Well, TA has a rather serious mental condition, so he makes claims like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Well, TA has a rather serious mental condition, so he makes claims like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
It's such a shame that 2d games went out of style suddenly in around 1994 in the US when the PS and SS game out. Imagine what a 2D sonic game would have looked like on the Saturn! (think Astal-style graphics....)
With five scroll planes (or 3 scroll + 1 rotate, or 1 scroll + 2 rotate), lots of vram, transparencies between the planes and sprites, and a sprite generator strong enough to double as a 3D renderer, a 2D Sonic on the Saturn would have killed any 2D game ever made on any platform. Sega really missed it with that blown call. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by AlecRob
It probably would have sold fairly well, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly Willy
Yep! Most of us bought that abortion called Knuckles Chaotix, so a REAL Sonic game would have set records. ;) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by AlecRob
Honestly, even remaking some of the MD games with new, high detail Saturn graphics could have been really neat. Not the main course mind you, but still potentially big sellers. (I'm thinking Sonic 3 and Knuckles especially) More marketable than 3D Blast at least. (cool gimmick and I like it more than most, but there's no denying how much better games many of the other Sonics are)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly Willy
And, in general, doing 2D and semi-3D (some polygons, possibly limited 3D PoV) stuff probably would have fit Sonic's style much better for the hardware at the time. I mean, I could see a platformer growing out of something similar to Sonic R, but the hardware of the time really wasn't up to the way Sonic worked in 2D in terms of speed and size.
Pure 2D and mixed 2D with 3D BGs and limited 3D areas probably would have been the most impressive and most fun to play though. (and Sonic's Special Stages tended to aim at 3D-ish stuff anyway)
That said, Sonic X-Treme is still a really interesting approach to things, more so than 3D Blast for sure . . . not sure how well it would have gone over with the masses though. (BUG! is probably the closest thing to it that was actually released, and that's still only vaguely similar)
Honestly, I think this may be true. Sure, 3D was the "coming thing" in the mainstream at the time, but that doesn't mean that good, solid 2D (or mixed render style) games didn't have strong potential in the mainstream as well, let alone ones with a very strong established IP. (hell, look how popular Yoshi's Story was on the N64 . . . and that's not even a particularly good game in its own right)Quote:
Originally Posted by AlecRob
Making the argument for early (mainstream) 3D stuff is kind of like the multimedia revolution. It was obviously the right move to push multimedia into mainstream, and 3D too, but forcing that issue without tact and moderation made for a lot of waste too. (there's tons of games that benefited hugely from the move to 3D, or whole new genres/subgenres, and the same thing for multimedia . . . but there's a lot of other stuff that was rather forced and tack-on, or just went too far -like trying to transition games to full 3D gameplay and PoV or trying to push games totally into multimedia rather than in moderation . . . granted, the whole interactive movie thing very rarely managed to be good, albeit you could argue that the dynamic realtime rendering of cinematic style games in the current generation have finally managed the original goals that interactive movies strived for some 20+ years ago ;))
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
To be completely fair, I'm pretty sure I know what he means specifically:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
A flat textured rotating floor with vanishing point style perspective and no distortion in the texture . . . so somewhat approximating perspective correct texture rendering, though not technically the same thing.
