and won EG's game of the year (I remember quite fondly), why didn't Sega do a neigh instant sequel instead of outsourcing it Europe. What was the reasoning behind that 'genius' move?
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and won EG's game of the year (I remember quite fondly), why didn't Sega do a neigh instant sequel instead of outsourcing it Europe. What was the reasoning behind that 'genius' move?
Strider was a Capcom license, Sega did not have anything to do with the decision on a sequel. All Sega did was a straight port from the Capcom-arcade-game because Capcom did not develop for Genesis at the time.
Strider II was the work of US Gold. Apparently they had licensed Strider and got a good contract allowing them to do a sequel without Capcom's involvement. So they just went ahead and did it for all systems popular in Europe at the time. The Sega-ports were actually the last ones to be released, years after the original versions of Strider II came out for C64, Amiga, Atari ST, CPC and Speccy.
It's probably really the result of how the games industry worked in the 80ies. Capcom was no giant and it was a standard procedure to sell the license to do ports to all systems to other publishers. They were not so strict about the intellectual property back then, and it was better to sell a license to US Gold than to have them just clone the game under a different name and Capcom getting nothing for it at all.
Strider II is not considered canon today though.
I have absolutely no idea, but Journey from Darkness: Strider Returns is complete garbage and sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiejame911
Sorry, I meant to say Capcom lol. I figured that Sega would have coaxed Capcom into directly making a sequel since that had to be the hottest new property atm. I am just surprised that Capcom had "better things to do" instead of working on a second installment for what could have been the beginning of a pristine franchise that was without a doubt the "hottest 8 mega game ever"... at least up unto that point in history. To put this game into the hands of a company that's claim to fame is ports and overall weak sports games just boggles my mind. Capcom should have been smarter.
They seriously dropped the ball, but if the contract was that good... then I can't blame them in hindsight. Actually... I do blame them. Money isn't everything and and little foresight would have went along way. We could have easily seen a Strider 2 during the SNES launch and then a part 3 in 94.
Sadly the real Strider 2 that was released in the arcades and on the PlayStation 1 remained largely unnoticed. It was a really good game though, mixing sprites with nice 3D backgrounds for the time. :)
But by 1999 Strider had already been mostly forgotten.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4228/strideri.jpg
They sorta did. The director and I think other Capcom employees made it for Mitchell under the name Cannon Dancer/ Osman. I seem to recall them being angry at Capcom.
Cool, never knew this game. The disadvantage of living in an arcadeless country.^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Lizard
This does indeed look very much like Strider. Of course 1996 wouldd have been too late for a Genesis port, but still... awesome stuff!
Yeah I love it. One of the main reasons to have Mame imho.
Yeah I just read the Osman stuff on the web. There has to be some hidden story here. The director seems to have been really pissed to go out of his way to make an arcade clone with a different company. If the director still had that much love for the game years later, imagine what could have been done if he and Capcom were getting along earlier in the relationship. I'm sure some of it stems from the outsourcing of Strider II to US West. These things lead me to believe that the demand for such a game existed, but the need wasn't filled.
Along with Osman, that Strider 2 does look nice ill have to try that some day.
Capcom licensed the original Strider to Sega because Nintendo's licensing agreement wouldn't let it release the game itself. The same thing happened with Ghouls 'n Ghosts, Forgotten Worlds, MERCS, Final Fight CD, and Chiki Chiki Boys.
Found this interview (http://www.lscmainframe.net/features/kyotsui.html)
and it has some interesting points:
-He doesn't think Strider had anything really innovative as it borrowed from a lot of current games and the Cold War theme of the 80's.
-He says all Strider material is Capcom's due to it being a morality issue (he didn't sign a non-disclosure agreement back then).
-He didn't play any of the Striders after the first arcade version.
-He jumped around and didn't say whether or not Osman is actually 'unofficially' Strider 2.
-Strider for the arcade wasn't really financially successful. He didn't mention the Sega port, but with his general attitude I don't think he ever cared to know and maybe never played it. I think we can assume the port was obviously super successful.
-Was never asked to continue on the Strider franchise at any point.
I don't get why Capcom didn't want him to be director for a sequel for the Genny, after it won GOTY for EGM, or even sooner when the sales numbers started growing.
Because these aren't American companies. These are Japanese companies with division across the world. The parent company, where all the decisions are made, is located in Japan and relative to Japan's society (relative to business).Quote:
I don't get why Capcom didn't want him to be director for a sequel for the Genny, after it won GOTY for EGM, or even sooner when the sales numbers started growing.
