Piracy: Justifiable or Not?

I'm definitely interested in picking up a copy of Pier Solar if there's a reprint run.

However -- this is a rhetorical question -- what happens when these new games people are making go completely out of production? At what point is it going to be morally acceptable (from the production companies' perspectives) for these to be freely available for download in some form? (And this is still ignoring the anti-piracy measures that have been put into place on the carts/ROM data.)

I just think it's an intriguing moral question -- I'm not advocating depriving these people of their hard-earned money.

I think it's already been discussed before; Pirating Pier Solar is a no-no. Watermelon would only allow it if they declared the game freeware or abandonware, which is unlikely to happen.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

I think it's already been discussed before; Pirating Pier Solar is a no-no. Watermelon would only allow it if they declared the game freeware or abandonware, which is unlikely to happen.

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I doubt any media company allows for piracy of their products.

I'm sure that very few games have been dumped with the authors blessing. I imagine eventually the special treatment watermelon is getting will disappear.

I think its only fair is a company doesnt provide anyway to buy a game for more than a year then it should have no issues with people pirating their game. You offer the consumer no reasonable means to purchase the game. However if after said game has been pirated and the company decides to sell the game for another system, piracy talk shouldnt be aallowed again for that product. It's up to the parent company to make sure people don't pirate their games. The easiest way to do this is by selling said game.

Oh, so one year. Awesome. I'll remember that for any blu-ray movies I may be looking for. I'll count the days and when it's been one year...

¬¬

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

I doubt any media company allows for piracy of their products.

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Most people fail to realize that. Often they are like Clessy and try to rationalize piracy, but they end up failing hard anyway.

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Originally Posted by Clessy

I think its only fair is a company doesnt provide anyway to buy a game for more than a year then it should have no issues with people pirating their game. You offer the consumer no reasonable means to purchase the game. However if after said game has been pirated and the company decides to sell the game for another system, piracy talk shouldnt be aallowed again for that product. It's up to the parent company to make sure people don't pirate their games. The easiest way to do this is by selling said game.

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Thanks for contributing to the problem of piracy. It's people like you that give consumers a bad name, hence why they are trying to kill video gaming with DRM and copy protection.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

Thanks for contributing to the problem of piracy. It's people like you that give consumers a bad name, hence why they are trying to kill video gaming with DRM and copy protection.

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And yet it's the pirates and hackers that allow the paying customers to enjoy their games without that crippling DRM and copy protection when it gets in the way of the game being able to be installed (or even run). This comes thanks to no DVD/CD fixed executables, user made patches to get around things like Steam (I wouldn't have been able to play my retail copy of Darksiders otherwise), and things like that. Sure, it helps people get something for free through illegal means, but it also helps those of us who pay out the cash and wind up getting screwed.

It's the circle of life, Simba ;)

That's all fine and well, but what about when publishers get pissy about pirates breaking their security measures? They start making things even worse for paying consumers, even going so far as to limit functionality when not playing online (like SF4: Arcade Edition).

That circle of life is more like a spiral downward, Simba...

People who claim they are entitled to work by others rarely have any work of their own they entitle to others.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

That's all fine and well, but what about when publishers get pissy about pirates breaking their security measures? They start making things even worse for paying consumers, even going so far as to limit functionality when not playing online (like SF4: Arcade Edition).

That circle of life is more like a spiral downward, Simba...

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And rest assured, someone'll be cracking that too. If they found ways to play Steam games without Steam being connected, and found ways around that on-line only stuff so you no longer have to be on-line, limited functionality will be the next target.

Where there's a will, there's a way. And hackers and pirates have shown they'll find it if they're interested. Do I condone it? Not really, but I can't deny how handy their efforts have been.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

Most people fail to realize that. Often they are like Clessy and try to rationalize piracy, but they end up failing hard anyway.



Thanks for contributing to the problem of piracy. It's people like you that give consumers a bad name, hence why they are trying to kill video gaming with DRM and copy protection.

