I will never forget I ordered this game when I was 11 or 12 maybe younger, and they eff up my order and sent me the GENESIS version
This was pre ebay. I shoulda sent it back and got the Sega CD version, how is it?
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I will never forget I ordered this game when I was 11 or 12 maybe younger, and they eff up my order and sent me the GENESIS version
This was pre ebay. I shoulda sent it back and got the Sega CD version, how is it?
It was a nice effort for it's time considering that they could've just directly ported the cartridge version(NFL 94) with enhanced music and sound. The 3D graphics were a nice try, and the game play's slightly better than Sportstalk Football, or Sportstalk Football 93(better collision detection, easier passing system) but it suffers from terrible color, bad music and sound, as well as game play that is a little on the slow and choppy side.
Loving the dancing JCVD gif's btw. Cracks me up everytime.
Joe Montana NFL is really interesting, it's got some impressive use of the graphics/coprocessing hardware in the MCD (scaled sprites, warped textured "mode 7" style playfield/ground and warped texture mapped 3D-ish -possibly polygons, not sure- grandstands/stadium sides) and was done by Colckwork Tortoise (same people Sega commissioned to do Batman Returns CD, Batman and Robin on MD and CD, and I think one or 2 others).
However, I've seen a lot of complains on the gameplay end from sports games fans, I forget most of the specifics on those complains though (I think general complains about the controls, especially passing), but they tend to include much more positive comparisons of the Sega CD Madden games. (which are more bare bones adaptations of what the Genesis offered -sound is a bit better, but that's about it iirc)
Anyway, here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIO-sSpU1lQ
It's definitely cool looking if nothing else. ;)
reminds me of a 16 bit version of the first two NFL gameday games, before they went downhill
http://www.game-rave.com/psx/playsta..._gameday/1.jpg
http://www.game-rave.com/psx/playsta..._gameday/3.jpg
The game SUCKS. Period. But, it's not for lack of effort. I wrote a review of the game, I'll post a link when the site comes back up.
It tries to do too much for what limitations the hardware had. I don't think there's much fun to be had there.
It looks liek it has potential but look at Sega's Saturn Football game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln_FzHgsy_4
It doesn't try to push the hardware too much . . . the only trade-off there is with framerate issues, and that's not too bad at all for the effects being done. (it doesn't seem worse than F-1 Beyond the Limit, and that's quite playable . . . BC Racers is pretty choppy too for that matter, and Battlecorps at times -well choppy as in 12-15 FPS vs mostly 60 FPS stuff for conventional scrolling/sprite movement/line scroll effects, etc . . . not so choppy compared to things like Road Rash ;))Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sports Guy
The bigger issues seem to be messed up gameplay mechanics. (passing, running, oddly timed announcer commentary, etc)
The passing system is the big issue with the game (it's broken) the commentary is due to issues with the CD Rom and not enough memory/the Mega CD not being able to stream on the Fly quick enough to match the on screen action , so the Team had to load the data in ,after each play . It's a shame if they got the passing game right , this would have been brilliant. There's a lot of game in here and a lot of extra's and I do love the quite brutal sound effectsQuote:
The bigger issues seem to be messed up gameplay mechanics. (passing, running, oddly timed announcer commentary, etc
It really is trying to push the Hardware and it was in many ways ahead of its time. The 1st game to have a 3D-ish stadium in full view, Ball camera views ECT...Quote:
It doesn't try to push the hardware too much .
Whoever thought up that retarded passing meter deserved a smack in the face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
NFL 97 should have been nothing short of epic. Sega should have invested the same time and effort into NFL 97 that it did for the first party NFL games on the Genesis, maybe then the Saturn would have lived longer than 3 years. Instead they subbed developement out to Gametek, before abandoning the series altogether until the Dreamcast. What were they thinking?
Sega giving up on American Football games is a big contributor to the demise of the Saturn in the US. Sega of Japan seriously underestimated American's love of the sport.
SEGA always subbed out development of it's Sports games , and I really Joe sold the Mega Drive or the Mega CD to the world, That was more John Madden and Sonic.Quote:
Instead they subbed developement out to Gametek, before abandoning the series altogether until the Dreamcast. What were they thinking?
Sorry you can't blame SOJ for that one, That was all SEGA America making. SOJ need a good kicking for not seeing how much of a Big Deal Sonic was , but it was up to SEGA America to make sure it Had Sports games ready to go for the Saturn and 32X.Quote:
Sega of Japan seriously underestimated American's love of the sport
You also overplay the NFL fact, when Madden was a totally brilliant game on the Saturn (most prob why the Saturn game was canned) , the Saturn also had the best Baseball , Hockey games on any 32 bit system and a pretty good NBA , when compared the the N64 the Saturn was the better console for sports Yet NCL not having any sports games ready at launch, never held back the system same went for the NES and Snes and even the though the Turbo Duo had the 1st CD version of John Madden on CD, never really helped it in the USA
And please don't try and make out SONY's NFL game sold the PS to America , I don't the game ever topped the USA charts or ever meat the like of Wipeout, Destruction Derby console to games sales ratio
Not having Sonic was a bigger deal imo and a stupid mistake by both SEGA America and Japan
Well it didn't help Sega's case that they had Madden and Gameday on the same system. IMO I thought Sega's football games were much better than what EA was giving us. Basketball and Football have always been the biggest selling sports genre's in the US. I find it off that SoA was so shitty with sports games on the Saturn in comparison to the Genesis. Anyways back to the topic I wish SoA would've kept at this game as they eventually would've perfected it and could've made a even better game on the Saturn.
And Kool Kitty there was NEVER a Madden game for the SCD
The Mega Drive wasn't bursting with Sports titles on it's USA or Uk launch and it must have been far easier making a MD sports game to that of a 32Bit sports games when polygons and TV style presentation became more the norm and what people expected.Quote:
Basketball and Football have always been the biggest selling sports genre's in the US. I find it off that SoA was so shitty with sports games on the Saturn in comparison to the Genesis.
