How do you figure that? The smallest sprite object is 8x8, which would make 40 fit into 320 wide, which is twice the 20 sprite per scanline limit in that mode. The sprite per scanline limit in 256 mode is 16, so that is another way the 320 mode helps. Also, 320x224=71680 pixels, divide that by 64 pixels in an 8x8 sprite and you get 1120, the genesis would never fill the screen with 8x8 sprites before hitting its 80 sprite limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
There's also the issue of flicker/tearing . . . having more sprite allows for situations where you'd be willing to suffer some tearing/flicker to allow more simultaneous objects to be manipulated on-screen. (plus there's the issue of off-screen sprites) This would apply to cases of small sprites hittng the 20 per line limit or large sprites hitting the 320 pixel limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
However, to address the 8x8 sprite issue, also you's hit the per line limit at 20 with only 160 pixels used, though even then you'd run out of sprites before allowing 224 pixels tall. With 8x32 you could fill the vertical screen and hit the horizontal sprite limit too.
I forget whether sprite bandwidth get eaten up with transparent tiles or not too, but that could be an interesting factor. (sprites are all mapped out of 8x8 cells, but if the VDP allows specific cell to be completely empty, it could avoid wasting bandwidth on partially filled sprites -otherwise, there's more cases you'd want to composite odd-shaped objects from smaller sprites to optimize for pixel bandwidth)
The MD tilemap is fixed at 64x64 iirc, though active obvously display shows far less than that. (it makes scrolling and tile updates more flexible though, with all that extra tile space)Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Not sure about consoles, but several home computers have control over overscan boarder/blanking color. I'm pretty sure the TMS9918 (and derivative) do that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
MD tilemap is configurable from 32 x 32, 64 x 32, 32 x 64, 64 x 64, 128 x 32 and 32x 128.
Why did Stef mention he had to use 64x64 in his demo?Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
Does it have anything to do with using column scroll?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stef
With the polygon layer needing no scrolling at all, I don't see why 32x32 wouldn't be used to save VRAM space. Or is it just that the tool set Stef is using has 64x64 set up as the default?
Just because the map is 64x64 doesn't mean you HAVE to use ALL of it... if you never scroll the screen, you can use just the 40x28 part needed for a 320x224 display and use the rest for tiles or other things. The only parts of a tile map that needs valid values are the entries that will be displayed, which also depends on the scrolling used. If you only scrolled horizontally by one column before reseting, you'd only need to worry about the 41x28 entries. Add one row vertically and you'd only worry about 41x29 entries. I use 128x32 in a number of my demos, where the first 80 columns are used for double-buffering layer A, and the next 40 columns are used for an unscrolling layer B, with the last 8 columns being unused. It's all up to the programmer to make effective use of both the tile maps and the unused vram.
It may also be an issue with the way Stef's MD tool set is currently set up. That, and I know he's keeping some things simple for now and optimize later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly Willy
Edit: Stef elaborated more here:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post564364
So it seems that it' not anything specific to the tools he uses.
That's true, typical tv would show 286 pixels. And yes with normal screen calibration ( for example some sony trinitron with service mode ), we can have 304.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
This represents approximatively 2/3 of neo geo library. Between 90 and 100 games are on 304*224.
And approximatively 50 games are on 320*224.
Perhaps with some tv models ( some sony trinitron ), we can see neo geo full screen on 320*224.
That's why Sony PVM is famous, thanks to gorgeous quality image and also we can see the neo geo full screen on 320*224.
Neo geo is an arcade machine, so when we play on neo geo mvs with an arcade cabinet, it is easy to have the 320*224.
Neo geo always displays 320*224.
For example, Metal Slug is on 320*224 with 2 black columns of 8 pixels.
http://edgeemu.net/screenshots/mame/...tles/mslug.png
So real surface of this game is on 304*224. ( we remove this two black colums of pixels )
That's why Metal Slug is on 304*224.
Garou MOTW is on 320*224.
On arcade cabinet, many people makes the mistake of incorrectly adjusting their arcade screen.
For example, garou intro screen have black columns, so some people adjust their arcade screen because of that.
It's an error , because on 320*224, yes it will have black columns on this screen :
http://edgeemu.net/screenshots/mame/...tles/garou.png
But, if we remain on 320*224, we will see that this blacks columns will disappear when we play the game.
Garou MOTW on 320*224 :
http://edgeemu.net/screenshots/mame/...naps/garou.png
Someone already necro'd this thread, and since it has some glaring issues.. I'll post.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
The PCE, if you want to define the "resolution" in relation to the same horizontal window size as the Genesis, snes, nes, and master system is.. 256, 342, 512. The mid res, directly comparable to the other systems, is 342. Games tend to "clip" the display be adding "overscan", bring the visible window to 336 or 320. But doesn't "affect" the resolution; it's always 342 in relation to the other systems, when in mid res mode.