Mode 7 (and MCD, and GBA, and Jaguar) don't do that in hardware either, they only do 2D rotation (and scaling), so that perspective effect it handled with software using raster effects. (setting scaling for each scanline) It's the same method that Doom uses to render the floors and ceilings . . . and basically the same as the walls too but rotated 90 degrees. (walls are constant Z texture mapped . . . floors/ceilings are constant Y, I guess, but the same principal -you'd get distortion in Doom textures if the camera was free moving, which you can see in some Doom engine mods that allow mouse look or a free-er camera -Sonic Robo Blast does that)
This should also be totally possible on the PSX, Saturn, and 3DO by rendering rotated "sprite" objects and scaling with perspective one raster line at a time. There'd have to be support for doing raster line interrupts in the GPU/blitter too though, and in the tool set (or documentation) as well. (so PSX might not have supported that at launch, maybe after expanded documentation was released, and 3DO would be totally dependent on the API feature set)
Whether or not games could support that feature, it's certainly true that some programmers at least chose not to. Hence why you have large flat surfaces in PS1 games with normal affine mapped polygons and very obvious texture warping rather than using raster tricks. (it will take a performance hit doing that, of course, and it wouldn't really make sense to do outside of very specific cases -like totally open areas with completely flat ground and/or ceiling, or fighting games with a flat plane for the ring)
Independence Day comes to mind here: Saturn uses VDP2 with a rotated, perspective warped plane for the mother ship and the PSX version uses polygons with typical affine mapping artifacts.
Those trade-off and tricks disappeared entirely with the N64 onward, since you had real perspective correct texture rendering already.
It not my Claim . But it comes from programmer of Another World on the 3DO. But I guess you know better than him and you've worked on 3D0 gamesQuote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Sonic would have had to be 3D imo. SEGA really should have made a killer 2D Streets Of Rage IV thoughQuote:
With five scroll planes (or 3 scroll + 1 rotate, or 1 scroll + 2 rotate), lots of vram, transparencies between the planes and sprites, and a sprite generator strong enough to double as a 3D renderer, a 2D Sonic on the Saturn would have killed any 2D game ever made on any platform. Sega really missed it with that blown call
Well my claims come from Jesus, therefore they're better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Seriously TA, not only "someone said it" is the worst justification for anything, I've seen such ridiculous claims by programmers in magazine interviews that every time you say that I just chuckle a little.
If he meant a flat floor with perspective correction he should have said that. Mode 7 is what it is, and it is fairly limited compared to any other kind of scaling floors, though very good at textured detail and speed and better than line scrolling at simulating 3D fields.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
I need to pick up Independence Day and try it on my flight sticks some time. I was really disappointed with the game's simplicity back in the day but then all games became too simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
Why are we talking about this again? "Mode 7" would be entirely too rudimentary for a 5th gen effect, it was good for fooling around in 1991-2 and that's about it. If Sega and Core hadn't been such technology whores they would have just made B.C. Racers to demolish the effect, but instead they had to press the Graphics CoProcessor to the limit while sacrificing framerate.
There is no doubt in my mind that the 3DO could have handled better than Samurai Shodown or Super Street Fighter II X managed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
I wouldn't blow that too far out of proportion. Most of these are just kiddos who like to make fun of expensive electronics while they play games on their PS3. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
I was somewhat disappointed by Gex on 3DO, it has a very low framerate while scrolling. I would love to see some discussion as to why that is especially in comparison to Soccer Kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Exactly, Wing Commander on the Sega CD is competent at least but hardly as "Next Generation" as the 3DO games are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barone
Those aren't Mode 7 style floors and you can post a huge list of 3D PS games, the PS still had trouble handling the very basic Saturn Mode 7 style VDP II effects .Quote:
3DO isn't powerful enough to do "Mode 7" floors
People like Core, Travellers Tales, Zyrinx, Vivid Image Ect. Who all said trying to emu Saturn Mode 7 VDP II was a nightmare on the PS . And one only had to play the games to see that. Have a look and a good laugh at the PS trying to handle the VDP II floor effect on Thunder Force IV (factory level).Quote:
Neither of those systems would have any difficulty handling a simple warped/rotated texture mapped plan
Its not just someone . Loads of Corps said the 3DO didn't do the traditional 2D effects well compared to the Snes, Mega Drive and how the Jaguar the was much better machine for 2D.Quote:
Seriously TA, not only "someone said it" is the worst justification for anything,
To be honest . Batman Returns demolished Mode 7 on the Mega CD and Core totallyQuote:
If Sega and Core hadn't been such technology whores they would have just made B.C. Racers to demolish the effect, but instead they had to press the Graphics CoProcessor to the limit while sacrificing framerate.
