Neo Geo wasn't a popular Arcade?
Neo Geo wasn't a popular Arcade?
Game mags didn't do captures/pics of composite video; they used RGB from the Genesis. And yes, the sprites could be more detailed, but if you filter that detail through a type of video signal generation that doesn't support it - then you don't see those additional details. If you have single pixel teeth on the Genesis in high res mode, represented as ascii here: #.#.#.#. With white "." and black being "#", then what you'll see onscreen looks more like this @@@@. As in, you won't see the gap. And single contrasted pixels get blurred across two pixels; ##.## -> #~~##. If you don't believe me, get yourself capture card. Or better yet, load a game up on the real system with original video output on a CRT and compare it to a raw pixel emulated image of the same game (closest thing to RGB output).Quote:
Originally Posted by Thief
PAR is nice (pixel aspect ratio), even if there's detailed lost with 320 vs 256. The amount of pattern data to the width is nice too, for 320 mode, even if you can't see the individual smaller details. And this you can notice, but it's more akin to using 6x8 tiles than 8x8 tiles, all things being equal.. and not resolution per se (just resolution in the sense of number of blocks/cells per row in the same width).
Unless you're interpreting "shades" as details, then you're imagining seeing additional detail.
Here's a test: Which image is higher res?
http://www.pcedev.net/pics/capture/gameres_1a.png
http://www.pcedev.net/pics/capture/gameres_2a.png
nearly all sega sprite-based arcade systems (if not all at the time of megadrive design) were 320Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
Which is precisely what I meant with arcades they intended to port. Remember Sega was looking to port all their arcade games to console.
And yeah those are '80s systems, the arcade systems that were starting to appear in the '90s were all moving to high resolutions aside from budget hardware.
The both Resolutions are very common on arcades on 80's and 90's era
some system like the majority of data east boards can operate on both or more resolutions depending the type of game,
also the best looking games on 90's uses 320x240 or higher horizontal pixel clocks to increace the resolution
but in the the end uses 320x240 aspect ratio that looks mouch more closes to MD experience than the low res used on snes and pce
is a fact.
The Genesis uses the same "low res" and a lot of its game did. The PC Engine can do any resolution in increments of 8(?) pixels between 256 to 512 pixels wide.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyron
Obviously Sega chose that particular resolution because they had arcade games using it, but the biggest arcade games and publishers used different resolutions. Daimakaimura and Strider were more important to the Genesis than Altered Beast and Golden Axe, let alone SFII, Mortal Kombat, TMNT, etc. I find it hard to believe that CPS1 and CPS2 alone aren't considered part of "the best looking games" of the 90's.
I was talking about most of the big and/or important arcade ports that the Genesis and SNES actually received. Aside from Sega and Neo Geo ports, pretty much everything else wasn't 320 pixels wide in the arcade originals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sik
Yes, MD uses both and ofc sega's delivers the best performance on 320x240 resolution to port their own games.. and the others big titles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
About the impact at this era is hard to tell
take your example... Strider in the 90's for the majority of the people its a md exclusive game
strider never as popular on the arcades, is very hard do find a cabinet..
we can talk the same for much titles on MD library at the time
for the gamers passes as md exclusive game than a popular arcade port..
Daimakamura i agree that's is huge.. and helped alot sell the system on EUA, but grafics wise Altered beast show much better the system power house,
another thing.. Golden Axe... is huge too and for me have the same importance of daimakamura.
About CPS1 and 2 are strongs systems, but MVS is far more impressive any day,
Namco, Data East, Konami, Sega and others have far more impressive hardware in the same time,
the strong point of the capcom never is the grafics but the games itself that is very well done.
I think that 320 wide is a great resolution and the way it scales for sprite bandwidth is priceless, unless the trade off was the cost of better color ability.
My point was just that most important arcade games that got ports or people wanted weren't 320 wide as was claimed. Even Neo Geo ports were uncommon and most were fighters which were all a reaction to the game that matter: SFII.
