What if Sega had quit the hardware business in `95?

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Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard

You realize those are omake tracks, right? Those aren't used in-game.

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She had long ears is the soundtrack for the boss battle.

Powerloop plays at the end of a level, after you've completed it.

Wakeup Nights plays when your game is over.


These are all songs that sound exactly the same as when you are playing the game. If you pop this CD in your PC, it'll show the songs as soundtracks in the list, just as it does when you pop in the CD for Wipeout.

You can tell when the music is midi, or from the CD, when you play the game.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

No. Some of the music comes directly from the disc. Just pop it into your PC and you'll hear over a dozen different music tracks including She had long ears and hehehe. Yeah, there are some midi tracks in the game, but you'll find it's about 60/40 in favor for the CD tracks.

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All the main stages in the game are Midi its just the title screens and most of the boss stages that use CD audio you'll find

Bumping this cz I'm still interested in the subject.

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Originally Posted by Sheath

These sound about right, though I'm not sure why Sega would have focused on making such new games at all without the console they were designed for.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Then most of those games on the list wouldn't be made . No Nights , no Shenmue, No Sonic R that's fore sure . Those are games made to sell your console and where the funding will only come from being 1st party

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I never agreed with this train of thought, after all Sega's foremost a software company (or has professed that's the case) and their post hardware output has affirmed they will create new franchises without a machine of their own to play them on. So I'm curious why you two felt as you did.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

Bumping this cz I'm still interested in the subject.

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So am I.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

I never agreed with this train of thought, after all Sega's foremost a software company (or has professed that's the case) and their post hardware output has affirmed they will create new franchises without a machine of their own to play them on. So I'm curious why you two felt as you did.

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Yu Suzuki is on the record explaining why he left the company shortly after they went third party. As a software publisher Sega has done what all software publishers eventually do. As a hardware manufacturer Suzuki would design the game first and then have Sega's engineers design the hardware he wanted. As a software engineer Sega would only approve game designs that had pre-existing marketing research to support them. As a result, Sega doesn't make new games anymore, and new games is all Yu Suzuki ever made and all that really defined Sega as a great software developer.

Sonic R was developed by Traveler's Tales, and was fairly mediocre. Given Sega's track record so far with the hedgehog, I think it's fair to say that after quitting the hardware business Sonic R definitely still could have happened. NiGHTS, Panzer Dragoon and Shenmue though, probably not.

I don't think that it would have been good for Sega to quit in '95. What I think, like so many people said before, was to not do so much stupid things in the mid 90's with the Saturn, 32X and Sega Cd. The 32X didn't even need to exist in the first place, and the Sega CD would have been fucking awesome if Sega focused on making actual games instead of FMV bullshit. Just look at how well the PCengine CD did in Japan. Lots of actual games, not so much FMV shit. Just imagine if there was an exclusive Streets of Rage or Shinobi game that used the new hardware like the scaling and rotation with a totally badass soundtrack, or a second Sonic game on the Sega CD? What about getting a Contra title? Megaman? Hell, REALLY wishful thinking here, but what about a Rocket Knight title? It honestly would have helped. Real games, not FMV crap.

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Originally Posted by 16-bit

Just look at how well the PCengine CD did in Japan. Lots of actual games, not so much FMV shit.

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The PCE CD has loads of anime based games that fall into the game classes of text adventure, P&C, or RPG--much of the time with lots of cutscenes and largely unsuited to their cartoon basis. Whether those are shovelware depends on each specific game but they're hardly less alamode than the SCD's FMV stuff; the bigger difference is drawings look better with a limited palette than does live footage. All the same I'm not so far apart from you here, the SCD was badly under/misused.

@ sheath = That research requisite partly reflects the market, nor am I of the belief every single thing Sega ever created once upon a time was wholly uninfluenced by preexisting games. Are titles like Billy Hatcher, Monkey Ball, or even Valkyria Chronicles substantially trendier (safer) than Sonic, Shinobi, and Shining Force? I think not. Was Shenmue truly ahead of its time or was it just the first wave of an obviously inevitable storm? I go with the latter. I'd even say Nights Journey was practically launching a new IP given how small the Saturn's user base had been and the span of time elapsed since Sega put it to death.