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Lmao fuck off. I have a first print posterity version of Pier Solar. You're an idiot. If there is no way to buy something piracy is the answer. Or you could buy a copy second hand that gives absolutely no money to the company that made it. Just listing to your bullshit gives me a headacke.

Oh the blu ray comment thats totally retarded. Those movies are still in print. Hence the 1 year of not being in print. But you failed to comprehend that.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

That's all fine and well, but what about when publishers get pissy about pirates breaking their security measures? They start making things even worse for paying consumers, even going so far as to limit functionality when not playing online (like SF4: Arcade Edition).

That circle of life is more like a spiral downward, Simba...

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You should be complaining to the companies not the hackers. No matter what its the companies fault.

Plus its the age old rule. People who pirate something more than likely wouldnt of bought it in the first place. I use to pirate tons of stuff when I was in middle. Without doing so i'd of missed many of great games. My parents only have so much money and would only buy so much. Without piracy I wouldnt of learned a health respect for gaming and imports. I can't even thinnk of the last time i've pirated anything now. Its all about money people who are pirating things didnt have to money to buy it either.

Lets end this stupid circle debate right now with you having your opinion and me having mine.

I have a Reprint copy of Pier Solar, so I supported Watermelon too, but you'd probably say a Classic/Posterity copy gives you a bigger e-peen.

No matter the circumstance, piracy is unethical. It doesn't matter if a game is 1 year old or 30 years old. If you can't buy a copy from the developer/publisher who owns the rights to the game, well that's their problem. That doesn't somehow magically give you the legal right to pirate it (unless copyright law suddenly changes). There's nothing stopping you from pirating the game, but don't expect people to agree with your ridiculous claim that it's somehow justified.

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Originally Posted by Clessy

You should be complaining to the companies not the hackers. No matter what its the companies fault.

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See, that's where the problem I pointed out occurs. You guys enjoy what hackers and pirates achieve, but it only makes the publishers angrier. Before long those companies will use those hackers and pirates as a strawman for rationalizing the move to digital distribution, which is something I'd like to hope everyone despises.

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Plus its the age old rule. People who pirate something more than likely wouldnt of bought it in the first place. I use to pirate tons of stuff when I was in middle. Without doing so i'd of missed many of great games. My parents only have so much money and would only buy so much. Without piracy I wouldnt of learned a health respect for gaming and imports. I can't even thinnk of the last time i've pirated anything now. Its all about money people who are pirating things didnt have to money to buy it either

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This rationality never gets old! Ahahaha... :D

EDIT: Removing extra quotes

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Originally Posted by Guntz

This rationality never gets old! Ahahaha... :D

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What are you the guy who thinks poor people steal food because they're cheap and not because they're starving?

You are a very funny man Clessy.

People need to eat in order to survive. So I guess going by your logic, pirating entertainment media is required in order to sustain life too? Well maybe for some people that's true, but science says otherwise.

:lol:

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Originally Posted by Guntz

No matter the circumstance, piracy is unethical. It doesn't matter if a game is 1 year old or 30 years old. If you can't buy a copy from the developer/publisher who owns the rights to the game, well that's their problem. That doesn't somehow magically give you the legal right to pirate it (unless copyright law suddenly changes). There's nothing stopping you from pirating the game, but don't expect people to agree with your ridiculous claim that it's somehow justified.

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It is justifiable given the circular nature of the argument. It's just contentious. Developers use DRM as a tool to force people into finding a more convenient alternative, and there is nothing more convenient for them than controlling the publishing distribution digitally. The same can be said about movies. From a consumer perspective, it's easier to take what you want specifically via piracy, or the new culture of On Demand videos (If you can't beat the price, you got to increase the value of your offer.)

What ever is easier and less of a headache, will win in the end. Ethics don't usually enter the equation, champ. Games and movies are toys to distract most people from the real world. They're appreciated to an extent, but not tolerated if becoming a burden in some way to the consumer.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

See, that's where the problem I pointed out occurs. You guys enjoy what hackers and pirates achieve, but it only makes the publishers angrier. Before long those companies will use those hackers and pirates as a strawman for rationalizing the move to digital distribution, which is something I'd like to hope everyone despises.

