True but the comparison was Saturn vs. Nintendo 64 variety, it wasn't about exclusivity.
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True but the comparison was Saturn vs. Nintendo 64 variety, it wasn't about exclusivity.
That's a beaten horse. We've already been through that with the 3rd party support for the Gamecube vs. N64. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Then I'm not the only one who thought that?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMatthews
To Neo: Shouldn't it be though, exclusives is what makes a system better or worse then another, the other games are just fillers, unless for some reason the other versions are so bad, it might as well be exclusive.
If It's between N64, and Saturn, that's a hard choice, Goldeneye is just godly, F-Zero is amazing, and such. However with that said, the Saturn probally has a better quantity vs Quality ratio, so based on pure statistics(not counting personal opinion), I would have to say the Saturn has at alittle bit better library.
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Originally Posted by MrMatthews
Beautiful. Just beautiful. MrMatthews and Zoltor think alike.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Zoltor
Saturn racing games like Out Run, Daytona USA CE, and a couple others provide analoge acceleration and breaking, that right there outclasses N64 in some regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
Daytona CE also provides for system link 2-screen play. I'll take that over poor frame rate split screen of N64.
For vehicular combat Saturn has VATLVA which is sorely overlooked and underrated. And Scorcher might count in that category too.
And for platformers you must be joking? Saturn has Liquid Kids, Astal, Super Tempo, Silhouette Mirage, Shin Shinobi Den, Mickey & Donald collection, Rockman 8, Keio Yugekitai, and a bunch more ...again completely outclassing N64
And for action adventure, how about Dark Savior, Legend of Oasis, and Magic Knight Rayearth. I'd take those over any of the ones you listed for N64.
Most of these came out when the Saturn was dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
Can you people stop arguing the merits of tosh consoles and read a good book or something?
The Lord of the Rings trilogy is a good place to start.
Yeah, but analog acceleration is in so few games that it barely matters...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zz Badnusty
For vehicular combat, it's single player only, but Mass Destruction on the Saturn is pretty fun, and looks nice for the system too. There's also CrimeWave, I'm not sure how exactly that should be classified, but even though it's flawed (framerate, difficulty level) it can be a fun game... But yeah, despite that, the N64 has more good vehicular combat games for sure.Quote:
For vehicular combat Saturn has VATLVA which is sorely overlooked and underrated. And Scorcher might count in that category too.
And for platformers you must be joking? Saturn has Liquid Kids, Astal, Super Tempo, Silhouette Mirage, Shin Shinobi Den, Mickey & Donald collection, Rockman 8, Keio Yugekitai, and a bunch more ...again completely outclassing N64
And for action adventure, how about Dark Savior, Legend of Oasis, and Magic Knight Rayearth. I'd take those over any of the ones you listed for N64.
For platformers, the Saturn has a small number of good 2d platformers, sure, but very few 3D platformers -- there's Croc, the two Bug! games if you count them, like one Japan-only game, and that's about it. And even for 2d platformers, the Saturn is quite seriously outclassed by the Playstation in both quantity and quality, I think. Astal looks pretty, but it's kind of boring... the only way to save the S aturn in (2d/2.5d) platformers is if you consider NiGHTS one, because that game is great. Of course the N64 has even fewer 2d/2.5d platformers, but at least it has a lot of 3d platformers, many of which are pretty good. I would say that the N64 is better overall for platformers than the Saturn, yeah, definitely.
For action adventure, the Saturn has nothing that can compare to OoT, obviously. Those three games are fun, but they're no Zelda.
Oh, should Willy Wombat for Saturn (Japan-only, English-language) be considered an isometric 3d platformer, or some kind of action-rpg? Either way, it is solid, though it would benefit from analog controls. The same goes for the 3d-movement portions of Bug... that's really a place where the N64 shows its strength, everything can have analog controls, and 3d games are better because of it. (The same is true for the N64 versus 1995-1997 PS1 games that don't have analog, and a good number of them from that era don't.)
Also, Scorcher's good, but it's a futuristic racing game. Now that's something the N64 certainly has, and more of than Saturn.
I agree, both systems have libraries that are very good in certain genres, but very weak in many others. They are pretty significantly alike in that respect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
I actually like the Bug! games quite a bit, but yeah, as I said above, apart from those and Croc, the Saturn has essentially nothing. It's certainly a big hole. And yeah, as much as I like Bug! and Croc (and I do, both games are pretty good!), they probably aren't quite as good as Paper Mario and Ogre Battle 64.Quote:
Saturn is absolutely appalling for 3D platform games, there's next to nothing worth playing in that genre on the system at all, Saturn 3D platforming area is just as bad as the N64's RPGs, in fact its arguably worse, as I'd take the likes of Paper Mario, and Ogre Battle 64 over "decent" games like Croc, and Bug any day of the week.
I do like some of those "you have 3-5 tracks and no circuit mode, have fun" racers, myself -- Daytona's a great game -- but yes, I do think that having circuit modes and more tracks is important as well, and certainly think that N64 racing games benefit from mostly having that stuff. I just wouldn't be quite as harsh on those Saturn racers as you are, I do like Daytona and Sega Rally.Quote:
Saturn is also pretty bad for racing games, the very idea of sitting there playing the same handful of tracks in Sega Rally, and Daytona for 3 years odd makes me shudder, and Need For Speed was only notable early on and was superceded extremely quickly, offering nothing worth seeing within a year of release not available in every other 3D racer out there. The Saturn racing genre has no variety, the few Kart racers are uncompetitive, there's nothing like Wave Race, there's barely any futuristic racers at all outside of the Wipeout ports, there's no 4-player features, there are no long championship modes, and there's no driving sims of merit. its library is just a handful of short arcade racers. Saturn racing genre is just as bad as the N64 fighting genre, a couple of great games, a handful of alright games, and a whole bunch of really mediocre, and bad games.
I do find it unfortunate that Sega failed to bring over several of their major 1996-1997 arcade racing games to the Saturn, though given that, as you say, the Saturn was lacking in racing games after 1995, particularly from Sega itself. I mean, in 1995 they had Daytona and Sega Rally and Cyber Speedway and Hang-On GP, and Time Warner's version of Virtua Racing too, and one other Japan-only title, but after that what was there? From 1996-1997, all there was was Outrun (Japan only), Sonic R, Sega Touring Car Championship, Steep Slope Sliders, Manx TT, and two more versions of Daytona (improvements, yes, but not fully new titles, and of course only one of those two versions released in each region). In 1998, the only racing game released by Sega was the Japan-only port of Power Drift. Basically, they started off very strong, but faded fast. Meanwhile, arcade games like Wave Rally, Motor Raid, and several others didn't get home ports. Now Wave Rally wasn't that great, I think (far from Wave Race, that's for sure...), but Motor Raid's really good.
Of course, Nintendo only had seven total first and second party racing games that gen, but still, at least all seven are very, very good games.
And then, Sega did the same thing again the next gen as some of their biggest racing games of the late '90s, Daytona 2 and Scud Race didn't get home ports while the Dreamcast got yet another version of Daytona (good game, but it WAS Daytona again), a subpar indycar game, Sega GT (not exactly as popular as Gran Turismo), and a few other racing games that were better (F355 Challenge, 18 Wheeler, and of course the two Crazy Taxi games if you count them)... but yeah, it's kind of odd that a bunch of their best games were left off of the home consoles.
That's for sure, yeah. Oh, and Tomb Raider does count, and was good for 1996 I guess (I didn't like it at the time, but in retrospect), but unfortunately that didn't help the Saturn much, because most people played it on PC or Playstation...Quote:
Saturn has no action adventure games even remotely comparable to the likes of Soul Reaver, and Ocarina/Majora, there are no huge, seamlessly joining worlds to explore and see in Saturn action games, Tomb Raider comes close (though is not in the same league at either of those two games in quality or ambition), but its all separate levels, and areas. If you want to get anything like that you have to go back to old 16-bit style 2D, and isometric games, and its just not the same at all.
Like 3d platformers, I think the problem is as was said, those genres didn't get really popular until 1997, 1998, or later, after the Saturn was already steeply in decline.Quote:
Heck even the 3rd person action genre is barely supported, with the likes of Burning Rangers being the biggest notable, Amok was alright, where are the Syphon Filter's? the Winbacks?, the MDKs? the Jet Force Gemini's? are there even any good vehicular combat games? where are the Vigilante 8s? the Battletanx's?, the Road Trips?
So yeah, the Saturn has absolutely no stealth games. Everyone else had them, but nothing on Saturn, because the genre didn't get popular until 1998 (MGS, Tenchu, and Thief all released in 1998, after all.)
Indeed, they do compliment eachother pretty well. The libraries are so different that they only overlap in pieces, and each has large areas of its library the other system can't compare with.Quote:
Saturn is like the polar opposite of the N64 in a lot of ways, awesome fighting games but hardly any good racing games, respectable numbers of RPGs but crap all platformers, an emphasis on 2D games instead of 3D games etc.
