What games did you want to see most on the 32X?

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Game window size wouldn't have anything to do with RAM . . . you render into the 2 128k framebuffers, so the 256 kB main RAM doesn't get consumed for that. Still, there's a huge difference for programming on a system with 256 kB work RAM and perhaps 6 MB of ROM vs hard drive and 4 MB work RAM. (even with a double buffered 320x200 back buffer in main RAM, that's still 3971 kB)

And even assuming all the variable code/data could be crammed into 256 kB, there's still the issue of actually fitting the game into ROM. Textures, 3D models, sound samples, maps, text, etc. And, again, without RAM to decompress into, you'd be stuck with using uncompressed data for a large portion of that. (and remember, a lot of PC games were using compressed data already to make better use of limited floppy space -and HDD install space, so comparing the raw HDD install size of the game might very well be deflated too)

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Bah, you're right. Gads I can't believe how much I've been slipping with these silly specs and whatnot. I was assuming the need for all kinds of data reorganization in the process of switching from PC to Cart based 32X game in this case. Sorry, having just spent way too much time trying to figure out how overclocking the Genesis affects Zero Tolerance, once I saw System Shock again I thought "perfect 32X game". That is assuming that the game would load every time a door opened or slightly before, which probably would be quite the trick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Car...DoM9ug&index=9

I would of liked more Mortal Kombat games.

A Road Rash game woulda been cool.

A Golden Axe game would of rocked!

Maybe a fishing game, too!

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Originally Posted by sheath

Bah, you're right. Gads I can't believe how much I've been slipping with these silly specs and whatnot. I was assuming the need for all kinds of data reorganization in the process of switching from PC to Cart based 32X game in this case. Sorry, having just spent way too much time trying to figure out how overclocking the Genesis affects Zero Tolerance, once I saw System Shock again I thought "perfect 32X game". That is assuming that the game would load every time a door opened or slightly before, which probably would be quite the trick.

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If nothing else, a demo version of the game could probably fit on the 32x, but unless you hacked it way, way down compared to the PC original, I don't see that game fitting onto a typical 1995 sized cart (and I was being generous with 6 MB, since no 32x games went beyond 4 and only one MD game ever went to 5).

This is all guess work though, since I don't have any hard technical information on the coding or data used in that game. Heh, if you cut out nearly all the textures and went flat shaded (with decals) it might have worked. ;) (not sure how much speech is in the floppy version, but you'd have to cut down a lot of the samples too)
Honestly, doing something like that would probably be a more realistic way of getting the game on the system without heavily sacrificing level design or gameplay . . . and the framerate should have been a good bit higher than texture mapping too.

The whole reasoning behind System Shock remaining a PC exclusive in general would be another discussion itself. ;) (same for many other PC games, some seemingly more marketable than others)



Interesting comparison with Zero Tolerance too. Given the improvements in framerate, it would seem that the game had a lot more headroom in terms of VDP DMA bandwidth, at least on average. (certain specific situations might allow near max framerate at stock speed) With the screen only 256x80 (10 kB worth of tile data) and with the game running in H40 with 224 lines active, you could get up to 30 FPS in NTSC or 50 FPS in PAL. However, the game would need to be coded to allow for using all DMA time, and I doubt it does that. (it would make more sense to code for the max expected framerate at stock speed, and minimize DMA -since it halts the CPU)

By pausing fusion and using fame advance, the max framerate I found was 12 FPS in NTSC (60 Hz 5 frames per screen update) and 12.5 FPS in PAL (4 50 Hz frames per update). I'd assume the game is timed by something other than v-sync/vblank, rather like PC games updating at a fixed (maximum) rate regardless of video refresh rate (ie VGA could be running at 60 or 70 Hz and the game would run the same speed). Sega Cinepak does this too, hence why there's no problem playing videos in PAL or NTSC without changes.
PAL video may actually may average 12 FPS too (it may take 5 frames once in a while, but I didn't notice), again, similar to Cinepak.