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You despise digital distribution because you lose the game collection artifact and offer up too much personal control of your purchased content to the publisher, so you would fearfully protect them with light ethically based criticisms? Their goal is profit, the digital distribution model is becoming easier to implement and more convenient than retail box stores. Developers themselves pirate content, it's the new world we live in.


Digital distribution is the future or everything, embrace it or fuck off. Either way, find something else to complain about... preferably something less futile.

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

Digital distribution is the future or everything, embrace it or fuck off. Either way, find something else to complain about... preferably something less futile.

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There will always be physical media, maybe not in as large a form as it is now, but It'll still exist. I know one thing, I'll never pay money for "Intangible Goods".

To each their own.;)

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Originally Posted by Clessy

Plus its the age old rule. People who pirate something more than likely wouldnt of bought it in the first place. I use to pirate tons of stuff when I was in middle. Without doing so i'd of missed many of great games. My parents only have so much money and would only buy so much. Without piracy I wouldnt of learned a health respect for gaming and imports. I can't even thinnk of the last time i've pirated anything now. Its all about money people who are pirating things didnt have to money to buy it either.

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This whole argument reeks of self-entitlement. "I can't afford it, so I have a right to take it." I'd like a Porche but can't afford one. Does that give me the right to steal one? No? But I wouldn't have been able to drive one otherwise!

Protip: If your hobby is too expensive for you, get another hobby. No one is forcing you to play video games, and it's not something you need to survive. Comparing it to people stealing food is a flawed comparison because video games are entertainment, not a basic necessity that you'll die without.

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

What ever is easier and less of a headache, will win in the end. Ethics don't usually enter the equation, champ. Games and movies are toys to distract most people from the real world. They're appreciated to an extent, but not tolerated if becoming a burden in some way to the consumer.

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It sounds like you're only viewing this from the perspective of the consumer though. If it becomes too much of a burden, buy something else. Sales will drop, and companies will make adjustments to bring customers back. I don't understand why buying something for leisure would ever be considered a burden in the first place. No one is entitled to just take something that belongs to someone else, especially when said item is protected under the law. Ethics might not enter the equation for consumers, who can just go and download a torrent to get what they want, but it sure as hell matters to the publisher as soon as it affects its bottom line.

The fact is, WM isn't obligated to do jack. They sell the game; you buy it. You missed out? Buy it on the second hand market. "They don't make it anymore" does not equate to being freeware. This whole attitude of self-entitlement is what has the gaming industry in the state it's in, and it's why I grow less and less enthusiastic about modern games each day.

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Originally Posted by eddiespruce

There will always be physical media, maybe not in as large a form as it is now, but It'll still exist. I know one thing, I'll never pay money for "Intangible Goods".

To each their own.;)

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Always is a long time. You're thinking like a collector rather than a rational mass-market consumer. Holding more value in the artifact than the content. If there was an easy and ubiqutous way of owning and storing digital content (Cracked, DRM Free software/movies/music) and it was easy to find and obtain for low cost, then it will succeed. Piracy is in demand for a reason, and ethics don't undermine it. Content distribution needs to adapt.

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Originally Posted by Melf

This whole argument reeks of self-entitlement. "I can't afford it, so I have a right to take it." I'd like a Porche but can't afford one. Does that give me the right to steal one? No? But I wouldn't have been able to drive one otherwise!

Protip: If your hobby is too expensive for you, get another hobby. No one is forcing you to play video games, and it's not something you need to survive. Comparing it to people stealing food is a flawed comparison because video games are entertainment, not a basic necessity that you'll die without.



It sounds like you're only viewing this from the perspective of the consumer though. If it becomes too much of a burden, buy something else. Sales will drop, and companies will make adjustments to bring customers back. I don't understand why buying something for leisure would ever be considered a burden in the first place. No one is entitled to just take something that belongs to someone else, especially when said item is protected under the law. Ethics might not enter the equation for consumers, who can just go and download a torrent to get what they want, but it sure as hell matters to the publisher as soon as it affects its bottom line.