The PS1 was the system with the most variety, I can at least agree with that.Quote:
I'm afraid the only console with all areas sewn up that generation was clearly the PS1, doesn't mean it was "obviously" the best, but it does mean that it had something great to offer everyone.
No the N64 was dire for RPG in every scene of the word . Saturn while not the best for totally lacking in 3D platform games did have some ok-one's.Quote:
Saturn is absolutely appalling for 3D platform games, there's next to nothing worth playing in that genre on the system at all, Saturn 3D platforming area is just as bad as the N64's RPGs, in fact its arguably worse, as I'd take the likes of Paper Mario, and Ogre Battle 64 over "decent" games like Croc, and Bug any day of the week.
There's some very good racers on the Saturn but some were Japanese only but like King The Spirits 97 , Drift King 97 (which at the time looked amazing) . There are just as many futuristic racers on the Saturn as the N64 but that depends on how you view quality. Some people 'may' like the likes of Gran Chaser, Hi-Octane others like me will think they're shit but at least Scorcher was nice and tbh I though the Multi player in Wiperout 64 was weak and the Saturn and PS versions were just a little better and having a mono soundtrack for Wipeout 64 was just a complete and utter joke and a insult to WipeoutQuote:
Saturn is also pretty bad for racing games, the very idea of sitting there playing the same handful of tracks in Sega Rally, and Daytona for 3 years odd makes me shudder, and Need For Speed was only notable early on and was superceded extremely quickly, offering nothing worth seeing within a year of release not available in every other 3D racer out there. The Saturn racing genre has no variety, the few Kart racers are uncompetitive, there's nothing like Wave Race, there's barely any futuristic racers at all outside of the Wipeout ports, there's no 4-player features, there are no long championship modes, and there's no driving sims of merit. its library is just a handful of short arcade racers. Saturn racing genre is just as bad as the N64 fighting genre, a couple of great games, a handful of alright games, and a whole bunch of really mediocre, and bad games.
I do love your utter hypocrisy when it comes to Wave Race 64 . Yeah its ok for you to go on about that game , a early title and the only good water based racer on the system - but GOD forbid should anyone go on about SEGA Rally it's self a pretty early title and the only decent Rally game on the system; Which leads to me point, doesn't matter the number its always about the quality and in those terms Wave Race 64 and Rally never age or have been bettered imo.
I'm sorry I thought Dark Saviour was utterly brilliant myself did enjoy Legend of Oasis too and if you want to play that really sad and pathetic game, Where was the N64 RPG epic to that of Saga or Grandia, where was the N64 answer to Bomberman on the Saturn, What about horror games like Resident Evil, Deep Fear , Enemy Zero I can't think of one on the N64 , I can't think of any good Mech games on the N64 , but can name a number on the Saturn, Can't think on any Gun games on the N64, hardly any Point and Click games on the N64, or any real AAA 2D and 3D fighting games, much less Traditional shooters or pinball games and there's only one real good 3D shooter on the System too, but hey it's ok to go on about Star Fox 64 another game that came out pretty early in the system life is about the only good game in its genre on the system, but again lets not go on about Rally please , because the thought of playing a early game years after the system ships, fill ones with dread .Quote:
aturn has no action adventure games even remotely comparable to the likes of Soul Reaver, and Ocarina/Majora, there are no huge, seamlessly joining worlds to explore and see in Saturn action games, Tomb Raider comes close (though is not in the same league at either of those two games in quality or ambition), but its all separate levels, and areas. If you want to get anything like that you have to go back to old 16-bit style 2D, and isometric games, and its just not the same at all.
I'm getting bored of your piss poor wind up Saturn posts
@A Black Falcon, not sure if I misunderstood you, and i know this single instance doesn't over rule all the multiplayer vehiculat combat games on N64, but VATLVA is 6 player arena RC car combat (ps, I hate typing all caps, but that is the game's name)
And since I feel the games deserve more exposure I should also mention it is the prequel to Car Battler Joe, but a much more involved and intense combat.
Nobody got their first system at 15, I got the N64 at 15 and i'd already owned the C64, the NES, the Mega Drive, and the Gameboy and had been playing all of them for like 7 or 8 years, I spent tons of time with the 2600 too before I got the C64, and continued to play it every now and then along with the other consoles (mainly due to the fact that the 2600 was set up in the living room and my mother liked to play it over the newer machines)Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
The only large group who would've been getting N64 as their first system were pre-teens.
If you're limiting yourself to crappy 2 player races then the N64 has no problems with frame rate on next to anythingQuote:
Originally Posted by ZZbadnusty
Saying Outrun outclasses anything in the 5th gen is like saying Robotron 64 outclasses Battle Garregga and Radiant Silvergun.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZbadnusty
Exactly, where are the Mario 64s? the Crash Bandicoots? the Rayman 2's? the Ape Escapes?, these are mainstay games of that era ffs and theres jack shit available on Saturn, instead you list a bunch of 2nd-rate 16-bit games with prettied up graphics, heck Liquid Kids and Mickey and Donald actually are on 4th gen consoles.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZbadnusty
Even saying that this stuff isn't very remarkable in comparison to N64 anyway, half these games are so unremarkable (Astal, Tempo) that even disappointing games like Yoshi's Story, and Kirby 64 completely put them in their place, and the games which really are good, such as Silhouette Mirage, and the Mega Man games, have alternatives like Mischief Makers, and Goemon's Great Adventure.
A lot of these types of games on Saturn (such as Tryrush Deppy) are just too low budget, and it comes across in their gameplay and lack of polish, in reality the licence games on N64, like Tarzan, and the Tigger game are just as good as most of these titles. these games are just famous on Saturn because they're exotic imports, whilst the likes of Tarzan and Tigger are ignored because they're western released licence games.
Sure the Saturn was better overral for these side-on platformers, especially when taking into consideration multi-platform games like Pandemonium, and Rayman, but the argument is generally a straight quantity vs quality argument, outside of a handful of standout games, Saturn platformers, even when they're side-on 16-bit style are not really worth playing over SNES games, in fact across the board Saturn platformers feel like a huge step back after the SNES, most of them are short, have basic level design, and have no save game options.
I already went over this in my post, wandering about a 2d map a la Link to the Past isn't even remotely comparable to actually running through an unsettling, fleshed out world in 3D such as the one in Soul Reaver.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZbadnusty
No, the N64 had Paper Mario, which was one of the highest rated RPGs of that generation, it also had Ogre Battle 64, and Hybrid Heaven was decent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Croc is not one of the best 3D platform games of that generation, Croc is more like par with Hybrid Heaven, and Bug isn't even a very playable game at all, shockingly thats pretty much it for Saturn, unless you want to start jamming in games from other genre's like Burning Rangers, and Tomb Raider, but then all that does is make those other genre's even worse because now you have nothing representing the 3rd person action genre outside of Amok, and nothing representing 3D adventure games at all.
Nobody outside this forum thinks Gran Chaser is anything but appaling, and High Octane is barely any better off too, Scorcher is alright at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Scorcher is junk compared to Extreme G, High Octane is junk compared to Episode 1 Racer, Gran Chaser is junk compared to SCARS, where is the competition to F-Zero X?, the competition to Rush 2049? Wipeout 64 is easily on par with Wipeout XL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Complete and utter whitewash
Resident Evil 2 is on the N64 ffsQuote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
:bang:
Sin and Punishment kicks the ever loving shit out of Star Fox 64 (and that's saying something, as Star Fox is awesome), it kicks the shit out of Ocarina of Time and Goldeneye as well for that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I don't even know what you're talking about here, N64 has Rogue Squadron, Battle For Naboo, Buck Bumble.
and if you're just talking about 3rd person shooters it has Winback, Zero Hour, and Jet Force Gemini
I have no problems with people bringing up Sega Rally, I have problems with them acting as though having 3 or 4 short games with 3 courses each is acceptable for a system's lifespan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
So you think Sega Rally is on par with Wave Race? fine, what about the whole mass of other racing games on the N64 which cover a wide variety of sub genre's? what about Diddy Kong Racing? what about Excitebike 64? what about Micro Machines? what about sim-ish games like World Driver Championship, Top Gear Rally 2, and F1-World Grand Prix 2? there's no variety at all in the Saturn racing library, and there's no quantity either, you can't sit around playing the same 3 or 4 games for 4 years odd, and especially not when all of them have three or 4 odd courses.
What if someone doesn't even want an arcade racer, and wants a sim? they're stuck with Sega Rally regardless, Kind of like being stuck with Paper Mario when you want an epic RPG.
and? how is this relevant, Saturn doesn't suddenly get a get out of jail free card because it died early, people are saying the Saturn has full variety like the Playstation, explaining why it has missing genre representation doesn't change the fact that it has missing genre's, and in many of the most popular genre's no less.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Factor
Its not like Beat-em-ups, and scrolling shmups, genre's which had completely fallen out of favour with gamers, and often weren't even released in the west because when they were they sold like crap.
