The PSX Vs Saturn Poll.

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Originally Posted by DSwizzy145

It's now officially confirmed that Barone is a PlayStation fanboy!

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Looks like and that's not a big deal its rank hypocrisy that more of deal. You know lets Prasie Mega Drive games running at a higher Screen Res than Snes games, but not for Saturn games Vs PS games. Lets knock Mode 7 as just a effect that adds nothing to gameplay, but lets praise Transparent effects (never knew Transparent effects altered Gameplay myself) and best of all lets dismiss Interviews that knock the Mega Drive only to post your own interviews and for added irony one from Capcom who I gather Barone rates has sh8t programmers . You couldn't make it up

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Originally Posted by Barone

I can picture a little Saturn fanboy crying and shitting his pants while screaming this broken English rant to the top of his lungs

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I'm not English , so sorry to crush a dream and a picture.

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Each version of the game plays to the strengths of the hardware they're using

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Saturn version looks better and runs at a Higher res , so much so I gather Tomonobu Itagaki holds in higher reguard than even the Arcade version and thats why Team Ninja choose to put the Saturn version in DOA Dead or Alive Ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

PS2 got a graphically inferior version that's what happened. I assume Capcom meant RE4 couldn't run on a PS2 at the same quality as in Gamecube. Any game can run on any console if you cut it down enough.

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Quite right, though one would be hard-pressed to see much difference between Viewtiful Joe on the PS2. And speaking for Capcom RE didn't see a reduction in Polygons and actually saw more enemies but suffered from the lack of Gouraud shading and Transparent effects , but I think in Polygon terms nothing was cut .

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Also, isn't Decathlete that game where everyone is a 2D sprite except for the first two characters in an empty and flat stadium? I mean, you are so ready to dismiss other games when they sacrifice stuff yet this game seems to sacrifice even more to achieve it's resolution and frame rate.

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I seem to remember you saying the same in other topic . You might only go by YouTube vids , but no Decathlete isn't just 3D polygons only on the Characters . Yes, its true to say the Stadium track is flat , by you show me a Track and Field stadium that doesn't have a flat track :roll:. Looking over that the Stadium itself is drawn out of 3D polygons , so is various apparatus not least stuff like the Hurdles or the likes of Pole Volt and air Mattress . So no sorry its not just the on the Characters and all at 60 fps at 704x480 at all times . I know you'll hit back, but let me stop you there Winter Heat add in far more polygons and 3D effects and a 4 player mode too and yet still I'm sure runs at a better screen Res than almost any N64 Sports game would could care to mention (704x240)

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I'm not English , so sorry to crush a dream and a picture.

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I think he meant English as the language, not nationality.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

so much so I gather Tomonobu Itagaki holds in higher reguard than even the Arcade version and thats why Team Ninja choose to put the Saturn version in DOA Dead or Alive Ultimate.

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That was most likely lazyness/inconvenient to port the Model 2 original, unless the Saturn port has some serious gameplay improvements or something, because graphically it's inferior.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Quite right, though one would be hard-pressed to see much difference between Viewtiful Joe on the PS2. And speaking for Capcom RE didn't see a reduction in Polygons and actually saw more enemies but suffered from the lack of Gouraud shading and Transparent effects , but I think in Polygon terms nothing was cut .



I seem to remember you saying the same in other topic . You might only go by YouTube vids , but no Decathlete isn't just 3D polygons only on the Characters . Yes, its true to say the Stadium track is flat , by you show me a Track and Field stadium that doesn't have a flat track :roll:. Looking over that the Stadium itself is drawn out of 3D polygons , so is various apparatus not least stuff like the Hurdles or the likes of Pole Volt and air Mattress . So no sorry its not just the on the Characters and all at 60 fps at 704x480 at all times . I know you'll hit back, but let me stop you there Winter Heat add in far more polygons and 3D effects and a 4 player mode too and yet still I'm sure runs at a better screen Res than almost any N64 Sports game would could care to mention (704x240)

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Even the Dreamcast era International Track & Field 2000 uses sprites for bystanders. Even with all of the competitors sharing the exact same model, it still doesn't look nearly as nice or impressive as the 3.5 year old Decathlete (but still looks good). The animations in Sega's sports games was one of the strong features and the smooth framerate and sharp models really helps them shine. I don't know why the Saturn isn't allowed to have even a handful of games accepted as "nice looking" or impressive here.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Looks like and that's not a big deal its rank hypocrisy that more of deal. You know lets Prasie Mega Drive games running at a higher Screen Res than Snes games, but not for Saturn games Vs PS games. Lets knock Mode 7 as just a effect that adds nothing to gameplay, but lets praise Transparent effects (never knew Transparent effects altered Gameplay myself) and best of all lets dismiss Interviews that knock the Mega Drive only to post your own interviews and for added irony one from Capcom who I gather Barone rates has sh8t programmers . You couldn't make it up

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https://jovemnerd.com.br/wp-content/...ackie_chan.jpg

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I'm not English , so sorry to crush a dream and a picture.

