Yea that's why all the awesome examples of 3D are on Saturn, and all the awesome examples of 2D are on the PS(the PS was meh at 3D).
The only good example of 3D on the PS, is Tenchu.
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Yea that's why all the awesome examples of 3D are on Saturn, and all the awesome examples of 2D are on the PS(the PS was meh at 3D).
The only good example of 3D on the PS, is Tenchu.
He likes the Dreamcast. Enough said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Breetai
I could see someone thinking that if they didn't like shoot 'em ups, 2D fighters, 3D fighters, puzzle games, arcade-style Racing games or RPGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
I think it quite the reverse: had the Saturn to be my only system when it came out I should've felt it lacking. I went with the Playstation early and got a Saturn later and will never regret it. But as a system that doesn't have to fill every gaming appetite it performs exceedingly well. In those straits the Genesis would be pretty ill off as well; only the PS and NES are self sufficient. The SNES, as much as naturally like it and am cultivating a taste for, is essentially restricted to those late hours I want my 16 bit gaming decaffeinated. So if the Saturn only has half as many choices in half as many genres as the PS, and most of them are good to great, that's more than enough.
Btw it's also solid for psychological/horror games and FPS.
edit : @ Zoltor//agostinho =Sega's best efforts are better than the majority of PS titles in solidity, colour, and framerate. To wit Nights, the Panzer Dragoons (including Saga), Burning Rangers...well everything but their racing games, I don't know what went wrong in that dept. -- Though, back at Thenewguy, nothing on PS compares to Sega Rally for arcade racing. Wipeout on PS is the antithesis of arcade racing, and the rest are party games such as Jet Moto, or sims cum street racers which are always garbage--. Panzer Dragoon Saga's giant enemies uniformly look better in every way than FF7's. Virtua Fighter 2 compares very favourably to Tekken 2. Even Wipeout on Saturn is very close to the PS game despite running 15% faster (my personal estimate, may be slightly less), and that's one of the PS's best looking games. It's only with Square's later games, from Chrono Cross to threads of Fate to the obvious inexhorable FFVIII and FFIX that the PS badly outclassed Sega's Saturn efforts.Quote:
@Zoltor
"Well that's BS though(it was better at 3D then the PS)"
Explain or just tell me that it was a joke.
On the other hand, for the common, lazily ported, rushed out the Playstation's back door stuff, the Saturn's 3D does look markedly worse. At best there are trade offs like with RE's backgrounds (the method Sega ought to have used for VF's btw). PS launch titles looked the worst on the Saturn because by the time of their porting they were already irrelevant--think Toshinden.
I don't get this. The Genesis had something for everyone into gaming, moreso than the SNES and TG16, IMO. If you throw in the Sega CD it covers quality traditional adventure games the others lack (outside of the Duo port of Loom). It seems as "self-sufficient" as the PS and NES to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
I personally love story games . . . not all story-based games mind-you, but well made ones at least . . . or quirky ones. (especially in genres I like)Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
That's why I really like some of the early multimedia-era stuff, from some of the quirky cases (like Return to Zork) to genuine high-budget high-quality cinema style cutscenes combined with solid gameplay/design. (like Wing Commander III)
Not to mention some of the story-based games with less FMV-cutscene-centric aspects. (like Lucas Arts advernture games, the X-Wing series -Allaince had the most involved story IMO- and some older/classic style RPGs and adventure games -and most of the Zelda games for that matter, especially the newer ones)
I'm not the kind of person to skip cutscenes . . . and sometimes re-watch scenes that I particularly liked. (and re-play games to find alternate cutscenes and such)
That said, I do dislike non-skipable cutscenes. (namely if I've seen them before or the few cases where I really don't care to watch it -or I'mjust playing the game to get the feel of it and will go back to play through properly later)
My preference by far is for games that don't just progress the story/characters in cutscenes, but actively involve the story and (especially) characters in the gameplay itself. (for adventure games this is usually a given, but for more action-oriented games it's less consistent -having good use of voice-acting/text-speech in-game that build on the characters while remaining pertinent to gameplay is definitely significant -it's something that X-Wing Alliance does pretty well too, or Crimson Skies for that matter -sticking to a similar genre; that's also something the Wing Commander games pushed from the start too, though WCIII brought that to another level)
Lacking in RPGs and exploratory games; racing too. Yes the NES is even worse off for racers but it's so strong in every other category that I don't mind, and choosing betwixt 8 and 16 bit racers is nothing lost, 32 bit and up is what I need. Puzzle platformers too, and to a greater* extent true puzzle games---which reminds me its augmented Snake Rattle n Roll is one of the last Genny titles I need to scrutinise. ----* Not so sure about this but I have to be off. Sure you don't care either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
All 3 are lacking.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
The SNES lacks in shooters, though it has a few good ones. Axelay, R-Type 3... Huuhhh... Super Aleste is one of the weakest in the series but it's good.... The japanese version of Bio Metal, but that has a bit too much slowdow. Yeah it just isn't up to par.