What about Guardian War, John Madden, Fifa, Slam 'n Jam, Shockwave(s), Return Fire, etc? They do "Mode 7" type floors as good as or better than SNES can, all while also doing other things that the SNES could only dream of.
Adventures of Batman and Robin even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Then I guess that makes Squaresoft programming gods:Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Who cares about mode 7 floors in 5th gen games? They don't need them.
How does sprite scaling differ between the N64, SS, PS, 3DO, and other 5th gen consoles? are any of them better at it than others are?
It's all roughly similar in that they're rendered by blitter/GPU processors drawing to a framebuffer, and limited mainly by fillrate and texture-fetch bottlenecks. Scaling is generally faster than scaling+rotation since textels can be read in a linear manner (more efficient DRAM bandwidth), though performance will also be impacted by programming. (including support provided in the APIs/tools available -3DO and N64 would be more limited here than the others due to lack of good/any low-level documentation/tools for things not directly supported/optimized in the default APIs)Quote:
Originally Posted by AlecRob
Same thing for later consoles (Dreamcast onward), except most of those are so fast that 2D effects being bottlenecked by API restrictions usually isn't an issue.
Quite a few Saturn games made good use of it . . . and in that context (the Saturn vs PSX), there's obviously cases where the PSX GPU would be slower than VDP1+VDP2. Games heavily using VDP2 for anything (plain BG layers -possibly with alpha, scaling/rotation layers, etc) would eat up a ton of GPU bandwidth on the PSX. The PSX GPU is significantly faster than VDP1 (for texture mapping and sold/filled shading -and for alpha blending), but when VDP1 rendering isn't the bottleneck then the PSX will be at a disadvantage. (assuming the Saturn is programmed reasonably competently)Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Games don't always cater to the VDP1+VDP2 set-up, and some PS1 or PC optimized 2D games fall into this category especially, but for games that do work well with VDP1+VDP2, it makes a big difference.
That's not even comparable to SNES Mode 7 for the most part. The effects used are a totally different set . . . lot of 2D object scaling and texture mapped/linescroll effect for the road/terrain. It's way beyond what Mode 7 offers, but not out-doing Mode 7 at what it specifically does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
The MCD physically can't beat SNES Mode 7 at its own game. Full-screen 256 color (independent palette) scaling and rotation at 50/60 FPS, and with 3D "vanishing point" perspective with raster effects (sometimes 30 FPS in that case depending how it's coded).
Mode 7 is limited in what it can be used for, but it's very good at what it does.
Any MCD games using similar effects tend to fall noticeably short of comparable examples on the SNES. Sonic CD, BattleCorps, BC Racers, AH-3 Thunder Strike, RDF Global Conflict, F-1 Beyond The Limit, and even Soul Star have generally inferior ground plane effects than Mode 7 does (lower color and choppier -more so in some cases than others). Other effects in those games obviously go beyond what Mode 7 can do (Super FX scaling sprites over mode 7 might match it though ;) ).
Even the Jaguar would have problems matching SNES mode 7 performance in some situations. (rotated sprite rendering is one of the blitter's weak points and the same reason texture mapping bandwidth is low -peak of 2.4 Mpix/s . . . scaled sprites on the object processor are extremely fast though at 26.6 Mpix/s)
Yep they've a very good Team and were to do wonders on the Snes and PS . Doesn't change the fact that in almost every Saturn game that used the VDP II well, the PS port suffered even when the games were ported by top Teams like Treasure, Technosoft, GameArtsQuote:
Then I guess that makes Squaresoft programming gods
And lets see what some of the Teams had to say about the 3DO - Ones that made games for the system..
