Still looks like crap XD, but the parallax scrolling is awesome.
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Still looks like crap XD, but the parallax scrolling is awesome.
I think you just cancelled out your 2 points.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
There aren't a huge number of games that are made for the PC primarily, that's the point. Cheap indie titles are not what high-end PC users buy their hardware for. They/I want PC games that push DX11 hardware, while being catered towards the use of the PC keyboard interface as well.Quote:
C) You're ignoring the number of game which are made for the PC primarily, THEN ported to consoles. There are no more exclusives, save for first party titles. The PC gaming library today is bigger than it's ever been before. More big name publishers support PC gaming than ever in the history of the medium.
Just look at Oblivion, it was a stunning piece of software that showed why PC gaming was at the lead of gaming technology. Years later, the developer decided they'd make more money catering to the console first by making Skyrim a DX9 title. Crysis was a hardware showcase for the PC in 2007, but Crytek didn't make a ton of money on the game, yet everyone seemed to have a copy. 4 years later, Crytek designs their latest engine around the consoles and provides a DX11 patch for the PC user, 4 months after its release. Read PC publications like Maximum PC and you'll hear in the reviews about how poorly handled the top titles are for the format. Arkham City was a console game first and ported to the PC hardware second; even the DX11 patch is full of bugs.
As far as the current indie scene goes, the late 80's and early 90's were pretty much an indie market. Most of the developers and publishers were small upstart companies that took risks and created titles on shoe-sting budgets with small teams. id software was pretty much a 4 man team when they put together Doom. Just look at all of these great titles that were released between 1989 and 1996.
Sid Meier's Civilization - Microprose, 1993
Sid Meier's Pirates - Microprose, 1994
Red Baron - Sierra, 1990
Doom - id Software, 1993
Doom II - id Software, 1994
Hexon: Beyond Heteric - id Software, 1995
Lemmings - Psygnosis, 1991
Wing Commander - Origin, 1990
Wing Commander II - Origin, 1991
Wing Commander III - Origin, 1994
Panzer General - SSI, 1994
Gabriel Knight: Sins of the fathers - Sierra, 1993
Gabriel Knight 2: The Beast Within - Sierra, 1996
Falcon 3.0 - Spectrum HoloByte, 1991
Secret of Monkey Island - LucasArts, 1989
Secret of Monkey Island II - LucasArts, 1990
Their Finest Hour - LucasArts, 1990
X-COM - MPS, 1994
MechWarrior 2 - Activision, 1995
Warcraft - Blizzard, 1994
Warcraft II - Blizzard, 1995
Star Control - Accolade, 1992
Star Control 2 - Accolade, 1994
Master of Orion - Simtex/MPS, 1993
Master of Orion II - Simtex/MPS 1996
Day of the Tentacle - LucasArts, 1993
Quake - id, 1996
Duke Nukem 3D - Apogee, 1996
Crusader: No Remorse - Origin, 1995
Ultima VI - Origin, 1990
Sid Meier's Railroad Tycoon - MPS, 1990
Aces of the Pacific - Dynamix, 1992
Command & Conquer - Westwood, 1995
Command & Conquer: Red Alert - Westwood 1996
Prince of Persia - Broderbund, 1990
TIE Fighter - LucasArts, 1994
Syndicate - Bullfrog, 1993
Dune 2 - Westwood, 1992
Alone in the Dark - I-Motion, 1992
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis - LucasArts, 1993
The King's Quest V - Sierra, 1990
The King's Quest VI: Heir today gone tomarrow - Sierra, 1992
Wolfenstein 3-D - Apogee, 1992
System Shock - Origin, 1994
Under a Killing Moon - Access, 1993
Decent - Interplay, 1995
Descent II - Interplay, 1996
I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream - Cyberdreams, 1995
Master of Magic - MPS, 1994
