Sonic 3&K questions

I've been playing this more than I have in the past, but I still wonder:

--When running / rolling through loops: Why does the character often mess up, if you hold the D-pad down? In all other Sonic games, holding down will at least NOT make a problem, but will keep Sonic spinning and probably gaining speed. In S3&K loops, holding down will often make the character stop in place, when he should be rolling along. S3&K was supposed to iron out so many glitches, but I wonder if this is a glitch? Or maybe the developers wanted to penalize the player for touching the D-pad at all, during the loops sequences? What do you guys think?

--Sonic 2 was famous for Chemical Plant Zone, endless loops and springs. Sonic would run so fast that he would start to fly off screen for a split second, now and then. It was a great effect that is completely absent in S3&K. Instead the characters almost always stay very centered in the same place on-screen, no matter how fast they go. Why was the great effect left out of S3&K???

--Oh and does Knuckles look pink to everyone or is it just me? lol WTF (I cranked up the tint on my TV and made him solid red.)

--I think I always heard that in S3&K, Sonic is the fastest character, i.e. his top speed is slightly faster than that of Tails and Knuckles. I can't see a difference in top speed personally; I always wondered if Sonic was actually faster or not? Does anyone know for sure if the top speeds are different? Anyone measured it somehow? Also, if Sonic is truly fastest, then are Tails and Knuckles the same top speed, or is one of them faster?

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Originally Posted by Ecco

I've been playing this more than I have in the past, but I still wonder:

--When running / rolling through loops: Why does the character often mess up, if you hold the D-pad down? In all other Sonic games, holding down will at least NOT make a problem, but will keep Sonic spinning and probably gaining speed. In S3&K loops, holding down will often make the character stop in place, when he should be rolling along. S3&K was supposed to iron out so many glitches, but I wonder if this is a glitch? Or maybe the developers wanted to penalize the player for touching the D-pad at all, during the loops sequences? What do you guys think?

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I know this occurs right when you're about to launch off one of the ramps in Ice Cap. It's designed for running instead of rolling to reach one of the platforms that are high. Don't roll or let go of the d-pad if you're already rolling. Let your character go into run mode if he hits a bump (like the bridge). There is one other spot in Mushroom Hill act 1 that does this as well (beginning of the segment has red spring in the wall). However, this problem doesn't occur often to me (I've literally beaten it over 100 times) overall and I can increase speed while holding down. Do you also hold right while your character is spinning? That possibly could contribute to the glitches.

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Originally Posted by Ecco

--Sonic 2 was famous for Chemical Plant Zone, endless loops and springs. Sonic would run so fast that he would start to fly off screen for a split second, now and then. It was a great effect that is completely absent in S3&K. Instead the characters almost always stay very centered in the same place on-screen, no matter how fast they go. Why was the great effect left out of S3&K???

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This isn't an effect. The screen simply couldn't keep up with Sonic because of the amount of speed accumulated from all the loops (particularly that one segment that had a chain of loops). Sonic greatly accumulates speed on the loops that shoot him downward. There is no speed cap like there is in Sonic 1, save for spinning, which never had one in the first place. I once got stuck in a corner of a loop in Chemical Plant because I was going too fast. I did zip fast in S3K to the point where the screen couldn't keep up like in Sonic 2 and it was scrolling pretty fast to catch up but that was because I hit a wall glitch and warped further into the level. So it's possible to trigger it.

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Originally Posted by Ecco

--Oh and does Knuckles look pink to everyone or is it just me? lol WTF (I cranked up the tint on my TV and made him solid red.)

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It's just you.

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Originally Posted by Ecco

--I think I always heard that in S3&K, Sonic is the fastest character, i.e. his top speed is slightly faster than that of Tails and Knuckles. I can't see a difference in top speed personally; I always wondered if Sonic was actually faster or not? Does anyone know for sure if the top speeds are different? Anyone measured it somehow? Also, if Sonic is truly fastest, then are Tails and Knuckles the same top speed, or is one of them faster?

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This is true. Try the Mushroom Hill Zone test in super or hyper form. Find a ramp that leads to a cliff with that nub sticking out (you can use the last ramp of the entire level which is located in Act 2. It's the one that leads right to the fight with Robotnik and has a Mushroom Launcher and a red spring at the bottom). Though the test is in super form, it still reflects how the characters differ in speed. Sonic will be able to run up the wall, get flung back by the nub that sticks out but will recover and proceed to the platform at the top of the cliff. With Knuckles, he runs up the wall more slowly and simply gets rejected by the nub. Tails has the fastest acceleration out of all characters. This is even evident in non-super form. Tails will run up the wall faster than Knuckles but will get rejected like Knuckles. Maybe I should make a video of this since this post probably isn't that clear. It's been a long ass time since I did this experiment so I'll do it again to make sure. Sonic has highest top speed. Tails has fastest acceleration. Knuckles has ??? Probably a balance between the two. His hops suck that's for sure.

Knuckles certainly has a weaker acceleration and jump. In Sonic 3 he is pink, but significantly redder in Sonic and Knuckles. I remember the childhood debates over whether Knuckles was a boy or girl because he appeared pink in Sonic 3.

