so all there is missing for the 32X via Saturn is video which the Saturn has. You clearly mis-read what I wrote, I didn't say the 32X is the Saturn, I said the Saturn already has the hardware the 32X needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly Willy
so all there is missing for the 32X via Saturn is video which the Saturn has. You clearly mis-read what I wrote, I didn't say the 32X is the Saturn, I said the Saturn already has the hardware the 32X needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly Willy
No, the Saturn is nothing like the 32x... let alone the genesis and CD (you need the Genesis to be fully supported for any 32x game and CD for CD32x support).Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
There's almost nothing in the Saturn that would cater to supporting any of that hardware as-is, it would need to be almost completely overhauled and/or have a ton of costly hardware tacked-on for no other purpose. (unlike a machine designed from the ground up to be efficiently evolved from the MD+CD hardware)
The memory mapping is all wrong (bus design, etc), the RAM itself is wrong, the CD interface is wrong, there's none of the audio or video/graphics hardware present from the MD, 32x, or Genesis (one of the most expensive single components of all of those next to RAM), the CPUs are either missing, incompatible, or configured differently (everything's the wrong clock speed, the 68k used is not fully compatible with the MD or CD 68k, and you're missing the Z80 and 2nd 68k), etc, etc.
Modifying the Saturn to be MD/CD/32x compatible would likely have pushed its cost well over $500 in 1995, let alone R&D costs to hack that together, etc.
A cost-effective backwards compatible design (of reasonable performance) could have been made for sure, but the Saturn is not even close to that...
And in such a case, the 32x would be much less necessary anyway. (you'd have the MD, CD, CDX/other Duos, and the fully compatible "Saturn" complementing those and easing development -to some extent- for most experienced MD/CD developers and probably easing enhanced ports/remakes of MD/CD games as well)
Actual final price point/cost is dependent on overall feature set (especially RAM content -but also other added hardware) and if they went overboard it would have been just as expensive as the Saturn, but certainly could have been configured to be much cheaper. (lower R&D costs and cheaper hardware in some areas at least, but more so if they actually tempered the final feature set and RAM used -with room expansion for later- though as I already said in my previous post, the Saturn could have been pushed in that direction too, but without the compatibility or accelerated development/reduced R&D costs from a smooth evolutionary design -but also more powerful in some areas than a backwards compatible design could have been at reasonable cost... whether that power would have been really obvious is another matter though)
:|Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
again, you guys are misreading what I posted. I didn't say the Saturn is the 32X, I said it has all the necessary hardware the 32X would need to run 32X games (not Genesis, not SEGA CD, but 32X!)
please look back what I wrote, because I believe my theory still holds if you follow what I wrote closely and take the 16-bit systems out of the picture as I am not talking about them at all.
The Saturn and 32X could have operated as a single system if they were configured in that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sega Saturn technical specifications
Quote:
Originally Posted by 32X technical specifications
But the 32X CANNOT operate w/o the Genesis. The Saturn's 68000 is a 68EC000 which is different from the standard Genesis chip. The Saturn doesn't have the Z80 chip neither. :daze:Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
* Compatibility: Compatible with Mega Drive/Genesis models 1 and 2, JVC Wondermega/X'Eye and the Multi-Mega/CDX. The 32X does not work with the Genesis 3 which lacks some of the necessary interface logic.
EDIT: added this response
No, you're missing my post, the most important part being:Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
The memory mapping is all wrong (bus design, etc), the RAM itself is wrong, the CD interface is wrong, there's none of the audio or video/graphics hardware present from the MD, 32x, or Genesis (one of the most expensive single components of all of those next to RAM), the CPUs are either missing, incompatible, or configured differently (everything's the wrong clock speed, the 68k used is not fully compatible with the MD or CD 68k, and you're missing the Z80 and 2nd 68k), etc, etc.
The 32x needs ALL of the Genesis hardware to work properly (OK, not the SMS compatibility block of the VDP, but pretty much everything else from the VDP to the 68k to Z80 to PSG), and any CD32x game also requires ALL of the Sega CD's hardware.
If it didn't make use of the MD/CD hardware, there would have been absolutely no point in it being an add-on rather than a totally new system.
Now, Sega COULD have released the 32x as a bare bone/standalone unit, but it would have been weaker if they didn't add more to it, and if you wanted to make it forwards compatible with the Saturn, it would have made the most sense to use derivatives of the Saturn hardware... and then you get closer and closer to the Jupiter idea. :p (as above and below) But in the simplest sense it could have been even simpler than the Jupiter I described and more like the plain 32x: maybe just the 32x but with VDP1 coupled with the Super VDP (much simpler than VDP2 -you could probably omit the Super VDP's fill function and RLE modes as well) and add more RAM (maybe 512 kB or 1 MB CPU SDRAM and 512 kB for the VDP plus framebuffer RAM) same PWM sound and cart bus and dual SH2s... preferably keeping memory map as close as possible to the Saturn (and the same cart slot of course) to facilitate compatibility.