Magic Carpet - Bullfrog/EA, 1994
Their Finest Hour - LucasArts, 1990
Chuck Yeager's Air Combat - EA, 1989
Crusader: No Remorse - Origin, 1995
Neverwinter Nights - Beyond Software, 1991
BattleTech: The Crescent Hawks' Revenge - Infocom, 1990
Beneath a Steel Sky - Virgin Interactive, 1994
The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall - Bethesda, 1996
The Bard's Tale III: Thief of Fate - Interplay, 1990
The Adventure's of Willy Beamish - Sierra Online, 1991
Dungeon Master - FTL Games, 1989
Cannon Fodder - Sensible SOftware, 1994
Heretic: Shadow of the Serpent Riders - Raven Software/id Software, 1996
Fade to Black - Delphine, 1995
Flashback: The quest for Identity - Dilphine, 1993
Out of this World - Delphine, 1991
Full Throttle - Lucasarts, 1995
Pirates! Gold - Micropros, 1993
Space Quest 1 thru 6 - Sierra, 1991 to 1996
Star Wars: Dark Forces - Lucasarts, 1995
Star Wars: Rebel Assault - Lucasarts, 1993
Star Wars: Rebel Assault 2 - Lucasarts, 1995
Star Wars: X-Wing (COllector's CD-ROM) Lucasarts, 1994
Eye of the Beholder - SSI, 1991
Eye of the Beholder II: The Legened of Darkmoon - SSI, 1991
Eye of the Beholder III: Assault on Myth Drannor - SSI 1993
AD&D: Curse of the Azure Bonds - SSI, 1989
AD&D - Forgotten Realms: DUngeaon Hack - SSI, 1993
Links 386 Pro - Access Software, 1993
B-17 Flying Fortress - Micropros, 1992
Powermonger - Bullfrog/EA 1992
SimLife - Maxis 1992
SimCity 2000 - Maxis 1993
SimCity - Maxis 1989
SimEarth - Maxis 1990
Wizardry: Crusaders of the Dark Savant - Sir-tec, 1992
The 7th Guest - Virgin, 1993
Heroes of Might and Magic - New World Pub, 1995
A-10 Tank Killer - Dynamix, 1989
688 Attack Sub - EA, 1989
Star Flight 2: Trade Routes of the Cloud Nebula - EA, 1989
Gunship 2000 - Microprose, 1992
Myst - Cyan, 1995
Elite Plus - Microplay, 1991
Mig-29 Fulcrum - Domark, 1990
F-117A Nighthawk Steathfighter 2.0 - Microprose, 1991
Cadaver - Bitmap Bros., 1991
Plant's Edge - The Point of no Return - New World Pub, 1991
Those two points aren't even close to being mutually exclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
No, PC gamers buy high end PCs, like the one I have, so they can get the very best version of multiplatform games. Even games which werent developed for PCs primarily wind up being miles better on the format than their console counterparts, such as Sonic Generations.Quote:
There aren't a huge number of games that are made for the PC primarily, that's the point. Cheap indie titles are not what high-end PC users buy their hardware for. They/I want PC games that push DX11 hardware, while being catered towards the use of the PC keyboard interface as well.
Just look at Oblivion, it was a stunning piece of software that showed why PC gaming was at the lead of gaming technology. Years later, the developer decided they'd make more money catering to the console first by making Skyrim a DX9 title. Crysis was a hardware showcase for the PC in 2007, but Crytek didn't make a ton of money on the game, yet everyone seemed to have a copy. 4 years later, Crytek designs their latest engine around the consoles and provides a DX11 patch for the PC user, 4 months after its release. Read PC publications like Maximum PC and you'll hear in the reviews about how poorly handled the top titles are for the format. Arkham City was a console game first and ported to the PC hardware second; even the DX11 patch is full of bugs.
As far as the current indie scene goes, the late 80's and early 90's were pretty much an indie market. Most of the developers and publishers were small upstart companies that took risks and created titles on shoe-sting budgets with small teams. id software was pretty much a 4 man team when they put together Doom. Just look at all of these great titles that were released between 1989 and 1996.