Steep Slope Sliders isn't a racing game like 1080, or Cool Boarders its more focussed on tricks, there is no race mode at all, just a time attack, and its pretty barebones on top of that tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcon
Outrun was an unenhanced port of a 10 year old game, which makes it shovelware.
Covering genres doesn't make a library good. Good games do.
Unique games that can't easily be shoehorned into typical genres offer better variety than more of the same old.
http://www.spaceg.com/multimedia/col...ane%20clap.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
I take it Cruisin' USA was solid gold in the meantime right? Polygons make a ton of difference, especially fugly ones with poor draw distance.
You seriously going to even try and make out Paper Mario is a traditional RPG ? and dear God Hybrid Heaven ? . When it came to Traditional RPG's the system was dire , it had none to speak off and nothing even remotely approaching Saga (which I'm sure had rave reviews at the time :p)Quote:
No, the N64 had Paper Mario, which was one of the highest rated RPGs of that generation, it also had Ogre Battle 64, and Hybrid Heaven was decent
Bug Bumble = PML which is all I can say to that , the game was truly dire , RS is average at best . You want to play the list game for 3D shooters fine by all means . Lets have Panzer Dragoon 1 and Zwei (the best 3D shooter ever made imo) , Stellar Assault , Thunderhawk II , Wing Arms, Black Fire , Blam! Machinehead, Bulk Slash, Magic Carpet |, Shell Shock , Sky Target, AMOK , Cyberia and quite a few more which I can't be bothered to type .Quote:
Sin and Punishment kicks the ever loving shit out of Star Fox 64 (and that's saying something, as Star Fox is awesome), it kicks the shit out of Ocarina of Time and Goldeneye as well for that matter.
I don't even know what you're talking about here, N64 has Rogue Squadron, Battle For Naboo, Buck Bumble.
When is made so good and features a perfect 2 player mode it doesn't matter , same for Wave Race - Both games had perfect controls and perfect 2 player modes and have let to be bettered imo.Quote:
I have no problems with people bringing up Sega Rally, I have problems with them acting as though having 3 or 4 short games with 3 courses each is acceptable for a system's lifespan
DKR - never liked it. Excitebike 64 is just dire imo with dreadful graphics , piss poor frame rate and laughable handling why people race about is quite beyond me . I quite enjoyed F1 it was miles ahead of most other F1 games (just slightly letdown in the handling dept) and TGR on the system and think Mario Kart 64 is the best in the entire series and one of the best racing games ever made - I still play that and love it to this very day.Quote:
N64 which cover a wide variety of sub genre's? what about Diddy Kong Racing? what about Excitebike 64? what about Micro Machines? what about sim-ish games like World Driver Championship, Top Gear Rally 2, and F1-World Grand Prix 2?
Then you would picked Need for Speed with was not only great , but had a brilliant 2 player mode with AI cars also on track in 2 player mode , or you'll get King The Spirits 2 -which was a very nice game .Quote:
What if someone doesn't even want an arcade racer, and wants a sim? they're stuck with Sega Rally regardless,
Now What about if you wanted a Mech game on the N64 , to play a Horror game other than RE 2 , a Pinball game , a Light Gun game , a traditional RPG, a traditional 2D shooter, a strategy RPG , A decent athletic game, a decent Bomberman on our N64's . I think we're pretty stuffed
OutRun is as playable now was it was when it 1st came out and there was also Saturn mode that double the frame rate to 60 fps and you also had both the classic original and arranged soundtracks. It'a timeless classicQuote:
Outrun was an unenhanced port of a 10 year old game, which makes it shovelware
Nightmare Creatures and Shadowman, off the top of my head. The Castlevania games surely count too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
16bitter was a pretentious prick and I was happy to remind him of that fact whenever I could. If that's "trolling," then fine. I wasn't the only one who was getting sick of his bullshit. As for you, it's not my fault that you managed to twist an off-hand, near-complimentary observation into a blatant attack and turn the Socket review thread into a mudslinging contest.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
And to be clear, you are not nearly as big an ass as 16bitter, but your writing style is similar enough to warrant suspicion.
Oh yeah, there's also a JP-exclusive Bomberman game released in 2001. It's supposed to be really good, but it's a bit hard to find and awfully expensive.
Traditional or not, Paper Mario is a great game. And Hybrid Heaven is even less traditional, but is good at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Some of those games are good, others not, but when you list them right after passing off Rogue Squadron as "average at best", it hurts the credibility of your post for sure... RS1 is better than almost all of those games.Quote:
Bug Bumble = PML which is all I can say to that , the game was truly dire , RS is average at best . You want to play the list game for 3D shooters fine by all means . Lets have Panzer Dragoon 1 and Zwei (the best 3D shooter ever made imo) , Stellar Assault , Thunderhawk II , Wing Arms, Black Fire , Blam! Machinehead, Bulk Slash, Magic Carpet |, Shell Shock , Sky Target, AMOK , Cyberia and quite a few more which I can't be bothered to type .
Also, PD1 and 2 shouldn't be compared to Rogue Squadron; those are rail shooters, not free-roaming shooters. Same for Sky Target. And Cyberia's basically an FMV game. PD1 and 2 and Sky Target should be compared to the N64's rail shooters, aka Star Fox 64 and Sin & Punishment -- and as great as both of the Panzer Dragoon games are, those two N64 games are just as good. I find it pretty hard to decide which is better, actually.
So you're saying that as long as you like a game, you don't care how much content it has? I guess I can sort of understand, but I do think amount of content matters.Quote:
When is made so good and features a perfect 2 player mode it doesn't matter , same for Wave Race - Both games had perfect controls and perfect 2 player modes and have let to be bettered imo.
And on that note, I think the Saturn's worst racing game offender in terms of content has to be Manx TT. Yes, I know it has good controls, fine graphics, a bunch of modes and stuff to keep you playing for a little while, but the game essentially has 1 2/3rds tracks! Maybe less, really! It's just crazy-limited in terms of tracks. Even the much-maligned Hang-On GP has like 4-5 tracks... ( I never really liked the Manx TT arcade game, either, but that's a different story.)
Excitebike 64 has exceptional graphics that still impress to this day. I have no idea what you're talking about there, but it's incredibly off-base. The framerate's good, too; just don't turn on high res mode and it's fine. As for the handling, it's just about as great as motorcycle racing games have ever been. The game's a perfect mix of sim and arcade elements. Left Field originally wanted to make the game a sim, but Nintendo influenced them to make it more arcadey, with things like the great turbo system, and they were entirely right -- the results are far more fun than it would have been had it been a sim. Just compare Excitebike 64 to the most simmish motorcycle racer on the N64, EA's Supercross 2000... yeah, it's clear which one is more fun.Quote:
DKR - never liked it. Excitebike 64 is just dire imo with dreadful graphics , piss poor frame rate and laughable handling why people race about is quite beyond me . I quite enjoyed F1 it was miles ahead of most other F1 games (just slightly letdown in the handling dept) and TGR on the system and think Mario Kart 64 is the best in the entire series and one of the best racing games ever made - I still play that and love it to this very day.
As for DKR, I do like it, but yeah, Mario Kart 64 is the better game. Still, it's quite good. As for Top Gear Rally, I know it gets a lot of praise, and certainly deserves it, but I think more people should have played the other three Top Gear games on N64... Overdrive, Rally 2, and Hyper-Bike are all good games too. :)
You're saying that The Need for Speed is the Saturn's answer to sim racers like World Driver Championship or Gran Turismo, really? That's kind of sketchy... and as Thenewguy said, the Saturn has no rally sims. The N64 of course does -- Top Gear Rally 2 is great, and fairly simmish.Quote:
Then you would picked Need for Speed with was not only great , but had a brilliant 2 player mode with AI cars also on track in 2 player mode , or you'll get King The Spirits 2 -which was a very nice game .
Mech game - True, the N64 has none. You'll need to play tank games like the Battletanx games and Battlezone 64 instead.Quote:
Now What about if you wanted a Mech game on the N64 , to play a Horror game other than RE 2 , a Pinball game , a Light Gun game , a traditional RPG, a traditional 2D shooter, a strategy RPG , A decent athletic game, a decent Bomberman on our N64's . I think we're pretty stuffed
Horror - Has already been mentioned, but the N64 has Hybrid Heaven (it's somewhat horror-ish I think), the two Castlevania games, etc.
Pinball - True, N64 has none. Nintendo released some great handheld pinball games (every portable Nintendo system up to the DS has at least one good first-party pinball game), but not on their TV consoles, for whatever reason.
Light Gun - Nintendo wanted the N64 to be about the N64 controller, not add-on controllers, so it doesn't have an official wheel, lightgun, mouse, etc. I think it was a decent decision, because it means that anyone can correctly play any of the games, which is great, but it does mean that lightgun games got left out. The one lightgun-style game the N64 has, Knife Edge, is alright but certainly nothing amazing. (Rail shooter fans should check it out anyway though, it's decent enough to be worth a play or two at least and does have 4 player co-op.)