The Genesis lacks in RPGs, though it has a few good ones. There's only 4 RPGs that compare to the best on the SNES and TG-16, and those are PS IV, Langrisser 2, Lunar 2 and Shining Force 2. Maybe Rent a Hero too, though I'd have to play it translated to be sure.
The TG-16 lacks in platformers, though it has a few good ones. Bonk 2 is pretty nice, and so are both Legendary Axes. Legendary Axe is more of an action game though. Pure platformers are gravely lacking.
For RPGs, it had Phantasy Star 2-4 plus the best Western RPG on console at the time, Shadowrun. And with Sega CD there's the Lunar games. The Genesis might not be known as an RPG system but I think it's better than it gets credit for. It's kind of like when people say the SNES sucks for shooters even though it has some really strong ones like Space Megaforce and Firepower 2000.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
Exploratory games on Genesis - Monster World series, The Immortal, Ecco series, Flashback, Landstalker, etc.. I don't think it's lacking.
Racing games weren't the system's best area by any means but Virtua Racing and OutRun were good. If we're counting Sega CD, Batman Returns was quite impressive.
Puzzle games - It had the best console port of Klax, the Puyo Puyo series, and Columns. You might be right about the puzzle-platformer sub-genre. I'm having a hard time thinking of them. The Lost Vikings was well made. The MD Penguin Land game wasn't as good as the older SMS one and was only a modem game anyway.
I don't think the Genesis was the best in each genre but no one console has ever been. I just think it was as well-rounded as anything else. Culturally I think it covered Asian, North American, and European game development well at the time when consoles were usually Japan-dominated.
See right there, you're overrating both genesis RPGs and SNES shooters. People here need to be more picky :p.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Shadowrun on the genesis may be the best western RPG on console at the time but that's because it essentially has no serious competition, everything else is crap. If you pack Western RPGs and JRPGs into one big package it's just above average (though very unique and original, it has issues in every area). The first lunar is only good through nostalgia glasses (or in another system). Phantasy Star 2 didn't age well, 3 is and was a disappointment.
Space Megaforce (Super Aleste) is one of the weakest in the Aleste series. I'd take both MSX games and SMS games over it easily. Firepower 2000 isn't overrated, but that's because there's no reason for it to be. It was overrated when it was called SWIV and ran at 25fps with no music.
There isn't much exploration at all in the Monster World games. The Immortal sucks. Flashback was available on other systems so it's not a plus. Landstalker isn't really an exploration game either, you need to search for things sure but it's like zelda in that regard. I'll give you Ecco and Chakan (which you didn't mention), but chakan is an aquired taste, and one that I can't get.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Before the 32-bit generation they all sucked. Even on the SNES there's really only 3 good ones. Interestingly the genesis has MORE good ones if you count the 2 batman games on the sega cd (though one is just too hard).Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Pretty much yeah, puggsy ain't too bad as a puzzle platformer.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
The PS1 stands tall in every genre, the NES too (well, like StarMist said, not racers, but pre 32bit they all kinda sucked). The genesis gives you stuff in every genre, but not cream of the crop in every area, and neither do the SNES and TG-16. It might offer a better balance, as the SNES only has 2 really good shooters, and the TG-16 barely has any platformers.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Out of games I own, V-Rally 2 is significantly better, Ridge Racer Type 4 is significantly better, Ridge Racer 64 is significantly better, Beetle Adventure Racing is significantly better, and Need For Speed 3 is significantly better.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
Really, there's probably tons more, because realistically if Sega Rally had been released on PS1 or N64 in 1999 it would've been blasted, and given a 5/10 or 6/10 solely due to the track count, lack of customisation options, and lack of modes and features, so there could well be a bunch of playable racing games on those systems with extremely low scores simply due to low amounts of content (which Sega Rally suffers from anyway).
