No Shinobi Game between Genesis and Saturn, why?

Virtual On was a hit in Arcades for Sega, it only makes sense they'd port it to the Saturn. It wasn't a franchise shift as you say, it was Sega porting their new hit Model 1 and Model 2 Arcade games to the Saturn, just as they ported their hit System-16 games to the Genesis. Yeah, Sonic Team may have put Sonic on the Backburner to try things like NiGHTS and Burning Rangers, it doesn't mean they forgot about him. It's come out numerous times that they were in fact working with ideas for Sonic on the Saturn and were in fact making Sonic Adventure during a great deal of the Saturn's Life. The Saturn was simply abandoned for the Dreamcast before they could actually release any of it.

It wasn't Sega doing a Franchise Shift, it was Sega just doing what they always did. And Sega didn't kill a lot of these franchises either, the genres of a lot of them were simply dying down at the time. There was no Streets of Rage on the Saturn. Is that entirely Sega's fault? Not really considering the beat'em up genre was dying down around that time. If you are going to call Sega stupid and doing some crazy franchise shift for not making new Golden Axe and Streets of Rage titles, why aren't you getting mad at Capcom and Konami for not doing more Final Fights and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle games? A lot of Genesis fans seem to hate the Saturn because they see it as the reason their favorite franchises went on a long hiatus or flat out died. But in many cases it's simply that those style of games had run their course.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

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If you are going to call Sega stupid

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I didn't.

The fact still remains, that a lot of these games weren't a victim of some kind of Franchise shift, their Genre's and styles had simply run their course.

The ones that hadn't run their course were simply victims of either development hell or bad timing.

But they aren't different genres. Phantasy Star especially isn't much removed from PDS, a single player offline affair put up against the Final Fantasies on Playstation. Nights does play somewhat like Sonic yet more narrowly (arcadelike): the only exploration to be had is bootlessly wandering the dreamworld floor. VO is still a fighting game like EC, except polygonal; anyway 2D fighting games had not run their course by any means--sometime in the 6th gen, perhaps, though MvsC fans will tell you otherwise, but not in the 5th where you can see all those successful Capcom and SNK ports along with the birth of Guilty Gear. And SH/Afterburner's genre was a solid decade old when Panzer Dragoon came out; the 3D changes are important but it's still very much the same genre. And Outrun was a modern style racer when it came out, only using scaling because polygons weren't feasible: it's not overhead or sidewise, it's chase view which is what's most important, one can see the road expanding ahead of oneself; on Saturn it would've got an optional cockpit/1stP view.
Ecco I mentioned presuming that on the Saturn he would've had something 3D, not a continuation of the Genesis style.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Virtual On was a hit in Arcades for Sega, it only makes sense they'd port it to the Saturn. It wasn't a franchise shift as you say, it was Sega porting their new hit Model 1 and Model 2 Arcade games to the Saturn, just as they ported their hit System-16 games to the Genesis. Yeah, Sonic Team may have put Sonic on the Backburner to try things like NiGHTS and Burning Rangers, it doesn't mean they forgot about him. It's come out numerous times that they were in fact working with ideas for Sonic on the Saturn and were in fact making Sonic Adventure during a great deal of the Saturn's Life. The Saturn was simply abandoned for the Dreamcast before they could actually release any of it.

It wasn't Sega doing a Franchise Shift, it was Sega just doing what they always did. And Sega didn't kill a lot of these franchises either, the genres of a lot of them were simply dying down at the time. There was no Streets of Rage on the Saturn. Is that entirely Sega's fault? Not really considering the beat'em up genre was dying down around that time. If you are going to call Sega stupid and doing some crazy franchise shift for not making new Golden Axe and Streets of Rage titles, why aren't you getting mad at Capcom and Konami for not doing more Final Fights and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle games? A lot of Genesis fans seem to hate the Saturn because they see it as the reason their favorite franchises went on a long hiatus or flat out died. But in many cases it's simply that those style of games had run their course.