Cutting things down to that degree might have made a cart system more feasible than CD-ROM. (ie not enough RAM to overcome the limitations)
And that would have still split the market... the main reason a cut-down Saturn would have been better than any dual option. (RAM/coprocessor expansion would also split the market later on, but that's a smoother transition than the Jupiter idea -especially a super cut-down jupiter)
And that's on top of the MD, CD, SMS (in some regions), and GG being supported already. (that's another thing that an evolutionary/CD/MD based consle would smooth out a bit -in terms of users, 1st and 3rd party software developers, and marketing from Sega themselves)
In that case, even if Sega had the baseline MD/Genesis, CD add-on, Duo/CDX (duo would be a cost-cut machine cheaper than the MD+CD), and Saturn alternative, you could be sure to have support for all of those games on the new system and each successive system would be fully compatible with the preceding one. (NEC almost did that with the PCFX... and in hindsight, PCE/CD/SuperCD/ArcadeCD probably would have been pretty significant for the popularity of the PCFX -easily could have been SGX compatible too... and that's another thing NES screwed up: SGX not an add-on and not included in the Duo, but that's another story ;))
Marketing was certainly part of it, but only part of the picture... and not just marketing, but problematic management of both consoles after the fact. (in leu of the Saturn, the 32x was really out of place... had the Saturn development been delayed -as SoJ was concerned of at some point- it could have made more sense, though you could argue the CD/MD alone would be a safer bet to "hold the fort" let alone potential for less cumbersome/costly add-ons and/or enhanced/"chipped" carts)Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
The problems with the 2 systems are numerous from hardware issues/limitations, development tools/support, timing/planning of the releases, overall marketing, managing of phase out of both (rather abrupt and premature... though cutting off the MD and Game Gear also hurt), then the 1st party software issues, parallel and related conflicts between JP/US/EU, changes in managment, etc, etc, etc. (the reasons behind some decisions and the actual extent of internal conflicts haven't been properly documented yet AFIK, and that's one interesting area from a historical standpoint, let alone possible alternative hardware and software options that are unknown -various prototypes, canceled designs, etc- and the new information on Atari History in the past couple years really shows just how much can be lost or misinterpreted over the years without solid documentation/records)
And of course there was Sony making some unexpected moves which made Sega's position much worse on top of their problems -which they otherwise could have recovered from, especially with Nintendo's own mistakes, and NEC's. (Sega was either caught off guard due to arrogance or internal problems distracting from the big picture)
You're splitting the market though... and the Genesis (in spite of its disadvantages -some of which could be overcome with better programming, especially the sound -very few developers seemed to push good Z80 driven PCM) was still close enough to reasonable compete with the SNES on that market for cross-platform titles, let alone exclusives... and let alone the Sega CD's added capabilities (which also had yet to be fully tapped with few exceptions).Quote:
Genesis was old hat by '95 and looking back now it probably would have been a better decision to freeze it and SEGA CD. Which make up the 16-bit market, and focus on the 32-bit market. 32X and Saturn.
The Genesis had a strong established userbase and the CD was already there (they could have done better up to 1994, but there was still a fair bit of room to push it -if that failed, go MD only into the late gen market).
The late gen/budget market is a big cash cow for any major market system as it has the brand recognition, a ton of games for re-release, and enough lingering 1st/3rd party support to be extremely profitable in the late gen.
CD was good for the hardware enhancements and for the high capacity, low cost media. (tons of potential for high profit margins as a late gen budget platform, and tons of potential for compilations/re-releases of Genesis games at lower cost and/or with added content compared to contemporary carts -a few games would be impractical due to ROM size, but some of those could have been attractive to push for combo cart+CD games with CD expansions -one I mentioned before is SSFII)
It may be the least exciting time for users, but it's one of the most critical money makers for the company: hardware (game media and consoles) is cheaper than ever to sell but cheaper still to make with higher profit margins -selling hardware for a profit rather than at cost or loss. (and selling lots of re-released games and perhaps more pack-in options).