There are a number of factors you need to consider:
- Capcom and Sega were both direct competitors in the arcade business
- Japanese game companies had arrogant and ignorant perceptions of what the markets were outside their region.
- GOTY != million dollar seller. One magazine's award doesn't meant crap, really. And this magazine is not even in their own country of Japan.
- Capcom only licensed the game to Sega. Sega programmed the whole game. This means there's no relationship between the Megadrive, Sega, and Capcom outside a simple license deal.
- The Megadrive was seen as a poor performer in Japan at the time. Hardly expecting Capcom to invest into such a console. Even the PC-Engine, being much popular and even knocking the Famicom down from #1, did nothing to pursway Capcom to develop for that console as well.
- Japanese companies and business ethics were based around pride and loyalty. Consumers were much the same way. Capcom wasn't about to 'disrespect' it's primary money making partner - Nintendo.
- Strider was in development for both the Famicom and arcade at the same time. While the arcade director might not have been involved in the Famicom port, Capcom as a company was. So this was a joint Famicom and arcade designed game.
- Just because Sega was able to get a license to 'port' the arcade, doesn't mean they were automatically going to be given a license to create a non-existing sequel. It's about creative control, after all. Sega didn't have the type of relationship and power that Nintendo of Japan had.
The problem is, is that you're looking at all of this from a N/A or EU perspective, when the most influencing factors are actually Japanese based.
At the risk of being branded as a heretic, I agree with TheFinalHighlander regarding Strider Returns: Journey From Darkness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcddHfc5NXI
As long as I play the game on the "classic" sword setting ("Sweep" is so broken), I have a good time with it. It feels like more of a hack of the first game rather than a sequel, but seeing as how itfixedimproved much of the slowdown that plagued the original and gave experienced players a few new challenges, I enjoy it at the end of the day.
I am no history expert on these matters (as many of you are), but I see these flaws in your argumentQuote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
-I don't think the NES-Capcom "partnership" and neither the arcade competitors angle has really any bearing on whether or not they would have had Sega work on a new game from an existing license for them on the Genesis. Capcom got them to port Strider and Ghouls and Ghosts (both of whom became MEGA popular on the system), so I see nothing in the way of getting them to use the same programming team to make a new version for the Genesis (the groundwork was laid). Money is money and they obviously were not solely working with Nintendo in the home market and not at odds with working with Sega in allowing them to use Capcom arcade licenses for home games. Where does 'disrespect' end and savvy business sense begin? You are making me think Capcom was thinking: "You can port our games to the Genesis, but you can't make original games from our licenses cause that would upset Nintendo too much? You can make both Sega and Capcom money by porting our arcade games to the Genesis, but if they do well we don't want you to work on a sequel, cause again Nintendo would be even more mad than they are with us for allowing you to go this far? Not only that, but you did a fine job of bringing these games to the US market, but we want US Gold (a non-factor in the 16 bit market) make the next version of Strider". Many things are not adding up...
-Saying Capcom didn't know the sales numbers of the US versions of Ghouls and Ghosts and Strider and how those markets were good for the company as a whole, sounds a bit off... and yes EGM was THE US gaming mag besides Gamepro during that time so yes their awards meant ALOT of exposure and more than likely sales. I would go to the bookstore in 1990 and read through both of those mags to see what was the most talked about games and I usually bought them especially if they were as highly rated as the Capcom Genesis games were (both of which I got as they were released). Kids across America thought as I did and Sega made money.
-I can see how the original director might not be able to work with Sega to do a sequel due to his being a Capcom employee.
In the end,
I feel you on the creative control tip, but they let US Gold create the game for the MD, who had basically no successful history in creating ANYTHING action/adventure related and didn't have a MD game made yet. WHY would you let this contract go to them instead of having Sega do a sequel (Sega already laid the programming groundwork and had a verified success). I can only surmise that it had nothing to really do with politics or creative control or even the Sega/Nintendo thing. Obviously Capcom had no direct interest in making a Genesis game for Sega at this point. I really think Sega dropped the ball and didn't show interest in making the game and like it was said earlier; US Gold offered Capcom a deal to good to pass up. If Capcom had looked past the here and now they would have seen that US Gold had NO business making this game and the license would have been better suited to Sega or something else down the line. I hope the short term was worth it.
Pulled from Wiki: Ken Horowitz of Sega-16.com compared Strider Returns to "seeing a loved one revived as a mindless zombie"
Strider was cool back in the day, especially in arcades, but now I really can't stand to play it.