Sid Meier's Civilization - Microprose, 1993
Sid Meier's Pirates - Microprose, 1994
Red Baron - Sierra, 1990
Doom - id Software, 1993
Doom II - id Software, 1994
Hexon: Beyond Heteric - id Software, 1995
Lemmings - Psygnosis, 1991
Wing Commander - Origin, 1990
Wing Commander II - Origin, 1991
Wing Commander III - Origin, 1994
Panzer General - SSI, 1994
Gabriel Knight: Sins of the fathers - Sierra, 1993
Gabriel Knight 2: The Beast Within - Sierra, 1996
Falcon 3.0 - Spectrum HoloByte, 1991
Secret of Monkey Island - LucasArts, 1989
Secret of Monkey Island II - LucasArts, 1990
Their Finest Hour - LucasArts, 1990
X-COM - MPS, 1994
MechWarrior 2 - Activision, 1995
Warcraft - Blizzard, 1994
Warcraft II - Blizzard, 1995
Star Control - Accolade, 1992
Star Control 2 - Accolade, 1994
Master of Orion - Simtex/MPS, 1993
Master of Orion II - Simtex/MPS 1996
Day of the Tentacle - LucasArts, 1993
Quake - id, 1996
Duke Nukem 3D - Apogee, 1996
Crusader: No Remorse - Origin, 1995
Ultima VI - Origin, 1990
Sid Meier's Railroad Tycoon - MPS, 1990
Aces of the Pacific - Dynamix, 1992
Command & Conquer - Westwood, 1995
Command & Conquer: Red Alert - Westwood 1996
Prince of Persia - Broderbund, 1990
TIE Fighter - LucasArts, 1994
Syndicate - Bullfrog, 1993
Dune 2 - Westwood, 1992
Alone in the Dark - I-Motion, 1992
Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis - LucasArts, 1993
The King's Quest V - Sierra, 1990
The King's Quest VI: Heir today gone tomarrow - Sierra, 1992
Wolfenstein 3-D - Apogee, 1992
System Shock - Origin, 1994
Under a Killing Moon - Access, 1993
Decent - Interplay, 1995
Descent II - Interplay, 1996
I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream - Cyberdreams, 1995
Master of Magic - MPS, 1994
Magic Carpet - Bullfrog/EA, 1994
Their Finest Hour - LucasArts, 1990
Chuck Yeager's Air Combat - EA, 1989
Crusader: No Remorse - Origin, 1995
Neverwinter Nights - Beyond Software, 1991
BattleTech: The Crescent Hawks' Revenge - Infocom, 1990
Beneath a Steel Sky - Virgin Interactive, 1994
The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall - Bethesda, 1996
The Bard's Tale III: Thief of Fate - Interplay, 1990
The Adventure's of Willy Beamish - Sierra Online, 1991
Dungeon Master - FTL Games, 1989
Cannon Fodder - Sensible SOftware, 1994
Heretic: Shadow of the Serpent Riders - Raven Software/id Software, 1996
Fade to Black - Delphine, 1995
Flashback: The quest for Identity - Dilphine, 1993
Out of this World - Delphine, 1991
Full Throttle - Lucasarts, 1995
Pirates! Gold - Micropros, 1993
Space Quest 1 thru 6 - Sierra, 1991 to 1996
Star Wars: Dark Forces - Lucasarts, 1995
Star Wars: Rebel Assault - Lucasarts, 1993
Star Wars: Rebel Assault 2 - Lucasarts, 1995
Star Wars: X-Wing (COllector's CD-ROM) Lucasarts, 1994
Eye of the Beholder - SSI, 1991
Eye of the Beholder II: The Legened of Darkmoon - SSI, 1991
Eye of the Beholder III: Assault on Myth Drannor - SSI 1993
AD&D: Curse of the Azure Bonds - SSI, 1989
AD&D - Forgotten Realms: DUngeaon Hack - SSI, 1993
Links 386 Pro - Access Software, 1993
B-17 Flying Fortress - Micropros, 1992
Powermonger - Bullfrog/EA 1992
SimLife - Maxis 1992
SimCity 2000 - Maxis 1993
SimCity - Maxis 1989
SimEarth - Maxis 1990
Wizardry: Crusaders of the Dark Savant - Sir-tec, 1992
The 7th Guest - Virgin, 1993
Heroes of Might and Magic - New World Pub, 1995
A-10 Tank Killer - Dynamix, 1989
688 Attack Sub - EA, 1989
Star Flight 2: Trade Routes of the Cloud Nebula - EA, 1989
Gunship 2000 - Microprose, 1992
Myst - Cyan, 1995
Elite Plus - Microplay, 1991
Mig-29 Fulcrum - Domark, 1990
F-117A Nighthawk Steathfighter 2.0 - Microprose, 1991
Cadaver - Bitmap Bros., 1991
Plant's Edge - The Point of no Return - New World Pub, 1991
Your list is meaningless to me. Look at the number of PC titles released last year alone - it eclipses that entire list you posted. And every single PC game released within the last year is, at bare minimum, much better than the console versions.
