streets while the 32X was letting everyone down and the 2nd wave of sofware not up to much along with piss poor 3rd party software . or does one really need to post other scans of Mags , the like SEGA's mag, SEGA pro , Gamefan Ect .Quote:
You'll also notice that they were saying the Saturn wouldn't be out for "ages" and recommended getting the 32X in the meantime. That was the opinion of virtually every magazine in late 94/early 95 in the US and UK.
TA, I just figured I'd take it easy on the bandwidth and post a mag a day at a time, giving people time to discuss each issue. Thanks for posting more.
Care to share what issue that is? The prices don't look much different to me. Hardly fire sale discounts.
The 32X can do 320x204 in 15-bit direct color... which is well beyond most VHS specs. The only thing VHS has that the 32X doesn't is interlace, and interlace doesn't extend the resolution that much, and only vertically, which is unimportant in most cases. VHS is only about 260 lines horizontally, and only about 12 bit for color (It's YIQ filitered asymmetrically, so it's harder to make exact comparisons other than it's better than 256 color, but not as good as 15-bit color).Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I can post ever issue mate, and those scans are from MM Sega July and June 95 and already Steve and the Gang were talking of don't buy a 32X. Retail had minimal support for the 32X and the games and the system discounted (even the Mega CD were less than 4% of the Market share had better support, which says its all) . I'll post latter issues if I must and its not pretty reading for 32X.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Maybe if people recorded in Lp. But Pal VHS is way more than 320X204 so don't come it on that one , even a CDI with Video Card couldn't really offer quality to that of VHS on its Video CD's . It was quite easy to tell 32X video apart from VHS video .Quote:
The 32X can do 320x204 in 15-bit direct color... which is well beyond most VHS specs.
This is getting sad, I'll start looking at January 1995 probably tomorrow morning. I suppose I'll find more than what TA dug up in the June and July issues as well.
Look its all very well being a fan of a system, but sometimes you just have to accept the cold hard facts . I love the Mega CD and the Saturn, but know in my hears of hearts the Mega CD sold like crap in Japan, it didn't really sell that great in Europe and Mega/SEGA games the world over only ever made up a tiny percentage of the sales charts , or how the Saturn sold really poor in the West and after a year and a bit had pretty much dire 3rd party support and that was reflected in press coverage and going to the shops.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Maybe with out SONY SEGA could have got away with the 32X and Saturn, but SONY blew apart all of SEGA plan's for the 32 bit generation.
Its sales can't be much higher than it achieved anyway, they can't very well sell more Mega-CDs in Japan than Mega Drives can they?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
The Mega Drive itself didn't sell particularly high amounts there in the 1st place, so even with 100% penetration it wasn't going to sell any more than three and a half million odd there at maximum.
30% odd of Japanese Mega Drive owners bought a Mega-CD, I think that's fairly respectable.
Nope! VHS is incapable of going higher than about 260 lines horizontal, and 260 is the TOP END for high-end models. SVHS is needed to go beyond 260, and normally tops out at about 400. VHS is interlaced, so it does do better vertically - the standard rule for interlaced resolution is 80% of the two fields, or 0.8*480 (384) for NTSC; however, part of that is lost to overscan with it being closer to 360 visible. Most people prefer horizontal detail to vertical detail, and prefer progressive scan (which the 32X is) over interlace (which VHS is). 320x200 progressive 15-bit is MUCH more pleasing to most people than 260x360 interlaced YIQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
While PAL has more vertical detail than NTSC, it also has more flicker, being 25 Hz frame rate (50 Hz field rate). I would think progressive would be even MORE important to Europeans than Americans due to that. They were first to make TVs that ran at twice the scan rate (100 Hz) in an effort to get rid of that annoying flicker.
Perhaps that's why you think VHS looks better: you're looking at a decent VHS deck via SCART on a 100 Hz TV with PAL. If you're going to do that, you should also look at the 32X via RGB/SCART on the same 100 Hz TV as well.
Doesn't TA use RGB SCART for everything though? I remember specifically that he bragged about it when going on and on about the 1080p mesh used in Sonic R for transparencies.