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8510/8...bf701407_c.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8506/8...520cd5f2_c.jpg
In saying that until the Pentium even the PC had a bit of a touch time handling 2D effects that the consoles could offer . I remember laughing at how bad Donald Duck scrolling on my mates 2 grand pc, compare to the super smooth scrolling on the Mega Drive
Adv Of Batman is a bit of a letdown really and is less impressive than Batman Returns or Cliffhanger , but then again John O Brien wasn't the main programmer to Adv of Batman on the Mega CD.Quote:
Adventures of Batman and Robin even more
Would care if you were a Saturn owner tbh and even in Skies of Arcadia on the DC there's mode 7 /VDP II flat sky effect used for the clouds (in game) . Games that used the Saturn Mode 7 style effects were the ones that helped make the Saturn singQuote:
Who cares about mode 7 floors in 5th gen games? They don't need them.
Yep nothing came close to the speed and smothness of F-Zero . Though to be fair Thunderhawk did tilt its Mode 7 style floors , which Core said Mode 7 couldn't really doQuote:
Any MCD games using similar effects tend to fall noticeably short of comparable examples on the SNES
So you're sustaining your shit about 3DO not being able to do some simple 2D graphical effects by using an interview from Argonaut, a company directly related to the Nintendo and the SNES at the time and whose single contribution to the 3DO's library is the "awesome" Creature Shock (released in 1996)??? An interview where, just by chance, they cite the SNES as superior for 2D games?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Awesome, TA. Thanks.
Well I've bet they've made more 3D0 games that you have, but its not just Argonaut . There were features back from the day from various multi platform developers who all said the machine lacked hardware support for some of the older effects that the MS and Snes could do in their sleep but we troublesome on the 3DO . People in the console industry listen to the likes of John Carmack I person that until the Jaguar never worked on console ports and to this day has only made 1 game for the 360 and PS3Quote:
So you're sustaining your shit about 3DO not being able to do some simple 2D graphical effects by using an interview from Argonaut, a company directed related to the Nintendo and the SNES at the time and whose single contribution to the 3DO's library is the "awesome" Creature Shock
Yes but then in a CVG interview Argonaut say the machine better at 3D games and it had a rather nice OS systemQuote:
An interview where, just by chance, they cite the SNES as superior for 2D games
Mind you is there any point . You still like to make that people hate the 3D0
Carmack has been invested in the Tech 5 engine for the entire generation, not to mention enhancing mobile phone games. How is that relevant to the technical fact that the 3DO can handle this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGlbOR5viC8
and this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xoy1De28xrY
The API was better at 3D games and video streaming than 2D games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
TA doesn't understand first order logic.
That is, he can cannot comprehend that if you make a statement like:
"The 3DO can't do smooth parallax scrolling", all it takes is a single counter example.
Same for all that sound discussion in the 4th gen thread and everything else he ever discusses.
Yeah, not bad for a console disabled for 2D and which can't run smooth anything with parallax...Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Also, it bugs me that the SNES versions of those games look clearly inferior, despite the SNES being an uncontested 2D powerhouse which puts the 3DO to shame easily, given the Argounauts' Mr. Nobody programmer testimonial.
ahahaha, this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Carmack has made one game for this generation of consoles . The same number of games that Argonaut made for the 3DO yet people still use what he has to say and that the 360 is better than the PS3Quote:
Carmack has been invested in the Tech 5 engine for the entire generation
Also Argonaut did itself develop some of its own Tech like its B Render system and also handle CGI in various games and even TV shows , they was more to the corp than Nintendo .
Quote:
not to mention enhancing mobile phone games
Mobile phones Eh ? The last 10 years have seen a big push to them having Hardware to aid the developer hasn't it . I'm sure that's why people Carmack have got on the mobile phone game .