I really don't think Gameday played a major part in the PS beating the Saturn early on.
Really I played Joe 2 and II and the Mega Cd's version with a mate (only played the other in 1 player mode) and they just never compared to John on the MD, even Bill Walsh Mega CD port was far better to play than Joe onthe Mega CDQuote:
IMO I thought Sega's football games were much better than what EA was giving us
Sadly along with the Desert series Trilogy they were announced, but sadly canned.Quote:
And Kool Kitty there was NEVER a Madden game for the SCD
If EA did a port like they did for the Mega CD version of FIFA (where they really used some of the system features) , John Madden would have been very special on the Mega CD , was gutted it was canned
Madden just didnt do it for me compared to NFL 94. Look at those graphics and that speed plus the announcer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vkYPxWWvtg
True, they did sub them all out, but damn...Gametek? Seriously dude? :wtf:?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Montana alone did not sell the Genesis to America no, but the NFL/Montana games were very high tech, and unavailable on the SNES. That coupled with the higher quality ports of the Madden games over their SNES counterparts did sell the Genesis to America(along with Sonic of course). American gamers knew which console to go with if they wanted NFL football, and the Montana/NFL series played a huge part in that.
I'm not sure what the relationship was between SoA and SoJ, didn't most of the funds and decisionmakig come from SoJ? I remember reading about how the main man(I forget his name, Katz? or Kalinske?) at SoA begged and pleaded for funds(which he almost didn't get) to sign Joe Montana to an endorsement deal, he wasn't just free to make the decision on his own. Where was the big name endorsement for NFL 97? I don't really know who was responsible for neglecting the genre on the Saturn, but both of them would most likely still be involved in the console industry had they done things differently:rip:. NFL 97 doesn't even come close to Madden NFL 97, or NFL Gameday 97(or even 96 for that matter). Had Sega of Japan or America or whatever made sure that it's Saturn exclusive football game was of the best possible quality, and available at launch the Saturn would have done much better out of the gate.
You're underestimating the popularity of the NFL in America. NFL football is the most popular sport here by a wide, wide, wide margin. Baseball, Hockey, and Basketball don't even come close. Nintendo doesn't need sports games to sell it's consoles, they have Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Metroid to do that for them, also the Turbo Duo was dead in the water by the time Madden 93 was ported over(early 1993). For a console to compete against Nintendo, they need a few geat American football games, Sony and Microsoft obviously took note of that during the 16 bit console wars. They made damn sure they had high quality exclusive Football games available for the Playstation and Xbox at launch. I just wish Sega had done the same with NFL 97 for the Saturn.
No the Gameday series did not sell the Playstation to America, but Gameday 98 and 99 for sure outsold Wipeout and Destruction Derby in America. I wouldn't be surprised if those were among the highest selling games for the system here in the states, but I don't have any sources so I don't really know. I would go out on a limb and say that I'm pretty sure the Gameday series was a big part in gamers choosing the Playstation over the Saturn when it came time to buy a new gaming machine in 95/96/97.
NFL 94 would be better if it wasn't impossible to complete a pass or break a tackle. Seems like JMFCD improved upon that a bit(not much).Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
There's more to the game than GFX and when it came to gameplay I don't think it got any better than Madden 92 and 93 for NFL on 16 bit.Quote:
Madden just didnt do it for me compared to NFL 94. Look at those graphics and that speed plus the announcer.
Yes Madden and Sonic sold the Mega Drive , I do know and have made those points, but lets not overplay Joe. Joe didn't sell the Mega Drive or the Mega CD like Madden did for the Mega Drive, and of course inthe end Joe or Madden didn't stop the Snes selling nearly as well (if not better ) in the USA.Quote:
but the NFL/Montana games were very high tech, and unavailable on the SNES. That coupled with the higher quality ports of the Madden games over their SNES counterparts did sell the Genesis to America(along with Sonic of course). American gamers knew which console to go with if they wanted NFL football, and the Montana/NFL series played a huge part in that.
The Snes, N64 all sold like hotcakes in the USA, that's with out little effort on Nintendo part to produce In-House Sports software
Please can we stop making stuff up (begging for money, Is laughable with the money SEGA threw around with endorsements in the 16 but era) . Funds always come for the main HQ (that is true of any multi corp, SONY, MS, NCL ECT) but as for the lack of endorsement deal with SEGA, well that can be for a couple of reasons , the money that people were asking for such deals (hence we why we saw less and less endorsement deals across the board inthe 32 bit era) and the fact that Montana also took SEGA to Court.Quote:
I'm not sure what the relationship was between SoA and SoJ, didn't most of the funds and decisionmakig come from SoJ? I remember reading about how the main man(I forget his name, Katz? or Kalinske?) at SoA begged and pleaded for funds(which he almost didn't get) to sign Joe Montana to an endorsement deal, he wasn't just free to make the decision on his own. Where was the big name endorsement for NFL 97? I don't really know who was responsible for neglecting the genre on the Saturn, but
Please stop this Nintendo doesn't need sport games because it's getting just a bit rich. If you had Madden then you didn't need much else,and please don't give me lectures on Madden, because it's the same deal with FIFA and Pro Evo over here Europe (factors which really hurt the DC and Saturn)Quote:
You're underestimating the popularity of the NFL in America. NFL football is the most popular sport here by a wide, wide, wide margin. Baseball, Hockey, and Basketball don't even come close. Nintendo doesn't need sports games to sell it's consoles, they have Mario, Donkey Kong, Zelda, and Metroid to do that for them, also the Turbo Duo was dead in the water by the time Madden 93 was ported over(early 1993).
Don't make out that Gameday sold the PS in the USA , because it's sales to consoels ratio's don't bare that out, and from what I remember Tekken did better in the charts than Gameday
And look what happened, the X-Box, Cube, PS2 all sold much better and I still believe that Sonic Adv is the best selling DC title in America ?. I not over look the impact NFL 2k had, but it takes more than NFL games to sell your console and please you going to tell me MS X-Box NFL game was high quality? I think it was pretty adverage to say the leastQuote:
They made damn sure they had high quality exclusive Football games available for the Playstation and Xbox at launch
+1! Madden 92 FTW!Quote:
There's more to the game than GFX and when it came to gameplay I don't think it got any better than Madden 92 and 93 for NFL on 16 bit.
