Model 2 Audio Quality

For those people who are looking to buy a genesis/mega drive and are concerned about audio quality, just wanted to let you know i have bought two sega genesis' model 2s in the past month and there is a difference between the two. I used to own a genesis (model 1) when it first came out and i recorded a lot of music onto tape when it first came out, so i know what it should sound like. The 1st genesis i bought (model 2) was manufactured in october of 96 and it outputs some really clean sound (minus the video noise - which is neglible.) The next genesis i bought (manufactured in september of 93) has distorted audio and adds quite a bit of noise to the output. i dont know if this is just on my unit or not, but i wanted to let those people out there know in case they were looking for a system with good audio quality. ive recorded samples from both of my systems in case anyone wants to hear the difference. send me an email to xbrinkx@hotmail.com if you would like to hear some samples.

Just put them up on www.rapidshare.de or www.yousendit.com instead.

Yeah, and write a feature about it.

Good info to have! This may need more consoles tested to be confirmed, though. I have a couple Genny 2s I can run the audio Pepsi challenge on.

Now this is another idea worth getting behind. I've got an Aug 1993 model 2 Mega Drive, and I've got no problems - other than a 'buzz', but that's most likely the cheap SCART cable I'm using. Remember, if you're going to compare them side-by-side you have to factor in the cables you're using. You'll get better audio from a SCART or RCA connection than an RF connnection, after all.

Ok, I uploaded some samples from Sonic 2 to http://rapidshare.de/files/33151060/MD_Samples.zip.html. These recordings were made using the same power supply, a/v cable, and controller to insure the only variable is the Genesis. Recordings made from the '93 Genesis are referred to as 'VA1' (the motherboard designation) and recordings from the '96 Genesis are referred to as 'VA4.' Notice the VA1 samples sound like they are overdriven and buzzy and when each sound plays, there is a half-second 'extra' note at the end, unlike the VA4 samples. Thanks for the pointer to the free upload site! I think it's a good idea to get some more samples from other units to see if there are any other differences. I'll try to upload a song or two tonight later tonight. Thanks for the feedback!

Gee... I should compare my Genesis consoles. I own a Model 1 -- the SOR 2 system, and a Model 2 that came with Sonic 2.

For what it's worth... I have no problems. The AC adaptor is snug, and no other problems.

Hey David, if you get the chance, try to put up some samples from your model 1 and model 2 systems so we can compare them. I put up a sound clip from Thunder Force II (didn't do the whole song cause it takes forever to upload something using your cell phone) comparing my '93 to my '96 Genesis. I also included some pictures of the motherboards if anyone wants to take their system apart and compare! The file can be downloaded at http://rapidshare.de/files/33163334/TFII_MBs.zip.html

I believe I also have a similar problem with my model 2 Genesis audio quality. The sound is rather distorted when there is a good amount of bass and the treble is not very clear (almost scratchy sounding), especially on games with louder than average sound level. It might be that a bad or faulty sound chip. I think it was manufactured in the latter half of 1993 but cannot be certain until I look at the unit. It was made in Japan, I know for sure. It was a Genesis 2 core unit, not the one packaged with Sonic 2.

Hmm.. I'd have no problem doing it for you, but how would I record the audio to my pc?

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Originally Posted by segagamer

I believe I also have a similar problem with my model 2 Genesis audio quality. The sound is rather distorted when there is a good amount of bass and the treble is not very clear (almost scratchy sounding), especially on games with louder than average sound level. It might be that a bad or faulty sound chip. I think it was manufactured in the latter half of 1993 but cannot be certain until I look at the unit. It was made in Japan, I know for sure. It was a Genesis 2 core unit, not the one packaged with Sonic 2.

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I thought I was having problems with my model's bass, thanks to what I was hearing in Streets of Rage's first level. I expected a much more 'thud-thud-thud' beat the first time I played it on hardware - until I played a .vgz rip in Winamp that sounded exactly the same.

I don't think there can be that much difference in audio quality between models that can't be explained by poor connections, poor cable quality, a wierd TV setup, or a combination of all three. Maybe it's all in our heads?

Hey David, what I did to record the audio from my systems was to connect the RCA cables for the audio from the a/v cable into a stereo RCA to 3.5mm adapter. I then plugged that into the line-in input on my soundcard. I used a program called GoldWave to record and trim the samples and then to convert them to mp3s. If you need more help, let me know. Can anyone hear the differences in the samples I put up?

I might have all of that lying around... but I'll compare your samples to my systems, but I only have mono AV cables...

OK here are a couple of stereo recordings from my awesome launch day Genesis 1 that is 17 years old.