On another note, Zero Tolerance's dithering method would allow for simulated 12-bit RGB with 56 to 120 colors (15 colors from a 9-bit palette will make at least 56 useful blended colors approximating 12-bit RGB). Duke 3D and Toy Story use similar methods. Both these and checkerboard dither will blend completely with a single pass of motion blur (horizontal or veritcal), so using the scroll h-blur technique (shift 1 pixel left/right each frame), you'd get smooth blending in RGB too (and without the NTSC chroma artifacts seen in most encoders). This would be a good route for Sega CD FMV and 3D games where more color (palette and/or depth) was needed but resolution wasn't critical. (and given average oppinions I've seen, posterizing to 12-bit and then dithering/blending to 9-bit would look nicer than the average -more heavily ditherd- FMV fare . . . or the totally posterized 16 color stuff too)

Games using full 16 colors for blending (including the shared BG color) would allow for 64 to 136 pseudo 12-bit colors as a bitmap. As long as you don't need more than 25/30 FPS, this method is great. (H32 stuff would be noticeably blurrier too, but given how blurry composite is in H40 already, the h-blur method wouldn't really be a big disadvantage there either . . . technically it should allow more even blending in composite too and perhaps even out the chroma artifacts somewhat, or use H32 and avoid the artifacts mostly -models using the Samsung KA2196D encoder would be super blurry already in H40 and not show chroma artifacts either . . . probably the best examples to use for the games with this sort of dithering ;))




Wolf3D is really impressive on the SNES though . . . 1/4 res rendering to mode 7 video is really interesting (112x96), and I really wonder why that wasn't done more often. (or 1/2 res for that matter -probably would have worked a lot better for Doom than mode 3 . . . probably better for Stunt Race FX too -other games benefit more from higher res and framerates are OK, so the trade-offs would be greater) Toy Story is the only other mode 7 renderer I know of.
I'm going to assume that Wolf 3D at least uses 3.58 MHz ROM though.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

If nothing else, a demo version of the game could probably fit on the 32x, but unless you hacked it way, way down compared to the PC original, I don't see that game fitting onto a typical 1995 sized cart (and I was being generous with 6 MB, since no 32x games went beyond 4 and only one MD game ever went to 5).

This is all guess work though, since I don't have any hard technical information on the coding or data used in that game. Heh, if you cut out nearly all the textures and went flat shaded (with decals) it might have worked. ;) (not sure how much speech is in the floppy version, but you'd have to cut down a lot of the samples too)
Honestly, doing something like that would probably be a more realistic way of getting the game on the system without heavily sacrificing level design or gameplay . . . and the framerate should have been a good bit higher than texture mapping too.

The whole reasoning behind System Shock remaining a PC exclusive in general would be another discussion itself. ;) (same for many other PC games, some seemingly more marketable than others)

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I basically assume that any subsequent PC FPS ports to the 32X would use the same Doom engine of Doom 32X with some tweaks, or some similar engine. Doom and Unreal pretty much existed as early "middleware" concepts as licensed "engines" that were ported/adapted for as many platforms as possible. Granted, System Shock is "fully 3D" so maybe it would have needed the Metal Head engine instead.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Interesting comparison with Zero Tolerance too. Given the improvements in framerate, it would seem that the game had a lot more headroom in terms of VDP DMA bandwidth, at least on average. (certain specific situations might allow near max framerate at stock speed) With the screen only 256x80 (10 kB worth of tile data) and with the game running in H40 with 224 lines active, you could get up to 30 FPS in NTSC or 50 FPS in PAL. However, the game would need to be coded to allow for using all DMA time, and I doubt it does that. (it would make more sense to code for the max expected framerate at stock speed, and minimize DMA -since it halts the CPU)

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Yeah, I have no idea. Even months after I finished the Overclock and started fooling with it Barone was still trying to get me to stop saying "variable framerate". It took me a while to realize that there were no new frames added by the overclock, everything was just faster.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

By pausing fusion and using fame advance, the max framerate I found was 12 FPS in NTSC (60 Hz 5 frames per screen update) and 12.5 FPS in PAL (4 50 Hz frames per update). I'd assume the game is timed by something other than v-sync/vblank, rather like PC games updating at a fixed (maximum) rate regardless of video refresh rate (ie VGA could be running at 60 or 70 Hz and the game would run the same speed). Sega Cinepak does this too, hence why there's no problem playing videos in PAL or NTSC without changes.
PAL video may actually may average 12 FPS too (it may take 5 frames once in a while, but I didn't notice), again, similar to Cinepak.

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Didn't they release the source code for Zero Tolerance? Surely somebody around here could definitively answer this question.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

On another note, Zero Tolerance's dithering method would allow for simulated 12-bit RGB with 56 to 120 colors (15 colors from a 9-bit palette will make at least 56 useful blended colors approximating 12-bit RGB). Duke 3D and Toy Story use similar methods. Both these and checkerboard dither will blend completely with a single pass of motion blur (horizontal or veritcal), so using the scroll h-blur technique (shift 1 pixel left/right each frame), you'd get smooth blending in RGB too (and without the NTSC chroma artifacts seen in most encoders). This would be a good route for Sega CD FMV and 3D games where more color (palette and/or depth) was needed but resolution wasn't critical. (and given average oppinions I've seen, posterizing to 12-bit and then dithering/blending to 9-bit would look nicer than the average -more heavily ditherd- FMV fare . . . or the totally posterized 16 color stuff too)