After playing Madden 92 for years, it was hard for me to get into NFL 94.
You can't really look at NFL 94 the same way you do the first four Madden games though. NFL 94 tries real hard to be a close simulation of the sport and does do a pretty good job of that. It's the type of game where you have to use actuall football strategy(controlling the clock, setting up the pass with the running game etc..), and actually put some thought into your play selection to be successfull. With Madden on the other hand you can just mash random buttons at the play selection screen and run from sideline to sideline breaking a thousand tackles on your way to a 63-21 victory in 5 minute quarters. If you play a 15 minute quarter game on NFL 94 your going to get a more realistic score like 35-24 but a 15 minute quarter game of Madden will have scores in the triple digits for sure. That was Sega's thing with the NFL games, and they were very ahead of thier time with things like the changing QB focus, gang tackling etc..
I actually read that in an interview with one of those guys here at Sega-16, SoJ was not willing to give the money up until the guy pretty much demanded it. He had to fight for the funds to endorse Montana. He also put the pressure on developers to finish the game in time for a holiday 1990 release. I may have a few facts mixed up, but I didn't just make that up, it's true. SoJ couldn't have cared less about an American Football game for the Gen, it was SoA that fought for it.Quote:
Please can we stop making stuff up (begging for money, Is laughable with the money SEGA threw around with endorsements in the 16 but era) .
All I was saying was where was that enthusiasm for the genre on the Saturn? NFL 97 was a shitty effort, and after it flopped Sega just gave up on the series. Why couldn't they give us a game like World Series Baseball II, I always wish they would've put the same amount of effort into an exclusive football game. I assume the popularity of Baseball in japan played a small role in the high quality Baseball titles that the Saturn got, but thats's just me speculating, don't take it too seriously.
NFL Fever 2002 was nothing special, but it wasn't all that bad either, it was for sure a better effort than NFL 97 was for it's time.Quote:
And look what happened, the X-Box, Cube, PS2 all sold much better and I still believe that Sonic Adv is the best selling DC title in America ?. I not over look the impact NFL 2k had, but it takes more than NFL games to sell your console and please you going to tell me MS X-Box NFL game was high quality? I think it was pretty adverage to say the least
I played a ton of Madden '92 and '93 with my football nut brother back in the day. I could beat him or the CPU easily by picking Hail Mary over and over the entire game, there was rarely anybody on the runner. I don't like football sims, or football in general, but that seems off to me. I'm going to have to pick up Joe Montana CD now just to see if I notice any problems with the gameplay.
Can we stop talking such utter rubbish ? Would you expect SEGA America to fund and developer a In-House Soccer game, a In-House Soccer Management game ? SEGA America had no interest in such matters , and no should it , That was up for SEGA Europe and SOJ to make where the sport in so much bigger, Same for the NFL (where the rest of the world cares little for the so called World Champion sport) it is for SEGA America to insure that it had a NFL game ready to goQuote:
SoJ couldn't have cared less about an American Football game for the Gen, it was SoA that fought for it.
Quote:
I actually read that in an interview with one of those guys here at Sega-16, SoJ was not willing to give the money up until the guy pretty much demanded it. He had to fight for the funds to endorse Montana
Well Sorry that don't match the facts, where even the 1st few Launch games for the Mega Drive USA/Europe had endorsements, the likes of Arnold Palmer Tournament (which had a nice name Change and endorsement for the West) . SEGA America/Europe had no trouble getting the likes of James buster Douglas, Evander Holyfield, David Robinson ECT names on their games, remind me again how much SEGA America/Europe spent sponsoring F1 and @ the time the number 1 team (one of the costly sports for product placement)
So cut me the Bull, SEGA West spent a fortune on sponsoring and getting celebrity endorsements , simple FACTS of the matter
At just look at what plays the best and John Madden 92/93 plays the best thanks to it's near perfect controls (no other NFL game came close) if for those reasons why I still think Sensible Soccer is still the best football game (when for many at the time it was the more fancy looking FIFA)Quote:
You can't really look at NFL 94 the same way you do the first four Madden games though
You're going to tell me that game sold the X-Box ? I really don't think it did at all, it was another game that had sod all to with sports or NFL.Quote:
NFL Fever 2002 was nothing special, but it wasn't all that bad either
And up to SoJ to OK all necessary funding/investment/etc (including in-house development, if that is the desired route) for said game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
That was especially important for anything that SoA did that went over budget (ie either digging into SoJ assets, or SoJ OK-ing additional loans from 3rd party investors).
SoA presumably had pretty flexible control over their normal budget, but extending that budget and making certain radical changes are another matter. And, obviously, SoJ (ie Nakayama) did OK much of the major requirements for SoA's success in the early/mid 90s . . . SoA would have had Joe Montana out months earlier too if they hadn't had the misfortune of selecting Mediagenic to develop it.
Not pushing in-house NFL games more on the 32x or Saturn early on (or Sega CD for that matter) was a problem, but it's not clear what was the limiting factor. (I haven't seen any actual interviews on the subject)
Sonic games and other franchises were obviously not SoJ's territory alone either . . . hell, the most popular Sonic title was developed in the US independently of SoJ (done by some former SoJ staff, granted, with collaboration with US staff -which also occurred to a degree in Sonic 3 and S&K) but definitely facilitated by STI in any case. (or the events that led to the formation of STI in general)
Not pushing late gen 32x/CD/Genesis games onto the Saturn may have been SoA related too, but that's unclear (and SoA obviously lacked the resources to convert the stuff themselves since there were no tools to develop for the Saturn until mid 1995 -unless SoA could push SoJ to release the in-house code being used for Saturn development or at least release comprehensive hardware level documentation sooner) . . . among other, more complex and important issues on the market in general -like mismanaging the Genesis in 1995 onward. (going way off topic now though, so I'll stop)
As I've said before, there's too little information on many of these things to really do more than speculate on exactly how it happened.