Sure it does. It just may not be direct or openly apparent, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have influence (large or small, it's still accumulative). Japanese business relationships have a lot of different factors that part of the overall decision making. You don't think, that with Capcom's extremely close relationship with Nintendo of Japan, that they didn't think about that first before giving Sega its permission to license the game? More likely than not, Capcom probably talked with Nintendo first as to be sure there no conflicts involved. Loyalty and respect were deeply rooted into Japanese society and directly extended to business relationships. You really need to read up on some history/documentary of Japanese business politics (specifically from that era too), if you don't understand the point I'm making and how factors in.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamiejame911
Just look at the interview with the arcade designer of Strider. He was no longer employed by Capcom nor did he have any legal ties preventing him from giving the interview, yet you wouldn't do it until he got Capcom (ex?)presidents blessing/consent. Look at interviews with US developers and such. They don't give a damn about their past employer of 20 years ago.
No. Capcom didn't "get them" to do anything. Sega purchased a license to do a port on their system and did the port themselves. Simple as that.Quote:
Capcom got them to port Strider and Ghouls and Ghosts (both of whom became MEGA popular on the system),
It wouldn't be the Genesis. It would have been the Japanse Megadrive. A Jananese company developing a game strictly and only for the US was almost considered laughable at the time. So you need to put in the context of the Japanese Megadrive and the Japanese gaming market/atmosphere.Quote:
so I see nothing in the way of getting them to use the same programming team to make a new version for the Genesis (the groundwork was laid).
All the Japanese games you played, where only localized after being developed for and on the Japanese parent system and its target market. Like I already stated, Japan had a completely missunderstand and rather arrogant snub-noise view of the US. Have you ever read interviews were Japanese companies though US kids were too stupid to play and enjoy Japanese RPGs? That's precisely the attitude they had. It wasn't until Sonic 2 that a Japanese and US developer worked closely together to design a major title and not just the US part only taking care of the localization. And it took the popularity of Sonic 1 to do it (though SMB2US would probably also be a good example). Hell, it wouldn't be until later than a Japanese company actually made a game JUST for the US (Snatcher on SegaCD, Lords of Thunder on SegaCD) and *NOT* the Japanase parent console at all.
1990. The Megadrive was still lagging behind in 3rd place in Japan (the Master System already considered a failure. Sega's home console's track market wasn't good). The Genesis hadn't completely overtaken Nintendo's 8bit NES yet in the US. The future "SNES" was expected/projected to destroy the Genesis when it came out. And given all the factors I just listed above, why would Capcom waste their own investment making a Strider sequel in Japan. The sales numbers had to have been much worse than the Famicom sales numbers (of the same port). Even the interview itself stated the game wasn't considered a success in Japan arcades.
It's completely unlikely a Japanese developer would make a US only game. It's almost just as unlikely they would have invested in the Megadrive to make the sequel themselves. And given the relationship with Nintendo, the future SFC on the near horizon, if they had plans to make a sequel - it would have been on one of the Nintendo consoles. Not the Megadrive (and localized to the Genesis). The only way I could see it ever appearing on the Genesis/Megadrive (as a proper sequel, not that craptastic game that pretends to be otherwise), was if they game had seen a sequel in the arcade.
You're argument could have easily chosen Ghouls and Ghost (Forgotten worlds would be less so, since it didn't receive any awards or fame compared to those two). And look what happened with that. SFC got the sequel; Megadrive didn't. And the Megadrive was gaining popularity by then too (Sonic was a boost for the system even Japan).
No, it's not as simple as 'money is money' relative to a single released soft. It's 'money is money' relative to all future business relationship ventures between two companies and its bread and butter (Nintendo would be the butter for Capcom's bread). You really don't understand business mentality or relationships and relative to the Japanese culture. You have an ignorant view of what 'money' is and how business works.Quote:
Money is money and they obviously were not solely working with Nintendo in the home market and not at odds with working with Sega in allowing them to use Capcom arcade licenses for home games.
Well, then you simply don't understand. I can't really say more without just repeating myself.Quote:
Where does 'disrespect' end and savvy business sense begin? You are making me think Capcom was thinking: "You can port our games to the Genesis, but you can't make original games from our licenses cause that would upset Nintendo too much? You can make both Sega and Capcom money by porting our arcade games to the Genesis, but if they do well we don't want you to work on a sequel, cause again Nintendo would be even more mad than they are with us for allowing you to go this far? Not only that, but you did a fine job of bringing these games to the US market, but we want US West (a non-factor in the 16 bit market) make the next version of Strider". Many things are not adding up...