(Good) Traditional JRPG - Import Shiren the Wanderer 2 from Japan. Otherwise, play Paper Mario, which is fantastic, traditional or no.
2d shooter -- Space Invaders, Bangaioh (JP only), Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth... sure, several of those are 2.5d, but they're good games for sure. Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth is quite fun. Sure, I wish the N64 had more shmups, of course, but at least the couple it has are good.
Strategy-RPG - Ogre Battle 64 sort of is this... otherwise, import Super Robot Taisen 64.
Athletic game - I'm not sure what you mean here, the N64 has lots and lots of sports games, including a few olympic-style ones if that's what you're talking about.
Bomberman - the N64 has four Bomberman games, one Japan only, and all are quite good games. The first one, Bomberman 64, is a serious, and unique, attempt at a Bomberman 3d platformer, and it works out brilliantly -- it's a very good game. The multiplayer mode, with 3d arenas and circular explosions, is unique in the series as well. The traditional Bomberman multiplayer might be better, but Bomberman 64's is unique and fun too. Bomberman Hero plays completely differently, and has no multiplayer, but is still a good 3d linear-style platformer. Bomberman 64: The Second Attack... haven't played that one much, myself, sadly, but it looks solid, apart from being more linear than the original Bomberman 64, and having cross-shaped explosions in multiplayer. The last one, the Japan-only Bomberman 64 (from late 2001; US Bomberman 64 had a different name in Japan), is a traditional, 2d-style Bomberman game. That's the one for traditional 2d Bomberman fans.
Overall, sure Saturn Bomberman is a great game, but the N64 has four good Bomberman games, not just one (sorry, Saturn Bomberman Fight! isn't as good as the first one, or any of the N64 games)...
I forgot that Outrun did get a US release on Saturn, but still the Japanese version is better, because the US version cut out the remixed music... and yeah, it's certainly a classic. I think, mostly because there hadn't been a 32X release, Saturn Outrun was important. I mean, finally, an actual good version of the original Outrun game... the Genesis version certainly wasn't good, and as I said it sadly didn't get to the 32X.Quote:
OutRun is as playable now was it was when it 1st came out and there was also Saturn mode that double the frame rate to 60 fps and you also had both the classic original and arranged soundtracks. It'a timeless classic
Cruis'n USA vs. Outrun? Yeah, Outrun is better, but Cruis'n USA isn't as bad as you suggest, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
I wouldn't suggest that either game was bad, just that Cruis'n USA is a derivative of Outrun with some notable graphical flaws especially on the N64.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
I own it! It's amazing, the multi-player mode is really fun, the 1 player mode is fun but short, the puzzle game is also fun. The part most people don't know is that it's got the mini-game proportion of Bomberman Land, all the mini-games and stuff are there in one big town. I highly recommend it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
Right, doesn't it have Panic Bomber included too, complete with 4-player mode and everything? Pretty cool collection. It's too bad that it came out too late for any company to care about bringing it over. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by GameMaster600
Ah. At least the N64 versions of Cruis'n World and Exotica are both better looking and much more full-featured, though I can still enjoy the first one too it's clearly the weakest of the three.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
I haven't played it, but I'd like to try Vatlva sometime, yeah. It looks like fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zz Badnusty
This makes me sad to read on a classic Sega site. It actually took a decade for console technology to be able to replicate the arcade experience. That's how big the technology gap used to be with high end arcade hardware. Plus, like Team Andromeda said, the game is timeless. Playing it at home in arcade glory was a big deal for a lot of fans (I don't think the game was properly emulated on PC at that point), and getting it bundled in Sega Ages Vol. 1 with After Burner and Space Harrier was a great deal. It was the opposite of shovelware.Quote:
Originally Posted by thenewguy
Now, if all the Saturn had was ports of old games, that would have been disappointing. But it had them in addition to modern games. That's why I mentioned classic compilations before. They were a nice addition to the Saturn and Playstation collections but something there was very little of on N64. People like me were waiting for near arcade perfect versions of games like OutRun and Fantasy Zone.
N64 RPGs vs. Saturn 3d platformers are at worst even, at best an advantage for the N64. I mean, I like Bug!, Bug Too, and Croc on the one hand, and Hybrid Heaven and Aidyn Chronicles on the other, but I know that many people don't like any of those, while Paper Mario is an agreed-upon classic. The Saturn doesn't have any 3d platformers on that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
There are more futuristic racing games on N64 than there are on Saturn, and they are better too. I mean, I actually do kind of like Cyber Speedway and Hi-Octane, but they're not as good as SCARS, Rush 2049, Hydro Thunder, F-Zero X, etc... and as for Wipeout, the Saturn does have the best version of the first game, but Wipeout 64 is my favorite Wipeout game that generation. Multiplayer in Wipeout 64 was fantastic, too, particularly the outstanding 2-player mode. Also, the game has a good soundtrack.Quote:
There's some very good racers on the Saturn but some were Japanese only but like King The Spirits 97 , Drift King 97 (which at the time looked amazing) . There are just as many futuristic racers on the Saturn as the N64 but that depends on how you view quality. Some people 'may' like the likes of Gran Chaser, Hi-Octane others like me will think they're shit but at least Scorcher was nice and tbh I though the Multi player in Wiperout 64 was weak and the Saturn and PS versions were just a little better and having a mono soundtrack for Wipeout 64 was just a complete and utter joke and a insult to Wipeout
Anyway, from my futuristic racing games list: (bolded are games I own)
Sega Saturn
--
*Cyber Speedway
+Scorcher
Off-World Interceptor Extreme (mostly shooting, not racing)
Wipeout
Wipeout XL (Europe/Japan only)
Hi Octane
Impact Racing (combat racing against the clock)
Sony Playstation
--
*Wipeout 3
*Wipeout 3: Special Edition (Europe only)
*Starwinder: The Great Space Race (more shooting than racing, but there is racing)
*JetMoto 2
*JetMoto 3
*Cosmic Race (Japan only)
*Streak Hoverboard Racing
*Firebugs (only partially futuristic themed)
*Red Asphalt (Rock 'N Roll Racing II: Red Asphalt in Europe)
*Running High (Japan only)
*NGEN Racing (US/Europe only)
*MaxRacer (Japan only)
*Speed Racer (1998)
+JetMoto
+Crime Killer
+Rollcage
+Motorhead
+Rollcage Stage II
+Jeff Gordon XS Racing
+CyberSpeed
+Locus (Japan only)
+Midway's Greatest Arcade Hits Vol. 2 (RoadBlasters)
Killer Loop (on Dreamcast as Magforce Racing)
Wipeout
Off-World Interceptor Extreme (mostly shooting, not racing)
Wipeout XL
Hi Octane
Hydro Thunder
Hot Wheels Turbo Racing
S.C.A.R.S.
Impact Racing (combat racing against the clock)
Nintendo 64
--
*F-Zero X
*Wipeout 64
*Extreme-G
*Stunt Racer 64
*Aero Gauge
*Carmageddon 64
+XG2: Extreme-G 2
San Francisco Rush 2049
Star Wars Episode I Racer
S.C.A.R.S.
Hydro Thunder
Hot Wheels Turbo Racing
Hydro Thunder is another good water racing game on the N64, so it has two.Quote:
I do love your utter hypocrisy when it comes to Wave Race 64 . Yeah its ok for you to go on about that game , a early title and the only good water based racer on the system - but GOD forbid should anyone go on about SEGA Rally it's self a pretty early title and the only decent Rally game on the system; Which leads to me point, doesn't matter the number its always about the quality and in those terms Wave Race 64 and Rally never age or have been bettered imo.
Otherwise, I could see maybe saying Sega Rally and Wave Race are the best games in their franchises, I do like both games better than their DC/GC sequels...
Addressed almost all of these in my last post, and third person shooters was answered too (there are at least three good ones, not just one), but adventure games is a new one... the N64 does have fewer adventure games than the Saturn, yes, but at least both of the ones it has (Shadowgate 64 and Scooby-Doo) are N64 exclusive titles... most all of the Saturn ones are multiplatform, and of course just about any adventure game on the PC is going to be far better on PC.Quote:
I'm sorry I thought Dark Saviour was utterly brilliant myself did enjoy Legend of Oasis too and if you want to play that really sad and pathetic game, Where was the N64 RPG epic to that of Saga or Grandia, where was the N64 answer to Bomberman on the Saturn, What about horror games like Resident Evil, Deep Fear , Enemy Zero I can't think of one on the N64 , I can't think of any good Mech games on the N64 , but can name a number on the Saturn, Can't think on any Gun games on the N64, hardly any Point and Click games on the N64, or any real AAA 2D and 3D fighting games, much less Traditional shooters or pinball games and there's only one real good 3D shooter on the System too, but hey it's ok to go on about Star Fox 64 another game that came out pretty early in the system life is about the only good game in its genre on the system, but again lets not go on about Rally please , because the thought of playing a early game years after the system ships, fill ones with dread .