Yes, that was one of the smartest decisions Katz made. Heavy and tactful marketing was key to success . . . without that the MD most likely would have been another SMS in North America. ;) (hell, the SMS even had pretty well funded marketing campaigns from what I've read -especially early on where they were quoted to be spending considerably more than Nintendo on advertising, but the management doesn't seem to have been there prior to Katz)Quote:
So cut me the Bull, SEGA West spent a fortune on sponsoring and getting celebrity endorsements , simple FACTS of the matter
Well given that SOJ allowed SOA/SOE to spend a fortune on FMV games, SOA to set up and build it's 10 Million quid Multi Media Studio (only to get rid of a few years latter) and for both SOE/SOE to spend a fortune on sponsoring major sporting events along with a host of celebrity endorsed Mega Drive games. Then the simple facts show SEGA America had the money to spend. Lets also remember SOA had NFL, NBA, NHL,NBL games all in development and only NFL game was cancelled(most prob because it was poor)Quote:
And up to SoJ to OK all necessary funding/investment/etc (including in-house development, if that is the desired route) for said game.
That was especially important for anything that SoA did that went over budget (ie either digging into SoJ assets, or SoJ OK-ing additional loans from 3rd party investors)
So we need to drop that line, because the facts of the matter prove otherwise.
SOJ need a good kicking for the lack of Sonic ready to for the Saturn USA launch, but SOA are also to blame with Sonic X, where the team didn't know what machine they were making the game for, 1st it was the 32X, then the PC, the a dual PC and Saturn game and then just a Saturn game. A complete nightmare from start to finish.Quote:
Sonic games and other franchises were obviously not SoJ's territory alone either
With out the 32X and with the Saturn being the sole console SEGA to support . The SEGA Saturn would have Quarterback Attack , Fred Couple Golf, Fifa and I bet Sonic X would have been finished (if development was just on a single platform) ready to add to the Saturn launch list , or appear just a little latter. So yet again it comes back to the mistake of trying to support dual 32 bit machines, and SEGA America hopeless call of the 32X being the only Mass Market 32 bit machine in the West
Alright, I got it in and played a couple of 20 minute exhibition games. I'm not seeing what is wrong with this as a football title. It looks great, the plays work the way they do in other 16-bit football games, passing is intuitive and appropriately dangerous. My standby long pass from the Madden games can result in interceptions much more realistically, so I have to mix it up with running plays and short passes. Am I missing something?
-edit-
I just noticed that nobody reviewed this on gamefaqs, so I read the Sega-16 review (I've noticed a number of reviews shared between the two sites). All I can say is wow, I really cannot believe I read the whole review as it was obviously going to trash the game no matter what from the first line. There are no gameplay related comments that justify the 2/10 score or the frequent over use of the term "bad". Too many offensive plays, the reviewer wasn't very good at avoiding interceptions, or tackling the player who made the interception. I had a similar problem with passing to well covered receivers resulting in interceptions, but tackling in this game is quite easy and the AI usually does it for me. I'm still not sure why this game is so fun to pick on.
Yes the game the game is rather unfairly trashed, but the controls and passing system should have been a lot better and those let the game down badly, and the FMV Ask Joe sections really pointlessQuote:
Originally Posted by sheath
but there's a rather decent game here and I love the sound effects and little touches like the Ball and Helmet cam replays (I think a true 1st for a NFL game)
The only other complaint I've seen is the choppy framerate compared to conventional Genesis football games (and EA's College Fottball release on the CD), though it seems pretty decent for what's being done on-screen for the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Aside from a couple points, that review is unusually poor for Sega-16 . . . it's written OK, but the content is pretty piss-poor with lack of detail to really back up his arguments, especially for a 2 (with the actual tone and comments in the article, it sounds more like a 5, maybe 6). One of the worst arguments seems to be this bit:
Maybe it’s just me. I don’t know. I’m supposed to be good at these games, but not this one.
The complains about the graphics being stretched too thin for the MCD's capabilities, but (aside from mentioning the players have no numbers), there's absolutely nothing backing that up in his comments. (he could mention the choppy framerate or choppy animation at times -comparing it to EA/Sega football games on the Genesis or such, but he doesn't)
The controls and passing issues aren't mentioned at all either. (unless you count the floaty ball physics comment)
Though the issue with the commentary really is odd. There's no streaming audio in-game, so why leave the commentary only between plays? (even if it ended up slightly delayed in-game, it would have made more sense than not having it during a play at all)
Exactly, so there should have been a lot of potential for the money at that time . . . but it's inconsistent to be sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Management/marketing is obviously a big part of things and was the obvious problem in the SMS days in the US (they pushed a lot of money on ads, but poorly managed in general . . . and lacking in other management areas -pushing for western 3rd party support -especially before Nintendo got their mitts on them, and even a good chunk of US -and pretty much all EU- developers later on).
Spending a fortune and backing it up with good management/marketing is a huge part of what led the Genesis to success . . . and the PS1 and PS2 for that matter (except with even more money), and that's also what drove the Dreamcast in the US. What happened with the Saturn is a bit confusing . . . obviously 1995 was a total mess for the Saturn for multiple reasons, but why they (apparently) cut out the marketing budget in mid 1996 is particularly odd (like they were giving up early, and at the worst possible time -ie the real start of the 5th gen consoles going mainstream in North America).
That mess ended up ruining many of the promising investments SoA had made (including that multimedia studio -which could have paid off big time if efficiently utilized in the 5th gen).
There's some vague evidence, but nothing conclusive either way. The issue claimed is that SoJ changed their position substantially in the mid 90s (around the time of the Saturn's launch), so trends before that don't fully apply. (which vary too at different periods -SoA obviously had off management in the SMS days among other things) In particular, there's the claims that SoJ cracked down on the previous freedom of management the western branches had been afforded.Quote:
So we need to drop that line, because the facts of the matter prove otherwise.