EDIT: Also, a great number of the titles you listed weren't developed for high-end pcs primarily. In fact, a great number of titles you listed were created for the Atari ST or Amiga - computers with hardware dating back to 1985. Like Beneath a steel sky or Syndicate.
Okaaaay!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Really?Quote:
No, PC gamers buy high end PCs, like the one I have, so they can get the very best version of multiplatform games. Even games which werent developed for PCs primarily wind up being miles better on the format than their console counterparts, such as Sonic Generations.
I've been sitting on a DX11 card setup for over a year and a half and there's maybe a half dozen games that were developed to take advantage of it, and the rest were patched. There's a big difference between an enhanced version of a DX9 game on PC and a game that was developed for the hardware. I don't recall DX9 being neglected like this.
Also, you're claiming that PC gaming is better than it has ever been, and you're saying it's because of Indie titles. Those Indie titles can be ran on a 7 year old laptop, and in some cases, they're available on the consoles as well.
I'd love to see that list. The list I made wasn't fluffed up with filler like Leisure Suit Larry, or Leather Goddess of Phobos. Those were legit hits of the times.Quote:
Your list is meaningless to me. Look at the number of PC titles released last year alone - it eclipses that entire list you posted. And every single PC game released within the last year is, at bare minimum, much better than the console versions.
Go ahead, list your Minecraft, Dungeon Seige III and The Old Republic. This list is a lot shorter than you think.
Here's a start.
They were all computer games and only about 5% of those were developed on the ST or Amiga first. Even if some of those titles did appear on the Amiga, the PC usually got that game on the CD-ROM format.Quote:
EDIT: Also, a great number of the titles you listed weren't developed for high-end pcs primarily. In fact, a great number of titles you listed were created for the Atari ST or Amiga - computers with hardware dating back to 1985. Like Beneath a steel sky or Syndicate.
I agree. It usually looks worse than the MD (several areas have better coloring/shading -though all single-playfield cases iirc), but it's still a nice looking Amiga game compared to a ton of other stuff (including the preceding Turrican games).Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
Yes, some games are more fun to play due to the technical achievements alone . . . which is probably part of my preference/tolerance for some old/primitive 3D/pseudo 3D games too. (and some VCS games for that matter ;))Quote:
I can't even bring myself to play Turrican 1 or 2 on Amiga they're so pathetic, really basic colour use (both in numbers, and bland choices), next to no detail etc, C64 is my choice of system for the 1st two games, Mega Drive is my choice for the 3rd (though I can quite happily play the Amiga game in that example), I might think about picking up the ST version to give me something impressive to play on the system, and for the in-game music, but never the Amiga version, I hate the sight of it :yuck:
On another note, what you you think of the modified graphics of the 1994 DOS release of Turrican II:
(I don't really care for some of the intro artwork -though it's better than Turrican III ;), but it's a bit harder to say for the in-game stuff with the added shading, color, and some modified sprites -especially for bosses, and the sound/music samples seem to be improved too, and no instrument cut-out for SFX in-game either)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zndMhnLkj4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZVBS5OPVRg (this one's in stereo and has the full intro, but much less gameplay footage)
One problem with this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
How do the standard NTSC C64 monitors compare, or, for that matter, the C64 composite/RF out on normal NTSC TVs (saturation my be different from PAL -or emulation for that matter).