That's what happens with almost every popular platform ever made: 2600, NES (SMS in Europe and Brazil -still sold to this day by Tectoy), SNES, MD/Genesis (did happen to a fair extent, but not nearly as cleanly or as long as it should have), PS1, N64 in the US, PS2, Xbox 360, PS3 (the latter 2 now selling hardware at a profit), Wii etc -albeit the Wii got a boost from being very profitable from the start, but it's still getting more so as it ages. (from a business standpoint, it was dumb of Microsoft to drop the Xbox when they did given it was finally turning net profits, but from a marketing/prestige standpoint it made more sense... or it would have if not for the horrible problems the 360 had... you could even argue it was a bad idea for Nintendo to not push the GC in the late gen/budget role -especially given how simple it would be to port most Wii games- but that might not have been worth it as much as forcing GC owners to upgrade to Wii -especially with the Wii itself being sold for a hefty profit unlike the 360 and PS3, and there were other issues that forced the discontinuation of the GC like the lawsuit over the GC controller design -which eventually favored Nintendo but froze controller production for a time or at least made it problematic)
So yes, the Genesis was old hat in the mid/late 90s, but that's no reason not to push it... Having more money on hand is never a bad thing.
One topic that's come up before is Nintendo's continual focus on profitability while Sega was inconsistent about that. (at times focusing more on revenue and growth than profitability and stability... the spending and growth were critical in managing the Success they had the the Genesis, but not reaping the high profit late gen rewards hurt that a lot on top of everything else)
No, it's not based off the Saturn at all... it has come vague superficial similarities with the CPUs, but that's it. (but I already addressed that above)Quote:
32X hardware is essentially based off the Saturn. So the Saturn had all the tech of 32X inside of it, even a cartridge port. But SEGA didn't go all the way with the concept which I see as a mistake on their part.
The 32x was never intended to last long, and by '98 the Saturn (and PSX) were $100 already with much more to offer than the Neptune ever could have.Quote:
and with that thought in mind, the standalone 32X they were working on, the Neptune. Makes even more sense now, which I could see being released later down the road like in '98 or '99, in years when most of the old Genesis stock, and 32X adapters are gone. A reasonable priced Neptune at $89 would have been good (presuming that the Saturn itself is somewhat a success, and there are numerous more 32X games made along side Saturn CD games that warrants demand for a standalone 32X).
The time to release the Neptune would have been in 1994 along with the 32x and possibly phase out the MD in favor of the Neptune, but that would have made the Neptune more expensive than the Genesis by a good margin and compromised late gen budget sales as well as splitting the market more. (A CD duo likewise would have been more expensive, but had existing software/development support and would have made for cheaper games)
If they did want to go with a machine that was forwards compatible with Saturn and was cart based, the Jupiter would have made more sense. (cut-down cart based Saturn with expansion support for a Saturn compatible module) But that's also splitting the market and straying from CDs... and ignoring the high profitability of the old Genesis and (potentially) CD in the mid/late 90s.
A cut-down CD based Saturn (with RAM expansion alone -or maybe RAM+coprocessor expansion -floating point would have really helped with quad based 3D) would have made more sense than the Jupiter, or even a western specific lower-cost version of the Saturn with cut-out features and external expansion to full Saturn spec. (that would have been messier than a lower cost Saturn across the board)
in 1998 the PlayStation was $149 and the Saturn was already dead here in the US. But my post was a hypothetical if Saturn didn't bomb and SEGA didn't suffer a huge backlash that they did which I believe is from how they marketed the 32X and Saturn.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
Uh, all that's missing is an entire Genesis console. The Saturn and 32X don't share anything other than a 68000 and two SH2s. For a Saturn to play 32X games, it would need everything that is in the Genesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
why would it need to be compatible with the MD or CD. You don't think SEGA would have built 32X into Saturn so that the 32X's 2 channels would mix into the Saturn's 32 slot 8 channels. Making the potential for 32X games to sound even better when off the Saturn. You're not using your imagination well. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
edit: also how is the RAM, CD interface even an issue. The Saturn would essentially go to 32X mode with a cartridge inserted and the 32X would be using the Saturn's video RAM.
The Genesis' Z80's 10 channels are only thing lacking. I'm sure SEGA would have made it so 32X sound mixed with the Saturn's MC68000Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly Willy
You're imagining a totally different 32x... the historical 32x used every aspect of the Genesis hardware, genesis compatibility would have been absolutely necessary for 32x compatibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
And that's just for cart 32x games, for 32xCD games, you'd need to preserve full MD AND MCD functionality on top of the 32x hardware for compatibility with CD-32x games of any sort.