Again, the whole thing merits more investigation (though some, on both sides of the argument, are already settled in their beliefs).
It's a shame that most/all Japanese personnel involved are uninterested in discussion, but there should at least be a good chunk to glean from the US (and perhaps EU) staff.
I'll again cite the recent work on uncovering Atari's history to demonstrate how far off established "facts" can be. (much of which was based on press releases, magazine editorials, and interviews from back then -things that omitted and distorted a huge amount of the story, some truths not coming to light until the last couple years even -after tireless work of historians, often with documentation that was never intended for public eyes and often meant to be destroyed -rescued from the trash and archived: things like internal correspondence of management, technical documents, financial reports, etc)
The 32x was a non-issue in the long run . . . and it's probably good they started on that rather than not starting at all (given Saturn development tools were not available in any sort until mid 1995 . . . and those that were available were largely faciliated by the 32x -whether SoA could have done something to kick SoJ for more documentation early on is unclear, SoJ obviously was working with in-house code well before any sort of workable development tools were released though).Quote:
SOJ need a good kicking for the lack of Sonic ready to for the Saturn USA launch, but SOA are also to blame with Sonic X, where the team didn't know what machine they were making the game for, 1st it was the 32X, then the PC, the a dual PC and Saturn game and then just a Saturn game. A complete nightmare from start to finish.
In any case, the 32x version appears to not have gone beyond the concept stage anyway, and the PC+Saturn version was the main course. It seems that the PC team made the best progress and the Saturn team was rather a mess that eventually got cut out entirely in favor of just the PC (and conversion to Saturn) team was left intact. (not sure if the PC version was canceled prior to the Saturn one, it seems to have gotten at least as far along as the actual Saturn game, and it would have made tons of sense to release both given the shaky position of the Saturn and boost in market PC would give -meshing with Sega's general PC support of the time)
It seems that they might have made fall/winter of 1996 too, in spite of the internal problems had it not been for some external hickups. One of the biggest would obviously be Nakayma's insistence at accelerating the project and offering the Nights engine for use . . . so they halted internal development of the current engines and started work on a Nights derived version, only to have that stripped away later on when the Nights engine was barred from use (wasting a couple months at least). Then there's the lead programmer driving himself to illness (life threatening at that) trying to make up for lost time and thus missing the Christmas schedule.
Had it not been for the Nights debacle, they probably could have had both the PC and Saturn versions ready by late 1996.
I doubt the 32x had much at all to do with that . . . plus, with proper planning and development tools, it should have been a non-issue to port over 32x games to Saturn (and not too tough to enhance them a fair bit too), though lack of tools was a huge issue for quite a long time with the Saturn. (first lack of anything usable at all until mid 1995, then lack of useful libraries until quite a bit later -C compilers for the SH2s should have been available early on, even for the 32x, but actual graphics APIs would be another story)Quote:
With out the 32X and with the Saturn being the sole console SEGA to support . The SEGA Saturn would have Quarterback Attack , Fred Couple Golf, Fifa and I bet Sonic X would have been finished (if development was just on a single platform) ready to add to the Saturn launch list , or appear just a little latter. So yet again it comes back to the mistake of trying to support dual 32 bit machines, and SEGA America hopeless call of the 32X being the only Mass Market 32 bit machine in the West
Why the 32x library didn't supplement the Saturn's lineup in 1995 is another mystery. (the 32x+Saturn conflict in general is another issue, but not pushing 32x games -not to mention certain late-gen MD and CD games- onto Saturn was particularly odd)
That was one of the issues pushing for the PC version . . . PC development allowed pure API level stuff and the Saturn conversions of that relied on the (rather problematic) libraries available in mid 1996.
Then again, assuming the programmers involved were relatively flexible (and capable with old-style low-level programming), a Saturn first Sonic Xtreme probably would have been more sensible (they could always do a PC port after the fact -especially as PCs could demand more resource and thus looser optimization than the Saturn . . . after all, there were plenty of after the fact Saturn ports to PC).
As long as they didn't opt to go with the existing Saturn team, but the PC one (but used for the Saturn foremost), things probably could have done quite well. (the existing Saturn-specific team was a mess it seems, and one of the biggest problems with development in general . . . if they'd ended up with only the member of that team, it probably would have been worse off than what they did -especially since Nakayma apparently ordered the use of the Nights engine after witnessing the poor progress of that team's efforts)
Where it was up to SOA/SOE how they spent the money, but have money and spend it they did.Quote:
Exactly, so there should have been a lot of potential for the money at that time . . . but it's inconsistent to be sure.
No SOA/SOE were spend a fortune in 1994/1995 , but that was on pushing the Mega Drive and 32X .Quote:
The issue claimed is that SoJ changed their position substantially in the mid 90s (around the time of the Saturn's launch), so trends before that don't fully apply.
Can we stop the lies ? ok . I'll look over how the likes of Bug ECT were all in development in 1994 and came out in Mid 1995 (amazing that give you make out there was no development kits) . But point you to the facts that in spring of 1994 80% complete development kits had shipped to 3rd parties in Europe Mike Brogan (Sega Europe product development ) also confirmed that he had over 50 Saturn development kits ready for 3rd parties , and if you didn't want to go with SEGA's tools you could also pick up Cross Products SNASM2 Complete Saturn development kit for just £3000 (on sale early 1995)Quote:
given Saturn development tools were not available in any sort until mid 1995
So , Lets stop the lies and the miss truths here right now.
They spent over a year making the 32X version, then worked on a PC version, then on a dual PC and Saturn versions (each with completely different GFX engines and gameplay) The project was a mess from start to finish. It should have only every been on development for one system to give the title it's best chance to make it out .Quote:
In any case, the 32x version appears to not have gone beyond the concept stage anyway
So lets cut the Bull. SEGA America unlike you've tried to make out had money to spend, SOA unlike you've tried to make out, knew full well about the Saturn (even were the 1st to show the system off) and the system 1994 lauch data, SOA unlike you've tried to make out, had Saturn development kits in 1994 and early 1995
Any more excuses or lies for Saturn ?
