What are the real Neo Geo capabilities?

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Eh. Neo Geo's apparent power is exaggerated by massive ROM size. If Genesis had 500+ meg games, I don't think we'd be talking about Neo Geo being a powerhouse.

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I dont really know the technical side of things but i have both systems and the megadrive is no match for the neo geo by a long shot,the animation,colour,detail etc is incredible couldnt be done on megadrive hardware regardless of how big the cartridges are.

Look up last blade or samurai spirits zero,the later titles were really impressive.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

The Neo Geo hardware is fucking awesome, it doesn't have backgrounds, it's all sprites and it can move a bunch of them (96 per scanline, 384 total), not to mention they can be anywhere from 1x2 to 16x512 in size. The MD has an 20 per scanline and 80 total limit for comparison.

It can also "shrink" sprites, it doesn't scale them, but it's not a problem since it has such large sprites + lots of storage space. This also means there's no giant pixels.

It can access massive amounts of data, and I mean massive.

The resolution is the same as the MD.

It also has a whooping 4096 colors onscreen out of 65,536.

No other system of the 16bit generation comes close.

3D games are possible in the same way they are on the MD, but they should run faster since there's less conversions that need to be done, and the processor is faster as well.

Something like the on-rails stages of soulstar should also be possible, anything that doesn't require a rotating tilted surface. They'd also look a lot better.

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That fits my visual impression of the Neo Geo. It always looked like it was pushing a ton of sprites in games like Metal Slug, and it seemed to scale with ease. I don't think either advantage is a result of large data storage.

I wish Sega would've pushed the Saturn and the 4MB ram cart much further than they did. As good as the Neo was at 2D the Saturn was even better. I wish SNK would've ported games that had used the 4MB ram cart.

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Originally Posted by Da_Shocker

I wish Sega would've pushed the Saturn and the 4MB ram cart much further than they did. As good as the Neo was at 2D the Saturn was even better. I wish SNK would've ported games that had used the 4MB ram cart.

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The Saturn was an awesome 2d machine...

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Originally Posted by sketch

I disagree; the large cartridge storage (and hence extreme pricing at that time) is an inherent advantage to be sure. But the games on the Neo Geo look much better, have more detail, display more action, etc. It's not like the introduction of the Sega CD allowed the Genesis to match the Neo Geo.

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Yeah, that's because the Sega CD had a 1x disc drive and not enough RAM.

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I love the Genesis, and it's a better game machine overall than the Neo Geo (cost does factor into a consoles utility and enjoyment, and the library on the Genesis is so much deeper it's not even funny), but I don't think its graphic capabilities are anywhere near the Neo Geo.

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The Neo Geo does have a much better color palette, the CPU is a bit faster, and it's more flexible with video. But the main reason Neo Geo games look so much more advanced is ROM size (and the bandwidth to use it, as mentioned). That's also why those later Neo Geo games look so much better than the early ones.

Genesis would never match Neo Geo, but if you were limited to 32 megabits for Neo Geo games, the difference wouldn't be so vast.

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Originally Posted by Murphy245

I mean starfox is a good game and graphically impressive but it doesnt really look that pleasing to the eye does it.

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Not to nitpick, but put things into perspective. 15 years ago Startfox/wing looked amazing on the snes. Its just a matter on what games age well. The Neo games, in my opinion age very well since its all traditional 2d graphics.. Starfox/wing was polygonbased, unless im confusing my terms, and has not aged well at all in comparision. But back at release, Wow, that game was amazing, i bought it instantly.

That being said, Neo is a niché machine and thats why you see limitations in game genres, the Megadrive/genesis isnt/wasnt and therefor has much more depth and variation. I have owned an AES since 2002 and i absolutely love 2d fighters. Snes, megadrive etc doesnt cut it for me for fighters after having tried SNK's machine. And btw, it does have a few platformers beside Blue's Journey. Magician Lord is one. And the few ive tried has been fun to play. Just keep in mind, the AES is a side product, of the MVS and was ment as a rental unit only. Regular customers were "crazy enough" to support it, so SNK brought it "home". So naturally, arcade games are what you get, with Samurai Spirits RPG being the only exception that springs to mind.

Im in the process of getting myself a consolized MVS, so i can get more games at affordable prices.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Yeah, that's because the Sega CD had a 1x disc drive and not enough RAM.



The Neo Geo does have a much better color palette, the CPU is a bit faster, and it's more flexible with video. But the main reason Neo Geo games look so much more advanced is ROM size (and the bandwidth to use it, as mentioned). That's also why those later Neo Geo games look so much better than the early ones.

Genesis would never match Neo Geo, but if you were limited to 32 megabits for Neo Geo games, the difference wouldn't be so vast.