You'd need all the genesis video/cpu/memory/audio/IO hardware and the added MCD hardware plus the 32x's Super VDP (if VDP1/2 couldn't emulate it), etc, etc. Plus you'd have a much weaker expansion system if you were stuck with the genesis cart slot. (even if you remapped the pins for Saturn mode, that's still a fraction of the pin count the Saturn has)
Also: note that the Saturn always has 32 voices/channels... but you can pair them in any combination to use as FM operators (using any waveform in wave RAM, not just sine or limited stuff), so the "8 channels" is really misleading and untrue. (unless you wanted to emulate the YM2151, which would be an extreme waste of the hardware)
And the 32x only has 1 channel, 1 stereo channel that is, with software mixing to any number of channels. (much more practical with DMA enabled -chilly willy's sample synth engine managed 32 channels iirc -using the slave SH2)
RAM/memory map is absolutely critical for compatibility: they'd have had to rearranged the entire system, added more RAM (and different types of RAM), different interfaces, etc, etc. All more R&D and cost to manufacturing. (even if you could make do with the Saturn's existing RAM -which you probably couldn't- you'd need a ton of added logic to interface it in a MD/CD/32x compatible manner)Quote:
edit: also how is the RAM, CD interface even an issue. The Saturn would essentially go to 32X mode with a cartridge inserted and the 32X would be using the Saturn's video RAM.
It's a hell of a lot more than having the necessary components: it's having them in a compatible configuration. (and as it is, the Saturn is missing most of the components needed for the 32x, let alone the proper configuration)
No, again you'd need a hell of a lot more than that... the Z80 has no sound channels BTW, it's a CPU (not limited to audio and not required for audio -and could drive PWM sampling -maybe does in some games), the MD has some 10 (ish) hardware channels from the YM+PSG and then software mixing for multiple PCM channels.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
But sound is the least of your worries since you have all that video, CPU, and memory mapping to deal with (all at clock speeds totally incompatible with the Saturn and not able to be emulated by the Saturn without an extensive redesign or a ton of tacked-on hardware).
Almost every single 32x game makes use of the Genesis VDP for some BG or sprite stuff (sometimes most of the display is MD -Chaotix only does sprites on the 32x, all else is MD -and PWM).
Again, you'd need to fully emulate the MD and CD (for CD32x) as well as 32x as interfaced with those 2, to have compatibility inside the Saturn. (and the Saturn isn't even close to that)
If the Saturn didn't bomb, there would have never been a need for the 32x anyway... (edit, this first stament really doesn't make sense as such... I was mainly commenting in the mindset of the Neptune being a useful addition in '98 and such being moot if the Saturn was a big success) it just wasn't marketing, that was only a small part of it. 32x was unnecessary and excessive in leu of the Saturn... and would have been much more so if the Saturn had been designed more efficiently and minimalistically.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
32x/Mars compatibility on the Saturn would mean a totally different Saturn and/or 32x/Mars design. (and in a number of more feasible alternatives, you'd be better off with just a more efficient/cheaper/modular Saturn -backwards compatible or otherwise)
Correction, if the 32X hadn't been released, it's quite possible that the Saturn wouldn't have bombed.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
The theory you're laying out with that sentence structure is some real Twelve Monkeys Cassandra Complex shit -- that Sega released the 32X with the foreknowledge that the Saturn would bomb before they ever released it, with the added paradox of helping to guarantee the latter's failure through the former's creation -- Sega, yes, was some kind of idiot-savant, mad-genius clusterfuck of an arthouse posing as an electronics company, and the real nature of the dichotomy may have been East Versus West.
hold on pal, I'll have to stop you right there. I'm talking about the Saturn playing 32X and Saturn CD games. Not Genesis, Sega CD, or 'Sega CD 32X' which you're about to talk about.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
You're right I am imagining a totally different 32X, this 32X isn't a Genesis add-on, or standalone Neptune, what it is, it's a feature of Saturn. The Saturn's ability to play 32X games, not Genesis games, not Sega CD games and certainly not 'Sega CD 32X' games as that's redundant when you can just buy Saturn CD games. This is all I'm talking about.
This is what I once thought Saturn could do back from the suggestions put out from my old '94-95 Game Informer mags but I later learned SEGA didn't go through with including 32X support in Saturn.
What surprised me the most was finding how the technical specs of the 32X was pretty much derivative of what the Saturn had on a large scale which begs the possibility that Saturn could have handle 32X games if SEGA went in that direction and completed the design of Saturn in that way. Most of the hardware is already there. You can read it right from the Wikipedia technical specs and compare it.
You're thinking of the proposed Jupiter console - it was supposed to be a Saturn without the CD+SH1, and without as much ram. It would play "Saturn" carts, while the full Saturn would play both the carts and CDs. That was only ever a proposal, and you're an idiot for calling it the "32X" as they're not remotely the same thing, and never were, even in proposals.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamegenie
Of course, I mean that in only the kindest way. We're all idiots at one time or another. :D