I finally decided to download the game to test it out in Fusion . . . and I got some answers on this, the main one being that the commentary is NOT CD-DA but 8-bit PCM . . . pretty clean, perhaps 22 kHz? The existing disc has about 36 minutes of CD-DA space available (assuming a 63 minute disc), so presumably they used a LOT more than that in 8-bit PCM (~22 kHz PCM at the normal 150 kB/s data rate could be 7x as much audio as CD-DA in the same space -well, technically 21.94 kHz in that case).Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
Though given the huge chunk of space (more than 1/2 the disc) left open, they probably maxed it out and went for the full 32 kHz 8-bit PCM.
Why they couldn't manage streaming PCM playback in-game, I'm not sure. Maybe they had problems getting that to work in conjunction with the SFX (and didn't want commentary to cut-out SFX) be it due to buffering space in wave RAM, or DMA bandwidth/timing issues for updating wave RAM.
Maybe that's something that could have been solved with more work . . . but that would have delayed the game's release. (too bad they didn't push out a more conventional MD-derived NFL game -with CD enhancements- with a polished version of Clockwork's game coming later on)
It's also far less optimized than some of clockwork's other games, which leads to the low color and low framerate compared to better alternatives. The main issue is that everything in-game seems to be rendered as a full-screen 16 color bitmap/framebuffer with ASIC/CPU rendered objects (no use of the 2nd layer or hardware sprites) . . . this is opposed to Batman Returns and Batman and Robin with extensive use of both BG layers and hardware sprites with pretty good color optimization overall. (at least doing the players and ball on hardware sprites should have helped a lot -dedicating 16 colors just to the BG and perhaps the 2nd BGjust for stat overlays) Clipping the screen a bit also should have facilitated a smoother framerate.
Core oddly did the same thing with battlecorps and BC Racers, leading to both poorer use of color and slower gameplay. (most/all 2D scaled objects could/should have been on hardware sprites -allowing per palette optimization and avoiding overwriting overhead for the ASIC- while the 2D BG could have been on the 2nd BG layer with other BG used solely for the ground . . . though technically you could do that on 1 layer too with no color penalties as long as you alligned to the 8x8 tilemap -have the upper part of the screen a plain scroll layer and the lower part the ASIC's framebuffer since you only deal with horizontal scrolling for the 2d BG)
Soulstar addressed that issue too, with good optimization of both BG layers and sprites.
Edit: it seems that Batman Returns also does most things on just 1 15 color layer . . . just the far BG is done by sprites and the 2nd BG layer, the action all takes place rendered onto a single BG plane. B&R does a lot more with sprites though.
The game was pushed back for months anyway , because of Joe going KC and then it was delayed for gaming reasons too.Quote:
Maybe that's something that could have been solved with more work . . . but that would have delayed the game's release. (too bad they didn't push out a more conventional MD-derived NFL game -with CD enhancements- with a polished version of Clockwork's game coming later on)
I'm sure it was Gamefan, but there was interview with the Team and they said it was not possible to stream in Audio fast enough and the Mega CD didn't have enough sound Ram to hold it all in memory , and so that's the reasons why they went the way they did .Quote:
Why they couldn't manage streaming PCM playback in-game, I'm not sure.
Not sure how much difference it really made, but John O'Brien wasn't the head coder or engine programmer on both Joe Montana CD or Adv of Batman & Robin (Mega CD) and likewise Mark Avory wasn't the programmer on Batllecorps (thought it was using the Thunder Hawk engine) or BC racers .Quote:
It's also far less optimized than some of clockwork's other games, which leads to the low color and low framerate compared to better alternatives. The main issue is that everything in-game seems to be rendered as a full-screen 16 color bitmap/framebuffer with ASIC/CPU rendered objects (no use of the 2nd layer or hardware sprites) . . . this is opposed to Batman Returns and Batman and Robin with extensive use of both BG layers and hardware sprites with pretty good color optimization overall. (at least doing the players and ball on hardware sprites should have helped a lot -dedicating 16 colors just to the BG and perhaps the 2nd BGjust for stat overlays) Clipping the screen a bit also should have facilitated a smoother framerate.
Core oddly did the same thing with battlecorps and BC Racers, leading to both poorer use of color and slower gameplay. (most/all 2D scaled objects could/should have been on hardware sprites -allowing per palette optimization and avoiding overwriting overhead for the ASIC- while the 2D BG could have been on the 2nd BG layer with other BG used solely for the ground . . . though technically you could do that on 1 layer too with no color penalties as long as you alligned to the 8x8 tilemap -have the upper part of the screen a plain scroll layer and the lower part the ASIC's framebuffer since you only deal with horizontal scrolling for the 2d BG)
Soulstar addressed that issue too, with good optimization of both BG layers and sprites.
I happen to think the Battlecorps engine is brilliant and really makes full use of the Mega Cd hardware , but less BC races was too slow , but I did like the Snes like effect, for the head light
Just 64K RAM for PCM samples was a BAD decision IMO. Mega CD was pricey, OK, but 128K or even 256k RAM for PCM would make it thaaaat more expensive?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
'Cause I think SoJ really dropped the ball here. Fighting games, like Samurai Shodown suffer from that lack of PCM samples (poor programing too, but there was really no enough space for good fighting games ports)...
Eternal Champions CFTDS is almost a quiet game too.
64K ram for samples on MCD is worse than the same 64k on SFC due to lack of compression. It should have been at least 128k to be consistent with the machine price and time of its release. But considering that it was a CD-based machine, 256K would be the right size for that.
It's funny to think that stock MD could handle all Samurai Shodown samples with a 32Mbit cartridge (considering the already downgraded content of the 24Mbit version) and the said much more powerful Mega CD couldn't (or would have to stop everything for 1-2 seconds to load the samples what breaks the gameplay IMO, MK CD anyone?)