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

I think he meant English as the language, not nationality.

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:lol:

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Originally Posted by BonusKun

About how much are they going for these days?

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I don't know but last time I checked they're being sold for $20-25 used in good condition.
When I bought them you could have a pair for less than $10.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Quite right, though one would be hard-pressed to see much difference between Viewtiful Joe on the PS2. And speaking for Capcom RE didn't see a reduction in Polygons and actually saw more enemies but suffered from the lack of Gouraud shading and Transparent effects , but I think in Polygon terms nothing was cut .

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There was also a reduction in texture and lighting quality. And the worst thing is that later re-releases and ports were based on the PS2 port afaik instead of the superior GC version.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

There was also a reduction in texture and lighting quality. And the worst thing is that later re-releases and ports were based on the PS2 port afaik instead of the superior GC version.

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The PS3 HD Version of Resident Evil 4 looked like ass, because of it being based on the PS2 version. I believe the GameCube version had multi-layer texture mapping, compared to 1 or 2 layers for the PS2 version. I also believe that the GC version might of had bump-mapping on the characters, while the PS2 version did not.

I remember when I tested GC's and PS2's versions of RE4 on emulators with polygon counting enabled. The GC version was rendering way more polygons. IIRC, things such as trees were simplified in the PS2 version.
Visually the PS2 version is ugly but the polygon counting gap was even bigger than visual observation would suggest.

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Originally Posted by Soulis

There was also a reduction in texture and lighting quality. And the worst thing is that later re-releases and ports were based on the PS2 port afaik instead of the superior GC version.

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Except the Wii Version. That version is basically the Gamecube version with Anamorphic Widescreen support, Motion Controls as an option, and the additional PS2 content.

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Originally Posted by Vludi

That was most likely lazyness/inconvenient to port the Model 2 original, unless the Saturn port has some serious gameplay improvements or something, because graphically it's inferior.

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No its because Tomonobu Itagaki holds the Saturn version in the highest regard. I would have thought give the Saturn issues with decent emu (at the time) that porting Model 2 code over would have been far easier for the Team and the XBox to run than getting a working Saturn emu on the XBox

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

The animations in Sega's sports games was one of the strong features and the smooth framerate and sharp models really helps them shine. I don't know why the Saturn isn't allowed to have even a handful of games accepted as "nice looking" or impressive here.

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Because Barone doesn't like the machine and his way or no way and of coruse games used 2D assets even on machines that made for 3D... Model 2 Step 2 SEGA Rally II had 2D sprites used for spectators and if you entered the code in the DC version of Sega Rally II to remove the 2D spectators you got a locked 60 fps .

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There was also a reduction in texture and lighting quality. And the worst thing is that later re-releases and ports were based on the PS2

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Textures you say ? like with Dead or Alive on the PS ?. That's looking over the Capcom interview of saying Cel shanding couldn't be done on the PS2 , I'm sure even Smilebit said the same too. Its a bit silly but that what interviews can do sometimes

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Because Barone doesn't like the machine

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I don't like your shitty attitude: you make stuff up, hype your preferences to no end and shits all over the rest, provide incorrect information about other systems just to hype the ones you like most, can't be barely reasonable in threads like this, is always butthurt about criticism towards games and systems of your preference; it's all personal and emotional to you, it's like trying to argue with a spoiled little kid.
Grow up.


Black_Tiger was also referring to the Decathlete criticism I think; something which I don't agree with since I think the game looks phenomenal, much better looking than anything similar released for consoles that gen IMO.

Your hypocrisy really knows no end . You hype up the Mega Drive no end and love to rubbish the Snes ; what system do like the most ?. You rubbish Capcom's efforts on the Mega Drive think you even called them sh8t programers and yet now post an interview with them to rubbish the Saturn , you rubbish Mode 7 as just an effect and now praise Transparencies and what are they, if not just effects in their selfs. I wouldn't say too much, but I even say its a massive drawback of the Saturn and its lack of Hardware support for 3D Transparent effects, how the Saturn would have serious issues with games like Soul Edge, Metal Gear Solid and how the PS out and out 3D beats the Saturns