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TMNT was pretty much dead in the mid 90's and Capcom was still making beat em ups well into 1999.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

But they aren't different genres. Phantasy Star especially isn't much removed from PDS, a single player offline affair put up against the Final Fantasies on Playstation. Nights does play somewhat like Sonic yet more narrowly (arcadelike): the only exploration to be had is bootlessly wandering the dreamworld floor. VO is still a fighting game like EC, except polygonal; anyway 2D fighting games had not run their course by any means--sometime in the 6th gen, perhaps, though MvsC fans will tell you otherwise, but not in the 5th where you can see all those successful Capcom and SNK ports along with the birth of Guilty Gear. And SH/Afterburner's genre was a solid decade old when Panzer Dragoon came out; the 3D changes are important but it's still very much the same genre. And Outrun was a modern style racer when it came out, only using scaling because polygons weren't feasible: it's not overhead or sidewise, it's chase view which is what's most important, one can see the road expanding ahead of oneself; on Saturn it would've got an optional cockpit/1stP view.
Ecco I mentioned presuming that on the Saturn he would've had something 3D, not a continuation of the Genesis style.

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Phantasy Star is completely different from Panzer Dragoon Saga. The development teams aren't even related. You're entire basis is on the fact that they are both single player RPGs. If that's the case then we can say Phantasy Star was franchise shifted into just about every single player RPG on the Saturn. It wasn't a franchise shift that caused us to not see a Phantasy Star 5. It was the fact that Phantasy Star IV pretty much tied up all loose ends and ended the story, leaving nothing to go off of for a Sequel. Sega obviously wasn't able to come up with a good way to create a story that was feasible. Which is probably what also lead to the shift to an online action RPG that was less Story driven.

Panzer Dragoon I see more as a response to Starfox, as that's what it has far more similarities to. I highly doubt the Saturn could have done a Space Harrier or After Burner game justice if it was done with Polygons. It wouldn't have been able to give the same sense of speed and graphical quality as the originals. So it's not Sega shifting those older successful Franchises into Panzer Dragoon, it was them doing something that fit better with the Saturn's strengths instead.

Outrun would have had a similar problem. In the Arcade Outrun gives an insane sense of speed. A 3D Saturn Outrun wouldn't have been able to provide that. It's what happened with Hang-On GP. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if Hang-On GP was a sort of test to see if those games could transition well on the Saturn.

These games weren't shifted into other franchises, they were either ended due to their genres being on the way out, or were put on a hiatus simply because the hardware wasn't there yet to do them justice in 3D. Just because a development team takes a break from a franchise doesn't mean that franchise was shifted into another.

And I didn't say 2D Fighters were on their way out. Eternal Champions falls into the category of Development Hell and bad timing along with Sonic. And Virtual On has nothing in common with Eternal Champions either. Just because both involve fighting doesn't mean Eternal Champions was a victim of a franchise shift and was shifted into Virtual on.

And as for Capcom still making Beat'em Ups up to 1999. Notice how most of those were either quick ports from older Arcade games or simply never left Japan? The side-scrolling Beat'em Up was pretty much dead by the time the Saturn hit the scene.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

You're entire basis is on the fact that they are both single player RPGs.

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Yes, that's the genre definition.

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If that's the case then we can say Phantasy Star was franchise shifted into just about every single player RPG on the Saturn.

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Sega didn't create just about every single player RPG on the Saturn. Though they did continue the Shining series whilst adding Riglord Saga and Sakura so it seems they were committed to SRPGs.

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It wasn't a franchise shift that caused us to not see a Phantasy Star 5. It was the fact that Phantasy Star IV pretty much tied up all loose ends and ended the story, leaving nothing to go off of for a Sequel. Sega obviously wasn't able to come up with a good way to create a story that was feasible. Which is probably what also lead to the shift to an online action RPG that was less Story driven.

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An RPG less story-driven than Phantasy Star? Is that possible? More likely is that they had something like PSO planned for the Saturn but it just wasn't feasible in terms of draw distance (v PDS but imagine it with mazes) or online marketability.

Phantasy Star Online is the obviously evolution of Sonic Teams 32-bit efforts. You can see the progression from NiGHTS to Burning Rangers to Phantasy Star Online.