The only thing that's divisible by 8, in clipping or expanding the screen, is the horizontal resolution. If you have a 256 resolution in low res mode (pixels across the screen) and you setup the display only to show 240 pixels across, then you'll have a little more border on either side of the screen. The pixel size won't change, it'll remain in low res mode, but the amount shown on screen will be whatever you define it to be.
The vertical resolution is different. It's 242 showable lines, but the average is between 240 to 224. It's also ~not~ limited by a multiple of 8 like stated by sheath. It also can be "clipped" with borders on top and bottom, in single horizontal line steps; not 8. You could do a 200 line display, and setup exactly how up border on the top and bottom - even offsetting the screen. A lot of PCE games use the 240 mode. The PCE isn't like the Genesis, SNES, NES, and Master System in that you have to update during vblank. So vblank isn't as important to the PCE as it is to those other systems. The other systems tend to favor more "vblank" lines than displayable "lines", so they could do more vram updating during vblank. On PCE, this isn't really a concern.
Genesis hi res mode (320) is pretty nice. In my opinion, the most important aspect of it is the greater sprite optimization because of the scaling of the sprite pixel limit with the increased res. Allows more smaller sprites on a line with flickering, compared to the lower res mode of the Genesis (256). As far as an advantage, I honestly rather have more colors and transparency effects of the snes. The 320 res mode is nice, but doesn't make up for the lacking in color. On CRT tvs back in the day, you couldn't even see the additional resolution of the Genesis high res mode over RF or Composite because of the terrible video output of the system (no phase shifting) - it just became blurrier. On emulators though, or RGB, at least you can see it.
Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
The Genesis had poor-for-the-time RF and composite. I remember thinking I was seeing all kinds of shading that I found out years later wasn't actually there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
You also have to keep in mind that people were playing on TVs from the 70's and early 80's and often on screens as small as 13" (and even in b&w).
How about backing that statement up with facts? Yeah?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
Here's why I say that it ~is~ correct:
The rf and composite video output of the Genesis does not have a color burst phase alternation system. That means the TV decoder can't determine the interference between Y to chroma, and chroma to Y signal ( chroma is the color for the pixel, Y is the actual pixel but B&W). The SNES and PCE do have phase shifts (though the PCE can turn it on and off), and thus higher res is clearer (at least on the PCE).
If you don't understand how composite video works, and the inherent problem when the Y frequency (the pixel resolution) comes close to multiples of the color carrier signal, then the cross talk that doesn't alternate - is really difficult to near impossible to pull accurate pixel data out of the signal (Y). You can see this directly see this in Genesis video output; single white pixels are shown as dirty great with color fringing. And the fact that dithering on the Genesis is near solid - a visual confirmation that resolution is actually decreased as it's represented. I'm sorry, but you don't get both: blended dither and increased resolution.
Like I said, RGB out or svideo modded system - then what I said doesn't apply (obviously).
I recall reading a gaming mag back in the day mentioning more detailed sprites in the Genesis version of Mortal Kombat 2, and mentioned Baraka's teeth as an example. Looked for the scans online quickly for two GamePro issues and didn't spot it. Must of been EGM. I'll see if I can find the scans later. If not, I'm not digging through my boxed mags.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
And I too personally noticed a difference in resolution between the SNES and Genesis back in the day using only composite for both.
Even the best stuff nowadays wouldn't help because NTSC is too shit (too low color resolution), only the colors with a lot of contrast are distinguishable making it pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
The extra space was honestly welcome though even if it wasn't immediately noticeable, I mean it was the time where everything was still tile aligned usually and so it meant the ability to cram in some more stuff on screen. And the kind of arcades they intended to port were 320px wide, it'd be stupid to use anything else. And let's be honest: 160/320/640px wide was becoming the norm just about everywhere that wasn't a console, so why wouldn't you want to do the same?
Funny you mention MKII Thief, that one always looked obvious to me (the improved resolution vs SNES version) thru RF. The improved detail on the fighters was quite apparent, and one of the ports only strengths.
Composite from RGB looks great on modern crts. Both from RGB to s-video mods and XMD-3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik
The popular arcade hardware at the time wasn't 320 pixels wide. CPS is 384 and Konami, Namco and Taito's 16-bit era games were 288. Mortal Kombat games are supposed to have a high resolution for the time. Sega's own Model 1 hardware ran at something close to 500 x 400.