@StarMist
The best Sega titles are awesome, yes. But they are just a few.
You have made several of my points so I'll not argue about that.
To say that Saturn is better than PS1 for 3D is crazy though...
Several PS1's hardware capabilities had to be "covered" using software in the Saturn for 3D games. This has a lot to do with several bad versions of multiplatform games on the Saturn: it was more difficult to develop 3D games for it than for Playstation. Most of the time, even using good engines, the 3rd party 3D games are faster and better looking in the PS1.
You can point a few exceptions, I can point dozens of lame Saturn versions.
@sheath
That point about "more hits" and stuff like that is a good one IMO.
The same for Genesis vs SNES after 1992/1993: several well known multiplatform games had better versions for the SNES and this strongly contributed for an avalanche of hype to the Nintendo side.
Doom is awesome in the PS1, and a piece of crap in the Saturn. Duke Nukem 3D is better in the Saturn, but not by an abysmal margin like Doom.
Tomb Raider looks really dark and has glitches in the Saturn, like your video comparison showed... Saturn didn't fail for the lack of good and awesome games, it failed 'cause SOA marketing sucked pretty bad, as long as several "well known" (it does not means "good") multiplatform games being worse on it, lack of localization for many of its best games, biased magazines...
I don't like the Saturn for other reasons, as I pointed before. Also, maybe 'cause I don't cry for RPG games that much to buy the system due to Shinning Force, for an example; some genres and series that I liked on the Genesis and Sega CD, IMO, are better represented in the PS1 than in the Saturn.
Sega also screwed up with other things that could have made me love Saturn: not a single classic 2D Sonic game (improved or new or whatever), no sequel to series like Outrun or Hang-On, several other good Sega titles for the Genesis sent to limbo; Namco has gone to Sony; Psygnosis and Sony fell in love; no more dozens of European games; the best Sega games on the Saturn are 3D and I don't love 3D as much as 2D... Why Capcom could release the Knights of the Round games and Sega could not release Revenge of Death Adder?... Wonderful games like Quackshot re-released without any improvement...
@Kamahl
I agree with NeoZeedeater for the most part (maybe a few titles different; never mind...).
When Genesis games are great, they are a blast to play (the music is crystal clear, tons of parallax and sprites, perfect controls, no slowdowns...); while several said "oh my God! It's awesome!" titles for the SNES suffer from bad slowdown and/or heavily muffled sounds/soundtrack and/or generic instruments in the soundtracks (95% of the games sound alike)... SNES lovers will talk about color counting, but gameplay is so more important... And in many cases the bad slowdown just kills the original pace of the games or the pleasure to be playing like a freakin' fast beast. How many early titles do play like shit due to that? Compare with the Genesis early games...
The fact that the system was released 2 years after the Genesis hurts the games library IMO, since several early Genesis games were good arcade ports from games of those years or improved versions of NES games. The style of the games also changed after Sonic and SNES release IMO: less originality and more focus on graphics quality.
The Nintendo censorship also sucks balls and several games that I like wererapedmodified and lost their original feeling or style. Games like Splatterhouse are unthinkable for the SNES.
Considering that, the extra types of games offered by the Sega CD not present in SNES or very poorly represented and the huge Amiga library (usually with superior versions), the Genesis offers more games that really shine and are a blast to play, in more diverse genres and with European, Japanese and American styles.
The TG16, mainly for the CD games, is awesome and has several mind blowing games. However, some genres are severely lacking and most of the games (not only the platformers) lack the fluid animation that you can find in the SNES and even more on the Genesis; sadly, the parallax is just kinda rare trick appearing here and there. Finally, many soundtracks and sfx are too 8-bitish to my taste, thanks to it's soundchip and to the fact that the CD expansion has almost no extra-hardware when compared to the Sega CD.
The Hudson ports of SNK games are awesome and make the SNES/Genesis ports look like crap for the most part though...
However, the lack of European and American support contributed for an almost Japanese-only library in several aspects, and I like the diversity found on SNES and Genesis.
