Why did SEGA make 3D Sonic vunerable to water

This is at the core of what killed Sonic's transition into 3D. Making falling into water an instant death was a poor move on the craft point of every Sonic 3D game.

I read so many comments about how Mario was just made for exploration more than Sonic, no he's not. Nintendo wasn't stupid enough to add large pools of water in Super Mario 64 that once Mario jumped in he died. Instead they included Mario's swimming ability and that became the action Mario took once he was in water.

Now why on earth did SEGA fail to add Sonic's ability to encounter water and move through it. He was able to do so in Sonic 1, 2, & 3.




Something to ponder about. Sonic 3D adventure would have been much better if SEGA put more thought into Sonic's 3D transition.

Didn't 2D games had bottomless pits under water at some places?
Just had a though. (*Goes from this thread)

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Originally Posted by Foxysen

Didn't 2D games had bottomless pits under water at some places?
Just had a though. (*Goes from this thread)

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Yeah, so did the SMB games,

,but Labyrinth, Aquatic Ruin, and Hydrocity zone (water zones of Sonic series) weren't just one big bottomless pit.

You're right; but I think the reason it hasn't been done is because Sonic Team are lazy bastards.

The only 3D level I know off the top of my head that does include water that doesn't cause instant death is Sonic Adventure 2's Aquatic Mine.

The only way Sega could get Sonic to sign an extended contract was to get rid of water levels.

He joined the platform game heroes union and they have a strict "no water levels" policy.

Not all the Water is instant Death, just the water thats very deep in Oceans and that. There are plenty of pools and what not in other levels you can go into and not die instantly.

To be honest I have not had a problem with most of the 3D Sonic Games. I find them just as enjoyable as the 2D ones. Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors are all good Sonic Games.

says it all he would clearly just go around in circles then fall upside down

Short answer:
Gameplay reasons.

Long answer: because it creates a definable boundary within the level; 'don't go here, go on the sandy bit of beach where it's safer. Oh look, there's a bit over there that looks like you can run through it, let's go run through it', etc. without resorting to invisible walls. Stay off the water, it's bad for you. Good player, have a 1-up.

Alternatively, we could GO BACK TO THE GOOD OLD DAYS and deal with underwater player-vision cameras, jumping to catch air bubbles in 3D space (remember, depth perception in 3D is tricky, it's why jumping puzzles and crate-stacking puzzles in FPS' are an abomination), and finding a way of hiding the fact you're basically in an underwater box whilst making it interesting and fun to play. Sonic 2's Metropolis Zone is incredibly complex, but I doubt you need a map to get to the end. Even with those bloody punching-crab things, or exploding pointy starfish.

Need a boss fight arena? You're on a platform surrounded by water. The challenge is to attack the boss without falling in, because water=danger! Need a way of showing off your graphics engine and getting the game off to a running start? Level 1 is a beach level, and we all know how to do the beach level - it's a Sonic game.

And and, outside of gameplay it's a character flaw. Tails engages mouth before brain, Knuckles fights first & asks questions later, Sonic can't swim. Mary-Sue characters that are literally perfect individuals aren't any fun.


Comedy option: you can't go in the water, because Big needs to go fishing in there. AHAHAHA~

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Originally Posted by combofriend

Maybe they didn't have time to program swimming physics and underwater graphical effects.

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that ^


Anything to do with money and that's most likely your answer.
:| :nod:

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Not all the Water is instant Death, just the water thats very deep in Oceans and that. There are plenty of pools and what not in other levels you can go into and not die instantly.

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And don't forget that the Knuckles and Rouge levels in SA2 have some significant underwater portions. (most extreme for Aquatic Mine obviously)

Funny thing in SA1 is that you can actually drown at one spot in the Egg Carrier Chao garden if you stand there long enough. ;)

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To be honest I have not had a problem with most of the 3D Sonic Games. I find them just as enjoyable as the 2D ones. Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2, Sonic Heroes, Sonic Unleashed, Sonic Colors are all good Sonic Games.

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I need to try Heroes again, but I don't really care for Unleashed (werehog levels would be OK if not for the odd camera angles at times and the day levels are not what I want from a 3D sonic game... probably won't like colors for the same reason -my brother was even more frustrated as he's got an obsession of 100% levels and the requirment of super-combo timing in unleashed's day levels makes that a PITA)

OTOH I actually liked Shadow the Hedgehog, not SA2 quality for sure, but better than Heroes in many areas IMO... voice acting still gets annoying at times but only a fraction of what Heroes does and they even brought back tag-along 2nd player mode a la Sonic 2/3 and Sonic Adventure (tag-along tails) with various cooperative characters throughout the game. (plus 4 player multiplayer) Only played the GC version, Xbox is supposed to be reasonably OK too iirc, but PS2 is crap and super buggy from what I understand.

