Game Sack

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gamer101

Get the VT-25 series. 16 ms of lag, amazing picture. Done deal. Combine that with outboard processing and ever better lag times and picture can be achieved.

---

I know you've been banned, but 16 ms of lag is horrible. My 52" Samsung LCD has 3 ms of lag and I never really noticed any lag on my HD CRT. Still, old gaming consoles look better on SDTV.

Keep in mind that specs given from manufacturers, especially lag and contrast, are usually (if not always) embellished. The ms rating could be feeding a 1080p signal to a 1080p display with all modes of processing turned off, not trying to interpret a 240p signal and scaling it up to 1080p which will undoubtedly take longer as most TVs will wait for both fields to fill a frame (falsely interlacing the 240p signal) and then re-deinterlace it and then scale. Unless the HDTV scales by the field, you have at least 1/60th of a second delay before scaling even begins. The manufacturer will only give you best-case scenarios.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

You got two options: Buying an RGB to Y'PbPr component transcoder or buying an RGB to HDMI converter.

The component transcoder doesn't work with all HDTVs, but you could also use it with any decent CRT that takes component video. The later is definitely the most jawusum solution and gets CE's seal of approval™.

The other option is the HDMI converter: This is rather bullet proof as it works on all HDTVs with HDMI port - but there are a lot of shitty HDMI converters out there, so finding a good one can be a bit tricky. (I'd try this one first, and then, if the picture appears to be oversaturated or stretched, this one).

Hooking up ANY analog devices to an HDTV will introduce lag. Using these will help with picture quality mostly but also might reduce lag as would be introduced using composite or S-Video connections as the TV applies the most video post processing filters (which are the reason for most of the lag) to these channels.

You will also need an RGB-SCART cable for your Mega Drive.

Good thing is that you can hook up just about ANY machine using these adapters (aside of NES, TG-16 and N64 for which no RGB cables are available).

---

Shit, thanks a lot man! I will definitely look into these. I like this solution, because it doesn't require me to rape my console.
Also, I think somebody (it could've been you) posted a link to a website that reviewed and compared these devices. I can't seem to find it. Any idea?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olls

Is there anyone here that uses S-video or composite on an HDTV and can elaborate a little more on this?

---

http://i1092.photobucket.com/albums/.../LG_Plasma.jpg

Model 1 HDG Non-TMSS Genesis via Composite. The HDTV is a 60 Inch 1080p Plasma. I haven't noticed any lag on it really. The picture on my set looks a bit better than in that pic since I went back and properly calibrated it. :)

Waah, that looks better than I thought it would, especially on a big screen like that. At least, judging from the picture and the distance it was taken from.
I think I'll go for composite. I have the same genesis model and a somewhat smaller plasma screen, so it should be good. Thanks!

Did you keep the sides grey on purpose or never bothered to change?
I had to change mine in the option settings to black, looks much better when watching 4x3 video.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olls

Waah, that looks better than I thought it would, especially on a big screen like that. At least, judging from the picture and the distance it was taken from.
I think I'll go for composite. I have the same genesis model and a somewhat smaller plasma screen, so it should be good. Thanks!

---

It was taken from about 6 feet away. I'll take another pic with the TV properly calibrated and the lights out. Maybe a little closer. That way you can get a better idea of what it looks like. If you want me to though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeoVamp

Did you keep the sides grey on purpose or never bothered to change?
I had to change mine in the option settings to black, looks much better when watching 4x3 video.

---

When I took those pics I was still calibrating the TV. Since then I changed the borders to Black. I too find it better when watching 4:3 media.

Hmm, it's alright. I've done some research and figured out that with RGB the image looks more crisp, whereas with composite it is more blurry. However, with composite dithering doesn't really show, whereas with RGB it looks real ugly.
What are the benefits of S-Video?
Now I'm really confused.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

Gamer101, I honestly don't think you are capable of perceiving the tongue-in-cheek aspect of the show. No Polaroid HDTVs were actually used. We think it is ridiculous that Polaroid even makes TVs. Only high-end Sony HDTVs (LCD and CRT) were used in the making of this video and a SD Sony and Toshiba CRT. We clearly said that not all HDTVs are created equal and that some HDTVs have more lag than others. There was no bias. Please stop watching our videos, they are not for you. Thanks.

---

Yeah, but high-end doesn't mean shit much of the time.

Many cheap TVs can beat the crap out of high-end sets as far as SD content is concerned, some cheap TVs suck too, and some high-end sets are great, there's basically no correlation.

Sony TVs are hit and miss, some are total shit for SD content, others are OK, Samsung tends to be more consistently good but still falls short at times, and Phillips seems to be among the best. (my only experience is the nice Phillips LCD SDTV, but I've seen good comments about Phillips HD sets in general)
I think Sanyo sets (which tend to be in the cheap range price wise) might be among the better cases too. (interestingly, TVs with s-video input seem to be somewhat more consistent with good SD support, and those with no S-video more spotty -but that's not a reliable gauge either)

The best examples of digital TVs with SDTV content (be it composite, S-video, or component/RGB) tend to be very close to good SD CRTs in quality, and much better than poorer CRTs. (a shame that it's so hard to find good TVs . . . but if you don't feel too awkward, you could always bring in some old consoles to test with a TV before buying ;))


It's not just an issue with deinterlacing, scaling, or lag either, but some HD sets have truly horrible composite video decoding (color bleed, dot crawl, really nasty) and that can exacerbate other issues like forced deinterlacing.
Crap RF support can also be an issue.