Many possibilities on releasing sports games with good in game narration quality and great fighting games ports were lost.
I had a much more detailed review written up, and ready to submit before this review was published. I gave the game a higher score(5), and touched on some of the innovations. Football games are not given much of a chance around here, unless they are called Tecmo Super Bowl, or Mutant Football League. Guy's who don't really care for the sport/Genre of games should just leave the games alone as far as reviews go.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Burr usually does a good job with football, but I too felt like he was overly harsh with this review.
The first game I ever loaded up was playing as Kansas City. The first play of the game I broke a few tackles and ran a 30 yard first down with Marcus Allen, then on the next play, a Montana touchdown pass.
I ended up losing the game(10-7 vs Buffalo), but those are a few things I always had a hard time doing in Sportstalk Football, NFL Sportstalk 93, and to a lesser extent NFL 94.
The game is much more playable than any of those 3 in my opinion. 94 is sweet though.
Thank you. It has been a very long while since I played the game and it did not seem as bad as many people make it up to be. You convinced me to pick up another copy for myself. The good news about all this bad press it that it keeps the price down on the secondary market :)Quote:
Originally Posted by shinobimusashi
I just got in Madden for 3DO and finished my first game, Cowboys versus Buffalo Bills. Once I figured out what buttons did what I felt like I was playing Joe Montana CD with one exception, I couldn't get any blitzes to work and the opponent AI frequently failed to complete a pass even when I screwed up coverage. I got about the same amount of interceptions from long or short passing as I did in Joe Montana CD. I tried a wider variety of offensive plays in Madden, and managed to fake myself out more than once with a QB running play that I thought was a passing play. Aside from that I don't see much of a huge difference in the two game's gameplay.
The graphical style is very similar to Montana CD but Madden has more detailed 2D characters and more texture on the ground. I almost think the stands might look better in the Sega CD game though. As one of the major gripes against the graphics in Joe Montana CD was no numbers on the backs of players, it's worth noting that Madden only has numbers on the ground under the players if that player is selected and their backs are blank.
This will make a good comparison video sometime soon.
1994 is a given . . . 1995 is up to argument (the bigger issue there is the Saturn's release date and PR management, not plain ad spending), but 1996 was when the real spending for a massive marketing push was needed (1995 more just for software R&D for games to be released in 1996 if anything). 1996 was the real start fo the 5th generation mass market (namely the christmas season) in North America, so spending (and management) at that time was critical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
And aside from the 32x, there were numerous games on the Genesis and CD that lacked the marketing push needed for real success . . . I believe Melf specifically noted Comix zone and The Ooze in that regard in his STI article. (whether that was an issue with upper management, 32x spending, or Saturn spending is unclear)
Some games may have been in development prior to that but that either meant that they poured serious resources into building their own tools from scratch, or they had some additional documentation available direct from Sega of Japan that (for whatever reason) couldn't be incorporated into standard development tools. (things that obviously only dedicated 1st/2nd party developed would be dealing with)Quote:
Can we stop the lies ? ok . I'll look over how the likes of Bug ECT were all in development in 1994 and came out in Mid 1995 (amazing that give you make out there was no development kits) . But point you to the facts that in spring of 1994 80% complete development kits had shipped to 3rd parties in Europe Mike Brogan (Sega Europe product development ) also confirmed that he had over 50 Saturn development kits ready for 3rd parties , and if you didn't want to go with SEGA's tools you could also pick up Cross Products SNASM2 Complete Saturn development kit for just £3000 (on sale early 1995)
Either that, or the whole timeline for SDKs being released as Chilly Willy discussed a while back is wrong. (or there's yet to be discovered earlier dated SDKs than those that have been leaked)
Why would they have spent over a year on the 32x version when the 32x was basically dead in less than that time? Was there even any major development done on the 32x programming/software end, or mostly concept work?Quote:
They spent over a year making the 32X version, then worked on a PC version, then on a dual PC and Saturn versions (each with completely different GFX engines and gameplay) The project was a mess from start to finish. It should have only every been on development for one system to give the title it's best chance to make it out.
And given the article posted a while back, a large portion of the PC/Saturn development DID involve using the same engine (PC first and then ported to the Saturn -probably with a lot of follow-up work to boost performance on the Saturn end).
Making it Saturn first and PC second probably would have made the most sense for the time. (as was done with many other Saturn games)
Yet it's still pretty vague who was calling the shots on what issues and when and how much money was available (namely if/when/how SoJ started taking a bigger interest in SoA's actions as has been claimed -or if that's totally or partially false).Quote:
So lets cut the Bull. SEGA America unlike you've tried to make out had money to spend, SOA unlike you've tried to make out, knew full well about the Saturn (even were the 1st to show the system off) and the system 1994 lauch data, SOA unlike you've tried to make out, had Saturn development kits in 1994 and early 1995
If nothing else, the Saturn launch in the US would be extremely odd if totally orchestrated/managed by SoA alone. (and if so, is probably their biggest single mistake ever given how many other problems it caused and compounded)
What they did really makes no sense at all in that regard, more so than many other questionable instances.
Again, more research on the subject is definitely merited.
No, they was still plenty of SEGA press promotions and adverts in 1995 mainly for the 16 bit side of things .Quote:
1994 is a given . . . 1995 is up to argument
The Ooze was hardly mainstream . and there was plenty of STI games that didn't take off even in SEGA heyday. Lets all remember GreenDog.Quote:
I believe Melf specifically noted Comix zone and The Ooze in that regard in his STI article
So lets stop the lies about the Development Kits then . Bug came out in the Summer of 1995, so to make out SEGA America didn't have any Saturn development kits is wrong.Quote:
Some games may have been in development prior to that
It's incorrect . There was issues to getting enough development kits out (due to both 32X and Saturn sharing the same SH-2) and early developers said the early tools and kits would sometimes break or be full of Bugs .Quote:
Either that, or the whole timeline for SDKs being released as Chilly Willy discussed a while back is wrong.