I didn't mind the 3rdPS mechanic either, it's no MDK2 as far as platforming 3rdPS goes, but the feel is the closest to Sonic Adventure 2 of any post SA2 3D sonic game AFIK. (I was thinking it was worse than that, but playing it again recently reminded me that it's pretty decent... if you liked SA2, Shadow will probably at least seem decent -more so if you like 3rdPS stuff)

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Originally Posted by Elusive

Alternatively, we could GO BACK TO THE GOOD OLD DAYS and deal with underwater player-vision cameras, jumping to catch air bubbles in 3D space (remember, depth perception in 3D is tricky, it's why jumping puzzles and crate-stacking puzzles in FPS' are an abomination), and finding a way of hiding the fact you're basically in an underwater box whilst making it interesting and fun to play. Sonic 2's Metropolis Zone is incredibly complex, but I doubt you need a map to get to the end. Even with those bloody punching-crab things, or exploding pointy starfish.

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They did do that though, and quite extensively too with Knuckles' Aquatic Mine stage in SA2 and pulled it off quite well. (it's annoyingly difficult for a few tings when you have to use bubbles/come up for air, but the Air Necklace addresses that ;))

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Need a boss fight arena? You're on a platform surrounded by water. The challenge is to attack the boss without falling in, because water=danger! Need a way of showing off your graphics engine and getting the game off to a running start? Level 1 is a beach level, and we all know how to do the beach level - it's a Sonic game.

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Actually, for some of those you can skim/bounce on the water. (that's the case for the Chaos 4 battle in SA2 -the water almost acts like jello)

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Comedy option: you can't go in the water, because Big needs to go fishing in there. AHAHAHA~

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Hmm, can't Sonic (or other characters) survive in most/all of the common locations where Big fishes? (since none of those are bottomless pits)
Of course Sonic still can't swim and thus can only jump out or run out of breath. ;)

More importantly, why did Sega make 2D Sonic vulnerable to water? 2D Mario can hold his breath forever; chasing after bubbles is fucking annoying. :?

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Originally Posted by roundwars

More importantly, why did Sega make 2D Sonic vulnerable to water? 2D Mario can hold his breath forever; chasing after bubbles is fucking annoying. :?

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Sega was being realistic, theyd didn't want kids to think they can be like Mario and live under water.
Nintendo came to their senses in SM64 with the air meter.
Given SM64 was at least 2 years before Sonic Adventure, there's no excuse for SEGA to through away Sonic's ability to survive in water all together.

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Originally Posted by Elusive

Short answer:
Gameplay reasons.

Long answer: because it creates a definable boundary within the level; 'don't go here, go on the sandy bit of beach where it's safer. Oh look, there's a bit over there that looks like you can run through it, let's go run through it', etc. without resorting to invisible walls. Stay off the water, it's bad for you. Good player, have a 1-up.

Alternatively, we could GO BACK TO THE GOOD OLD DAYS and deal with underwater player-vision cameras, jumping to catch air bubbles in 3D space (remember, depth perception in 3D is tricky, it's why jumping puzzles and crate-stacking puzzles in FPS' are an abomination), and finding a way of hiding the fact you're basically in an underwater box whilst making it interesting and fun to play. Sonic 2's Metropolis Zone is incredibly complex, but I doubt you need a map to get to the end. Even with those bloody punching-crab things, or exploding pointy starfish.

Need a boss fight arena? You're on a platform surrounded by water. The challenge is to attack the boss without falling in, because water=danger! Need a way of showing off your graphics engine and getting the game off to a running start? Level 1 is a beach level, and we all know how to do the beach level - it's a Sonic game.

And and, outside of gameplay it's a character flaw. Tails engages mouth before brain, Knuckles fights first & asks questions later, Sonic can't swim. Mary-Sue characters that are literally perfect individuals aren't any fun.


Comedy option: you can't go in the water, because Big needs to go fishing in there. AHAHAHA~

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I go along these lines. If you actually had to play a Sonic-style water level in 3d, you'd be complaining about it.

To rush to the defense of the 3D sonic games: it helps frame the level. Since this is a totally different play dynamic, not all of the old rules are going to carry over. Some of them would just be a real nightmare. It might also have been motivated by lazy programming. Most likely though, it's a very real combination of the two.

Now, that being said, I do not like the 3D sonics. I think very few of the old 2D Stalwart franchises made the leap into 3D very well. Off the top of my noggin, I can only think of three that IMO were good in 3D (that reaped the benefits of 3D, but still had the feel and vibe of the old 2D): Zelda, Metal Gear, and Metroid (Prime). Sonic, I think was perhaps one of the worst of them all. 3D Mario games don't feel a thing like Mario, but are still good games...Sonic on the other hand...no thanks.

(an aside) This is why I'm so excited about all the new games coming out in 2D, and ---very--- hopeful that this is a trend that continues. My idealistic hope is that eventually the market will balance and the 2D/3D balance will be not too far away from 50/50. That would be -perfect!- But who's to say whether or not that will happen. We'll see, I guess.

I really don't get how people can say all 3D Sonic games are bad.

I fail to see how any of this can be considered awful:







I think most people have experience with the bad ports of these games instead of the original versions that don't seem to have as many bugs and glitches that make the games feel broken.

And at least the 3D Sonic games still try new things and aren't generic bland rehashes of old ideas. I'd rather play a "bad" 3D Sonic game that tries new things, has it's own sense of character, and is original than a bland, generic, "good" 2D Sonic.