Phantasy Star 2? Really? Thanks for pointing that out. 3 and 4 fail in different ways, and though I do count the Shining Forces they still don't add up to a lot of gaming. Besides I did state it lacked, not sucked: different things. Surging Aura would be the joker card here. Yes there's also Super Hydlide for Western variety but on the whole those games everybody likes to bring in from left field suck (here I mean suck). I'd need at least another 2 extremely good or half a dozen enjoyable RPGs to make it fit my idea of being self sufficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
My fault, despite my talk of NES and PS which should naturally have met halfway at 16 bit I was thinking more in terms of 32 bit style exploration. Also I was applying the term to games that haven't a genre ('adventure' is meaningless), fitting examples of which would be Ecco and Flashback; Landstalker whilst certainly exploratory is already covered by ARPG. And the Monster World series always slips my mind.Quote:
Exploratory games on Genesis - Monster World series, The Immortal, Ecco series, Flashback, Landstalker, etc.. I don't think it's lacking.
I said this. Minus VR, but then not everybody likes everything.Quote:
Racing games weren't the system's best area by any means but Virtua Racing and OutRun were good. If we're counting Sega CD, Batman Returns was quite impressive.
Not a whole lot; the Puyo Puyo conversions are poor and Columns is not the best. I forget how well Bomberman's regarded (if it fits the category for you--should probably be a puzzle platformer, the platform being pushed on its back ie into overhead perspective, as would stuff like Boulder Dash on NES). One more strong IP here would've made a huge difference. Not that it's the NES forte either.Quote:
Puzzle games - It had the best console port of Klax, the Puyo Puyo series, and Columns.
Neither of you likes Area 888? Presumably Axelay was just too pat to mention. I enjoy Space Megaforce for being different from the Alestes. Over SWIV I'd certainly take Imperium and perhaps even Hyperzone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
So I thought of the Monster World games except that I could never stand playing them long enough to be sure.Quote:
There isn't much exploration at all in the Monster World games.
Exclusivity wasn't my point; rather the opposite given the term was 'self sufficience'. Btw The Immortal's also on NES.Quote:
The Immortal sucks. Flashback was available on other systems so it's not a plus.
>>>
You did of course get my overall point. @ TGFX = that's the shame about it, those absent platformers. Further proof that everybody should've owned every system all at once back in the day.Quote:
The PS1 stands tall in every genre, the NES too (well, like StarMist said, not racers, but pre 32bit they all kinda sucked). The genesis gives you stuff in every genre, but not cream of the crop in every area, and neither do the SNES and TG-16. It might offer a better balance, as the SNES only has 2 really good shooters, and the TG-16 barely has any platformers.
Here's what I originally said: "Though, back at Thenewguy, nothing on PS compares to Sega Rally for arcade racing." Why the hell are you bringing up N64 titles?Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
Also, Need for Speed is bullshit (for anybody unfamiliar V-Rally 2 is NFS V-R2) and Ridge Racer a joke. Is gameplay time content? Because RR4 is over one's first session: I beat it w/o losing a race the first time I ever played it.
1999? Sega Rally was released in 1995 for the Christmas season on the Saturn. SR2 was released in 1999 just post launch for the Dreamcast. The latter, though a broken mess, did include lots of content. And speaking of broken messes that's what your post is.Quote:
Really, there's probably tons more, because realistically if Sega Rally had been released on PS1 or N64 in 1999 it would've been blasted, and given a 5/10 or 6/10 solely due to the track count, lack of customisation options, and lack of modes and features, so there could well be a bunch of playable racing games on those systems with extremely low scores simply due to low amounts of content (which Sega Rally suffers from anyway).