3DO was a awesome console , but 2D wasn't it's main strength . Soccer Kid is shocking what 1 layer scrolling , Gex scrolling is something that wouldn't trouble the MD let alone the Snes and where something like Wonderdog beats into a cocked hat. Seeing a then state of the Art $700 console just about handle a port of Samurai Showdown a bit of a let down , more so when one looked at some of the SNK PC-Eng CD Rom fighters.Quote:
The API was better at 3D games and video streaming than 2D games
Now 3D games are where the system really showed it's hand the real power of the system
When he started developing the Tech 5 engine, Carmack was big time into the PS3. He even went as far as to say that the 360 couldn't handle Rage at all due to the DVD format, that it was impossible to break down into multiple disks without sacrificing the super textures and level design. So whatever people are gleening from Carmack today they are forgetting most of the last seven years. It helps that Carmack is obviously a genius though, so taking what he says as a multiplatform but PC centric developer at face value makes a lot more sense than taking the word of a console manufacturer's then second party.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Also, we both know that Edge loved to stir up trouble with platform loyalists while bashing the second and third tier manufacturers.
Well, this was years ago but his quote had something to do with hating Java based games and wanting to prove phones could do better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
To be fair, Samurai Shodown is the only other console version with the scaling intact from the NEO GEO original, and it probably wasn't exactly optimized. Gex is rather unfortunate though, it really shows off what the 3DO could do color wise while showing the API's limitations at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
The reason that the 3DO wasn't pushed further than it was for 2D and 3D is that it wound up as a niche market where the main competition was other 3DO games. If they had continued to work on the Gex engine, it would have only been to potentially compete with Trevor Mcfur screen shots. There wasn't much of a first party publisher creating killer apps to get people to switch to 3DO. It was always a secondary console for people and developers were making games for the 3DO market, not as part of a console tech war. It would have had to capture a significant audience early on in order to build up towards the launch of the Saturn and PSX. What we got for it is great, but had it been a huge success while at the same time battling another comparable console, we would have seem much more amazing things from games on a technical and artistic level.
The first Samurai Shodown was also released for the Fm Towns PC, but the PS1 got the best home port outside of the Neogeo home cartridge, a single CD release which includes both SS1 and SS2, it was released only in Japan as "Samurai Spirits Shubinan Pack", it has shorter loading times and is regarded as the best "CD" port of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRBvfV0VPr8
That depends on the context . . . the API was probably more specifically optimized for those things, or maybe not for the video streaming (may just resort to software rendering entirely . . . you should still be able to render to a buffer in main RAM with the CPU and have that read out as one big texture; Cinepak decoding isn't that CPU intensive and you'd have nearly 100% of bus time in that situation -Doom almost certainly did software rendered too . . . for whatever reason at high detail too, rather than low detail on 32x/Jaguar at the expense of 1/2 the framerate)Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
It may not be that the API is that strictly limited to "non 2D" stuff, but that the 2D support there is doesn't cater to some common console/arcade style techniques. SFII does seem to handle linescroll OK, though it looks like it may be coarser than the console/arcade (and PC) counterparts. (not sure, but it might be larger rows than single pixel lines . . . each line may be drawn as a separate object and the API might be a bit bloated for handling that efficiently)
There is some real-world context to this too, in terms of the how and why for those examples relative to the bad cases. Ie, some cases very well may have taken an unreasonable amount of work to achieve. Hence the need for more detailed technical discussions on the issues to actually address them properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
This certainly may be the case with the 3DO too as far as pushing 2D. It really should be in the ballpark of the performance of the Saturn's VDP1 (with some advantages feature-wise -shading/lighting and alpha blending are better iirc), and should have been able to outstrip the PCE/MD/MCD/SNES in pretty much every respect. (albeit more in some areas than others)
But the programming environment for the platform could certainly be a huge mitigating factor in this case. Not necessarily preventing certain effects entirely, but potentially making them much less efficient to handle.