Again, each platform has its strengths and weaknesses. But nayway, I wouldn't really say beat 'em ups was a strength for the Saturn... it had a few good ones, sure, but compared to the SNES, Genesis, or even PS2, it doesn't have very much in terms of variety...Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
As for fighting games, I think the N64's pretty competitive in 3d fighting games, but of course can't match the Saturn in 2d ones. However, a lot of those Saturn 2d fighting games are parts of series that have been re-released again since, in better/more complete forms. I mean, is there really any reason to bother with the Saturn KOF, Samurai Shodown, or Street Fighter II/Alpha games, unless you specifically want to play them on Saturn?
Oh, and as for classic compilations, I"m not sure which wins between Saturn and N64 in US releases (just a couple for each), but the Saturn does have a bunch more in Japan, true. However, I find it hard to ignore that the Playstation just blows it away in number of classic releases, or that the 6th gen (PS2 and on, not DC) was a huge improvement over 4th and 5th gen classic collections, in that finally we got collections with lots of titles in them, and not just 3-6 or so like most PS1, Saturn, or N64 collections have.
The N64 has the best FPSes of any of the consoles that generation. While I agree that the genre's better on PC, the N64 ones are great, and shouldn't be ignored just because of that... and anyway, sure it's no mouse, but the N64 controller does work pretty well for FPSes, as far as consoles go.Quote:
The N64 has an advantage for first-person shooters but since those were so much better on PC, that advantage doesn't mean much to me. Plus, it's not like the SS had nothing. Powerslave/Exhumed has actually aged pretty well.
Also, sure the Saturn doesn't have nothing, it just can't come close to the N64 in either quantity or overall quality. There's a reason Saturn FPS fans always mention Powerslave, Duke 3D, and Quake, I think... are there any good FPSes on Saturn apart from that? I know there are some mediocre to poor ones (including Saturn Doom, and most of the early stuff), and don't know how good the port of Hexen is, but... yeah, the N64's the clear, easy winner.
True, mostly Japan-only though.Quote:
Ogre Battle's cool but the SS has a handful of good strategy games.
I haven't played Burning Rangers, but I've heard it's good but really short... JFG and Duke Nukem: Zero Hour are both pretty good games (haven't played Winback), and they're far longer too.Quote:
You're describing a weakness more against the PS1 than the N64, IMO. I would take Burning Rangers over Winback and JFG. Both the SS and N64 lack for quantity here.
So what, you think they cancel eachother out, the Saturn with the mech games, the N64 with the car and tank ones?Quote:
For cars? The SS is lacking. For mechs, there's Bulk Slash, Virtual On, and Gungriffon so that ties in with the aforementioned 3rd person action genre somewhat.
The N64 has some quirky stuff too, you know, including some US and some Japan-only titles. Maybe not as much as Sega has, but it has some.Quote:
The SS also seems to have more games that are quirky or don't fall into traditional/major genres: NiGHTS, various pinball games, Mr. Bones, Wonder 3, Pulirula, Digital Dance Mix, Gals Panic SS, Funky Head Boxers, etc..
This is the best post I've seen in this thread for a while. MAME wasn't practical for anything other than Atari age gaming well into the 2000s. I think I first saw Outrun and other scaler games supported sometime after 2002, and there was and is still the frustration of getting the controls right. I remember one of the first hardware specific emulators around the time finally being able to handle Galaxy Force and Rad Mobile and my hardware at the time wasn't fast enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Outrun being available, even enhanced, for the Saturn in Japan and the US (Sega Ages) was basically the only way to play the game at home in true form. That meant that it was significantly better in game design than a good chunk, if not all, of the early 3D console racers.
Yes, I do believe the puzzle game is Panic Bomber.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
It's not the greatest system for beat 'em ups but it has a few really good ones that play quite differently. Guardian Heroes isn't the same experience as ports of arcade brawlers. You said in the other thread you haven't played Three Dirty Dwarves. I think it should be played before fully judging the Saturn for beat 'em ups. It's not for everyone but it's a unique European take on the genre.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
The Saturn was super easy to play imports on.Quote:
Oh, and as for classic compilations, I"m not sure which wins between Saturn and N64 in US releases (just a couple for each)
We got Dragon Force, Shining Force III, Iron Storm, and a few mult-format games like Worms so it's still pretty impressive without Japan-only releases.Quote:
True, mostly Japan-only though.
Length doesn't determine game quality. Winback was pretty cool, though. I have it on both N64 and PS2 but haven't delved much into the latter yet.Quote:
I haven't played Burning Rangers, but I've heard it's good but really short... JFG and Duke Nukem: Zero Hour are both pretty good games (haven't played Winback), and they're far longer too.
No, he asked about vehicular combat but seemed to be talking about car/tank games. I didn't know if he was including mech games but I felt they're worth mentioning.Quote:
So what, you think they cancel eachother out, the Saturn with the mech games, the N64 with the car and tank ones?
I know, I have played every N64 game released. ;) My point was what you just said, the Saturn has more. I quite liked Pokemon Snap and Blast Corps. Space Station Silicon Valley has its fans but I couldn't get into it.Quote:
The N64 has some quirky stuff too, you know, including some US and some Japan-only titles. Maybe not as much as Sega has, but it has some.
Stole the words right out of my mouth. +1Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
@ MrMatthews = Excuse the curtness, I responded properly earlier but it got lost in a log-out and it doesn't seem JR can retrieve it. The salient points were that I don't express myself or think like 16Bitter (Zoltor and Olls may read it so but I expect more literacy from you), and that if you want your Socket thread put back on rails I'll delete my irrelevant posts but you'll have to do the same since iirc yours quoted me.
@ Thenewguy = see above; unfortunately your post of 2:01 PM was the majority of what I responded to. I'm not going to quote everything and expand on points again so here it is in a nutshell.
Plenty of people got their own (not handmedown) first console at 13-15. Comparing the avg/casual gamers such as ourselves as nonsense, and saying "Nobody~~~I~~~" makes you sound like eddiespruce.
Outrun holds up fine against 5th gen titles, mostly by being something completely different from them. The Genesis Outruns not so much but the arcade-perfect Outrun certainly does. It also gained some throwback charm over the decade since its arcade release.
The idea of playing Sim Racers for years is a joke, they last a week. Beat the qualifying trials, buy a new car, beat the first circuit, buy a new car, beat the next circuit, buy a new car, beat the Champion mode, buy a new car, beat the unlocked Hard mode, win the super car, try a couple laps out with the super car, throw the game out. Who bothers refining his times on tedious "realistic" tracks that look like the road to one's supermarket? Rally games and Wipeout are made for time attack polishing, that's why they last for years.
Your SNES/Saturn comparison holds water only if your mean the best or above avg SNES games, the avg SNES or Genny platformer is rot.
Tarzan on N64 and moreso on PS is an excellent game in the tradition of the 16 bit Disney vehicles so there's no shame in saying something doesn't live up to it.
A Link to the Past is superior to Soul Reaver and for that matter OoT; and if you want the unsettling atmosphere Blood Omen smokes it. I enjoy 3D games too but 3D doesn't automatically make anything better (for racing games it's the closest).
Wipeout 64 is not easily on par with XL, it has simplistic textures making it much harder to see in (or were you playing these games at PAL speed?), an inferior soundtrack and inferior audio both which make a big difference when polishing track records for several hours. Wipeout and iirc XL supported the link calbe for full screen 2P which for the game Wipeout is (a perfectionist's game) far outweighs 4P splitscreen, as if one can really find 3 other good racers who won't be hampered by playing on a kaleidoscoped screen. Anyway the first Wipeout is better than either.
Rush 2049 is one of the absolute worst high profile racers ever, the Primal Rage of racing.
You were correct about a couple things: Croc is certainly not a great game of any kind, and j factor's defence of the Saturn for its early death is nonsense.
DKR is just horrid, with hideous levels, characters, audio, and a sickening degree of contrived kiddiness. Mario Kart 64 completely outclasses it.
Utter tosh. If this is a great RPG Albert Odyssey and MKR are masterpieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Superb game. Don't know what he's talking about either.Quote:
Excitebike 64
This category is PS all the way. Fear Effect 1 and 2 trump all the RE style games including Deep Fear, Blood Omen trumps the Castlevanias (though I think them at least equal to Soul Reaver), it has Silent Hill, more Clock Towers, Countdown Vampires, Vampire Hunter D, TRAG (RE mechanics if not properly horror). Creature Shock and Space Hulk are on both SS/PS; I believe there's a special edition of CS on Saturn but wouldn't imagine it adds anything much (may even have been the edition I played, I don't know the regular game well enough to have noticed). Saturn also has the eight disk Phantasm, PS the something Jin highschool terror games.Quote:
Horror - Has already been mentioned, but the N64 has Hybrid Heaven (it's somewhat horror-ish I think), the two Castlevania games, etc.