Thunder Force 2 Stage 01 - 708K
This tune is the same that xbrinkx uploaded from his Genesis 2s. Mine is a little bit longer in length just for fun. Contrast and compare to xbrinkx's files. My Thunder Force 2 cartridge is also launch day.

Streets of Rage - Stage 6 - 752K
I included this tune (also from the sound test) because it has tremendous amounts of bass that hits you right from the beginning, so I feel it is a good test. If your speakers are good, you will FEEL this tune.

Thanks Joe for the samples! I compared your Thunder Force II sample to mine and yours is slightly clearer than my '96 Genesis (just a bit more treble, bass notes still sound the same.) Your system doesnt have the distortion like my '93 Genesis does. Launch day Genesis?! Wow...I had to sell mine several years ago (wasn't a launch day one, but it was a model 1.) I listened to the Streets of Rage track and it sounds like I remember. I don't have the game though, but I should soon. The only games I've got now are Sonic, Sonic 2, Dr Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine, Thunder Force II, Thunder Force III, & Warlock, so my samples are kind of limited.

David, if you can put up some samples (mono is fine) that would be great. I know we dont have enough recordings from the various systems, but it looks like the first model is in the lead, followed by the VA4 ('96) board, and then the VA1 ('93) board. Also, I noticed the '93 system was made in Thailand and the '96 system was made in China.

My system was made in Japan by elves I think.

If you want to compare any more, just let me know and I can make recordings. Out of the games you have, I have Sonic 1, 2, and Thunder Force 2 & 3.

I noticed a huge difference between the two models, via Streets Of Rage 2, one of the best music to be heard from a Mega Drive game. However, on model 2, once the bass comes on each track, the music goes all very quiet, weird.

Hey Joe, if you have some free time, please make recordings of BGM 00, 01, & 04 from Thunder Force III. I'd like to compare these as well to ensure everything is consistent. Henry, it sounds like your model 2 has a defective chip or something if the music is cutting out like that once the bass kicks in.

It could be his receiver or stereo system or something. It could be on "midnight mode" or the like where it reduces volume when it thinks the sound is loud or intense.

I'll get those recordings of TF3 up soon. Keep checking back.

EDIT:

OK here ya go:

Thunder Force 3 BGM - 00

Thunder Force 3 BGM - 01

Thunder Force 3 BGM - 04

All recorded from model 1 launch unit (with high definition graphics and no license screen at start up)

The soundtrack of Thunder Force III is godlier than Rome, Jerusalem and Mecca together.

Thanks Joe for the samples. Again, your recordings are a bit clearer than mine. Maybe it's time I go ahead and get a model 1 again! When you make your recordings, do you route the audio from the headphone jack or did you do a mod on your system where you route the output to some RCA jacks?

Zebbe, yes the music from Thunder Force III is really great. When I rented the game and heard the music for the first stage (Hydra), I was extremely impressed. The beginning part with the 'slide' effect is really cool!

Mod my system for RCA jacks? Well I suppose if I hated having money and I had absolutely no ability in logic and reason I might have that done. But my audio goes out of the headphone jack (volume slider all the way up) and into the mixing input of the Sega CD. Then it goes out the Sega CD's RCA jacks. So believe it or not that's actually an extra step the audio must go through since it is going through the Sega CD. Coming straight from the headphone jacks might be a little cleaner, but I highly doubt that most people in the world would be able to perceive the difference if there is any. I am kind of an audiophile bastard and it's good enough for me.

Would you mind doing a couple of recordings straight from your Genesis minus the Sega CD? I'm an audiophile myself and would like to know if the Sega CD makes any difference on the sound coming from the Genesis. Thanks.

I have and I can't hear a difference. On a level meter you can see a slight difference as the noise floor is ever so slightly lower without the Sega CD attached, but I simply can't hear any noise in either as the noise floor is very low even with the Sega CD. We're talking -70db or so.

Here's a question. Did the MegaDrive/Genesis play sound/music at 22050Hz or 44100Hz?

PS - Joe, I love your rendition of 'Door Into Summer', great work. Other great tunes from Chaotix are Midnight Greenhouse, Seascape and This Horizon.

i don't know what the digital to analog converter had in the YM2612 (not the 6th channel DAC, but the DAC that converts the FM sounds to something you can hear), i don't think it was ever documented..

but in the model 2, it sounds like it's in the 10000Hz range, where the model one sounds like it's in the 20000Hz range... (not totally noticable, but my ears are sensitive, I can hear the fuzziness VERY clearly)..

After searching on the subject there is no info at all. I was thinking the model 1 was around 20000. Certainly sounds like it after hearing those clips above.

yea, the only way would we know the specs of the FM DACs, is contacting Yamaha, SEGA wouldn't know those specs, as they aren't required facts to even program the Genesis (it's all handled by the 2612 internally)... the 6th channel sound DAC IS however required to know, and ITS specs are there on the net, I remember it being horribly low..