TA doesn't tend to make those sorts of arguments though . . . usually just black and white claims with vague reasoning. (on the technical issues, at least)
Honestly I'd call BS on that, assuming Carmack's statements were exactly that and not distorted paraphrasing.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
There's no reason that splitting a game into multiple DVDs should compromise things like that. OTOH, RAM space and HDD space could certainly be real limitations for that, and are the 2 main areas PC-specific games have consistently had a hard time with conversions to contemporary consoles since the mid/late 90s. (when PCs and consoles started blending more as contemporary platforms -similar problems were seen with certain home computer games prior to that, especially ST/Amiga stuff relying on Floppy capacity and RAM)
The 360 and PS3 have a lot of trade-offs (raw hardware and programming environment wise), but DVD vs BD in that context shouldn't be one of them.
There's the separate issue of very few 360 games even going beyond 2 discs (and a large number using only 1) . . . but then again, PCs have gone the same way oddly enough, with the sort of transition seen with floppy to CD and CD to DVD simply not manifesting for DVD to BD. (no masses of games with folders of CDs for a single game, unlike the numerous late-gen floppy games with bunches of disks to deal with -generally peaking at 12 HD floppies- and then the many 4-6 disc CD-ROM games seen up until DVD took over completely around 2004)
You really don't see BD PC games . . . and it's probably partially due to DLC and partially due to the shift away from streaming cinematics (multimedia rich games were the main reasons for 12 floppies or 6 CDs, and earlier full DVD sized games). But now, any enhanced textures, models, dialog, maps, etc can be applied via patchs, DLC expansions, or mods.
There's also the PS1 version but at the time, yes, the 3DO was the only option close to the arcade in terms of graphics.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
This is pretty much the line I'm defending since ever when people start bashing the 3DO and saying it was capable of nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
But people seem to have a lot of trouble to actually remember about anything or produce some reasonable comparisons...
The 3DO was released in the end of 1993 and by the beginning of 1995 the 3DO Company was already focusing on the M2 shit, so, let's say that the console had like just one single fucking year of fully focused support by its 1st party (I'm not talk only about game development bu also about the SDK and documentation provided to the other developers, to not talk about the marketing side of things).
If we take a look a few years back, we will find many Mega Drive games struggling to provide simultaneous 2 player mode (supposedly due to the VDP's flickering fest) during its first years, despite Altered Beast having 2 players on screen and an extra bg layer compared to the arcade version. Games like MERCS or Hellfire, which had the 2P mode removed... If the Mega Drive had gone unsupported by 1990, we could probably see a lot of people claiming that it wasn't a good machine for 2P games. But here we are praising the SOR games until this very day...
If we choose not-wisely the early PS1 fighting games, we can say, based only in those few games (like the tiny 3DO fighting library), that the system was utter crap for 2D; heck, just play some Double Dragon on the PS1 for disgusting purposes.
Well, even the ultra-super-mega-blast-awesome 2D powerhouse called Saturn, so loved around here, has a pretty lame and choppy early Garou Densetsu 3 rendition...
The FM Towns version requires VERY powerful CPU to run OK and the game itself seems to be lacking a lot of details of the original one.Quote:
Originally Posted by chinitosoccer
The PS1 version is superior to the 3DO version, yes, and very close to the arcade one (better sfx quality and much higher framerate when compared to the 3DO's with worse loading times). But it is a full 3 years later release.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
I lost the earlier statements somehow, but these were all at whatever convention id frenquents and were all promotional statements for the Tech 5 engine and Rage in general obviously. The only remnant of that line of thought I can find is this:Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
http://www.joystiq.com/2011/09/25/ra...ps3-tolerance/
You have once again clearly missed the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
It should be noted that Chrono Trigger was released in 1999 (JP), so documentation, tools, and programming experience for the PSX had improved a good bit from the early years.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Even so, for such cases with not very resource-intensive games in general, doing plain polygons for flat textured surfaces (and not a raster effect) should have been perfectly fine, and actually far more useful in general. Sacrificing some raw polygon throughput in favor of perspective correction via subdivision (greatly reducing the distorted textures) should have been totally acceptable.