From a modern perspective, the PSX is actually probably a good bit better in 2D than 3D . . . it was excellent at both from a 1994 perspective (and better in both areas than the Saturn in some respects -the Saturn can do some 3D/pseudo 3D stuff better than the PSX, and the PSX can do some 2D things that the Saturn can't do as well either -and each have some things that the other can't do at all).Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiespruce
But, again, from a modern perspective, the PSX is far better at 2D than 3D. (ie the 2D games are much more competitive to modern 2D games than the 3D games are with modern 3D -and most average people would probably find the 2D games to have aged much better than the 3D ones)
This reminds me: someone should really test SNES games on flash carts to compare which ones were bottlenecked by slow ROM. (ie how many games would run significantly smoother by having the CPU at 3.58 MHz rather than 2.68 MHz)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
IIRC, there's a few late-gen re-releases that did just that (switched to faster ROM and show significantly less slowdown), so it would definitely be interesting to see how that impacted other games. (hell, imagine of the PC Engine was stuck with 2.68 MHz or even 3.58 MHz in ROM -albeit it would still have a 7.16 MHz scratchpad to work in, unlike the 2.68 MHz access to SNES DRAM)
I said Saturn was awful for racing games for that generation, so I'm covering both bases.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
No, V-Rally 2, is V-Rally 2, I couldn't care less if the series was re-branded when it went to the US by a completely unrelated company.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
Then you saw absolutely nothing of the game because you have to do it with all teams (hard and easy difficulty) for the unlockables, and all teams have separate story paths they follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
Yes, but you're not arguing that Sega Rally was the best arcade racer in 1995, you're arguing it was the best arcade racing game of that whole generation, anything comparable to Sega Rally released in 1999 or later on PS1 would've been blasted to shit, so if you're doing a direct comparison you're going to have to check through all low rated PS1 racing games too, of which there are bloody masses.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
I enjoy them okay, I played through all of the Soul Reaver games multiple times, I've played through Wing Commander on Sega CD and Colony Wars on PS1 once. Most other non-RPG story games can get my interest for a while but most of them wouldn't make a decent novel. What I really don't like is when a platform emphasizes story over gameplay. The Playstations and now Xboxes and in some respect the SNES do this. They all take a mediocre beat-em up or 3D adventure game, add in Noir/Urban Theme/Modern Warfare, and the kiddos go nuts for the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
As for 3D Racers, Sega Rally is one of the best of all time. The physics are exquisite. In Sega Rally, if you are sliding on asphalt, and hit dirt, things change accordingly. Meaning you will slide further in the dirt than you would on asphalt, and the jump from one to the other causes the car to react accordingly. If you're powersliding on dirt and your back or front tires hit asphalt first, that end of the car gains a sudden stick to the ground, that again would occur in reality. You can't say the same for the Gran Turismo games, and I find Test Drive V-Rally and Collin McCray clunky in comparison. You could gripe about the AI being "ghost cars" but that complaint could be leveled at most 3D Racers, especially the "real driving simulator".
You could say that Sega Rally doesn't have enough cars and tracks, which would also eliminate most PS1 racers, and in which case one should really try out High Velocity on Saturn for an extended session (it levels Ridge Racer anyway). For only four tracks, I haven't gotten more challenge and replay value from any other racing game. I might have raced LeMans in Test Drive Lemans and Forza 4 as much as I have any given Sega Rally track, and I was still improving my time in Sega Rally.
That isn't even including how close a conversion Sega Rally on Saturn is with its Model 2 source.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaMh7chvrkY
Not too shabby for a system Playstation fans insist wasn't really a 3D system.
Fine. But given `99 comes into the equation you're probably ulteriorly weighing in the DC's racers, no? While you're at it you might as well define what it is in arcade racers you like. I'm not going to get into every genre with you. The N64 has a pretty heavy multiplayer advantage but don't dismiss the attraction of playing a racer earnestly alone for times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
I don't give a shit about story in racing games. If there were hidden tracks then I did miss something but nothing that could be done to the circuit I did see could make it interesting. Plus when the game's foundation doesn't draw one in why should anybody stick around for the unlockables?Quote:
Then you saw absolutely nothing of the game because you have to do it with all teams (hard and easy difficulty) for the unlockables, and all teams have separate story paths they follow.
There are not masses of arcade racers on the PS, PS racers mostly consist of loose sims and street racers. If you don't wish to acknowledge those distinctions go ahead and list every game you want but that's my vantage. Yes it would've been ripped in `99 for the same reasons it was by some places in `95, the graphics and smallness, however it boasts superb mechanics, a steep challenge, and a rightly moderate amount of tailoring, hence great replay value. It has some personality too which is rare for racers of any type. RR, NFS, and GT certainly don't; neither do Sega GT or even Rally Revo. An interesting source of competition would be Wipeout XL if you wanted to consider that an arcade racer (plays like a rally game with weapons---too many weapons); don't know how the SS version stacks up against the PS since completing the PS version was enough for me.Quote:
Yes, but you're not arguing that Sega Rally was the best arcade racer in 1995, you're arguing it was the best arcade racing game of that whole generation, anything comparable to Sega Rally released in 1999 or later on PS1 would've been blasted to shit, so if you're doing a direct comparison you're going to have to check through all low rated PS1 racing games too, of which there are bloody masses.
edit @ sheath = just saw your post---that bit about not finding PS games with many more tracks than Sega Rally is way off, I wouldn't be surprised were there some with over 20, especially where tracks as short as SR's first are mixed in.