So it's official; model 1 has better quality sound.

Ugh yeah, I'd hate to get a model 2 to be honest, the model 1 just feels a lot more superior. I'll always probably stay well clear of a model 2 and would only get one for collectable reasons.

Thinking about it, I remember way back when the model 2 was released. My friend had one, and I had my model 1, I just hated the look of the model 2 and it just didn't feel right.

I suppose the model 2 had to be a little worse off than the model 1 though, after all it was made to cut production costs, and it came at the cost of quality aswell.

not only that, the ABS plastic on the model 2, is slightly cheaper too.. when i hold my model 2, it actually creaks.. my model 1 does not..

I think the DAC tops out at 22050Hz for all models. But a sample rate is N/A for the FM and PSG channels. If you record FM and PSG audio at 22050Hz, you will hear a difference if you listen closely, especially in the high frequencies. If you record it at 44100 Hz it will sound just fine.

Oh and thanks for the compliments on the Knuckles' music!

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Originally Posted by evildragon

not only that, the ABS plastic on the model 2, is slightly cheaper too.. when i hold my model 2, it actually creaks.. my model 1 does not..

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The same is true for the Model 2 US/EU Saturn controller. The American version is very crappy, while the Japanese pad (same pad, but different colors) is a LOT stronger.

well for FM, it needs to have a DAC, so there is a frequency limitation.. this is true for all Yamaha YM chips (trust me, I have messed around with Yamaha equipment my whole life)..

And from what I can tell, the Genesis 2 without a doubt, has lower frequency range than a model 1 does...

FM sounds are analog, not digital. There is no need for sample rate or a DAC.

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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

FM sounds are analog, not digital. There is no need for sample rate or a DAC.

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You're wrong on this.. Internally they are digital (hence they are called "Digital Synthesizers"), and NEED to be converted to analog..

Proof of this: The YM3812 FM synthesizer REQUIRES an EXTERNAL DAC, to hear it, because it comes out of the chip digitally... The YM2612 just has an INTERNAL DAC, but it still is digital..

On the YM2612 from searching: "Unlike OPN this chip does not require seperate serial DACs, having two analogue outputs. This allowed Sega to claim "digital stereo sound" in the Mega Drive console."

That is meaning, because the original OPN required an external DAC.. And this is NOT talking about digitized sound samples, it's talking about FM sounds..

Things like 44100Hz are sampling frequencies. Digital data controls the sound... it has to. Perhaps you mean frequency response which does not exceed 20,000Hz. However if you take it into an full octave EQ and start turning down the upper frequencies like 20K, 16K, 12K etc you WILL hear a large difference in the sound, so the Genesis goes up to 20,000Hz in frequency response (way more than 10,000Hz which would sound extremely muffled).

Anyone can claim "digital sound" just by stating that there is digital data on the cartridge that tells the synths what to do. It's not like there is such a thing as truth in advertising.

Perhaps you didn't understand the fact that I know synthesizers, I live, breathe, and even build synthesizers...
FM synthesizers internally are dealing with digital sounds, what I am saying is, it's like SPDIF, it's digital transport of analog sound... That is how FM synthesizers work, they make FM sounds, sure, but internally it's not analog audio that can drive a speaker, it's digital SPDIF-like data, and requires a DAC to translate it into sound that you can hear..

So yes, it IS sampling frequency..

Look, I know what I am talking about... Before FM synthesis, you REALLY had analog synthesizers.. FM is all digital, till it makes it to the DAC to be heard...

The best proof, as I already stated, is the YM3812 chip.. It has NO DAC.... You can take that chip, and try to get a sound out of it, but you will get NON.. Look up the data sheet for the 3812.. It's FM sounds, but notice it outputs only digital audio, and requires an D/A converter to actually use it..

What I am trying to say, is that the Genesis' 2612 has the DAC built into it, hence why you don't see an external DAC, because it's "on-chip", but it is sampling to a certain frequency, of what the DAC could do at the time... And as I already said, this is a DIFFERENT DAC than the one used to play sound clips... Totally un-related..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YM2612
(notice the line "Analogue stereo output (most other contemporary Yamaha FM chips require a separate external digital-to-analog converter chip)".. it's analog because the 2612 has it all built into it)

Well then perhaps I misunderstood. How about PSG?

And you also now understand that the Z80 isn't needed to hear sound?

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Originally Posted by Joe Redifer

Well then perhaps I misunderstood. How about PSG?

And you also now understand that the Z80 isn't needed to hear sound?

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i still don't understand how you can do without the Z80, especially with games like F22 Interceptor..

PSG, I think that's old fasion analog, no DAC involved at all..