Then again, there's a large number of relatively high-budget mid/late life PS1 games that didn't do perspective correction very well at all. (Mega Man Legends comes to mind) Honestly, the PSX's typical polygon throughput was high enough that subdivision could have been implemented and still been ahead (in poly count) than N64 games using the early API/RSP code. (maybe not Turbo 3D)
OK, that's more of a complaint about the convenience (and distribution costs) of multiple DVDs vs BD as well as the PS3's lowest common denominator HDD space being higher than the 360s at that point. (thus being more risky to require a large chunk of HDD for permanent install and potentially alienate some 360 owners . . . granted, 20 GB PS3 owners wouldn't be THAT much better off)Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
I haven't . I said the PS had a hard time handling the Saturn version of Mode 7 like effects and it did . Every Saturn game then used the VDP II in a meaningful way suffered when being ported to the PS; Go and play both version of Street Racer, Thunder Force IV to find it out , especially the Factory level in Thunder Force IV when the PS doesn't even try to emulate the VDP II floor effectQuote:
You have once again clearly missed the point.
I wouldn't say too much but in other threads you're so quick to highlight things the PS can't do, to that of the Saturn.
Moved to:
7th Generation Thread
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNL07BtCWUwQuote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
And this is what a developer had said about that:
Published on Jul 10, 2007
Quick play of 1st Mission from Mass Destruction for Sega Saturn.
Mission-based overhead 3D shooting game.
UPDATE :
got contacted by one of the game's former developers, correcting my initial 30 fps statement and providing me with some interesting informations:
"Hi, someone sent me a link to this, and I just thought I'd point out your comment about the game running at a solid 30 fps is slightly off. I wrote the Saturn version, and it ran at a constant 60 fps. The PSX version could only manage 30 fps though.
The Saturn version got the extra performance from having some custom hardware that really helped that particular game. The terrain was displayed much like Mode7 on the SNES, ie a scroll screen that could have a perspective transformation to display it at the correct viewpoint to match the polygonal display drawn over it. It wasn't tiled by the hardware though, I used the bitmap mode, and dumped the tile data in 2 strips, to update the horizontal and vertical edges. Since the scroll screen wrapped round in both directions, it gave a seamless scrolling landscape.
The PSX had to draw the terrain as a grid of polygons, and so was forced to run at 30 fps due to the limited rendering power of that console generation. Without the scroll screen hardware, the Saturn version would also have been stuck at that frame rate.
The game was written almost completely in C, with a few SH2 assembler functions to handle the update of the scroll screen data in the vertical blank. This was the first game I'd written in C at that point, everything prior I'd done in assembler. I used the SGL libraries, as these were far more capable than the SBL libs that were initially available.
The Saturn hardware also allowed me to have parts of the scene reflected in the water, by drawing the reflected geometry inverted and using various priority/blending settings in VDP2 to combine the frame buffer and scroll screens.
As for programming the Saturn now, I'm sure you'd find the stuff available on the web will cover any of it admirably.
This was my only Saturn game, after that I moved on to various crappy projects on the PSX, and then PC."
What we were debating though was whether or not the PS1 can do the effect, which it can. The difference to my knowledge though is that you don't get the performance boost doing it on the PS1 that you do on the Saturn since it doesn't save polygons or anything like that.
Thank youQuote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
Not has well, even though it's simple Mode 7 like effect but that's the difference Hardware support can do for a developerQuote:
What we were debating though was whether or not the PS1 can do the effect, which it can
Quit cutting off my posts and read the whole thing.
The PS1 can do the effect just as well as the Saturn. The key difference however is that it doesn't save polygons or help with rendering performance like it does on the Saturn.
MD says otherwise I mean developer said it's going in at 30 FPS due to that same limitation on the PSx.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
The limitation isn't in the Mode 7 effect itself. It's in the fact that doing such an effect on the PS1 doesn't save any polygons or help with rendering performance like it does on the Saturn.