The fact is, WM isn't obligated to do jack. They sell the game; you buy it. You missed out? Buy it on the second hand market. "They don't make it anymore" does not equate to being freeware. This whole attitude of self-entitlement is what has the gaming industry in the state it's in, and it's why I grow less and less enthusiastic about modern games each day.

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That's because I am looking at it as a consumer, as a point. I understand that consumers don't give a fuck either way, and will burn money on laziness. Self entitlement is what drives modern society and ethics behind it have very little to do with the bottom line on their end. Do I agree with it? Not really. I haven't modded any of my current consoles, I purchase digital games, I don't 'steal' anything. I'm one of the rare people 'doing the right thing', but I see the trend. You can't deny it.


Most people today hold no value in anything, and want it as cheap,easy and as fast as possible. If it's easy to buy a game in an embedded marketplace like PSN/XBLA/Steam from the lazy-as-fuck comfort of a couch, they'll buy it with plastic and go on their way. Collectors are different, they want the packaging, but that's more cumbersome to attain than it is to download and pirate. In the big picture, the baby boomers created a generation that became desensitized, and it inherited their entitlement issues.

And then there was a double post.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

You are a very funny man Clessy.

People need to eat in order to survive. So I guess going by your logic, pirating entertainment media is required in order to sustain life too? Well maybe for some people that's true, but science says otherwise.

:lol:

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They're people dying without video games everyday. So next time you make a joke I want you to think about that sicko!

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Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster

Digital distribution is the future or everything, embrace it or fuck off. Either way, find something else to complain about... preferably something less futile.

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This is the only time I think we'll ever agree on something.

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Originally Posted by Melf

This whole argument reeks of self-entitlement. "I can't afford it, so I have a right to take it." I'd like a Porche but can't afford one. Does that give me the right to steal one? No? But I wouldn't have been able to drive one otherwise!

Protip: If your hobby is too expensive for you, get another hobby. No one is forcing you to play video games, and it's not something you need to survive. Comparing it to people stealing food is a flawed comparison because video games are entertainment, not a basic necessity that you'll die without.

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Another get fucking real moment for you. If people could steal porsches and get away with it just like they can download games and movies they would. No one actually cares man. As kunckles said games are for amusement. The average person could care less if the developer goes out of busines from so much piracy or any of the morals behind it. People arent entitled to it but they also don't give a damn. Also on the get real level most piracy if from kids without jobs do you honestly think kids care if they pay or not for their entertainment?

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Originally Posted by Clessy

Another get fucking real moment for you. If people could steal porsches and get away with it just like they can download games and movies they would. No one actually cares man. As kunckles said games are for amusement. The average person could care less if the developer goes out of busines from so much piracy or any of the morals behind it. People arent entitled to it but they also don't give a damn.

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So when publishers institute bullshit DRM tactics and raise prices, whose fault is it? The average person who doesn't give a damn about the company going out of business. Self-entitled douches like that ruin things for the rest of us.

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Also on the get real level most piracy if from kids without jobs do you honestly think kids care if they pay or not for their entertainment?

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This is what I mean by self-entitlement, and it's the reason I care less and less about modern gaming.

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Originally Posted by Melf

So when publishers institute bullshit DRM tactics and raise prices, whose fault is it? The average person who doesn't give a damn about the company going out of business. Self-entitled douches like that ruin things for the rest of us.



This is what I mean by self-entitlement, and it's the reason I care less and less about modern gaming.

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The point is the people who are gonna buy games buy games and the people who werent don't.

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Originally Posted by Clessy

Oh the blu ray comment thats totally retarded. Those movies are still in print. Hence the 1 year of not being in print. But you failed to comprehend that.mine.

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So my comment was retarded because all blu-ray movies are still in print? Find me a new copy of the first Terminator movie in blu-ray. According to your logic it's perfectly fine for me to pirate it.