You can say that about every Hardware launch around . You say SEGA should have been more like NCL and used the SGI chipset. Every N64 interview I have ever seem all the same thing they were working on SGI machines while waiting for NCL to give them actual development kits , before launch. PS2 developers had trouble, so did PS3 developers and even 360 developers were working on incomplete development kits while ATI and MS were adding in last min changesQuote:
but that either meant that they poured serious resources into building their own tools from scratch
So please don't expect it to have been any different for SEGA, much less the Saturn.
You want some actual facts ?Quote:
Either that, or the whole timeline for SDKs being released as Chilly Willy discussed a while back is wrong.
Fact in the Spring of 1994 developers Worldwide already had Saturn development kits with 80% of the machine final Power (already leading some to say the PSX was far more powerful) . In the Spring of 1994 SEGA Europe had set up a new office (2 years in the planning) in Chiswick with a £7.5 million spend by SOJ and in the spring of 1994 the Brand new office had and shipped out 40 Mars developments systems, and 50 Saturn kits for UK 32 bit developers confirmed by Mike Brogan -SEGA's then director of Product development.
So can we now stop the miss truths, PLEASE !!!!
Because STI started making the game before the 32X came out, and SEGA America were still held bent on trying to make the 32X succeed.Quote:
Why would they have spent over a year on the 32x version when the 32x was basically dead in less than that time
What the one I posted ? No there were two game engines , crazily being used for much the same game . Maddness in anyone bookQuote:
And given the article posted a while back, a large portion of the PC/Saturn development DID involve using the same engine
Making for only 1 Platform would have been the best and most easiest way, to have made sure the game made it out.Quote:
Making it Saturn first and PC second probably would have made the most sense for the time
Compared to you and your myths - The best one being SOA didn't know about the Saturn until 1995 .Quote:
Yet it's still pretty vague who was calling the shots on what issues and when and how much money was available
If you think like that , SOJ you must think the same for the Genesis then ?. You really think SOJ had a hand in that God awful Saturn pad resign, the piss poor new front end of the Saturn for the West ? Its again SOA thinking they knew best .Quote:
If nothing else, the Saturn launch in the US would be extremely odd if totally orchestrated/managed by SoA alone.
The Saturn lauch in the west would have been better with out the worry of the 32X, both in terms of game support and money to spend on PR. We can and should blame SOJ for no Sonic early in and piss poor development tools , early in (but to be fair in March of 1995, SOJ were putting that right)
WTF happened in here?
There is nothing technically wrong with Montana CD. The 3D graphics were amazing for the time. But it just wasn't as good as NFL 94 starring Joe Montana for Genesis which was released around the same time. I suppose it's a matter of preference but I think the graphics in the Genesis game look better even if they are not as technically advanced. The Genesis game is definitely faster. The audio of the Genesis game is far superior, too, because it happens in real-time rather than just some commentary after the play is over. After playing the Genesis version, the SegaCD game comes off as slow and silent (during the play); I think everyone including me would expect the SegaCD version to have better audio features than the cartridge. The strategy element in the SegaCD version is also inferior -- the playbooks and substitutions were simplified compared to the Genesis game. Also, the passing is less realistic in that you can just throw anywhere without "looking".
Overall, it's not a bad game. I would rate it much higher than a "2 out of 10". But it wasn't in the same league as Sega's own cartridge version. Of course, the cartridge version that year is the best 16-bit football game ever made, in my opinion, so it's a tough game to top. But given that both are Sega's games and both have access to Genesis *plus* Montana CD has the SegaCD, it just should have been the better game. It's not really even close after you play both of them.
P.S. - the video clips from Joe Montana are beyond stupid. Rather than giving relevant advice, Joe just gives generic tips that are not useful or even possible. If they had done this right, it really could have been a cool feature but as is, it's just annoying.
I don't play sports games much, but, the 3D graphics look sweet to me. *shrugs*
I'll follow this up by saying that Sega delivered their best baseball product in company history on the saturn - WSB 98. Incredible game, all their sports games should have been of that quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
To be honest, I don't think anything ever can top the original Joe Montana Football for the Genesis developed by Park Place Productions. They took the bull by the horns with that one, and I think if it wasn't scaled back it'd probably be the GREATEST 16-bit Football game. There was awesome gameplay, tight controls, good graphics, and overall great playability. And what more could you want? Playbook was easy to understand and yet expansive.
But When production of the JMF series got switched to Blue Sky, the series really never lived up to it's potential. I never played JMF II or '94, but Sports Talk '93 was an absolute DISASTER of a game, and Joe Montana Football CD looks even worse! I think they tried to do too much with the graphics, hence why everything else in the game seems to run so slow.
Well, I guess it couldn't be worse, it could be something like NFL's Greatest: San Francisco 49ers Vs. Dallas Cowboys. Yeesh!
I think the best 16-bit football games were the College Football's National Championship and CFNC II, along with Montana '94 and NFL'95 off the same engine. The only thing I do not get is that I recently picked up Prime Time NFL with Deion Sanders, also released in 1995, and it looks too much like the Madden and Bill Walsh games for my liking. Did Sega Sports try to emulate the Madden style for Prime time while using the Montana '94/CFNC engine for NFL '95? Why did they release two such different NFL games in 1995?
From what I remember Sega had got into a lawsuit with Joe Montana.Quote:
Originally Posted by tz101
I don't think the NFL 95 engine(which was improved, and used for Primetime, and NFL 98) looks or plays anything like the Madden games. Pretty big difference to me in the way the game looks, moves, the physics, the controls, the animations, all very different from the Genesis Madden games.
In my opinion they improved the passing game over NFL 94/CFNC big time with NFL 95/Primetime/98. Yet, at the same time it's still a deeper, closer simulation of the passing game. You still have to change the quarterback's focus to the reciever that you want to throw to, which is much more realistic. Plus the changing view where you could see 65 yards downfield as you dropped back in the pocket, there was nothing like that in any of the Madden games. The passing system introduced in NFL 95 was way ahead of its time.