While playing arcade bitd, I always wondered why graphic quality peaked with Capcom games. The resolution and level of shading in CPS1 games really came through and Neo Geo games relied on artwork and animation through huge roms, but by the time the hardware started really doing that the 32-bit generation was already here.
Like I said, those important Konami games were 288 and only hardcore gamers cared about Namco or Data East games as much as Konami, Capcom and Sega. What are the 16-bit console era arcade games by these other companies that Capcom's didn't look impressive compared to?
Even the argument that Sega wanted to do pixel for pixel ports of their own games was proven false early on. Instead of giving us ports of Fantasy Zone, Shinobi, Alex Kidd and the Lost Stars, E-Swat, etc, they opted for 8-bit console style "versions" of games. When it came to super scalers, 320' wide only hurt the ports, who assets were mostly frames of animation. With games like Monster Lair, they straight up re-drew everything, so almost nothing was ported.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Black_Tiger again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Black_Tiger again.Quote:
Neo Geo games relied on artwork and animation through huge roms
The NeoGeo vs CPS argument is a non-starter IMO.
As bowled over was I by the graphics of SF2, Samurai Shodown took it to another level. Later NeoGeo games such as Garou: MotW and Last Blade were CPS-3 quality, never mind CPS-1/2.
Having said this I can understand why some might prefer the artwork of Capcom games over SNK, and likewise the other way around, but this is down to personal taste, not technical hardware.
I have to disagree... everyone here knows why SF2 was ported in low res for every console before of snes, so i will pass this topicQuote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
and the others neo geo ports did by takara have the seal of low quality, only FF2 and SS on MD was good, and FFS on snes are playable.. all the rest is very lame..
About the arcade ports that's important i have to disagree again
they all are great games from who really enjoy arcades and played it at the time,
ofc some of them are bether than the others but as arcade fan thats play it almost every day, have these games on my home is very cool and important to me
alot of them are underrated from the people who onlys plays the poor ports in the place on the originals on arcade cabinet,
but i can uunderstand the differences by limitations and enjoy the game
neo geo mvs is one of them..
all 16 bits ports of their games don't deliver the same gameplay or impact of the arcade, and in general all ports are very inferior than the original
SFII in this aspect is much betther than the others games in this era..
But to helps in this discution why not put all games ports of capcom / neo geo on 256px and 320px ?
256 Ports
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...lying-kick.pnghttp://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...nshot-chun.gifhttp://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...deathmatch.png
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...-in-a-cafe.gifhttp://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...-monks-are.gif
320 Ports
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...t-starting.gifhttp://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...-near-pool.pnghttp://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...d-shooting.png
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...ki-lucifer.gifhttp://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...s-perishes.pnghttp://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...untainside.png
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...re-baddies.gifhttp://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...-different.gifhttp://www.hardcoregaming101.net/kin...re-Genesis.gif
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/kin...re-Genesis.gifhttp://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...-francisco.pnghttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/-8VLgkM1xpo...0/ssmart06.png
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...her-change.gifhttp://www.mobygames.com/images/shot...german-for.png
As you can see most of 256px arcade ports to mega drive are not in the reality a arcade port but its just a express and poor snes port..
*If i miss one sorry
Arcade experience is very hard to compare, for you experience it can be true.. but i can't can figure how much games on arcades you really stop and are dedicated to play and how much games you have access to play in your city.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
I play arcades always, almost every day and still enjoy do it today and i played ALOT of games, i hunt new machines with my friends wham i'm a kid and i can say to you...
cps games are the common here.. like a bar machine.. nothing special on it, for me capcom its always about gameplay and not tech or top grafics.
sega arcade with cool cockpits with hardware rotation and top noch sound it is a new generation.. namco, konami did amazing things too
SNK games is far more impressive tham anything capcom did.. take samurai shadow 2 and compare with any game on cps1 system..
have two worlds of diferences here..
We are hardcore games and we care about it :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
And about your question.. Capcom games dosen't look impresve over anyone.. for me looking whise is very closes each others..
lets take a examples?