Saturn fan I may be but I'm well aware of the systems shortcomings (something which you are not so ready to accept with the Mega Drive short comings ) . Like I was always said all system had good and minus points and in actual fact I'm a big fan of the PS its the PS2 that I think its a hump of junk and a total letdown system for Gfx if you must now and for me the XBox was just such a better system and console

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Your hypocrisy really knows no end . You hype up the Mega Drive no end and love to rubbish the Snes ; what system do like the most ?. You rubbish Capcom's efforts on the Mega Drive think you even called them sh8t programers and yet now post an interview with them to rubbish the Saturn , you rubbish Mode 7 as just an effect and now praise Transparencies and what are they, if not just effects in their selfs. I wouldn't say too much, but I even say its a massive drawback of the Saturn and its lack of Hardware support for 3D Transparent effects, how the Saturn would have serious issues with games like Soul Edge, Metal Gear Solid and how the PS out and out 3D beats the Saturns

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This is a perfect example of your ridiculous attitude.
I corrected some bs claims you made regarding Mega Drive games in another thread and now you seem to be forever butthurt about it. As you clearly don't have any solid arguments, you have to resort to personal attacks.
Drop it.

By the way, this thread is not about Mega Drive vs SNES.

PS1, off course, because it had 6 Degrees of Freedom awesomeness like Descent and Forsaken, when the genre was represented even on the N64, but not the Saturn. Suffice to say that, when a cube based portal rendering game like Descent wasn't on a console with quad design, the Saturn might as well have been unworthy of selling more copies to people like me.

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Originally Posted by Barone

This is a perfect example of your ridiculous attitude.

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Yeah ok . So no more Mode 7 digs its just an effect no more going on about Mega Drive games running at a Higer Res , pointing out the Mega Drive shortcomings, actually praising some Snes games and GFX/Sound . I look forward to it ;)

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Originally Posted by Valkeerie

PS1, off course, because it had 6 Degrees of Freedom awesomeness like Descent and Forsaken, when the genre was represented even on the N64, but not the Saturn. Suffice to say that, when a cube based portal rendering game like Descent wasn't on a console with quad design, the Saturn might as well have been unworthy of selling more copies to people like me.

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I gather Stellar Assault had 6 Degrees of Freedom awesomeness and while not quite as good games like Blam Machinehead, and Firestrike, Darklight Conflict did much the same. Hell even the Quad based 3DO could join in the fun with the likes of Wing Commander III, Starfighter.

You do not know what 6DoF is.

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Originally Posted by Valkeerie

You do not know what 6DoF is.

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Have you played Star Fighter or Stellar Assault ? You can fly up and down left or right and in complete 360 if you must

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

No its because Tomonobu Itagaki holds the Saturn version in the highest regard. I would have thought give the Saturn issues with decent emu (at the time) that porting Model 2 code over would have been far easier for the Team and the XBox to run than getting a working Saturn emu on the XBox

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But even if that was the case why would he has a graphically inferior port in a higher regard, just doesn't make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Vludi

But even if that was the case why would he has a graphically inferior port in a higher regard, just doesn't make sense to me.

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Because I believe inthe interview he said he put his heart and soul into the Saturn version and they worked hard to better AM#2 own Saturn effort and the team were proud of thier efforts and it also marked Team Ninja 1st game (well to bare their logo)

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Model 2 Step 2 SEGA Rally II had 2D sprites used for spectators and if you entered the code in the DC version of Sega Rally II to remove the 2D spectators you got a locked 60 fps

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Except, i was not talking about spectators. Try to be reasonable, spectators went 3D a few generations later. So i'm not talking about that. I'm not talking about 2D trees either. Most games during 5th gen had 2D trees.

I'm talking about having 6-7 characters running in a stadium and only two of them being 3D while the others are sprites. It makes the game look weird, as if you are racing along with mannequins or something. Winter heat looks much better with more 3D stuff on screen so since that exists i don't see why you would bring up Decathlete in a discussion about graphical capabilities.

You asked for 60fps games, i could bring up F-Zero X for running at 60fps with 29 AI 3D opponents on screen at once, each one doing it's own thing, with no slowdowns even when several opponents crash going crazy with physics and explosions, etc. But even though i personally like how the game looks, i understand that several visual sacrifices had to be done for it to run like this, just like how it happens with 60fps games in general.

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Originally Posted by Valkeerie

PS1, off course, because it had 6 Degrees of Freedom awesomeness like Descent and Forsaken

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Aha, now I know the name for the type of games that invariably give me motion sickness! :D I literally couldn't play Forsaken for more than 5 minutes before starting to feel queasy and saying "Nope, this won't end well."