To combine your and 16-bit's thoughts re Panzer Dragoon it could still have been made and published as a safe (~ish) corollary to Star Fox's commercial success. Nights would've been a very safe IP on the 64 due to its child appeal, 3D showcase, and the system's extremely thin library. It would've looked gash though.

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Originally Posted by Gogogadget

In 1995, a Neo Geo Sonic game would of never happened, the AES wasn't exactly a roaring success, the prospect of Sonic on the Playstation or N64 would of left a bad taste in many fans mouths at the time, I could imagine :P

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Well, we are talking about an alternate universe, so maybe in that reality the NEOGEO CD was more successful.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

I never agreed with this train of thought, after all Sega's foremost a software company (or has professed that's the case) and their post hardware output has affirmed they will create new franchises without a machine of their own to play them on. So I'm curious why you two felt as you did.

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I fail to believe that Sega was mainly software. Like other mentioned since Sega was originally an arcade developer/manufacturer they had a lot of experience on the hardware side.

If they had stopped that much sooner and not been flush with cash, they probably would have been a prime takeover target for someone like Sony who had deep pockets and was just entering the market. Heck, with arcades on the decline a takeover (ala Sammy) seems like it was in the cards for them no matter what.

Realistically without hardware and arcades back at that time, many of the Sega staff would have left. While someone like Yuji Naka or Rieko Kodama would most likely to stay since they were worked mainly on console games and would have adapted to the situation, Yu Suzuki however would leave if the design wasn't done by Sega (he loved the various arcade machines, the Saturn and worked on a couple of Dreamcast games). If it happened, anything that Yu Suzuki done after 1995 for Sega wouldn't happen so that meant no Virtua Fighter sequels, no Shenmue, no F355 Challenge, no OutRun 2.

It depends on which alternate universe cause there are lots of options and it also depends whether Sega's arcade division would be still around otherwise the arcade games wouldn't be mostly affected just missing the STV games and ports done on their consoles. I know that it would cause many games and consoles to not exist, especially if there were no arcade games even though I think that Sega of America and Sega of Japan would have split with the former changing its name to something "American" anyway. Using my imagination like some people did earlier...

Daytona USA (1996) [PS, 3DO, N64 launch title]

On the 3DO, it was a commerial failure due to that not only the 3DO sales were weak but also that it was only released in Japan despite being the closest port to the arcade. The PS1 version was compared to Ridge Racer (as with the arcade version) but the graphics were cutdown and longer loading times, it was a best seller especially in Europe. The N64 port was not handled by Sega but was ported by someone else and like the Saturn version [that doesn't exist here] it was rushed to meet with the Christmas deadline but instead of the graphics while blurry was fairly close to the Model 2 the gameplay was messed up due to the fog and slowdown, however it still sold more copies than the 3DO version. Due to sales of Daytona USA on the PS, the clone Burning Road doesn't exist and future Daytona games were released on the PS only however they became more like Ridge Racer to compete with sales. Later on, they were renamed due to EA getting the NASCAR license. Sega eventually made different racing games and while Sega Rally didn't compete with V-Rally in terms of sales, it was the better game by fans even though it was an arcade port and rally games were successful in Europe so the game still made Platinum. Sega Rally 2 however changed (not like the Sega Rally 2 that we know) by making it having both an arcade mode "Sega Rally with 2 more tracks" and a mode that is similar to Colin McRae Rally. Scud Race was the most successful racing game that Sega bought out with both the N64 and the PS ports being well made and pushed the systems (this Scud Race has more tracks and features), the N64 version called it the best racing game on the console to the point that EA cloned it in Need for Speed 4.

Virtua Cop [PS]

Sega waited until Namco released Time Crisis and they released Virtua Cop with both an arcade and a console mode. To be honest it would rather be like the Saturn version except with weaker loading times and slightly worse graphics. Since Namco was popularising the Guncon/G-Con 45 gun, the game became a success but not enough to make a sequel. Sega did make gun games including a compliation of Sega Master System Light Phaser games with Shooting Master though.

