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Game Sack mentioned the Croc/Yoshi thing in one of their episodes, which was the first I'd heard of it.
I recently played through Croc on the PlayStation. Sketchy controls (especially for turning around while standing in place) and a couple really questionable level design decisions, but otherwise it was a reasonably fun 3D platformer. And for once it didn't require a walkthrough to find all the secrets: just logic, persistence, and common sense.
It's true, there's a great article about it on eurogamer.
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"The end came when we pitched to do a 3D platform game, the likes of which had never been done before. We mocked up a prototype using Yoshi. It was essentially the world's first 3D platform game and was obviously a big risk - Nintendo had never let an outside company use their characters before, and weren't about to, either. This is the moment the deal fell apart. We later made that game into Croc: Legend of the Gobbos for the PlayStation, Saturn and PC, which became our biggest ever game in terms of sales and also in royalties, since we owned the IP."
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The similarity between Croc and Super Mario 64 isn't lost on San, who feels that the early prototype had some influence on the seminal N64 title. "Miyamoto-san went on to make Mario 64, which had the look and feel of our Yoshi game - but with the Mario character, of course - and beat Croc to market by around a year," San says. "Miyamoto-san came up to me at a show afterwards and apologised for not doing the Yoshi game with us and thanked us for the idea to do a 3D platform game. He also said that we would make enough royalties from our existing deal to make up for it. That felt hollow to me, as I'm of the opinion that Nintendo ended our agreement without fully realising it. They canned Star Fox 2 even though it was finished and used much of our code in Star Fox 64 without paying us a penny.
Yeah, I've read that, and as I've probably said before (not sure about here though), that was another lost opportunity for Nintendo. The N64 had an opening for a first-party 3d plaformer in late '97 -- there wasn't one. NoA tried to fill the gap by publishing Bomberman 64 in the US, and that's a good game, but Croc's better for sure. I've always really liked Croc, ever since I first played the PC version in the '90s, and it'd have been fantastic as an N64 game! And as I said, Nintendo had an opening when Croc released. Mario 64 was late '96, then Banjo late '98; they didn't have a 3d platformer in between those two. Croc, either as Croc or as a Yoshi game (though two Yoshi games at once wouldn't work, one would need to change -- Yoshi's Story released in Japan in late '97, and the West in early '98) would have been better. Nintendo used Diddy Kong Racing as their big first-party game that holiday season, but that's not a platformer...
Anyway, from Argonaut, Croc, Croc 2, I-Ninja, and Malice are all great 3d platformers. It's really too bad that Argonaut shut down.
Why would Argonaut do a deal with Nintendo after Nintendo had screwed Argonaut over so badly over the very game in question?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Croc also took full advantage of the CD. Things would have to be cut for a cartridge release. The music for example. I really can't see a single thing the N64 might've added to Croc.
True true true. I haven't played I-Ninja or Malice. Are they good?Quote:
Anyway, from Argonaut, Croc, Croc 2, I-Ninja, and Malice are all great 3d platformers. It's really too bad that Argonaut shut down.
Croc 1 had the best control scheme I've ever played. It let you control Croc irrelevant of where the camera was pointed. To this day I haven't played a better control scheme for platforming. It was in Croc 2 as well, but only in the PC version. The PSX version adopted the standard annoying scheme.
Remember Panic at Platform Pete's? That would've been impossible with a regular control scheme.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...48/PAPPL10.png
Ummm... what are you talking about?What "very game in question"? If you mean Croc, obviosuly I think that Nintendo would have been best off accepting Argonaut's offer in the beginning, and developing Croc as a Yoshi game for the N64. If it finished development about when Croc did, in late '97, it'd have been perfectly timed, as I said, to fill in a gap at a time when Nintendo had no first or second-party 3d platformer to release. And it's a great game, too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades
Or do you mean Star Fox 2? In hindsight, Nintendo should have released the game. They canned it because of the N64, but then the N64 was delayed and wasn't ready for more than a year after the game would have released in mid '95, so the cancellation was kind of pointless... it's not the greatest game, but it should have released. Would have been fun.
Larger areas is one. Croc's level sections are generally quite small. I'm sure on the N64 they could have been a bit bigger. Also, the N64 has the best controller that gen for 3d platformers as well. And the graphics would have been better than on PS1 or Saturn too, of course.Quote:
Croc also took full advantage of the CD. Things would have to be cut for a cartridge release. The music for example. I really can't see a single thing the N64 might've added to Croc.
