Hardware Roll Call - What do you play Genesis games on?

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Originally Posted by Thunderblaze16

To be honest, I would actually enjoy the model 2 more if it wasn't for the sound issue.

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

What sound issue? :?

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Originally Posted by Baloo

The fact that the Model 2 sounds like it filters the sound through a busted speaker? ;)

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What versions of the Model 2 are these that sound so bad? Or are you all just playing through bad (tv) speakers? With rf out?
I'm going to guess most of its antagonists are playing with tv sound since most tvs, even those with outbuilt speakers, produce poor bass that mixes too much with the lower midrange, hence you'd be compensating for this with the VA6's excessive bass. Of course they tend not to produce perfectly high treble either (which may be intended: try enduring a laugh track over a stereo) so that the Model 2, which doesn't space the three frequency ranges quite so much, also gets labeled as too midrange for that.

VA6 Asian Pal Megadrive. I've hooked it up through the stereo before, man can this thing create some great bass! Streets of Rage sounded like I was in a club.

I don't actually have any Megadrive games right now though, I got this one in summer and had to borrow a few from my gf's old flat mate to test it out.

:(

I'm currently half way through modding mine, but lack of time has meant its been lying on a shelf for two months, though I did finally strip out the RF module yesterday, hopefully going to use the hole at the back to insert a region mod switch. I hate ugly switchs.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

What versions of the Model 2 are these that sound so bad? Or are you all just playing through bad (tv) speakers? With rf out?
I'm going to guess most of its antagonists are playing with tv sound since most tvs, even those with outbuilt speakers, produce poor bass that mixes too much with the lower midrange, hence you'd be compensating for this with the VA6's excessive bass. Of course they tend not to produce perfectly high treble either (which may be intended: try enduring a laugh track over a stereo) so that the Model 2, which doesn't space the three frequency ranges quite so much, also gets labeled as too midrange for that.

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I just nod along most of the time ;). To be honest, my model 2s (plural) have been the reason why I've been able to notice the Genesis' excellent source of music. I try to refrain from using the term 'audiophile' because it can irritate some users on this board, but I guess I'm just not as good nor that keen to sound specs of this order. If there's indeed a 'huge' difference in sound, I've yet to discern it myself. At the moment, I'm of the 'School of Thought' that such a difference is negligible, or at least negligible-enough for me.

Besides nostalgia (the model 2 being my first system), I do my gameplay on my model 2s (even though I have more model 1s at home than model 2s) because it's so much easier to get good video (and sound!) out of the model 2 than the model 1. All I need is my trust-worthy $3.00 stereo a/v cable and I have optimal-quality a/v on my 32" CRT.

Being the purist at heart that I am, though, I can see myself setting-up a model 1 just by itself one day. But for now, it's my trusty model 2/cd/32x tower of awesomeness. :)

Good model 2s do exist, as do bad model 1s.

The issue is that there are billions of barely tolerable to horrible sounding model 2s while almost all model 1s sound excellent.

If in doubt check this list: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?7796

If you don't wanna part with your model 2 despite its issues send it to TmEE to get it CCAM'd.

I can certainly hear that my Model 2 has a more compressed, crunchy, midrangey sound than the Model 1 or Nomad, but I don't really find it objectionable, and describing it as some kind of sonic travesty has always seemed a little over-the-top to me. I put mine through a Pioneer amp from the 1970s and it sounds fine.

StarMist's point about a laugh track through a stereo is well taken. There's a tendency to think that maximum fidelity and maximum clarity is always an ideal, but strong treble can easily be distracting and annoying. On a psychoacoustic level it forces you to pay attention to it -- something that not everyone wants to do! -- and takes up a LOT of aural/cognitive space.

I tend to find most "audiophile" equipment is way too trebly, and a lot of people seem to equate sound quality with a "smiley face" EQ curve with +6 dB at the top and bottom. Especially the top. To be honest when I've heard sound samples of the CCAM, it struck me as too bright for my tastes. Yeah, I can hear the hi-hats in TFIII, but it's not my style of VGM to begin with -- frankly when it comes to FM guitars and hi-hats, I'd rather have a little distance between me and the music.

That said, the Model 1 and Nomad sound great when you want a clean, smooth sound -- though actually, both consoles have a high noise floor in my experience: the Model 1's headphone jack is very hissy, the Nomad's has backlight noise, and both are more than noticeable over headphones. Both headphone jacks are also VERY hot -- much too hot to push under normal circumstances without destroying your hearing -- but if you put a signal attenuator between the output and your headphones, you could drive it hard and get very clean sound. Or just pipe it through your stereo, and use the headphone outs on that.

Full disclosure: I've worked as a recording engineer at a high-end studio, and generally found that the prevailing aesthetic seemed cold and clinical to me, resulting in super-clean recordings that felt joyless and surgical. I like old delay units and Space Echoes, tube amps and spring reverbs, and even will sometimes listen to music for pleasure on a cheap clock radio or boombox.