Virtua Fighter [PS US/Euro launch title]

This was the only game that Yu Suzuki partly worked on the PS due to he was annoyed by the limitations and the only reason why was pressure. Luckily though the port was decent and sold well compared to Tekken, it not only had the original mode but also the Remix graphics due to a magazine complained about the awful graphics when compared to Tekken when previewed. Since the 32x and the Saturn versions don't exist, AM2 spent a year getting the version right. Still it was more successful than Toshiden. It was considered to be developed on the SNES as Virtua Fighter FX but costs as well as Sega didn't have a license to develop on Nintendo's consoles at the time caused it to be cancelled.

Virtua Fighter 2 [PS]

The arcade game was the last game done by Yu Suzuki as he left Sega to go elsewhere as he refused to develop on the PS (after his experience with the first game), 3DO, N64 and the PC even though AM2 still existed without him so the port was while internal didn't have his expert knowledge. As a result, the port was poorer and was rushed in Japan to the point of a product recall since the game crashed half way though the game. This damaged the reputation of the game and to say sorry for Western markets, Sega had to release a bug fixed version with the 1.2 features from the arcade as well as having an option whether to focus on frame rate (50/60fps but with worse graphics) or better graphics with a worse framerate. Japanese imported the American version since Sega couldn't release the updated version in Japan losing them money. Basically Japan = 1.0, US/Europe = 1.2

Virtua Fighter 3 [PS, N64]

The first Virtua Fighter game that AM2 worked on without Yu Suzuki and as a result, the quality dropped and while the N64 version was slightly better it was censored. Sadly after delays the game was released too late in late 1998, people got fed up and the series became cancelled until much later.

Sonic the Hedgehog

There were development problems regarding Sonic, originally Sega released a port of Sonic 3 and Knuckles (as Sonic 3 Deluxe) on the PS however the game was blocked by SCEA since it was 2D and there weren't any new features. Sonic 3 Deluxe got a decent review in Europe at a budget price (£19.99 in the UK) but sales were poor when compared to Mickey's Wild Adventure (Mickey Mania) and Crash Bandicoot even though people called it the best Sonic 3 experience due to better graphics and sound. Realtime Associates ported Sonic 3 Deluxe to the SNES at late 1996 as it was the earliest that Sega could get a license to develop on Nintendo's console but it was a failure both in sales and that the port had some problems of its own. Sega was desperate to make a new good Sonic game so they tried to work on Sonic X-treme but the events still happened. They tried to consider Sonic Jam to get a way round releasing Sonic 3 Deluxe but the demand was poor in Japan as well as the country fiasco even though Sega was really passionate with the hedgehog. Sega wanted to develop a 3D Sonic game and Yuji Naka/Naoto Oshima worked together after NiGHTS to see if they came up with an idea, they did as Virtua Sonic since they got AM2 with them as co-developers and they wanted their reputation to go up to how it was before Yu Suzuki left. It got delayed and delayed, it was released in 2000. It was a hidden gem but sales were so poor that the development cost more than the returns. As a result, the Sonic series became quickly forgotten and places like Hardcore Gaming were talking how obscure that Sonic was after his Mega Drive/Genesis days.

Sega Arcade Collection (Sega Ages) [PS, N64]