HD CRTs don't seem to be particularly good at anything, before I learned much about them, I assumed they were like good VGA monitors, but in reality, they're more like higher resolution incarnations of SD CRTs without any native SD resolution support. At best, you might find one that can sync to 480p/720p/1080i, but you definitely won't find anything as flexible as VGA monitor resolution capabilities, or VGA quality beam precision. (high persistent phosphor also means more motion blur, that phosphor as well as relatively wide beam pitch is used for 1080i support -I don't think any 720p specific sets changed that either, and I don't think 1080p CRTs were common in general)
It's really sad as good CRTs could STILL be the peak in video quality with high-end LED dynamic lit LCD sets just barely close to catching up. (they'd be bulkier or at least heavier -for projection sets, but lighter and much less power hungry than plasmas -about the same as LCDs, probably more than LED lit ones- and still better image quality on top of that . . . and TRUE multi-sync capabilities for variable resolutions with zero scaling -albeit interlaced stuff would tend to flicker rather badly on good low-persistence phosphors, unless perhaps a special double trace mechanism was used to scan out each field twice to avoid flicker, yet avoid delay/overhead or artifacts of deinterlacing ;))

Let alone issues with edge enhancement or other filters. ;)

I'm not sure on how consistent this is, but Plasma sets also seem to be more often worse than LCDs for SD content. (image quality/contrast is better, but that has nothing to do with SD resolutions . . . that 6 year old Phillips LCD obviously isn't as good as a CRT in contrast/viewing angle quality, but the actual video support for SD resolutions -which is ALL it does, composite and s-vidoe decoding as well as component, all look great, RF is OK too -only Sega consoles give me trouble, but they all have composite anyway, Atari stuff looks fine; component looks great too, as does the 16:9 mode, lag isn't noticeable)
A damn shame that sort of support isn't the base standard for all DTVs. (better supporting HD sets are that good though, and newer ones will have much better contrast/color quality)



So HDTVs can be great for retro gaming, but you have to find the right one for the job. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olls

Hmm, it's alright. I've done some research and figured out that with RGB the image looks more crisp, whereas with composite it is more blurry. However, with composite dithering doesn't really show, whereas with RGB it looks real ugly.
What are the benefits of S-Video?
Now I'm really confused.

---

Composite also tends to have horrible rainbow moire artifacts on fine dithering or fine detail on non-dithered stuff. (like the buildings in Vapor Trail among other things)

S-Video greatly reduces that and RGB avoids it.

S-Video has little advantage over RGB other than being cheaper/easier to mod than buying a component transcoder and more compatible with some older TVs. (it also uses the same color/contrast as composite, while RGB has different color balance, saturation and contrast levels, and you'd need to switch the TV to different settings to correct that -and then switch back for other composite/s-video based consoles . . . )

RGB also tends to have vertical line interference issues (slight shade differences in columns) while s-video can also have that, it can also be less nocticeable. (it varies a lot by console and TV, sometimes RGB is better)



If you want a really blurry system with no rainbow artifacts, you'll want a Samsung KA2195D encoder, the worst one if you want clean video or S-video support (no luminance line), but it's great if you want fully blended dithering and no color artifacts. (on better TVs, the dot crawl artifacts are no worse than Sony encoders, so that's a non-issue too)

If you want sharp video or s-video, the Samsung chip is the worst of the bunch for sure. (though RGB is always an option)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

You got two options: Buying an RGB to Y'PbPr component transcoder or buying an RGB to HDMI converter.

The component transcoder doesn't work with all HDTVs, but you could also use it with any decent CRT that takes component video. The later is definitely the most jawusum solution and gets CE's seal of approval™.

The other option is the HDMI converter: This is rather bullet proof as it works on all HDTVs with HDMI port - but there are a lot of shitty HDMI converters out there, so finding a good one can be a bit tricky. (I'd try this one first, and then, if the picture appears to be oversaturated or stretched, this one).

Hooking up ANY analog devices to an HDTV will introduce lag. Using these will help with picture quality mostly but also might reduce lag as would be introduced using composite or S-Video connections as the TV applies the most video post processing filters (which are the reason for most of the lag) to these channels.

You will also need an RGB-SCART cable for your Mega Drive.

Good thing is that you can hook up just about ANY machine using these adapters (aside of NES, TG-16 and N64 for which no RGB cables are available).