Plus, you can easily manually adjust saturation on those monitors (and TVs) in any case. Some people tend to use excessive saturation by default too. (though I prefer to have the TV normally set close to normal saturation -or slightly desaturated in some cases)
So emulation or "normal" native saturation of the C64 palette could be very different from the way many people actually used the system back then, or today for that matter.
Actually, particularly on older sets, it was common for NTSC TVs to be calibrated with excess saturation by default, which might partially explain the trend for relatively pastel/destaturated palettes on several early consoles and computers. (including Atari, TI, and Commodore)
This was often the case for most newer SDTVs too, especially cheaper ones (including some without user-adjustable color/picture settings at all ;)).
SOME PC gamers do that, but there's a huge variety of other cases, from casual gamers on PCs or budget-minded gamers on PCs. (in the latter case, you could have users who upgrade infreqently and hunt for the best deals on new and used hardware and software . . . which often tends to be cheaper than their console counterparts, and -depending on one's hardware set-up and the release date in question- could very well be technically superior on PC as well)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Granted, to really, effectively be budget-minded on the hardware end, you'd either need a good local PC dealer/workshop, a technically capable friend/family member to help you, or being capable of handling that yourself. And then there's the issue of installing the games too. (and perhaps the biggest pain in modern PC gaming -DRM)
Console gaming obviously has cost advantages too, but most people are going to need at least some sort of decent PC regardless, and taking the step further to building an actually decent gaming rig can be a much better investment than buying a console on top of that, at least if you know what you're doing. (and, for that matter, upgrading a standard ATX PC can often be done on a reasonable budget too -with things like the case, monitor, PSU, most of the drives and I/O cards already there, the main cost is for moterboard+CPU+video card, and that's assuming you're upgrading all 3 at once -and RAM may or may not be re-usable depending on the circumstances . . . and in the case of working with a dealer/workshop, you may be able to get a decent value on a trade-in for your old CPU+motherboard too)
There's certainly the "hardcore" segment of the PC gamers too, who tend to invest in high-end gaming rigs that are continually being upgraded, but unless you define "PC gamers" as that specific market niche, then no, that's not the only case. (albeit, you could also have hybrid cases of tech-savvy users building very near high-end spec PCs at relatively low budgets -relative to the typical cost of such machines- and upgrading moderately less frequently -more dependent on good deals on new and availability of used parts- and this was more the case of My dad/family when I was growing up)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
I sort of did the slow progression to the gaming PC I'd built early last year.
I started out with an HP computer in 2009. The system had a dual-core E6300 @ 2.83 Ghz, 8 gigs of DDR2 memory at 800 mhz and 750 gig HDD. I dropped a GTS 250 in the open PCI-E x 16 slot and it did fairly well with DX9 and DX10 games. I had $125 in free Amazon gift cards, so I bought an Intel Quad-Core Q9650 @ 3 Ghz. I replaced my E6300 with it and bought a GTX 460 in the fall of 2010. The games performed pretty well, but I really wanted to try out Physx and the HP computer didn't have another PCI-E x16 slot, so I started looking at the option of getting another LGA 775 motherboard. I found a XFX Nforce 750i board for $75 on Amazon; the board supported sli, so it was a good option. I dropped the Q9650 (O.C to 3.3 Ghz) in the new board, bought 8 gigs of PS2-8500 for @ $120, bought the coolermaster hyper N520 to cool the cpu, picked up a mid-tower with a Best Buy gift card I had (was around $70) and moved my GTX 460 over. I had one 500 gig HDD sitting around, so I bought a second Seagate 500 gig HDD (7200). I later bought another GTX 460 about 8 months ago, when the prices dropped.