I remember how awesome I felt when I first played as Knuckles in Sonic 2. It was like a dream come true: Gliding around everywhere, climbing to places I didn't even know existed with such ease. And then I got to the third boss and quit playing as Knuckles altogether. :?

http://images.wikia.com/sonic/images..._Ruin_Boss.png

Actually, all the characters have exactly the same speed/acceleration stats in single player unless you've turned super.

Hyper Knuckles, Super Knuckles and Super Tails all have the same stats as each other, which are worse in pretty much every regard than Super or Hyper Sonic (which again have the same stats as each other).

The stats also vary in Competition mode, but I can't remember the details of that exactly (save that the controls feel terrible for all three).

Knuckles' jump is indeed lower in SP, and this is of course the crutch used for keeping out of Sonic's routes most of the time.

Interestingly, in Sonic's cutscenes in S&K, Knuckles retains his pink colouration from Sonic 3 - if you use debug mode to play as Knuckles in Sonic's version of Sky Sanctuary, you can see both colour schemes together. There is no technical reason why his pink colours in cutscenes couldn't have been updated, though it would have been more difficult to fix his yellow socks. His old pinks are also used in graphics on the special stage results screens.

I don't know why there would be more issues with getting stuck rolling compared to earlier games - all I can think of is that much of the terrain is a little more naturalistic than previously but that doesn't really apply to most of the places you'd get stuck in Icecap. I don't know of any change to the engine that would have caused this. That said, I rarely have an issue apart from a few specific places.

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

I remember how awesome I felt when I first played as Knuckles in Sonic 2. It was like a dream come true: Gliding around everywhere, climbing to places I didn't even know existed with such ease. And then I got to the third boss and quit playing as Knuckles altogether. :?

http://images.wikia.com/sonic/images..._Ruin_Boss.png

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It's not that hard to beat that boss lol. The best trick is to jump up on top of one of the pillars when they're rising up and then just glide punch him and bounce back to the pillar. When he tries you hammer you just jump up and bounce off him, by the time you land the hammer won't hurt you any more. Alternatively you can attack from the arrow pictured in the screen shot. Either way, it's not difficult to beat that boss with Knuckles' lower jump. Now, the final boss - that's a little harder, you have to really time your jumps there.

The bug that causes you to stop in a loop has to do with how the engine translates horizontal velocity into vertical velocity. You only retain your velocity if the collision step is small enough for Sonic to overcome in a single frame. Thats why you don't go sticking to walls when you run at them full speed. If you enter a loop moving too fast, you can have sonic step through a portion of the loop, which, upon the solidity check, will return that the change in angle is too great, and it'll treat that part of the slope as a solid wall instead of a curved surface. All 3 sonic games, plus Sonic CD, do this.

The reason the screen doesn't keep up with Sonic in Sonic 2 is because, when running, Sonic had a speed cap in Sonic 1, which the screen's horizontal movement was tied to. Sonic 2 removed the speed cap, but did not update the method by which the screen repositioned itself, thus you could out run the screen. Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles use a different method of positioning the screen, hence why the bug is harder to achieve. It's not an intended effect.

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Originally Posted by Tiddles

Actually, all the characters have exactly the same speed/acceleration stats in single player unless you've turned super.

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I disagree. Tails also had faster acceleration in Sonic 2. Perhaps they did this in the first place to help the CPU Tails keep up with Sonic in single player mode.

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Originally Posted by Tiddles

The stats also vary in Competition mode, but I can't remember the details of that exactly (save that the controls feel terrible for all three).

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You are Korrect.

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Originally Posted by Tiddles

Knuckles' jump is indeed lower in SP, and this is of course the crutch used for keeping out of Sonic's routes most of the time.

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The most notorious crutch is killing the final boss in Sonic 2. Requires much more patience and is a bit more difficult than with Sonic or Tails.

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Originally Posted by Tiddles

Interestingly, in Sonic's cutscenes in S&K, Knuckles retains his pink colouration from Sonic 3 - if you use debug mode to play as Knuckles in Sonic's version of Sky Sanctuary, you can see both colour schemes together. There is no technical reason why his pink colours in cutscenes couldn't have been updated, though it would have been more difficult to fix his yellow socks. His old pinks are also used in graphics on the special stage results screens.

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Yeah. They are their normal green when playing as Knuckles alone. Seems more than a palette limitation issue. I've level selected to Sky Sanctuary (Sonic & Tails' version of the level) like you have and both Knuckles appeared; the CPU one with yellow socks and my Knuckles with the normal green socks.

It could be possible that knuckles was pink back in the alpha/beta days? And then they just updated the colors to red on the title screen and when he is a playable character, and forgot these other sections:

Underwater knukcles is pink, some more than others.. I think Hidrocity is the most pink he gets;
Results screen 'check' things are pink;
NPC knukcles is pink (cutscenes).

lol theories :p

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Originally Posted by Jorge Nuno

It could be possible that knuckles was pink back in the alpha/beta days? And then they just updated the colors to red on the title screen and when he is a playable character, and forgot these other sections:

Underwater knukcles is pink, some more than others.. I think Hidrocity is the most pink he gets;
Results screen 'check' things are pink;
NPC knukcles is pink (cutscenes).

lol theories :p

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That reminds me of the underwater green Sonic in Angel Island. :p

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Originally Posted by arnold_the_bartender

However, this problem doesn't occur often to me (I've literally beaten it over 100 times) overall and I can increase speed while holding down. Do you also hold right while your character is spinning? That possibly could contribute to the glitches.