---

On the topic of these boxes: I've found this video that explains the difference.
It seems all the HDMI converter does is put a filter over the whole thing. It doesn't really look any better, and it makes the colours come out worse.
What does the RGB to Y'PbPr component transcoder do?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Composite also tends to have horrible rainbow moire artifacts on fine dithering or fine detail on non-dithered stuff. (like the buildings in Vapor Trail among other things)

S-Video greatly reduces that and RGB avoids it.

S-Video has little advantage over RGB other than being cheaper/easier to mod than buying a component transcoder and more compatible with some older TVs. (it also uses the same color/contrast as composite, while RGB has different color balance, saturation and contrast levels, and you'd need to switch the TV to different settings to correct that -and then switch back for other composite/s-video based consoles . . . )

RGB also tends to have vertical line interference issues (slight shade differences in columns) while s-video can also have that, it can also be less nocticeable. (it varies a lot by console and TV, sometimes RGB is better)



If you want a really blurry system with no rainbow artifacts, you'll want a Samsung KA2195D encoder, the worst one if you want clean video or S-video support (no luminance line), but it's great if you want fully blended dithering and no color artifacts. (on better TVs, the dot crawl artifacts are no worse than Sony encoders, so that's a non-issue too)

If you want sharp video or s-video, the Samsung chip is the worst of the bunch for sure. (though RGB is always an option)

---

Alright, that's pretty informative, thanks. But, do I really need the component transcoder or can I just run with an RGB scart cable such as this one?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olls

On the topic of these boxes: I've found this video that explains the difference.
It seems all the HDMI converter does is put a filter over the whole thing. It doesn't really look any better, and it makes the colours come out worse.
What does the RGB to Y'PbPr component transcoder do?

---

RGB to component is the same as RGB, but it works on NTSC TVs. If you use an HD set, an HDMI scaler migth be a better option. (unless you know the HDTV has good SDTV resolution support and can work with 240p in component)

If you don't want RGB quality video, that's not a good option though. (unless RGB with sharpness all the way down looks OK)

I personally take visible dithering over blur anyway and rarely have any filters on in emulators because of that. ;)
Dithering is super obvious much of the time in composite anyway (especially in low res games, and in high res there's often nasty artifacting too).

If you like RGB clarity, but want a "soft" look, then turning sharpness to zero might work well enough. (it depends heavily on the TV though)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

RGB to component is the same as RGB, but it works on NTSC TVs. If you use an HD set, an HDMI scaler migth be a better option. (unless you know the HDTV has good SDTV resolution support and can work with 240p in component)

If you don't want RGB quality video, that's not a good option though. (unless RGB with sharpness all the way down looks OK)

I personally take visible dithering over blur anyway and rarely have any filters on in emulators because of that. ;)
Dithering is super obvious much of the time in composite anyway (especially in low res games, and in high res there's often nasty artifacting too).

If you like RGB clarity, but want a "soft" look, then turning sharpness to zero might work well enough. (it depends heavily on the TV though)

---

Okay, that answered both of my questions. Thanks a lot. I'm in PAL territory, so I don't need the transcoder. I'll just grab one of those cables.
While we're on the topic of cables: do RCA cables allow me to output stereo sound from a model 1?
Also: would I still need a transcoder if I were to use a modded Mega Drive to play NTSC games in 60hz?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

Keep in mind that specs given from manufacturers, especially lag and contrast, are usually (if not always) embellished. The ms rating could be feeding a 1080p signal to a 1080p display with all modes of processing turned off, not trying to interpret a 240p signal and scaling it up to 1080p which will undoubtedly take longer as most TVs will wait for both fields to fill a frame (falsely interlacing the 240p signal) and then re-deinterlace it and then scale. Unless the HDTV scales by the field, you have at least 1/60th of a second delay before scaling even begins. The manufacturer will only give you best-case scenarios.

---

Yeah, I'm aware of processing a lower resolution signal adding to the lag. I've played PS2 Guitar Hero and PSOne Um Lammer Jammy using the display and didn't have any issues with lag. I'm pretty sure it added a MS or 2, but not enough to make a huge difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Sony TVs are hit and miss, some are total shit for SD content, others are OK, Samsung tends to be more consistently good but still falls short at times, and Phillips seems to be among the best. (my only experience is the nice Phillips LCD SDTV, but I've seen good comments about Phillips HD sets in general)
I think Sanyo sets (which tend to be in the cheap range price wise) might be among the better cases too. (interestingly, TVs with s-video input seem to be somewhat more consistent with good SD support, and those with no S-video more spotty -but that's not a reliable gauge either)

---

Sanyo and Phillips are crap. The colors are usually washed out, the black levels are horrible and the overall quality of the sets is bottom of the heap. Phillips used to be a solid name in the industry, but what you're seeing now is rebranded RCA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Olls

Okay, that answered both of my questions. Thanks a lot. I'm in PAL territory, so I don't need the transcoder. I'll just grab one of those cables.
While we're on the topic of cables: do RCA cables allow me to output stereo sound from a model 1?
Also: would I still need a transcoder if I were to use a modded Mega Drive to play NTSC games in 60hz?

---

You need to use a simple adapter for the headphone jack for stereo.