I also love the sound of a high-end system with a deep stereo image and smooth, natural-sounding soundstage: everything has its place. It just depends on the music, and the circumstance. (Actually I think the listening room -- its shape, proportions, construction material -- is far more relevant than people realize, and often more relevant than the choice of equipment. But that's another discussion.)

Again, the problem is less those model 2s hat produce something that's almost tolerable, it's more those model 2s that produce HORRIBLE sound that are the issue here.

When I grew up I had a VA6 model 1 with perfect audio. My best friend ended up with what I can now identify as a VA7 model 1 (a model 2 in a model 1 shell). This sounded noticeably worse than my model 1 (flat, muffled, like you described). My brother then ended up with what turns out to be one of the very worst model 2s out there. It didn't sound barely tolerable. It sounded FUCKING HORRIBLE. With distortion and everything.

So to sum it up again: Your milage may vary. But just because you got lucky and your model 2 sounds acceptable (to you?) do not make the mistake and assume that this must apply to each and every hardware revision that's out there and that those of us who decided to go through the trouble of actually comparing existing hardware variants must all be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

So to sum it up again: Your milage may vary. But just because you got lucky and your model 2 sounds acceptable (to you?) do not make the mistake and assume that this must apply to each and every hardware revision that's out there and that those of us who decided to go through the trouble of actually comparing existing hardware variants must all be wrong.

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I don't make, and haven't made, that assumption at all. I just think some of the rhetoric about the Model 2 is overblown, because while some consoles may sound horrible, some definitely don't. The difference between an average Model 2 (in my experience) and an average VA6 Model 1 isn't big enough to account for the whole "Friends don't let friends play on a Model 2" attitude that some posters have exhibited (half-jokingly, no doubt, but only half).

Do you have a recording of the "fucking horrible" Model 2 you mentioned? I'd be interested in hearing it. I've heard Model 1 vs. Model 2 comparisons with e.g. Thunder Force III, but my memory is that the Model 2 used in the recording sounded roughly comparable to the ones I've owned, i.e. certainly not horrible.

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Originally Posted by goldenband

I don't make, and haven't made, that assumption at all. I just think some of the rhetoric about the Model 2 is overblown, because while some consoles may sound horrible, some definitely don't. The difference between an average Model 2 (in my experience) and an average VA6 Model 1 isn't big enough to account for the whole "Friends don't let friends play on a Model 2" attitude that some posters have exhibited (half-jokingly, no doubt, but only half).

Do you have a recording of the "fucking horrible" Model 2 you mentioned? I'd be interested in hearing it. I've heard Model 1 vs. Model 2 comparisons with e.g. Thunder Force III, but my memory is that the Model 2 used in the recording sounded roughly comparable to the ones I've owned, i.e. certainly not horrible.

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Not trying to stir anything up, but this is my position on the matter as well. The average Model 2 isn't THAT bad, especially not on the average TV or normal speakers. IF you have a GREAT sound system with digital inputs and find yourself constantly complaining about how bad CDs sound, you'll probably think the Model 2 is bad, but that's not most people. Most folks will shrug and say "whatever". My own Model 2 and myself fall in that category. Sure, it's not Tiido's CCAM, but it's hardly Jack the Ripper on your ears. :D

I can't believe more people don't get modded model 3's. There so portable I had mine in my locker room for my entire football season at my University this year.

Locker room notes:

The split between guys who had a one of the 16-bit consoles growing up. Snes 65% compared to Genesis at 35% (bigger difference then I thought) there would be. Guys who missed out on the tale end the 16-bit era the young guys exclusively said they liked the Snes more compared to the Genesis (90/10). Why?.. all the Genesis had was Sonic... the Snes had DK, Mario, Zelda. A lot of them thought the Genesis was a "better" console (better graphics) and the Snes had better games. Weird considering it is the other way around in reality. Basically the young guys in the locker room proved Sega's name carries almost zero weight for people who missed the 16-bit era.
Locker room age ranges from 18 yrs old to 24 yrs old.

During the season I had whored Sega's name and marketed it as the 16-bit king and basically slandered the Snes. By the end of the year the locker room was 80% Genesis 20% Snes snes split. One Snes fanboy even brought one in to compete. Problem was...

Sonic 1,2, 3andK's smoked Super Mario World
Streets of Rage 1&2 smoked Final Fight 2 (I got straight pissed when 1 kid in particular complained about the graphics COD whore)
Super Street Fighter 2 Genesis was most played (he never brought in a fighter to compete)
Shinobi 3 (guys liked watching me play, they weren't good at it)
Golden Axe 1/2/3/ (another guy in my locker room was a huge fan of 1/2 we smoked these games together)
Vapor Trail (2-player sweetness)
The Punisher big surprise the locker room loved this game (a lot of guys had never really played straight beat em ups and loved them)
X-Men 2 Clone Wars vs X-Men Mutant Apocalypse (one is 2-player the other is not lol)

My plan bring in action games that were multi-player (smart idea considering the locker-room atmosphere were you usually have 30/1hr. blocks of free time.