92 Arcades
Capcom
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/fin...ons-arcade.png
Data East
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/dar...arkseal2-5.png
Namco
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/luc...uckywild43.png
SEGA
http://www.dcshooters.co.uk/sega/meg...ga2arcade2.png
Irem
http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/ire...overcops-8.png
But if take 94/95 game of the companys they deliver a very inovative features and technologies like 3D games or 32bits systems..
capcom stills delivers the same 2D fighters or beat em ups.. nothing impressive..
but lik i said before.. cool games to play
Its true.. but for good side.. shadow dance or e-swat like you said is much bether game on md..Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
they dont port everything but tried alot.. and all them runs on 320 res...
about super scale grafics game never will be the same but most of them delivers a good experience in home
Edit: fixing the images
What's the resolution of those CPS-1 to PS1/Saturn ports? I think it was 320x224 and they looked pretty much the same as the real thing in that aspect.
And as much as I like Capcom, there were many arcades at the time that looked just as good, like crazyteknohed said before it's just preference.
I think that wasn't Black_Tiger's point though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyron
Late 80s Capcom arcade releases were graphically impressive and frankly unmatched for the time IMO for the most part; and that's around the time the MD was released.
That was the period BT was talking about a few posts ago.
Also, 1991's SFII set the graphical standards that pretty all 1 on 1 fighting games would follow.
Later on other companies released games which also looked good, but many times their graphical quality relies on an atrocious amount of ROM usage; this is subjective but it's perfectly reasonable to question the animation quality of games which require much more ROM space in order to look as good as some older, less space-hungry games.
To be very honest, many Neo Geo games don't have stellar animation if you analyze them past their number of frames. And I think that's one of the aspects Black_Tiger was talking about.
352x224 on the Saturn and 384x240 on the PS1, for the most part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vludi
Really? I thought they were rendered at lower resolution, interesting.
I don't think Capcom's late 80s titles looked much better than Gradius II/III, R-Type II, Ninja Warriors, Ordyne, Darius II, E-Swat, Valkyrie no Densetsu, Image Fight, TMNT etc. In early 90s the situation became even more equal with new arcade boards if Capcom ever had an advantage with the CPS-1.
Just to give some perspective here, about how home console resolutions compare to arcades:
Neo Geo 320 mode (same res as 304, just extends into overscan).. is 320 pixels across the entire active display line. CPS-1 is 384 pixels across the entire active display line. Home consoles clip their graphics for overscan because not only would it not be seen, but these systems are processing things in preparation for that current line during this time.
Since we're talking high res in home consoles, here's the MD and PCE:
MD with max overscan in high res mode is ~350 pixels on the active display line.
PCE with max overscan in mid res mode is ~374 pixels on the active display line.
Now you can compare those directly to the arcade "numbers" and not worry about overscan throwing off pixel size representation. So to recap, this is to make all things even so you can see numbers in relation to "pixel size".
Btw, just for fun, pce/md/snes/nes/sms low res is ~285 pixels per active line. Not only did I calculate this myself, I tested these systems with my capture card that actually allowed recording video slightly beyond the edges of the active display line (had to use a special driver mode with Vdub for this.. years back). These should be accurate in +/- 2 or 3 pixel range.
I hope this makes thing more clear.
One thing that is not clear; what is the dot clock of the System16 boards? Is it the same for all? If the res is 320 pixels for the whole active line (no overscan), which is really typical to arcade systems, then that would indicate the Genesis resolution is actually higher than its arcade brethren. I think it would be strange for Sega arcade systems to have that much overscan, but then again maybe that's how they overcame the problem of prefetching/building issues with short hblank windows. The NG is known, but the CPS-1 and System 16 boards would need to be hooked up to an oscope or analyzer to know for sure what the active scanline looks like compare to the whole line. Or find the dot clock source, divide it be the tested frame rate, and divide that by the number of scanlines in the video signal (assuming they're all the same length). The NG comes out something like 325 active, so a few pixels of overscan.