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Originally Posted by synapse

So my comment was retarded because all blu-ray movies are still in print? Find me a new copy of the first Terminator movie in blu-ray. According to your logic it's perfectly fine for me to pirate it.

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I will glady walk into any best buy tomorrow and pick up a copy or take you a picture of a copy of terminator on blu ray. However you should give me $25 just for being wrong and wasting my time.

http://www.amazon.com/Terminator-Blu...4407757&sr=8-1 < Listing of only New copies of terminator.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/The+Term...0ray&lp=5&cp=1 < new

http://www.walmart.com/ip/4987520 < new

I'm sure there are probably things that are out of print but normally within a few months they're working on another edition to put on shelves. Its few and far between that you cant walk into a store or get online and get a copy of a movie you want.

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Originally Posted by Clessy

However you should give me $25 just for being wrong and wasting my time.

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Biff Tannen, is that you...?

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Originally Posted by Guntz

Biff Tannen, is that you...?

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Could be! hell, it might even be Biff from "River City Ransom" for all we know.:D

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Originally Posted by Guntz

No matter the circumstance, piracy is unethical. It doesn't matter if a game is 1 year old or 30 years old. If you can't buy a copy from the developer/publisher who owns the rights to the game, well that's their problem. That doesn't somehow magically give you the legal right to pirate it (unless copyright law suddenly changes). There's nothing stopping you from pirating the game, but don't expect people to agree with your ridiculous claim that it's somehow justified.

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I get what you're saying. I understand why people abide by that sort of viewpoint. For me, though, if I'm only going to live once, I'm not going to deprive myself of something I'm interested in just because there are arbitrary laws that say I can't see it unless x conditions are met.

In the case of digital piracy, literally nobody is going to stop you from "enjoying life", just don't expect everyone else to share the same opinion as you. Most of us realize it's technically illegal, even though you're unlikely to ever get caught. That's why most of us will find it weird when someone tries to rationalize piracy as not being illegal.

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Originally Posted by Melf

So when publishers institute bullshit DRM tactics and raise prices, whose fault is it? The average person who doesn't give a damn about the company going out of business. Self-entitled douches like that ruin things for the rest of us.

This is what I mean by self-entitlement, and it's the reason I care less and less about modern gaming.

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Bullshit DRM and raised prices are just attempting to uphold a business model that won't survive in modern society anyway. They need to move to digital distribution and increase value by cutting price, or giving other incentives toward consumers. It needs to be easier than pirating without being invasive enough to push away legit customers as long as those intended customers are the entitled assholes which make up modern society. If not, scale back and sell DRM riddled shit to die-hard collectors and don't expect to be a multi-billion dollar industry.

It's the same as music, movies or books. Everybody feels entitled to everything these days and nobody has respect or empathy towards content creators. It's the way of the world, why should consumers be burdened either way aside from the easiest form consumption when it's all about distraction?

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Originally Posted by Guntz

In the case of digital piracy, literally nobody is going to stop you from "enjoying life", just don't expect everyone else to share the same opinion as you. Most of us realize it's technically illegal, even though you're unlikely to ever get caught. That's why most of us will find it weird when someone tries to rationalize piracy as not being illegal.

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Nobody rationalizes it as being legal/illegal. People rationalize it because it's more convenient than traditional physical purchasing, and when they pay money to acquire it legally they are met with bullshit DRM. Who's to blame for DRM, it's a chicken and the egg scenario if you are to believe developers, whereas it's really a problem of convenience when the mass market target is unethical and lazy enough to not care about artifact ownership. Digital distribution and price/cost adjustments need to happen, or the whole market growth will go tits up in the future.

When they make gaming disposable and cheap through low cost digital distribution and allow people to back up content, nobody should care.
I know buying a Wii Virtual Console games is easy enough to justify buying when I see it, rather than need to worry about emulation platforms. That's the state of modern gaming, digital and easier than piracy without being a dick to legit customers. Invasive DRM has no excuse.