Phantasy Star 1 and 4 are quite story driven if you ask me. The story plays quite a big part in those games. However if your entire perception of the classic Phantasy Star games is based soley on Phantasy Star 2 I could see how you could make the assumption that the series wasn't story driven.

And if you really want to know what the people who worked on Phantasy Star really were doing during the Saturn era, it was Magic Knight Rayearth, not Panzer Dragoon Saga. Single Player Phantasy Star was simply brought to an end with Phantasy Star IV since they pretty much ended the story and tied up the loose ends. There wasn't enough to make a single player story driven RPG off of. The series wasn't franchise shifted, it was just put on hiatus until they could come up with something and had a system that could handle what they wanted to do.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Phantasy Star 1 and 4 are quite story driven if you ask me. The story plays quite a big part in those games. However if your entire perception of the classic Phantasy Star games is based soley on Phantasy Star 2 I could see how you could make the assumption that the series wasn't story driven.

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Suikoden is story driven. FF7, 8, and 9 are story driven. Even Shining Force and Feda Remake are story driven. PSIII has chapter summary style interludes of summary, the chapters being long sections of worldmap and dungeon combat. PSIV has epigraphic scrips of story. Phantasy Star as a whole has a majestic theme and well realised atmosphere (+++ because these matter most) but is unmistakably an RPG created by an arcade company.

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And if you really want to know what the people who worked on Phantasy Star really were doing during the Saturn era

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I don't. I already told you that so direct a metamorphosis was not my point.

Then why imply that with your words. By saying Phantasy Star was franchise shifted into PDS, you are pretty much implying that PDS is some kind of spiritual successor to Phantasy Star, which it's not.

Phantasy Star 1 and 4 are definitely story driven though. But for sake of argument lets agree that Phantasy Star isn't a very story driven RPG. Do you honestly expect a Single Player Phantasy Star done like a typical JRPG of the time would have done well against FF7 or other RPGs coming out at the time? It would have probably failed miserably.

Phantasy Star wasn't franchise shifted, it was just put on hiatus until they had something they could work with.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Then why imply that with your words. By saying Phantasy Star was franchise shifted into PDS, you are pretty much implying that PDS is some kind of spiritual successor to Phantasy Star, which it's not.

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You have a passion for misinterpretation. I never said any of those games from the 16 bit gen was shifted into the 32 bit gen, what I said was that's where Sega's franchises within each genre shifted. This might've at first been confusing but I've restated it twice already, and the way it applies to Shinobi is not that Shinobi would've become some other ninja--some cyborg, Afron Ninja, whatever--but that Sega would've made another ninja franchise if some of their franchises weren't discarded in their pursuit of new. The point of dispute would be whether ninja games are a genre--perhaps a switch to 3D like Tenchu's would've sufficed--yet I do think them a different genre and a throwback one at that to the more sophisticated 2D scrolling games of the NES era (most 2Dss games on 16 bit were hop and bop or if at all complex very slow) ie with all the climbing, wall-jumping, flips, and sprinting involved. Legions is actually rather crude in these respects due to its crude level design.

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Do you honestly expect a Single Player Phantasy Star done like a typical JRPG of the time would have done well against FF7 or other RPGs coming out at the time?

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Yes considering very few Saturn owners also owned a Playstation. And I have no doubt it would have matched PDS's sales--actually as a traditional RPG it would've smoked them.

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Phantasy Star wasn't franchise shifted, it was just put on hiatus until they had something they could work with.

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I just suggested this.

See, I don't think a new Single Player Phantasy Star would have done as well. It would have been destroyed by the competition on other systems as well as what was being put out from other developers on the Saturn. Sega didn't have the resources to turn Phantasy Star into a single player epic RPG that could have competed with Grandia, Final Fantasy VII and other hit RPGs of the generation. If Phantasy Star IV's ending wasn't so final there might have been something to go off of, but as it was they would have had to create something completely new, which at that point why not try a new franchise anyways. That way you don't have the possibility of it not living up to fans of the previous games expectations.