In Japan, they were sold seperately, in Europe it was bundled like the Capcom Generations pack due to concerns in the import section of magazines so Sega Europe responded with a complete set (some that were seperate discs were brought together) and in America there was a compliation (same as the Sega Ages that was released on the Saturn) but Working Designs handled it and became a collective piece due to that Sega of America wasn't interested. The PS releases were Fantasy Zone, Space Harrier, OutRun, Turbo OutRun, Power Drift, Hang-On/Super Hang-On/GP Rider, Virtua Racing Deluxe (graphics of the arcade but with features of the 32X version), After Burner, Flicky/Doki Doki Penguin Land/Pengo/Ali-Baba/Zaxxon/Zoom 909 set, Monaco GP/Enduro Racer/Action Fighter set, Riot City/Dynamite Dux, Thunder Blade, Alex Kidd: The Lost Stars, Shinobi/Shadow Dancer, Wonder Boy/Wonder Boy in Monster Land/Wonder Boy III: Monster Lair. The releases were so successful in Japan due to the cheap price that Sega were investing in setting up a PC online service that provided games to download (think Steam but in 1999). Even though in the beginning Sega started with single games until people overseas complained about old games without bundling. The N64 batch was just Space Harrier, After Burner and Virtua Racing (non-Deluxe) in one cartridge due to costs/cartridge space even though OutRun and Fantasy Zone were planned. OutRun got dropped due to slight delays (after all OutRun was one of the earliest games) and Sega couldn't get a Ferrari license in time so Virtua Racing ended up instead. PC got everything and more.

Metropolis Street Racer [PS2 launch title, moved from PS]

Believe it or not in this alternate universe, Bizzare Creations still worked on this game while working on the Formula One games for Sony and it ended up being very close to the actual release except that the Richard Jacques soundtrack no longer is around, the graphics are worse and has slowdown. However instead of published by Sega, it was published by Psygnosis and it was their last published game before becoming Studio Liverpool. Due to that Gran Turismo 3 was delayed, it was a stop gap that sold decently but not enough to make sequels. Project Gotham Racing doesn't exist as a concequence of Sony owning the copyrights.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

The PCE CD has loads of anime based games that fall into the game classes of text adventure, P&C, or RPG--much of the time with lots of cutscenes and largely unsuited to their cartoon basis. Whether those are shovelware depends on each specific game but they're hardly less alamode than the SCD's FMV stuff; the bigger difference is drawings look better with a limited palette than does live footage. All the same I'm not so far apart from you here, the SCD was badly under/misused.

@ sheath = That research requisite partly reflects the market, nor am I of the belief every single thing Sega ever created once upon a time was wholly uninfluenced by preexisting games. Are titles like Billy Hatcher, Monkey Ball, or even Valkyria Chronicles substantially trendier (safer) than Sonic, Shinobi, and Shining Force? I think not. Was Shenmue truly ahead of its time or was it just the first wave of an obviously inevitable storm? I go with the latter. I'd even say Nights Journey was practically launching a new IP given how small the Saturn's user base had been and the span of time elapsed since Sega put it to death.

To combine your and 16-bit's thoughts re Panzer Dragoon it could still have been made and published as a safe (~ish) corollary to Star Fox's commercial success. Nights would've been a very safe IP on the 64 due to its child appeal, 3D showcase, and the system's extremely thin library. It would've looked gash though.

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The FMV thing is pure conjecture. That format could have taken off if the production values were higher, as the current reigning 3D era of "play it for you" games proves. All any of these companies can do is introduce a new idea and go on the public/media reception, or spends more money than most games are worth in focus studies before even conceiving a game. The later produces endless droves of mundane games.

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Originally Posted by sheath

The FMV thing is pure conjecture.

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Which thing, some part of what I said or 16-bit's stance?
Production values meaning acting, script, focus, &c or the machine's ability to render them (compression format, palette, &c)? I don't disagree it could've taken off but at the very least it would've required a machine of 3DO calibre with games of at least the 3DO's best in quality. Obviously something so well executed as Snatcher would've sold given cinema footage over cartoons. Surprising more light gun games weren't made on half decade old flicks, say Total Recall with action footage chopped up into shooting sequences and escape QTEs.

@ Furnessly: Thanks for the big post. I believe you're right, Sega would've lost many staff (though they may actually have during the Saturn years, I don't read up on that kind of thing). The compilation sounds dead on as does Virtua Cop being lost in the wide PS lightgun selection. And that would be some masterful coding to make Daytona run on a 3DO.;)

If they had quit in 95 we wouldn't of got Nights Into Dreams, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Shenmue, Jet Set Radio, Skies Of Arcadia and so many other classic titles that didn't sell massively.