What's this mean? Pinball Quest is highly notable and straight up Pinball was well regarded till later compilations emulated the original machine it's based on. Pinball's 1st party too, though I don't see how that matters.Quote:
Pinball - True, N64 has none. Nintendo released some great handheld pinball games (every portable Nintendo system up to the DS has at least one good first-party pinball game), but not on their TV consoles, for whatever reason.
This game's like Torneko on the PS or Evolution on DC; few would call them traditional.Quote:
(Good) Traditional JRPG - Import Shiren the Wanderer 2 from Japan.
64 is cool. As a trivial point the Saturn also has Bomberman Wars, a sort of crossover into the strategy genre. I wouldn't recommend it but it's there.Quote:
Bomberman
There's a Big difference between Horror games and games that use a horror theme. I mean Saturn also had the likes of Castlevania on its , but I'll never class it as a Survival Horror type game myself. That's overlooking how the Saturn also had the likes of Torico , D, Hiden Souls ECT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guntz
Never said it wasn't a bad game, its not even close to being a Traditional RPG though and its not SAGA type epicQuote:
Traditional or not, Paper Mario is a great game.
I could say the same about anyone even trying to make out that Hybrid Heaven is a good game . To me RS was average on the N64 , different story on the Cube though imo.Quote:
Some of those games are good, others not, but when you list them right after passing off Rogue Squadron as "average at best"
You want to play that sad little game > Fine Stellar Assault is free roaming and far better than RS imo , so are the likes of Thunder Hawk II.Quote:
Also, PD1 and 2 shouldn't be compared to Rogue Squadron; those are rail shooters, not free-roaming shooters
Yep , Its always about gameplay . . I take the point about Manx TT which is why I tend never to highlight the game , it was a game that really needed a full sitdown Arcade cab and that was a massive apart of its appeal .Quote:
So you're saying that as long as you like a game, you don't care how much content it has
Sorry imo the game looked like crap and even with the 4 Meg cart featured muddy graphics and its frame rate was shit did it ever hit 30 fps and the less said about the handling the better ...Quote:
Excitebike 64 has exceptional graphics that still impress to this day. I have no idea what you're talking about there, but it's incredibly off-base
This isn't about the PS , its about Saturn and N64 not that I even liked GT anyway (Toca World Tour and Toca II were far better sims imo) . I liked Need For Speed more than WDC yes and the 2 player mode in NSF to be utterly brilliant.Quote:
You're saying that The Need for Speed is the Saturn's answer to sim racers like World Driver Championship or Gran Turismo, really
Think I'll stick with Gun Griffon series myself and it I really want a Tank fix I'll just play Mass Destruction .Quote:
Mech game - True, the N64 has none. You'll need to play tank games like the Battletanx games and Battlezone 64 instead
Again , This is Saturn and N64 not other machines . I was just making the point that we can all highlight the odd genre why a console is lacking when it suits us .Quote:
Pinball - True, N64 has none. Nintendo released some great handheld pinball games
It doesn't have any , which is the point I was makingQuote:
Light Gun - Nintendo wanted the N64 to be about the N64 controller, not add-on controllers
Space Invaders , Lets not go there and I don't want to even try and begin to list the great Saturn 2D shooters ..Quote:
2d shooter -- Space Invaders, Bangaioh (JP only), Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth... sure, several of those are 2.5d, but they're good games for sure. Star Soldier: Vanishing Earth is quite fun. Sure, I wish the N64 had more shmups, of course, but at least the couple it has are good
Not on to much there are we ?. Think I stick with Shining Force and Dragon ForceQuote:
Strategy-RPG - Ogre Battle 64 sort of is this... otherwise, import Super Robot Taisen 64
Athletics you know like Track and Field and Winter Olympic on the N64 is truly dire , Winter Heat pisses on it .Quote:
Athletic game - I'm not sure what you mean here, the N64 has lots and lots of sports games, including a few olympic-style ones if that's what you're talking about
Quite a few on the Saturn too and we all know no Bomberman on the N64 held a candle to the Saturn versionQuote:
Bomberman - the N64 has four Bomberman games, one Japan only, and all are quite good games
Now I love the N64 and many of its games, but in a few genre it came way up short , that won't stop me loving the system though
Nobody's faulting the N64 for not having an answer to GTA3; Saturn needn't be faulted for a lack of Syphon Filter. I don't recall a post saying the Saturn has as much variety as the Playstation. But for its time, it had most bases covered. There's no denying that it was lacking in a few areas. But I think N64 was lacking in more. And when I say N64 was lacking in certain genres, I'm only talking about genres that were significantly present during its lifespan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMatthews
Truce, then.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
So you're saying that as long as you like a game, you don't care how much content it has
"Yep , Its always about gameplay . . I take the point about Manx TT which is why I tend never to highlight the game , it was a game that really needed a full sitdown Arcade cab and that was a massive apart of its appeal ."
That's a questionable reply.
You're treading on dangerous grounds with that reply. You see, more content in a already good game, leads to greatness or at very least, a better game, furthermore sometimes the extra content its self makes a game have good gameplay(if you need examples of this, just ask, I'll post some). With such a reply, you might as well be saying, as long as the game is fun enough to hold my attention for more then 5 minutes, I don't mind.
Also it must be asked, if a game with not much content can even be considered a good game/worth playing in some cases, even though the gameplay its self is not bad(this is a common case in the genres that have metric tons of titles, after all why play just a good game, when you could be playing very good or Great games).
Firstly. More content doesn't mean 'greatness', and certainly doesn't imply a better game. Also, as long as a game is fun enough to hold attention for any length of time, beit 5 minutes or 5 hours, it can still be considered a good game. Whether or not the quality and length warrants purchase is subjective and circumstantial to other factors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoltor
Secondly. Usually when asking something, it's not a statement and includes one of these: ?
I'm surprised by this post - it's as if Zoltor is "TRYING" to understand how those who aren't complete nerd-rage nutjobs think about gaming.... This is progress, folks. :lol:
Perhaps you should read the entire thing, I said a "already" good game, with more content leads to greatness "or" at very least a "better" game(Also leads to greatness, is not the same thing as saying it means greatness).Quote:
Originally Posted by Knuckle Duster
Really now, shall I start listing crappy games that I've spent some time on, that I deffinitely wouldn't call good games?
Omg you're clueless, it wasn't a question expecting to be anwered, It's a philosophy based statement telling people they should ask themselves that question, not a dirrect question, as the answer veries on genre, and variables with individual games.
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/24/d13e2958.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Zoltor
Sorry bro, your attempt at asking rhetorical questions has failed.
Usually they still embody question form, and as such include question marks along with some subtle conveying of wit. Sadly, when you train-wreck the English language worse than an average kindergarten student, nobody picks up on it. Better luck next time.
Please, go ahead and list those crappy games you hate. You obviously have nothing better to do with your life.
I mentioned Castlevania because I think the N64 games are more legitimately horror-themed than many other games in the series... I mean, all of the games have the monsters and some creepiness here and there, but the N64 games have more adventure elements that give the game a creepier atmosphere than most other Castlevania games. But no, it's not survival horror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Epic N64 RPG? I guess that's either Quest 64 (I know, almost everyone hates it; I haven't played it, but expect I probably would too), or the WRPG Aidyn Chronicles, which as I say in the review thread, is pretty seriously flawed, but hugely ambitious and wide in scope, and I do really like the game despite its serious problems.Quote:
Never said it wasn't a bad game, its not even close to being a Traditional RPG though and its not SAGA type epic
I love the Cube Rogue Squadron games, but RS1/BfN on the N64 are even better, in my opinion.Quote:
I could say the same about anyone even trying to make out that Hybrid Heaven is a good game . To me RS was average on the N64 , different story on the Cube though imo.
Ah... no, free-roam shooters being a different genre from rail shooters is not a "sad little game". If anything the reverse is true -- trying to combine those two quite different genres makes little sense.Quote:
You want to play that sad little game > Fine Stellar Assault is free roaming and far better than RS imo , so are the likes of Thunder Hawk II.
I mean, I like both a lot, but they are certainly quite different. And RS1 (and BfN) are both way better than Thunderstrike 2. I haven't played Stellar Assault SS, though.
I never liked that game all that much in the arcades either, though.Quote:
Yep , Its always about gameplay . . I take the point about Manx TT which is why I tend never to highlight the game , it was a game that really needed a full sitdown Arcade cab and that was a massive apart of its appeal .
As I said in my review, it's the High Res mode that gives it that bad framerate, actually (and forces it into widescreen too, annoyingly). Use normal res, the framerate is completely stable.Quote:
Sorry imo the game looked like crap and even with the 4 Meg cart featured muddy graphics and its frame rate was shit did it ever hit 30 fps and the less said about the handling the better ...
As for the graphics, Excitebike 64, particularly in its outdoor (ie not arena) courses, is an amazing looking game. Incredible, incredible work all around, in gameplay, graphics, feature set, level design, controls, and everything else -- it really is right at the top of the motorcycle racing game genre, up there with Moto Racer 1 and 2. It well might be my overall favorite motorcycle racing game, in fact.