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Yeah the kind of dithering on the floors in Zero Tolerance blends quite well. I didn't mind it when they used similar methods in skylines like in Ranger X or Street Fighter II SCE. Sometimes it blends better than a straight gradient would. I'm not sure how much work it would take to stagger pixels like that in other types of games though, especially not FMV.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Games using full 16 colors for blending (including the shared BG color) would allow for 64 to 136 pseudo 12-bit colors as a bitmap. As long as you don't need more than 25/30 FPS, this method is great. (H32 stuff would be noticeably blurrier too, but given how blurry composite is in H40 already, the h-blur method wouldn't really be a big disadvantage there either . . . technically it should allow more even blending in composite too and perhaps even out the chroma artifacts somewhat, or use H32 and avoid the artifacts mostly -models using the Samsung KA2196D encoder would be super blurry already in H40 and not show chroma artifacts either . . . probably the best examples to use for the games with this sort of dithering ;))

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A lot of this kind of dithering looks good over RGB (actual, not emulation) while sitting a decent distance from a CRT as well. I'm not sure if the horizontal nature of it is what makes it blend better with scanlines or not, I can see the nasty dithering in MKIII and Earthworm Jim's backgrounds no problem even over Composite, but stuff like Zero Tolerance and other games with horizontal staggered pixels are almost perfectly blended.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

Wolf3D is really impressive on the SNES though . . . 1/4 res rendering to mode 7 video is really interesting (112x96), and I really wonder why that wasn't done more often. (or 1/2 res for that matter -probably would have worked a lot better for Doom than mode 3 . . . probably better for Stunt Race FX too -other games benefit more from higher res and framerates are OK, so the trade-offs would be greater) Toy Story is the only other mode 7 renderer I know of.
I'm going to assume that Wolf 3D at least uses 3.58 MHz ROM though.

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Yeah, Wolf 3D is a marvel on SNES to be sure. I was surprised at how jerky it looks while running so fast, but that was about it. Oh and the music is WAY worse than Doom 32X. ;)

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Originally Posted by sheath

Didn't they release the source code for Zero Tolerance? Surely somebody around here could definitively answer this question.

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No, they released the rom binary for free, and posted how to make your own link cable. No code has been released.

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Originally Posted by Metallica Man X

Woh, that's alotta cancelled games!

From that list of cancelled that look interesting to me:

Surgical Strike

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Sorry if mentioned in thread already but that game was released in Brazil.

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Chilly Willy
Sonic Xtreme

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Also I thought Sonic XTreme was for Saturn not 32 x ? Maybe they were trying for both idk.

Edit : Just saw this :

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Originally Posted by Cornholio857

Actually, Sonic X-Treme was to be on the 32X before being moved to the Saturn.

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Tomb Raider

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Yeah.

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Lastcallhall

-Super Street Fighter II Turbo
-Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 (If only to see how Sculptured Software would handle a MK release on the 32x)
-Darkstalkers
-Some sort of true Sonic game

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Hell yeah.

My request, Alone in the Dark I (or II) that was basically complete but never released (probably was a sega cd 32 x game) ?

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sheath

Yeah, Wolf 3D is a marvel on SNES to be sure. I was surprised at how jerky it looks while running so fast, but that was about it. Oh and the music is WAY worse than Doom 32X.

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Duke Nukem 3D on Genesis in Brazil ftw. Ha joking. Still impressive though. Or is it ? Master System had those Phantasy Star cave 3D scenes.

Going to look over whole thread, thanks sheath.

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Edi (FZ2D)

Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Alone in the Dark and Aisle Lord in english.

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Splatterhouse5

Aliens vs Predator

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I agree.

I read half the thread so far, I'll read the other half tomorrow. A game I would have luved to see then or now, is the Jaguar version of Tempest 2000 on 32 x.

Ok decided to read rest of thread. Great read. Although I got some questions, forgive my ignorance.

I luv converting dvdhd into mpeg and burn on vcd to watch on my Saturn and DC (2013 conversion makes it look more like DVD than VHS). I do this just for the retro of it. But if FMV the ancestor of mpeg/vcd basically ?

Ok, If I download this can I watch this like a picture scroll on my Sega CD hardware ?
http://www.mediafire.com/?j433ka081khwbb8

Is that like a jpeg viewer sega cd iso/disc or something ?

Has anyone ever made their own FMV footage ?