The Mega CD was a mistake just as the 32X was. It was overpriced, hard to program for and considering it was a 16 bit machine was launched to late. Sega's biggest mistake though was the release of the Saturn which was just to early. They just didn't have a single processor available to them at the time which was fast and powerful enough at an affordable price and the same was the case with a GPU. 1996 however would of been too late and i feel that a September 95 Japan launch would of been ideal. That would of put it 9 months after the PS but 9 months before the N64. And i mean not launching Saturn in September 95 but launching a 32 bit machine with the best affordable tech to them at that time. They shouldn't of starting any production on a 32 bit machine until the end of 1993 when they had access to the full specs of the Playstation which they could of then set their sights on making a machine to counter it or at least match it. 9 months after the PS is nothing and that's closer than The SNES launch was to the Megadrive/Genesis. And considering the 32 bit gen didn't really kick in until xmas 1996 Sega would of had the time to launch by then worldwide.

Launching around this time would of allowed them to use better hardware like say the Power PC 602 which i think launched around June and was described as ideally suited for a games console but was never used. Also instead of turning down SGI they would of had more time to ask them to improve it or worked with them to improve it for their Sept 95 launch. I'm sure with a setup something like this a 299.99 Dollars/Pounds price would of been achievable when they launched in the US & Europe in say July 96 and the better simpler setup coupled with good SDK's would of meant they had strong 3rd party support throughout it's lifespan. And of course Model 2 conversions would of been alot better especially Daytona USA.

Just out of curiosity what was available around Sept 95 GPU wise? If Sega had made an exclusive deal with them could they of got a stripped down R3D/100 or PowerVR PCX1 instead of the 1996 time that they eventually came out?

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Originally Posted by StarMist

Which thing, some part of what I said or 16-bit's stance?
Production values meaning acting, script, focus, &c or the machine's ability to render them (compression format, palette, &c)? I don't disagree it could've taken off but at the very least it would've required a machine of 3DO calibre with games of at least the 3DO's best in quality. Obviously something so well executed as Snatcher would've sold given cinema footage over cartoons. Surprising more light gun games weren't made on half decade old flicks, say Total Recall with action footage chopped up into shooting sequences and escape QTEs.

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The better FMV games use cartoons and pre-rendered backgrounds, the Sega CD versions wouldn't necessarily have been the best it could have kept up with the genre. Add the 32X and between the 32X CD and 3DO there might have been a mighty war of QTEs and shooting sequences. With proper compression they might have even managed some other forms of gameplay. Either way, if FMV games had used good CGI instead of live actors the whole genre would be seen differently today, because that's exactly what the PS1 did minus including any actual gameplay.

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Originally Posted by SonicTheHedgehog

If they had quit in 95 we wouldn't of got Nights Into Dreams, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Shenmue, Jet Set Radio, Skies Of Arcadia and so many other classic titles that didn't sell massively.

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Every one of these games is arguably viable on mass market terms. PDS and Skies are RPGs, which sell perfectly fine and are only a concern when companies feel obliged to overspend to the degree they can only recoup their money by selling into eight figures. JSR is effectively an adventure game like Okami despite the cleavage into levels, there's no reason to expect it to sell so poorly as it did (should've been a blockbuster) so Sega would've produced and published it in any circumstance. Shenmue's a sandbox adventure game; these are popular; would probably get delayed on another console but would eventually be published, especially once online play became more prevalent. NiGHTS is the only tricky game since it's such a score rush, but I could see it getting a lot of courtship for the N64 where it'd stand out for several reasons not least of which was the library's size. It also is transparently unfinished; the more finish the more appeal it would have had since the lacking areas would have gone towards rewards/replayability (cf Christmas Nights and Nights Journey).

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Originally Posted by sheath

Either way, if FMV games had used good CGI instead of live actors the whole genre would be seen differently today, because that's exactly what the PS1 did minus including any actual gameplay.

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Which PS titles were those with no gameplay?

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Originally Posted by StarMist

Which PS titles were those with no gameplay?

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Not the games, the heavy dependence on CGI FMV cutscenes.