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Originally Posted by Soulis

Except, i was not talking about spectators. Try to be reasonable, spectators went 3D a few generations later.

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Sorry I am being real. Lke 'I said' 2D assets were used in games long after the 32Bit generation so why you or Barone choose to have a dig at the Saturn for using 2D effects to help with 3D graphics workload I don't know.

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I'm talking about having 6-7 characters running in a stadium and only two of them being 3D while the others are sprites.

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Well I can name quite a few Saturn games that do that, not in full High Res mode granted but then again how many N64 games run at full high mode and had more than 6-7 polygon characters, can only think of 1 or 2 than even run in semi . But if you want 3D polygons characters semi High res mode with 3D backgrounds. Then may I suggest you play World Series Base Ball 98 on the Saturn, World League Soccer 98 on the Saturn or ,NBA Action 98, J league Go Go Goal and then of course you also have the likes of WWS 98 and NHL All Star Hockey 98 (ok they don't run in semi high res)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ffNHZajB9o&t=89s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhIYOoMXuVw&list=PL279CF49D06E01994&index= 42

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RL_G-mqmog&t=287s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAmuLCEEjJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jreF5L5jvlQ&t=59s

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You asked for 60fps games, i could bring up F-Zero X for running at 60fps with 29 AI 3D opponents on screen at once

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Yeah fair point, but what about F-Zero X Backrounds that are almost completely flat and hardly use any 3D effects at all and look baron (and you have the bare face to knock Decathlete so called flat background ) , what about the low screen Res ? . Street Racer on the Saturn not only runs at 60 fps , in semi High res mode features reflection effects , but also add in 8 players (ok its uses 2D sprites for the Karts) and I can't think of one PS or N64 racer that features 40 fully polygon cars on the same track and with 3D bacrounds and runs at 30 fps like Daytona USA CE.

And lets face there were more 60 fps games on the Saturn and PS than the N64 and more games than run in High res mode too

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Originally Posted by Soulis

You asked for 60fps games, i could bring up F-Zero X for running at 60fps with 29 AI 3D opponents on screen at once, each one doing it's own thing, with no slowdowns even when several opponents crash going crazy with physics and explosions, etc. But even though i personally like how the game looks, i understand that several visual sacrifices had to be done for it to run like this, just like how it happens with 60fps games in general.

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This is something that Nintendo is generally good at doing. They're pretty good at using an art style that plays into the graphical sacrifices they make for performance to get a game that runs well and still looks good even if it's not doing anything that impressive graphically. Sega on the other hand was usually tasked with porting a game from more powerful arcade hardware and trying to get it to look as close as possible, which is harder to do I'd imagine. When Sega had similar opportunities though you did see great looking Saturn games that still ran well.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Well I can name quite a few Saturn games that do that, not in full High Res mode granted but then again how many N64 games run at full high mode and had more than 6-7 polygon characters, can only think of 1 or 2 than even run in semi

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NFL Quarterback Club 98. All 22 players were 3D, you can see them all together at once and the game runs in high-res without expansion pack and without frame rate problems.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcnqGbLJQ84

But whatever, most 3D sports titles had 3D players, that wasn't all that special. It's just Decathlete that had to sacrifice poly counts for high-res and 60fps.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

and I can't think of one PS or N64 racer that features 40 fully polygon cars on the same track and with 3D bacrounds and runs at 30 fps like Daytona USA CE.

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Can you see all 40 cars at once?

Granted, Daytone CE is one of the more impressive looking Saturn games.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

And lets face there were more 60 fps games on the Saturn and PS than the N64 and more games than run in High res mode too

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Sure.

But that wasn't a console limitation or feature. That's a developer's decision. Sega was more coin-op oriented so they had 60fps at higher priority than the others. With the N64 most developers choose to push the console as hard as they could, sometimes beyound system's capabilities or developer's abilities, which is why you got more games with frame rate problems in comparison.

But in any case, 60fps comes with sacrifices, especially with 5th gen consoles. Sometimes they are heavy, other times they more subtle but they were always there.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

This is something that Nintendo is generally good at doing. They're pretty good at using an art style that plays into the graphical sacrifices they make for performance to get a game that runs well and still looks good even if it's not doing anything that impressive graphically. Sega on the other hand was usually tasked with porting a game from more powerful arcade hardware and trying to get it to look as close as possible, which is harder to do I'd imagine. When Sega had similar opportunities though you did see great looking Saturn games that still ran well.

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Agreed. Although, IMO, if i had to choose who pushed the console the most i would pick Lobotomy. Both Quake 1 and Duke Nukem 3D ports were amazing to me. Especially Duke Nukem which even had a better engine than the original. Exhumed/Powerslave was also pretty awesome and the Saturn version was the best, no?