He brought in a bunch of RPG's which nobody played and people would shut off it you tried playing them.

The ace up his sleeve was Turtles in Time that was the Snes game that by far got the most playing time (I will admit that I "put over" Turtles in Time compared to Hyperstone Heist) You gotta know when your beat and I like this game more then HH.

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Originally Posted by goldenband

Full disclosure: I've worked as a recording engineer at a high-end studio, and generally found that the prevailing aesthetic seemed cold and clinical to me, resulting in super-clean recordings that felt joyless and surgical. I like old delay units and Space Echoes, tube amps and spring reverbs, and even will sometimes listen to music for pleasure on a cheap clock radio or boombox.

I also love the sound of a high-end system with a deep stereo image and smooth, natural-sounding soundstage: everything has its place. It just depends on the music, and the circumstance. (Actually I think the listening room -- its shape, proportions, construction material -- is far more relevant than people realize, and often more relevant than the choice of equipment. But that's another discussion.)

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@ Point 1 = Recording acoustics have changed to reflect two altered playback dynamics: portable listening and overdrive sound systems. The former is a much more condensed acoustic for confined spaces (cars, cheap/earbud headphones), which isn't to say some after the fact compression like the Model 2's but firsthand, done in the studio, where the presence of a soundstage is removed in favour of a projection as if every instrument and voice were coming from a single source--obviously this isn't to say there's no separation, just to say that every sound source is uniformly leveled. The second is that most common stereo/portable equipment functions on overdrive at its normal settings, the cheapest way of giving a high power effect to low end equipment (and with the way electronics have been manufactured for quite some time unless you designedly sought out high end equipment yours is low end), which is to say you're pretty much assured a blaring tonality regardless of volume.

@ Point 2 = Nay, I think acoustics very pertinent. It's like with beginning musicians who all are rearing to go out and spend 5K on a a better sounding instrument...Why? Are you playing in a carpeted room? where are the windows? is there some big dead object right in the centre like a sofa? in the piano's case, is it against the wall? Perfect your acoustics and any beginner's instrument will sound top drawer. For those playing sound through their tvs I suggest placing before it a wooden table of equal height to the tv stand and see how your sound will carry. If using speakers ensure they're positioned somewhere reflective/focusing rather than just wherever looks best. Most people simply place their tv on some sort of pedestal and expect it to fill the room; fine if you don't care but not quite just if you're going to blame a make of machine or convince yourself to buy another based on that evaluation.

VA2 Model 1 Genesis. Made: June 1989 (No-TMSS)
Sega CD Model 1. Made: September 1992.

No 32x so far... although I´ll be getting one soon.

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Originally Posted by goldenband

Do you have a recording of the "fucking horrible" Model 2 you mentioned? I'd be interested in hearing it.

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No. A few years ago when only five and a half people cared about the differences I sent my brother's model 2 to Tiido (TmEE) to get it CCAM'd. I really regret not having recorded at least five hours of its craptastic "sound" for it to be preserved for eternity. But back then I tried to find the best MD variant, not the worst. Plus it seemed rather easy to find bad model 2s in the wild, so I felt that it shouldn't be too hard to dig up another one that's equally awful for recording.

Anyway, here's a comparison between a HDG model 1 and one of the slightly less awful model 2s: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Me...udio_and_video

Genesis model 1 for the most part.

Until my plan to switch to Megadrive actually works. Already had one from ebay disappear in the mail! :( (though from a nice seller who refunded me)

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

The average Model 2 isn't THAT bad, especially not on the average TV or normal speakers. IF you have a GREAT sound system with digital inputs and find yourself constantly complaining about how bad CDs sound, you'll probably think the Model 2 is bad

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The VA7 and early Genesis 2s sound like shit no matter what audio setup you're using. I used to have a VA7 model 1 and it sounded like crap through both lousy TV speakers and a decent sound system.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

Good model 2s do exist, as do bad model 1s.

The issue is that there are billions of barely tolerable to horrible sounding model 2s while almost all model 1s sound excellent.

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Almost all HDG model 1s sound excellent. Almost all non-HDG model 1s sound excellent with static or buzzing over top of the system generated sound.


I noticed the problems with model 2s before I'd read anything about it online. What stood out most wasn't that it sounded bad so much as wrong. After comparing consoles on hand, I found that my Nomads and Multi Mega/CDXs sounded right and model 1s sounded perfect to me, except for the buzzing.

I got a Genesis at launch, so maybe I'm somehow biased to how it sounds, but all model 2s I've heard sound unbalanced distortion and bass wise. But I'm also the type of person who doesn't like playing emulation and notices the difference in sound there as well.