I've never liked racing sims at all, pretty much, but on that note, NFS1 really isn't a sim. It has some sim elements, but it's not a full-on sim, it's also significantly arcadey. Saturn doesn't really have full-on racing sims, I think... the N64 has several, both F1 and car (normal racing or rally). And it has more futuristic racing games too, again much better on average, and more racing games total. Sure, I love Sega Rally and Daytona, but it's clear which is the better system overall for racing games.Quote:
This isn't about the PS , its about Saturn and N64 not that I even liked GT anyway (Toca World Tour and Toca II were far better sims imo) . I liked Need For Speed more than WDC yes and the 2 player mode in NSF to be utterly brilliant.
As for NFS1, as I've said, it's an okay game, but I'd rank it last of the first four NFS games... II, III, and High Stakes are all better games. High Stakes (PC ver.) is probably my favorite overall NFS game. It's either that or Hot Pursuit 2010.
Oh, and um, the N64 completely destroys the Saturn in terms of multiplayer racing games... about half of N64 racing games have four player modes, while there's only one such game on the Saturn, Street Racers, and it's a SNES up-port and wasn't released in the US. Also there is only one single N64 racing game which does not have multiplayer (one of the system's weakest racing games, F-1 Pole Position 64), while on Saturn (and, 1995-1997, the Playstation too) there are many racing games with no multiplayer. That is to say, even if there's one you like on Saturn, the N64 wins overall.
(Oh, and as for vaguely NFS-like racers on the N64, there's not a lot because EA's N64 support was abysmal apart from sports games, but they did publish Beetle Adventure Racing, which I've always thought of as playing sort of like NFS meets SF Rush. Very good game, though I do like the Rush series more. And yes, it has a solid 2 player race mode, and a 4 player battle mode too.)
Mass Destruction is a good game, sure, but it's certainly not as good as either Battletanx game. No multiplayer, either.Quote:
Think I'll stick with Gun Griffon series myself and it I really want a Tank fix I'll just play Mass Destruction .
Both systems are lacking in some genres, as I've said.Quote:
Again , This is Saturn and N64 not other machines . I was just making the point that we can all highlight the odd genre why a console is lacking when it suits us .
No, it has one, it just doesn't have gun support. Do games like Revolution X (on any system) or Midnight Raiders (Sega CD) not count as lightgun-style games just because they don't support guns? I think not.Quote:
It doesn't have any , which is the point I was making
Activision's Space Invaders remake was a good game, actually. Of course the N64 can't match the Saturn's shmups library, but the few it has are good.Quote:
Space Invaders , Lets not go there and I don't want to even try and begin to list the great Saturn 2D shooters ..
Ogre Battle 64's one of the best of the generation, but sure, there's not a lot beyond it.Quote:
Not on to much there are we ?. Think I stick with Shining Force and Dragon Force
I've never played any of the olympic/winter games style stuff on any of the consoles that generation or newer, so I can't comment on any of them. I can just say that I kind of liked Accolade's Winter Games and Summer Games (both for PC and Genesis) and Tiny Toon Adventures: Wacky Sports Challenge (SNES), but haven't really played any newer than those.Quote:
Athletics you know like Track and Field and Winter Olympic on the N64 is truly dire , Winter Heat pisses on it .
We do? I just said that overall the N64 Bomberman games are better than the one good Saturn one, though. And sure, it's good, but they are better overall. Much more variety of good games, too; the Saturn may have three Bomberman games, but only one is good. The N64 has four, all good. (This is one the Playstation actually loses, of course; it has only two, one good.)Quote:
Quite a few on the Saturn too and we all know no Bomberman on the N64 held a candle to the Saturn version
I would agree with this, just obviously not on the details. :)Quote:
Now I love the N64 and many of its games, but in a few genre it came way up short , that won't stop me loving the system though
At least Outrun had an actual series race, where you raced through multiple races in an attempt to win a championship, unlike far too many racing games from that era... and yeah, as I said earlier, it was great to finally see a good, accurate port of the game, yeah. It was needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
(Oh, and as for Genesis Outrun, I don't like Outrun or Turbo Outrun very much at all, but Outrun 2019's fantastic. It's one of Sega's only Genesis games with fake scaling at a decent framerate and with good visuals, too. As for OutRunners, it's really ugly looking, but surprisingly enough it actually is kind of fun to play...)
I've never found time attack modes interesting... I want to be racing against other players, not just the clock. That's why rally games, Pod/Wipeout/etc. for timetrials, and the like, which seem to be really popular in Europe, just never interested me... I find racing on an empty track, against only the clock, boring. Racing against others is what makes racing games fun. (And on that note, Trackmania games are better than most timetrial games in part because of the puzzle-like tracks, but also because you race against ghosts all the time, so you're never alone on the track, at least, even if it's not as exciting as a racing game against other cars.)Quote:
The idea of playing Sim Racers for years is a joke, they last a week. Beat the qualifying trials, buy a new car, beat the first circuit, buy a new car, beat the next circuit, buy a new car, beat the Champion mode, buy a new car, beat the unlocked Hard mode, win the super car, try a couple laps out with the super car, throw the game out. Who bothers refining his times on tedious "realistic" tracks that look like the road to one's supermarket? Rally games and Wipeout are made for time attack polishing, that's why they last for years.
I have always found realistic racing games uninteresting too, though, sure. :)
Quote:
Your SNES/Saturn comparison holds water only if your mean the best or above avg SNES games, the avg SNES or Genny platformer is rot.
This is true, yeah.Quote:
Tarzan on N64 and moreso on PS is an excellent game in the tradition of the 16 bit Disney vehicles so there's no shame in saying something doesn't live up to it.
Link to the Past's a good game, but I'm not nearly as much of a fan of it as some people. In the Zelda series, I'd rank OoT, LA, OoA, and TP all above it for sure. SS and OoS, maybe, too. It's a great game, but it was surpassed. (Oh, and LA is the best 2d Zelda game. :) )Quote:
A Link to the Past is superior to Soul Reaver and for that matter OoT; and if you want the unsettling atmosphere Blood Omen smokes it. I enjoy 3D games too but 3D doesn't automatically make anything better (for racing games it's the closest).
Wipeout 64 has graphics just as good as XL, except with much better analog controls, four player splitscreen, and better game design. Oh, and there might be less music in the soundtrack, but what is there is great. And as for link cable support... seriously, almost nobody ever used a link cable mode. Too high a barrier of entry. Heck, the Saturn versions of both Wipeout and XL don't even have multiplayer at all... I doubt many people cared, given that it was link cable only in both games on the PS1.Quote:
Wipeout 64 is not easily on par with XL, it has simplistic textures making it much harder to see in (or were you playing these games at PAL speed?), an inferior soundtrack and inferior audio both which make a big difference when polishing track records for several hours. Wipeout and iirc XL supported the link calbe for full screen 2P which for the game Wipeout is (a perfectionist's game) far outweighs 4P splitscreen, as if one can really find 3 other good racers who won't be hampered by playing on a kaleidoscoped screen. Anyway the first Wipeout is better than either.
Rush 2049 is not just one of the best racing games ever, it is the best game ever made in which you drive in vehicles. It's easily in my top five or ten best console games of all time, and as I say in my review in the other thread, my most played console game of all time, too. Utterly exceptional game in almost every way.Quote:
Rush 2049 is one of the absolute worst high profile racers ever, the Primal Rage of racing.
Oh, and as for Primal Rage, never cared about that one. The first San Francisco Rush, though, is one of the best arcade racing games ever made, hands down! Rush the Rock: Alcatraz Edition, even better. That well might be my all-time favorite arcade racing game. Awesome looking bright green cabinet, exceptional gameplay... doesn't get much better than that.
Bah, Croc is a good game! I've always liked it. I must say though, I've never played it on Saturn, only PC and Playstation. But it appears to be the same game, and I would like to get it for Saturn too.Quote:
You were correct about a couple things: Croc is certainly not a great game of any kind, and j factor's defence of the Saturn for its early death is nonsense.
You underrate DKR. It may not be quite as great as MK64, but still, it's a very good game, easily the generation's second best kart racing game I would say. I'd probably put Rare's other N64 kart racer, Mickey's Speedway USA, in third... not sure what next.Quote:
DKR is just horrid, with hideous levels, characters, audio, and a sickening degree of contrived kiddiness. Mario Kart 64 completely outclasses it.
It's always sad when you see someone bashing a great, great game like Paper Mario absolutely is... :(Quote:
Utter tosh. If this is a great RPG Albert Odyssey and MKR are masterpieces.
Every incredible game must have someone who hates it, I guess. As you just proved in your previous statement.Quote:
Superb game. Don't know what he's talking about either.