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Originally Posted by Soulis

But whatever, most 3D sports titles had 3D players, that wasn't all that special. It's just Decathlete that had to sacrifice poly counts for high-res and 60fps.

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Do contemporary games on the same genre really have that many more polygonal objects than Decathlete?. Is it really sacrificing that many polygonal stuff to achieve the high-res 60fps, compared to similar games from its time?.

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

Do contemporary games on the same genre really have that many more polygonal objects than Decathlete?. Is it really sacrificing that many polygonal stuff to achieve the high-res 60fps, compared to similar games from its time?.

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He's comparing football games to Decathlete instead of track and field games.

I believe that most track and field games for PSX/N64 have tiny (Canadian small town high school) sized arenas to save on polygons. Decathlete's "cheap mode 7" track/field seems much larger and open, like a major track & field venue.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I gather Stellar Assault had 6 Degrees of Freedom awesomeness and while not quite as good games like Blam Machinehead, and Firestrike, Darklight Conflict did much the same. Hell even the Quad based 3DO could join in the fun with the likes of Wing Commander III, Starfighter.

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Stellar Assault SS for the win!

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

Do contemporary games on the same genre really have that many more polygonal objects than Decathlete?. Is it really sacrificing that many polygonal stuff to achieve the high-res 60fps, compared to similar games from its time?.

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I remember Track & Field games being much more busy visually. All these "eventful" type of sports games always strike me of being visual busy. Meaning all athletes are 3D and there are some 3D objects around, not just a flat stadium. Decathlete just feels so empty and uneventful to me. It might have better animation and frame rate but it just doesn't have the atmosphere i'd like because of the way it looks.

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

He's comparing football games to Decathlete instead of track and field games.

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No. I compared that to the other sports titles TA mentioned. I even quoted him because he asked to show him a high res game with more than a few polygonal characters...

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Originally Posted by Soulis

NFL Quarterback Club 98. All 22 players were 3D, you can see them all together at once and the game runs in high-res without expansion pack and without frame rate problems.

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I remember you posting that before and I'll say again I'm not making out the N64 couldn't do 3D sports games or use full polygons models or that it couldn't do suff that the PS or Saturn would have a huge trouble trying to emu . I'm a huge fan of the N64, but now and again the Saturn was able to some special stuff that you seem all too ready to dismiss out of hand and not give credit for

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It's just Decathlete that had to sacrifice poly counts for high-res and 60fps

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All games will sacrifice stuff , hell even today XBox One sacrifice either 1080p output or 60 fps or somtimes both . I don't think you're being at all fair with Decathlete its runs in the systems highest res and runs at a constant and rock solid 60 fps and is displaying stunning graphics and high quality detaled textured mapping.

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Can you see all 40 cars at once?

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No and that's why I said 40 cars on all the same track . Its an impressive achievement more so with a full screen display and 30 fps , shame the AI and handling wasn't a patch on AM#2 Saturn Daytona

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But that wasn't a console limitation or feature. That's a developer's decision.

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Of coruse it is, in a ideal world all developers would push for 60 fps at the system highest screen Res , but then you have factor in polygons effects and what not . It was great days when each system had custom silicon and so each machine could do stuff the rival system would have issues with . PS and Saturn could justr forget about a game like Mario 64 (looking as good) but then the N64 would have issues making a game like VF II or the Saturn have issues with MGS or Vagrant Story .

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

Maybe my point wasn't clear. I mean that 704x480i60 is the exact same resolution as 704x240p60. The only way it can be true 480 is if every frame is double locked in sync, but that will never give you 60fps, only 30fps. So one of the games mentioned on the PS1 was 640x240p60. And a saturn game touted as 704x480i60. The only difference, is horizontal resolution of 64 pixels between the two. And the 240p version has the added benefit of no field effect. So I would say 640x240p60 is superior than 704x480i60.

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704x480i60 is only the same as 704x240p60 in the amount of unique pixels rendered per second.

In 480i mode you have twice the screen size, you draw a more detailed picture, even if you only display every even or every odd line of it each frame. The interlacing is more or less hidden by the crt phosphor afterglow (this can range from unnoticeable to very annoying depending on the TV).

Oh, and one more thing. The PS1 renders a 640x480 image as 640x480 in the framebuffer, and then outputs it interlaced. The Saturn meanwhile actually skips over every other line while rendering (it physically renders 640x240). So the Playstation is slower and has much less texture space in that mode... while the Saturn can't do any shading.

Saturn can actually do 480p (technically, anyway).