Has a 32xCD game/rom ever been "homebrewed" yet ?

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Originally Posted by djvectorman

Ok, If I download this can I watch this like a picture scroll on my Sega CD hardware ?
http://www.mediafire.com/?j433ka081khwbb8

Is that like a jpeg viewer sega cd iso/disc or something ?

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Sort of - the images need to be converted into the proper format before they can be viewed. It was one of the earlier demos for Direct Color DMA done to show still images. My demo based on LCDWolf3D shows how an actual game might use the mode.

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Has anyone ever made their own FMV footage ?

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I plan to make a FMV demo for the mode, but not sure when it'll be done.

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Has a 32xCD game/rom ever been "homebrewed" yet ?

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I did a CD32X MOD player that shows how CD32X homebrew would be done. It's one of the first CD32X homebrews I'm aware of, but I can do better. :)

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

Sort of - the images need to be converted into the proper format before they can be viewed. It was one of the earlier demos for Direct Color DMA done to show still images. My demo based on LCDWolf3D shows how an actual game might use the mode.

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Is their a link or can you tell me how to do it ? I'd like to view this on my Sega CD hardware just for novelty,

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I plan to make a FMV demo for the mode, but not sure when it'll be done.

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Awesome !

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I did a CD32X MOD player that shows how CD32X homebrew would be done. It's one of the first CD32X homebrews I'm aware of, but I can do better. :)

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Link ?

Also "But is FMV the ancestor of mpeg/vcd basically ?" Is FMV a mpeg or earlier type of video code ?

Out of curiosity Chilly have you thought of porting Cannonball over to the 32X? Or is the code too PC oriented?

For those who don't know Cannonball is an open source recreation of the OutRun engine created through reverse engineering the original game:
http://reassembler.blogspot.co.uk/p/...un-engine.html

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Originally Posted by djvectorman

Is their a link or can you tell me how to do it ? I'd like to view this on my Sega CD hardware just for novelty,

Link ?

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Look in the forums... most of them are still on the first page. You might also want to look through the SpritesMind forums. Most all my demos come with code. I only arc just the binary when the code didn't change from the last release (changed the pictures and nothing else, for example).

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Also "But is FMV the ancestor of mpeg/vcd basically ?" Is FMV a mpeg or earlier type of video code ?

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FMV is just Full Motion Video. It can be done in any number of ways, including mpeg. It's not worth my time to try to present a history on the subject - that's what wikipedia is for. ;) :lol:

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Out of curiosity Chilly have you thought of porting Cannonball over to the 32X? Or is the code too PC oriented?

For those who don't know Cannonball is an open source recreation of the OutRun engine created through reverse engineering the original game:
http://reassembler.blogspot.co.uk/p/...un-engine.html

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It's written toward a PC - infinite memory and cpu power. It could probably be used as a base for a 32X version, but the video in particular would need to be redone. I like race games, so Cannonball IS on my todo list, just not sure when I'll get to working on it.

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Originally Posted by djvectorman

Has anyone ever made their own FMV footage ?

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Yes, there's a member on Sega-16 who has been working with Cinepak encoding for the Sega CD, and there's several demos of that (including a conversion of the Bad Apple! video).

Also, an episode of Game Sack was done entirely in Sega CD video (looks to be a mix of Cinepak and some uncompressed formats -the choppier sections with different dither . . . the color doesn't seem to be super optimized either, but it's interesting at least -the choppy segments might be cinepak too, just with a lower compression ratio and different dither).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PggO1YWT8pk

Ha ha the end of that video is classic, thank you kool kitty89. I can't believe some of those FMV were mpeg format wow they look 100 x worse than VCD. Yes I know it's all old technology overall though. I liked Eternal Champion CD intro and stuff (not saying it's totally a FMV game as I luved it as a 2D fighter). Maybe if Atari7800 would have released on time (not years later) with it's Laser Active add on with Dragon Lair, NEC and Sega would have learned not to have FMV games like a decade later ? Just use for intros and skits.

Btw, a Tempest 2000 Jaguar version to 32 x could be done right ?

Well yeah, Tempest 2000 isn't exactly a technical marvel, but we would still need the source code to do a proper port. Sega CD video looks the way it does because the display is limited to four 15 color palettes, sometimes just one 15 color palette. The same compression schemes with eight palettes or more looks a lot better on the TG16-CD, 32X video is using the same compression and the same Sega CD and looks a lot closer to VCD as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCiIjMNP2xI

Of course highly optimized Sega CD video looks a lot better than badly optimized (duh).

Loadstar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygPo5m1uo7A

Sewer Shark (warf):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1WEq3dhnnI