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That last statement sort've overlooks the bandwidth problem. So if the Genesis had bigger cartridges and was modified to handle the higher bandwidth, then it would be almost as good as the Neo Geo? Why not add a faster processor, more RAM, etc.?
Bigger carts alone would not make Genesis games close graphically to Neo Geo games. You seem to ignore the Neo Geo's superior color palette and sprite handling capabilities.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

The Neo Geo hardware is fucking awesome, it doesn't have backgrounds, it's all sprites and it can move a bunch of them (96 per scanline, 384 total), not to mention they can be anywhere from 1x2 to 16x512 in size. The MD has an 20 per scanline and 80 total limit for comparison.

It can also "shrink" sprites, it doesn't scale them, but it's not a problem since it has such large sprites + lots of storage space. This also means there's no giant pixels.

It can access massive amounts of data, and I mean massive.

The resolution is the same as the MD.

It also has a whooping 4096 colors onscreen out of 65,536.

No other system of the 16bit generation comes close.

3D games are possible in the same way they are on the MD, but they should run faster since there's less conversions that need to be done, and the processor is faster as well.

Something like the on-rails stages of soulstar should also be possible, anything that doesn't require a rotating tilted surface. They'd also look a lot better.

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The resolution never changes on the NG, just the clipping options. It's a 6.0mhz pixel dot clock (for the arcade system, not sure if they changed it for the home version, since it effects the refresh rate slightly). Genesis low res is 5.37mz and high is 6.7mhz, so it's right in the middle.

Concerning Samurai Shodown RPG, remember that it was a Neo Geo CD exclusive. Not available on AES or MVS. I find the Neo Geo CD was much closer to a "home console" than the AES ever was (the distinction being the Neo CD was far cheaper). Therefore, I feel SSRPG doesn't meet the criteria of this thread "Neo Geo arcade's true capabilities".

Still, no matter how bland and restricted the genre variety is on the NEO-GEO, it's still a great console. Among the fighters, shmups, run 'n guns, racing and various niche games (puzzle, bomberman etc), I find the NEO-GEO had reasonably decent variety.

Off the top of my head, here would be my grab bag mix:

Metal Slug 2 (with CPU overclock)
Samurai Shodown II
Garou: Mark of the Wolves
Sonic Wings 3
Neo Drift Out
Puzzle Bobble 1 or 2

How ironic, all that could fit in a 6-slot MVS board. :)

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Originally Posted by Guntz

I find the NEO-GEO had reasonably decent variety.

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I would have to agree, considering arcade games are pretty restricted to begin with, in my limited experience. neo geo had all types.

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Originally Posted by grimm

Not to nitpick, but put things into perspective. 15 years ago Startfox/wing looked amazing on the snes. Its just a matter on what games age well. The Neo games, in my opinion age very well since its all traditional 2d graphics.. Starfox/wing was polygonbased, unless im confusing my terms, and has not aged well at all in comparision. But back at release, Wow, that game was amazing, i bought instantly.

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Yeah im not bashing starfox,i know that at the time it looked amazing i was only playing it the other day and i love the game but it just doesnt look that pretty as a game.

Like virtua fighter 1 for example technically impressive game at the time but looked like shit compared to other 2d fighters.

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Originally Posted by sketch

That last statement sort've overlooks the bandwidth problem. So if the Genesis had bigger cartridges and was modified to handle the higher bandwidth, then it would be almost as good as the Neo Geo?

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Sure.

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Why not add a faster processor, more RAM, etc.? Bigger carts alone would not make Genesis games close graphically to Neo Geo games. You seem to ignore the Neo Geo's superior color palette and sprite handling capabilities.

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I ignored something I mentioned in the post you quoted?

Apparently you and I have differing opinions on what constitutes a "powerhouse [with] incredible 2D prowess". I don't think more colors and more sprites cuts it.

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Originally Posted by j_factor

Sure.



I ignored something I mentioned in the post you quoted?

Apparently you and I have differing opinions on what constitutes a "powerhouse [with] incredible 2D prowess". I don't think more colors and more sprites cuts it.

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To each his own. The Neo Geo and Genesis are not close in 2D graphical prowess IMHO. I'm not alone in this thread, although I seem to be the only one you're debating.

My main thrust is that there is more than one simple factor that keeps the Genesis and Neo Geo apart in terms of graphical prowess, and to me, that difference is significant. You seem to be making excuses for the Genesis as to why it can't match up to the Neo Geo, but the fact is, it doesn't. None of the graphical capabilities (cart size, sprite handling, color palette, band width) is going to change, and all these things add up to a significant difference in 2d graphical power. Again, just my opinion.

Maybe you look at the Master System and Genesis and think there's not much difference there either. They are both 2d, sprite based machines. We all have our own way of looking at things.

At any rate, if anyone else has an opinion, please share. I'm not one to spend time arguing on boards. My opinion is pretty clear.

I fully agree with Sketch. The NEO-GEO is in a league of it's own as far as 16-bit machines go.

All I know they managed to make Garou Mark of the Wolves on hardware from 1990, that's incredible.