I didn't say they didn't know the sales numbers. Whether they did or didn't, is not completely relative to my point. What you're referring would have been Sega's side, not Capcom... to ask permission to make a sequel or to enter into negotiations for Capcom to develop a sequel on their system (which is already completely unlikely since Capcom did nothing on the Megadrive themselves). I was saying that irregardless of it getting GOTY, doesn't directly mean it was the best selling game at the time *or* that the game sold enough to get the attention of Capcom (that was need to make this sequel). EGM might have been big to YOU, it was just another gaming magazine in that era (Gamepro, VG&CE). And it was just an American magazine at that. This wasn't the primary market Capcom home console division looking at. This wasn't some popular and important Japanese game magazine.Quote:
-Saying Capcom didn't know the sales numbers of the US versions of Ghouls and Ghosts and Strider and how those markets were good for the company as a whole, sounds a bit off...
Your experiences don't have any direct correlation with Capcom's perspectives relative to business decisions. Besides, I read the exact same magazines as you and so did all my friends. I loved Strider from the arcades and had fun with the home port. But I don't remember having a single discussion like this, with my friends on the subject of a Strider sequel. Matter of fact, we thought the TG16 was pretty damn popular too (since all of us had played one or owned one). That's like 10 friends at least. In no way did that actually reflect the gamers across the US (only found that out later on). A lot of gamers didn't know of the TG16 or remember it. And just put Strider in the context of real hit games, like SMB games. I'm willing to bet the sales and media coverage of Strider paled in comparison to those, even if it was bad ass and got GOTY. You're making it out to be a bigger deal that what it was.
There was a Strider manga released in Japan. I'd always wondered how much the Strider world had been developed and used beyond the games?..
It would be cool to see a translation and compilation of all the story and character development between all of the games and other material.
Was there ever a Strider OVA?
Despite receiving GOTY honors and being showered in praise by EGM, I honestly doubt that Ghouls and Strider made any dent on the sales charts, or were spoken of in the same breath as games such as Super Mario Bros. 3 (which surely outsold both games just in 1990 alone). Sega and the Genesis were still low-key during the pre-Sonic years, remember that. Ghouls and Strider may have sold better than most other Genesis games but given that the Genesis hadn't even sold a million units until sometime in 1991 I doubt that they sold much. Just adding to what's been said so far.
"Strider" was a fleeting experience in and of itself. It was destined to be a one-off game. After the success of "Final Fight" and later "Street Fighter II", Capcom's focus was on fighting games and to a lesser extent beat-em-ups.
Video game magazines weren't read much by regular people and the non-hardcore who did were more interested in cheat codes. Especially so early on in the lifespans of both the Genesis and console mags. Legendary Axe also got GOTY, but I doubt it impacted its sales much, no matter how much NEC waved it around. If you asked Genesis owners what EGM, GamePro or VG&CE were, most of them wouldn't know what you were talking about.
There weren't even that many Genesis consoles sold back then, which likely factored into why games were brought out so slowly in the early days.
Even if Sega of Japan had attempted to make an original Strider game, that doesn't mean that it would've been guaranteed to be good. Especially if it was rushed to cash-in on a hit game.
I don't buy all of this "Nintendo didn't want them to be involved with Sega" stuff. I think Sega just wasn't big enough in the home market yet (MD was around for little more than a year), and they were direct competitors in the arcades at that time. That however didn't stop Sega to go and buy a good number of Capcom games for their console though. And Ghouls 'n Ghosts surely sold a lot of Mega Drives in 1989.
Aside from the Genesis not being a huge seller yet ,another problem Strider had was its $70 price tag. There were many other good games around that were cheaper.
Whether games like Strider had a huge impact on sales can be argued, but the fact that Third parties had to work exclusively for Nintendo can not. It's a well known fact, being stated since the NES was still on the market. Look at David Sheff's very positive Nintendo-book "Game Over" from the early 90ies. Hell, Nintendo was even brought to court for this business practice. That's the only reason it ceased and we were able to see companies like Konami and Capcom release theei games from 1992/1993 on.
On topic:
Here's another Strideresque game I found.
This time on SNES.
I remember that game. Kind of fun but there's not much to it, it's like an easy-mode Strider.
Damn, I had Run Saber in my hands a few weeks ago and passed. It was only $5 too. :(
I'll have to grab it when I go back to the retro store.