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Hard to say if I hold exactly down or diagonally down...? Would that really make a difference, I wonder? Also, this happens to me all the time in S3&K; It's not just one or two places for me; It's the whole game! I'm getting in the habit of not touching the D-pad at all, if he's going thru loops. Since holding down often makes him stop in the middle of the sequence. And holding forward will often mess up the sequence since he often changes which direction is forward -- for example, if you run left and hold left, then hit a spring to go right, then you just slowed him down by holding left.

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Originally Posted by Tiddles

Interestingly, in Sonic's cutscenes in S&K, Knuckles retains his pink colouration from Sonic 3 - if you use debug mode to play as Knuckles in Sonic's version of Sky Sanctuary, you can see both colour schemes together. There is no technical reason why his pink colours in cutscenes couldn't have been updated, though it would have been more difficult to fix his yellow socks. His old pinks are also used in graphics on the special stage results screens.

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Why would it have been hard to fix his yellow socks?

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Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard

The bug that causes you to stop in a loop has to do with how the engine translates horizontal velocity into vertical velocity. You only retain your velocity if the collision step is small enough for Sonic to overcome in a single frame. Thats why you don't go sticking to walls when you run at them full speed. If you enter a loop moving too fast, you can have sonic step through a portion of the loop, which, upon the solidity check, will return that the change in angle is too great, and it'll treat that part of the slope as a solid wall instead of a curved surface. All 3 sonic games, plus Sonic CD, do this.

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Yeah that makes sense, that some inclines make him stop, bc the game thinks he's running into a wall. That's pretty much what I thought; what a shame that it happens. I have not noticed this problem in Sonic 1, 2, or Sonic CD (although I consider all Sonic games to be somewhat glitchy). I often hold down to spin, when going through loops, and it always works right in those games. Also, not sure exactly what u meant about stepping thru a loop, or what a solidity check is?

I have no idea then why you're running into this problem constantly since it hasn't been much of a problem for me. I've hit more glitches in Sonic 2 (it has the largest amount of bugs/glitches of all the Genesis Sonic games unfortunately). Thankfully Sonic Team released the revision which got rid of that Super Sonic bug at the act end sign. Getting stuck there always pissed me off.

^Yeah I remember that Sonic 2 Super Sonic glitch at the act end sign. :( They made a revision of Sonic 2?????

As for why the S3&K loops glitch happens to me a lot, well it is my least-played of all the 16-bit Sonic games, so that's probably why. lol I haven't figured out yet exactly why and how it happens so much for me, but not in the other Sonic games...

^ Perhaps because S&K is so much bigger, slower, and harder than the others: there are more opportunites and you'd be more likely to try to hurry through sections, especially after having been hit or slowed down by missing a jump, by spin dashing. That could apply to 3 as well but iirc you were one of those people (rather like myself) who couldn't believe anybody liked the game when you first saw how esteemed it is online. I find it to happen fairly often in 2, especially Chemical Plant--which is unrelated to outrunning the screen.
There's also a general hitch in Sonic games to initiating a spin dash within a loop or on an incline, where Sonic (or whoever) will catch at the first bit of upslope (my guess is that this is due to too much speed for the flat-to-curved transition, basically like the screen outrunning problem).
As to Knuckles's pinkness, you do mean a reddish pink, right, not carnation pink? I'd call him raspberry coloured myself. If a lighter hue then you're on your own. But iirc (again) didn't you state somewhere you have a mild colour blindness or associated problem? Or it could just be your colour settings on your monitor. Nonetheless I doubt anybody sees him as stopsign red.

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Originally Posted by QuickSciFi

I remember how awesome I felt when I first played as Knuckles in Sonic 2. It was like a dream come true: Gliding around everywhere, climbing to places I didn't even know existed with such ease. And then I got to the third boss and quit playing as Knuckles altogether. :?

http://images.wikia.com/sonic/images..._Ruin_Boss.png

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It seems most of the bosses are at least a little harder with Knuckles particularly the Metropolis one.

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Originally Posted by StarMist

^ Perhaps because S&K is so much bigger, slower, and harder than the others: there are more opportunites and you'd be more likely to try to hurry through sections, especially after having been hit or slowed down by missing a jump, by spin dashing. That could apply to 3 as well but iirc you were one of those people (rather like myself) who couldn't believe anybody liked the game when you first saw how esteemed it is online. I find it to happen fairly often in 2, especially Chemical Plant--which is unrelated to outrunning the screen.

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I believe I have had the stop rolling loop glitch before on Angel Island or whatever the first stage is and I know I have quite a few times on Mushroom Hill, each time at a 45 degree angle.
I've experienced this several times too at Chemical Plant and most of the time its the walk inside the wall glitch.