I put together a nice mid, to high end PC for under $1,000. I have it setup to dual-boot Windows 7 (64-bit) or Windows XP Pro (32-bit), so I can run just about anything from the mid-90's to current. I'd like to see more software that takes advantage of it though, because getting Bioshock 2 with higher res texture mapping is cool and all, but there are still many things about the game that scream last gen hardware. I'm certainly looking forward to the next chapter of Starcraft II, but I don't know of much else that is coming out, that I couldn't play on my couch with a console.
This is one thing that the next generation of consoles should greatly impact too . . . new-gen (relatively) high-performance consoles means newer games pushing for that newer hardware and thus much more likely to be pushing much closer to the limits of high-end gaming PCs too. (aside from PC-exclusives in general, which tend to be far less impacted -more an issue of games simply targeting the high-end vs mid-range/etc, or putting the resources into facilitating both substantial high-end performance as well as adequate performance on slower machines at lower detail settings)Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Granted, it also helps when console and PC hardware is relatively similar. (otherwise you get a lot more conflict over architecture-specific optimization, and I don't mean CPU ISA or such, but general system architecture -ie CPU+GPU/etc feature sets and configuration in the systems)
Oh, and to be honest, I'm way behind in current gen PC gaming (the whole family really), in part due to financial and personal/family issues (not to get into details) and in part due to my personal priorities on actual gaming. (in my case at least, there's a big draw for focusing more on retro games -include old PC games . . . though I do want to eventually get back into newer PC games -several modern genres I love- and I know my dad would tend towards the more recent stuff when he gets back into it -back in the 90s and early 2000s, he was the one in our house with the real gaming PC ;) -my brother and I ended up with more budget-minded decent performance multimedia/games PCs for the most part)
Oh, and newguy, here's a complete longplay of DOS Turrican II (albeit still in mono and probably emulated -and in mono . . . not sure if it's representative of the proper sound quality either -in terms of mixing resolution or sample rate . . . sounds kind of low res and low sample rate, like it's on an 8-bit sound blaster or something, except without the heavy filtering)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ov_yXmDgpdE
Not sure really, it definitely looks more impressive, but the style is very different, and it doesn't look "authentic" Turrican to me, kind of more stylised and cartoony.
I guess to anyone who grew up with that version all the original games would look pretty cheap.
I still hate that intro no matter which version its in :(
I personally like the intro . . . but that's looking at it from zero perspective of having it as a kid (ie only discovering the game a couple years ago). I like most of the charcater/human/etc art in the original scenes (with a few exceptions), but most of the ship/space/corridoor/etc art better in the DOS version. (art style aside, I don't like how several scenes are reduced to solid black BGs)Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
And, even if I didn't like the intro art/story at all, I'd still at least prefer it to the odd pseudo-anime mess in Turrican III/Mega Turrican. ;) (OK, manly just the 2 human characters depicted in that intro is what ruins it)
In terms of the technical end of things though, the ST version would still be the most impressive given the late release of the PC game. Well . . . actually, that would probably depend on the minimum system requirements for that game. (namely RAM/CPU . . . but I can't seem to find any manual/box scans or system requirement information on the PC game -seems to use normal VGA mode X graphics, nothing SVGA-specific- but as for CPU and RAM I'm not sure -almost certainly not 286 code given virtually all PC games being released by then were 386 or higher, but the question would be more of whether it would run decently on a low-end 386SX machine . . . and how much RAM was needed -you could technically run almost any 386/486-specific program on an SX -regardless of whether it was below the minimum spec listed on the software- but RAM would be another issue -that's a minimum requirement that will prevent the program from running at all rather than just being slow -same for having the necessary instruction set supported by the CPU and the right video architecture . . . I'd assume it would have used at least 4 MB of RAM though, given there were basically no 1994 new-releases that used less than that -not CD re-releases of older games, mind you, but actual new games . . . and cases like X-Wing where the CD version was actually a modified remake on the Tie Fighter engine and also required 4 MB to the 1 MB of the 1993 floppy game)