I agree about the Playstation crushing the competition in horror games, yeah. It has far, far more of them, and they're overall better too. Of course some of those games are multiplatform (RE games, Space Hulk, Blood Omen/Soul Reaver, Dino Crisis, etc.), but a bunch more aren't.Quote:
This category is PS all the way. Fear Effect 1 and 2 trump all the RE style games including Deep Fear, Blood Omen trumps the Castlevanias (though I think them at least equal to Soul Reaver), it has Silent Hill, more Clock Towers, Countdown Vampires, Vampire Hunter D, TRAG (RE mechanics if not properly horror). Creature Shock and Space Hulk are on both SS/PS; I believe there's a special edition of CS on Saturn but wouldn't imagine it adds anything much (may even have been the edition I played, I don't know the regular game well enough to have noticed). Saturn also has the eight disk Phantasm, PS the something Jin highschool terror games.
Pinball Quest was fun, yeah, but it's third party... but yes, you're right, Nintendo did publish Pinball. That's their one and only TV-console pinball game, I think.Quote:
What's this mean? Pinball Quest is highly notable and straight up Pinball was well regarded till later compilations emulated the original machine it's based on. Pinball's 1st party too, though I don't see how that matters.
Their handheld ones really can be great, though. Kirby's Pinball Land is one of the Game Boy's best games, and Revenge of the Gator's quite good too. Galactic Pinball on Virtual Boy's great as well. I don't think very much of Pokemon Pinball, though, and haven't played Pokemon Pinball 2 or Mario's Pinball Land on GBA, or Metroid Prime Pinball on DS.
Last I checked, roguelikes predate Final Fantasy. So it's even more traditional, really! :)Quote:
This game's like Torneko on the PS or Evolution on DC; few would call them traditional.
Bomberman Wars is a strategy game? Huh. Looked somewhat FMV-ish too, yes?Quote:
64 is cool. As a trivial point the Saturn also has Bomberman Wars, a sort of crossover into the strategy genre. I wouldn't recommend it but it's there.
It has experience points, dungeons, a materia-like badge system, and currency and shops, its an RPG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Whether its traditional enough for you is irrelevant to the original point.
Coming from the guy who brought up Gale Racer -_-Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Great we're playing that game again, where you rate every game on the counterargument 4 points lower than average and everything on your side of the argument 4 points higher than average, I say you're full of crap, you say its your opinion, I post loads of reviews scores backing me up, and you say the magazines were bought off -_-
Hybrid Heaven was a flawed game which was still entertaining, and still had a few good points here and there, I don't think anyone is making out that it was great, but I got some fun out of it and certainly would'nt consider it a bad game, let alone something which deserves a "dear god"
Again you have no argument so you resort to simply hating on games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
You didn't even get the name right.
I take it you've just joined the party, being that I've already stated repeatedly that Cruisin' USA was junk that nobody outside the US actually playedQuote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Outrun was a genre defining title for the 80s, it was amazing, Cruisin was an unnotable piece of crap when it came out, and it stayed that way.
Whether it was a hand-me-down or not makes very little difference, most kids who get hand-me-downs sit and spend tons of time with them, unless they're like 2 generation out of date at which point its often touch and go depending on the kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
Most kids with hand-me-downs also get a load of good games straight out, which were bought by older teenagers who have a better idea of what to buy, so its not like they don't experience good numbers of games either.
and even saying that most kids get their first console bought for them at around 10 or 11 in my experience.
Outrun doesn't even hold up that well against 4th generation games, you can't even do a U-turn ffs! you just drive forwards for 5 seconds, do a right turn for 5 seconds, do a left turn for 5 seconds, do a right turn identical to the last etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
Where it comes to longevity 4-player kart games outlast them all by a significant amount, I still play Mario Kart 64 with my friends every now and then and its been like 15 years since I bought it.Quote:
Originally Posted by starmist
Where it comes to time attack I think we're just of very differing outlooks, I can't think of anything more boring than playing the same course over, and over, and over trying the shave a second off my lap.
I could list 25-30 platform games on SNES which make the likes of Astal, Super Tempo, Keio, and Tryrush Deppy look pretty unremarkable without even breaking a sweat, outside of the graphics those games just aren't notable.Quote:
Originally Posted by starmist
Keeping in mind that I'm talking of most, not all Saturn 2D platformers, there are certainly a handful of Saturn platformers which are both much better graphically, and have nothing to be envious of SNES games in the gameplay department either.
the top down adventure games are similar too, Shining Wisdom especially looks ridiculous in comparison to SNES 2D adventure games, Story of Thor 2 holds up better, but I still don't think I'd put it higher than some of the best on SNES.
Its on par with the Saturn versionQuote:
Originally Posted by starmist
I don't agree, I don't find it hard to see in any version, but if anything its harder with pixelated graphics.Quote:
Originally Posted by starmist
I do have RGB, and S-Video set-up though
granted, though I still like the music regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by starmist
To be honest I think my perceived redundancy of the Saturn version isn't helping me rate it fairly against the N64 game, I only own the Saturn game for comparisons sake, prefering to play the Playstation game over it, whilst the N64 game feels like its own game (regardless of the fact that its actually mainly just remixes of Wipeout 1, and Wipeout XL courses), the increased speed, changed graphical style, and extra challenge mode help to differentiate it in my eyes.
On top of that though I feel that Wipeout 64 has the best analogue controls of the three games, and I think the splitscreen option is a great feature, you talk about link-up, but to be honest I don't see the chance of that happening as even remotely high in comparison to two player splitscreen on N64, in fact I'm not sure if I've ever even played any system outside of the Game Boy on system link in my entire life.
I didn't exactly say that, I said it wasn't in the running for being a great game.Quote:
Originally Posted by starmist
I think Croc is alright to be honest, the controls are a bit iffy, but the rest is entertaining enough, its not much competition in the eyes of an N64 owner though to be honest.
Mario Kart 64 only outclasses Diddy Kong if all you're doing is multiplayer, Mario Kart has a really, really bad single player, with ridiculous cheating AI (and its not even as though its hard to win, it just look ridiculous when you're boosting and there they are right next to you), less variety, its short, and there's no structure to hold it all together.Quote:
Originally Posted by starmist
I prefer Mario Kart 64 too, but thats just because of the multiplayer, I never, ever play Mario Kart 64 on single player anymore, whereas I'm quite happy to run through some levels on DKR on my own.
I know its probably just me, but the lack of good JRPGs (or any JRPGs if you like) is a huge plus. This is the worst gaming genre for me and i'm glad my N64 magazines weren't filled with obnoxious, weird characters and annoying little girls with bunny ears. Sure it had pokemon but it was only a couple of games and the franchise was more successful on the GB anyway..
I like N64 because it had the best FPS games and when i say FPS, i mean when FPS games were good with lots of things to do, they had exploration and less hand holding. Back then FPS games were more intelligent and interesting. Unfortunately Halo brought the genre back to the Wolfenstein era where you had nothing to do except killing stuff and even wolfenstein was better because it wasn't a straight path.... Anyway, Turok was above anything the 32 bit machines could handle and it was an early game. Goldeneye and Perfect Dark went a step beyond, even competing with the PC for the best FPS games. Doom 64 is the most unique and atmospheric port (although i didn't like how they tried to make the weapons look similar to Quake without animations).
N64 also had the best 3D platformers (Mario 64 and Banjo Kazooie pretty much made the genre and were the best ones on any platform). As for Horror games i loved Shadowman 64. It wasn't an exclusive but it was million times better than the awful PS port and almost as good as the Dreamcast one (with the expansion).
I also prefer F-Zero X to any other futuristic racer (im a fan of the genre). F-Zero X is more violent, faster, smoother and the death metal soundtrack is amazing. Who cares about the lack of backgrounds, the levels are supposed to be in the stratosphere (giving the game a fitting sense of isolation and lack of security, only you and 29 opponents who will fight to the death). The lack of weapons make the game more serious and actually more dangerous and violent as you have to use your own craft (and driving skill) to bump the opponents off the track and to their certain deaths.
What else, lets see... ah the Zelda games. I know that many here think they are overrated but they were still the best action adventures. Especially Majora's Mask. The darkest, most "adult" Zelda experience.
I applied to be a tester on this game. I never got an interview but I remember being disappointed with the game since it was from the developer of the quality Tetrisphere.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Yeah, I don't track people's preferences around here. Every N64 fan I have talked to around here called Cruis'n USA one of their favorite early N64 games. What few Arcades we have always have a version of Cruis'n in them. What I took issue with was you calling Outrun's first perfect home port "shovelware". So I brought up Cruis'n USA as a major early N64 title that is essentially a 3D clone of Outrun and probably nowhere near as good gameplay wise. While I would call most licensed games "shovelware" for not being very good, I can't see a classic's first true appearance on consoles as that. I would be even more inclined to call cyclical sequels shovelware even if the gameplay is generally as good as the original.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
I would also question how you feel about any number of SNES ports to the GBA, N64 ports to the DS, or PS2 ports to the PSP, and so on. Those games had already been available in true form on consoles but are generally fairly highly regarded in their regurgitated portable form.