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Originally Posted by Clessy

I will glady walk into any best buy tomorrow and pick up a copy or take you a picture of a copy of terminator on blu ray. However you should give me $25 just for being wrong and wasting my time.

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Oh I'm sorry. I forgot to say "region 2" or "spanish" copies. I don't always remember the fact that some americans tend to forget about the rest of the world being there too ;)

The us version is region free last I heard and it has a Spanish audio track or subtitles. Is that not good enough?

Also if you dont see a copy of it right now don't fret chances are a new version will hit the shelves. Game companies and Movie companies are pretty good a re releasing their thing enough so people will always have access to them.


Only company's with no for-site dont come up with plans to provide access to their game within 2 years of its release.

If I can't buy it for whatever reason, I will pirate it. Simple as.
If I could pirate a Lamborghini, I would.

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Originally Posted by Olls

If I can't buy it for whatever reason, I will pirate it. Simple as.
If I could pirate a Lamborghini, I would.

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While you're pirating a lamborghini you should pirate me a 911 gt2 rs :P Btw I couldnt agree with your statement anymore.

I say 5 years from now, release the rom. or at least a PC version to sell. We all want to experience what great reviews this game is getting. If you really want your art to reach the masses, its the only way to do it

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Originally Posted by Olls

If I can't buy it for whatever reason, I will pirate it. Simple as.
If I could pirate a Lamborghini, I would.

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YOU CAN pirate a lamborghini

http://www.automoblog.net/2008/03/13/fake-ferrari-feud/

or just google "lamborghini kit car" and see how many "pirated" or fake lambos there are out there across the world. Any lambo you see get crushed in a movie is usually one of these "kit cars"

EA owns all the Porsches in the world now, so pirate away!

Piracy helped kill the Dreamcast, piracy in that case is bad.

I buy DVD versions of movies I like and torrent the Blu Ray rips. I do this because Sony forced Blu Ray to be the only HD disk format out there and I don't like them at all.

I dislike the high prices for Virtual Console roms and some WiiWare games, so I'd happily admit to pirating them. I'm legit otherwise.

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Originally Posted by The Coop

And yet it's the pirates and hackers that allow the paying customers to enjoy their games without that crippling DRM and copy protection when it gets in the way of the game being able to be installed (or even run). This comes thanks to no DVD/CD fixed executables, user made patches to get around things like Steam (I wouldn't have been able to play my retail copy of Darksiders otherwise), and things like that. Sure, it helps people get something for free through illegal means, but it also helps those of us who pay out the cash and wind up getting screwed.

It's the circle of life, Simba ;)

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This is reverse logic. The thought that pirates serve a function by hacking DRM, etc. makes no sense. The DRM exists *because* of pirates. So if people didn't pirate intellectual property, there would be no need for this type of security. So my perspective is that pirates suck because they push companies into crippling their IP with security measures.

I don't pirate movies, music, or games. There are plenty of ways to get content and I don't bother even to investigate them. I have no problem paying for the things I use, listen to, watch, etc.

I do play ROMs of Genesis games. I own a decent collection, but not enough to cover all the ROMs. I have bought the Genesis collection a number of times, and have bought tons of the arcade collections before, but the ROMs just offer convenience of being able to play games that are no longer for sale retail, or that go for ridiculous prices used. When they become available in a form I can buy, I do; otherwise, ROMs for classic gaming is okay by me...

Yes it's fine and well to say you're gonna pirate something and be happy, but please don't be a Clessy or Knuckle Dragger and try to justify it. You'll just make yourself look like an idiot.

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Originally Posted by sheath

Piracy helped kill the Dreamcast, piracy in that case is bad.

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Piracy was also cited as one of the major reasons SNK dropped software support for the NEO-GEO MVS, after 14 some years of going at it... Now before somebody cries BS, it's funny to note how flooded the MVS market is with bootleg carts. It's unreal! I don't think I've ever seen a game platform so riddled with fake copies... Except for the GBA/DS. Those are the kings of piracy.