Mean Machines Sega January 1995. Definitely still pure promotional PR at a glance, but plenty of other companies were still interested in the add-on.
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January 1995 issue of Mean Machines Sega on 32X is the last post on the previous page.
Also, I'm finding evidence online that the previous historical currency conversion tools I used might have been incorrect. It is possible that 150-180 British pounds at the time was .69-.65 US dollars. Which would mean that the 32X was cheaper in the UK than it was in the US, where I have shown it to be cost effective.
I am using the following tool, and from what I can tell, the 32X should have been cheaper in the UK than in the US from December 1994 to February 1995. Meaning, if I wanted to import a UK 32X at the time I would have payed 35% more for it.
http://www.oanda.com/currency/historical-rates/
February Mean Machines Sega, a touch less promotional, more matter of fact (and accurate at a glance), Cosmic Carnage got a bad review.
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Also, whoever scanned these Mean Machines magazines needs a full time job somewhere at six figures. The OCR PDFs make it exceedingly easy to find anything relevant to any product.
Well I'm British and RGB Scart was the way to go for the older systems and VHS videoQuote:
Doesn't TA use RGB SCART for everything though?
Nothing Perhaps about it . Normal Play VHS video wiped the floor with 32X Video , and was better than CDI Video CDQuote:
Perhaps that's why you think VHS looks better:
Give it a rest Seath, Mean Machines was all for the Mega CD before it launched, different story before it came out . Now try posting some of the latter SEGA Mean Machines Mags and remember than Means Machines likes most mags were a couple of months in front actual date on the Magazine . Now try posting Mean Machines SEGA from May 1995 onwardsQuote:
Mean Machines Sega January 1995. Definitely still pure promotional PR at a glance, but plenty of other companies were still interested in the add-on
You give it a rest TA, you clearly don't even understand what I am looking for because you are so convinced of your own opinion and memory. Chronological order is the way it actually happened.
Does VHS even benefit from RGB? I thought only SVHS benefited from a better video connection and that was only S-Video.
Seriously, I'm sorry, but am I missing something here?
As far as I've seen all Sheath has actually done in this thread, is denounce 15 years worth of 32X journalism, put forth an unsubstantiated opinion, and then fail to back it up with any evidence at all.
Can someone just condense this 40 page thread into some bullet points?
Sure:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
- 32X Sucks
- No it doesn't!
- Yes it does!
- No it doesn't!
- Yes it does!
Repeat indefinitely.
That is what it boiled down to with TA and DA to be sure. If I wasn't so annoyed with the modern perception of facts having no bearing on history, I'd be laughing about it.
NewGuy, the other side has completely failed to prove anything as well. Jumping to the end of the story and jumping up and down is not a logical argument or an effective historical narrative. What I have shown so far is that the same journalists who would later create the "add-ons split markets and are stupid" narrative started out promoting it, even clamboring for it. The problem with the "other side" in this is that they want to delete historical facts to support their emotional opinions.
Journalists are required to give every new system a chance, they're not going to start hating on 32X before they've even played on one, they form an opinion based on what they experience afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
After they'd spent a few months playing on them they made their decision about the machine sucking, and being a mistake, and reported this to the public.
This was mentioned earlier, all machines have positive launches, the GX4000 arrived to positive coverage.
But surely if add-ons were known to be bad ideas they wouldn't have promoted the 32X so actively. That is a detail you keep missing. There is the "wait and see" early promotion that journalists frequently use, and then there is more active promotion, which the 32X received. This is significant, because nobody forced them to be optimistic of the 32X even if they were forced to report on it positively. Another thing people don't seem to understand is that negativity is_not any more objective than positivity.
Either way, TA's selection of negative statements over the 32X from Mean Machines does several things. It adds to the credibility of the magazine as a primary source, as by summer of 1995 there were indeed a lot of doubts about the 32X's future. It proves that TA is proof texting the past, because I had to ask him what issues those comments were from and because he was using them as a catch all for the attitude for the 32X.
I have Mean Machines Sega March 1995 uploading now. There is a lot more this time, so it will take several posts as I see the thread move to more pages.