As for "full advantage" of CDs... how? Just the CD audio? Eh, N64 cartridge music could be pretty good too. I'm sure it'd have been fine; even if obviously N64 music isn't CD quality, it's good enough.
I think so, at least. Not all of Argonaut's platformey games are great -- Catwoman got terrible reviews (that's a 3d action-adventure game with some platforming), and Aladdin in Nasira's Revenge and The Emperor's New Groove are fairly average -- but those four I mentioned are quite good. Malice is kind of short, but it's good fun. Get it for Xbox, not PS2; it was originally designed for Xbox, and is a lot better on that system. Nice graphics too. As for I-Ninja, it's a nice-looking and fun game. You're this cute-ish little ninja guy. The platforming is great, good level designs, nice variety, and more. It's on Gamecube too, in addition to PS2 and Xbox, unlike their other 3d platformers, none of which were on Nintendo systems... so yeah, it's good. I-Ninja got good reviews for a reason.Quote:
True true true. I haven't played I-Ninja or Malice. Are they good?
Croc's controls take a while to get used to, but yeah, they're pretty good. The only problem I have is that it's a bit too hard to judge jumping distances sometimes -- it's far too easy to fall in pits because you misjudged a jump, Croc doesn't have quite as clear a landing point when you jump when compared to, say, Mario in Mario 64. You get used to it with time, though. Even though in most ways Croc 2 is probably the "better" game, I've always liked the original more anyway...Quote:
Croc 1 had the best control scheme I've ever played. It let you control Croc irrelevant of where the camera was pointed. To this day I haven't played a better control scheme for platforming. It was in Croc 2 as well, but only in the PC version. The PSX version adopted the standard annoying scheme.
Remember Panic at Platform Pete's? That would've been impossible with a regular control scheme.
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...48/PAPPL10.png
Croc was before my time. Always overlooked Gex.
I really loved Croc, but never properly beat it for some reason. I should get back to that one day. I can totally see it working as a Yoshi game like proposed, but I am glad it became it's own thing really.
Croc 2 on the other hand was one of the most disappointing games I can remember. I do not think I ever even beat the first boss in it. What was the deal with the GummiSavers advertising in-game, anyways?
Gex 1 was an interesting game, but I kind of hated it's mechanics. 2 and 3 were just generic, annoying platformers, but I do not think they are all that terrible. Gex 3 in particular had some interesting level progression if I am remembering it correctly.
I had a guide book of Gex 3 that had lame crap like instant tattoos of the real girl in that game. Can you imagine little kids with a sexualized woman in a catsuit with her tits out on their arm?
Croc is ok, certanly the best 3d platformer on the Saturn, where its only competition would be Ninpen Manmaru. Some of the best graphics on Saturn too. I think it kinda feels like a cutesy Tomb Raider more than say a Super Mario 64, due to the tank-like controls. And despite being released way after Mario 64, its way behind it, not even close.
I didnt play much either game BITD, since i dont like 3d platformers that much, but recently tried both side by side, and it only reassured me what a genius game Mario 64 was.
Would be awesome if there was a proto or any media of the Yoshi game Argonaut was working on. Any info on the system they used for the demo for Nintendo, PC perhaps?
I love the first Gex, The 3d ones, not so much. Their 3d mechanics and level design are more advanced than Croc, but i feel in this cases, simpler was better. All good games though.
http://16bap.theclassicgamer.net/cro...of-the-gobbos/
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At the time of writing, 2 December 2015, this is the only complete lossless soundtrack of Croc: Legend of the Gobbos on the web which has been digitally ripped from the Playstation disc instead of recorded through line-in or ripped from the CD Audio tracks of the PC or Saturn version.
Actually, I’m not even sure if there are other lossless soundtracks of this game available on the net, I could only find MP3s and Youtube videos and even most of these are incomplete, as the complete soundtrack has 67 tracks total, most only have 64 or fewer.
Sadly, an Official Soundtrack for this game was never released (but Croc 2 has one!) so this is the closest we’ll ever get to a proper OST.
Hey, thanks a lot for posting. Chances are it's not going to be up long because Justin Scharvona really doesn't like his music being available for some reason.
....and it's down.
Anyone have the first file?
I have the PSX disc on my shelf right next to me. What do you need?
Nah, I was talking about the first file for the soundtrack in the link. In any case it's back up if you're interested.