Is traditional gaming a lost art?

I found out that one of my favorite gaming stores is closing. McVan's is closing all three stores in FT. Wayne, Indiana claiming the loss of traditional gaming.

I though about it for a while and understood with Wii classic downloads, playing backups on 3DO, Dreamcast, Sega CD, emulators on the Playstation 3, Xbox 360, multi-carts for about every cart system. It hit me maybe they were on to something.

I have over a dozen systems and bunches of games for them but I still find myself playing on emulators just to save a little time.

I am not very tech savy but using the tools others have provided even I made a couple Dreamcast emulator discs. So that tells me others are doing the sameAttachment 5138.

Sorry the pic is very good but I said I am not much of a tech person.

So does anyone put an orginal cart or disc in their systems anymore or is traditional gaming gone the way of the dinosaur?

traditional gaming is and will only grow. because in recent years the bsuiness has grown so much new gamers will want to try out old stuff as well. although this can mostly be done by rereleasing stuff on psn or xbox live for the real diehards there will always be a market. retro gaming prices have really gone up in recent years despite the crisis.

the only time i dont play original carts is when im travelling and play my caanoo

He's probably more worried about the future of games going digital whether we like it or not, rather than emulators of classic games. People who emulate are not often likely to buy the real game in the first place because they're not collectors or playing on original hardware isn't important to them.

However we may be one or two console generations away from all of the new games no longer having a physical format which means all game stores would effectively only sell old games which will make it difficult to survive.

He probably got beaten up by the economy too. Though gaming has been fairing better than a lot of other collectibles it's not entirely immune.

Some good points, i think its fairly certain that at some point in the future all but a few games will be released digitally instead of on disks and eventually all will

It will be awhile before the physical media goes away, just not enough widely available decent broadband yet.
And your title is misleading. You're talking about 3 distinct things. "Traditional gaming", "purchased original media", and classic games.

Classic games as a market, like most things similar to it, has been relegated to smaller niche stores for awhile. And like any niche store, that is only as sustainable as the market allows. With online stores/markets, re-releases of many classics for newer systems, emulators, and just standard attrition of interest... there's only so many of those stores that can remain viable.

Even brand new game stores close frequently because they can't compete with big box stores and online retailers. You can't expect a niche market like classic games to have multiple thriving local stores... and in most cases there isn't enough profit to have ANY local stores for it. At best you can hope for a store that has other things that just happens to have them available.

As for traditional gaming, it would depend what you mean.
Arcades? Yup, mostly dead. Even when I miraculously come across one it's not open long and the selection of games tends to be abysmal.
Non online games with 1-4 players? Not dead, but certainly suffering in some categories.
Other? Don't know, would need to define it and then I could comment.

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Originally Posted by EclecticGroove

It will be awhile before the physical media goes away, just not enough widely available decent broadband yet.

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Don't be so sure about this. More and more singleplayer games are coming out that require you to have an internet connection to be able to even play.

EmuLAMEtion

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Originally Posted by Olls

Don't be so sure about this. More and more singleplayer games are coming out that require you to have an internet connection to be able to even play.

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That is a fair bit different. Hell, you can play most MMO's on dial up still. It's one thing to have small bits of data required for access, another to only offer your Multi GB game as only download. I think Digital distribution will only increase, but I think the number of digital only titles will still remain limited to small releases (like live/psn games) and a very small number of bigger releases.

Depending how things go during the next generation of consoles... then maybe it will really shift, but I'd probably expect it in about 10 more years to be technologically and financially more feasible to do.

But much of that really depends upon how quickly 3 things happen:
Wider broadband penetration worldwide.
Better rated speeds for that broadband (no one wants to wait a day + for every download to finish).
Very high or non existent data caps (or special waivers for things purchased) so that people aren't bent over by their ISP's.

I can certainly see physical media being increasingly depreciated, but I do not see it going anywhere until all of the above is at a point where companies can write off the remainders as not being worth marketing towards.

Game stores like McVans won't be able to survive anymore by selling old games. The local stores here make most of their money by repairing modern consoles (with the 360 alone they should make a fortune!) and the retro game sales are just extra.

Personally, I want no part of an all-digital game industry. I don't like the idea of being sold a license to use something that doesn't even physically exist and will probably be incompatible with the next gen of hardware. Unless I can transfer all my shit to new consoles indefinitely, an all-digital industry can eat a bag of dicks and die.

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Originally Posted by Melf

I don't like the idea of being sold a license to use something that doesn't even physically exist and will probably be incompatible with the next gen of hardware. Unless I can transfer all my shit to new consoles indefinitely, an all-digital industry can eat a bag of dicks and die.

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This is what I'm really waiting to see. If the the XBL/PSN/Wii games all die with the console, then there's some real issues with the model. Especially if you need to replace the system or HDD and need to re-download them. If the companies stop hosting them at some point (within reason) then you're basically screwed.

I love digital distribution simply for the lack of clutter and space. Very few games come out with awesome boxes and artwork, great manuals, etc now. It's all fairly no frills outside of special/collectors/ultimate/limited edition stuff. The games are also immune to scratches and breakage since... no disk. But there's a lot of specifics that tie into the model that need to be hashed out.

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Originally Posted by makinagenesis

Some good points, i think its fairly certain that at some point in the future all but a few games will be released digitally instead of on disks and eventually all will

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that will never happen, or at least not anytime soon. even music cd's are still sold and they hold a lot less value than videogames.

Yeah just resell fixed 360s all day long. "We buy your broken 360 and sell you a repaired one for a great profit...schweeet!"

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Originally Posted by Melf

I don't like the idea of being sold a license to use something that doesn't even physically exist and will probably be incompatible with the next gen of hardware. Unless I can transfer all my shit to new consoles indefinitely, an all-digital industry can eat a bag of dicks and die.

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Don't forget the increase of DRM. "Digital downloads only" means that you need an internet connection to buy games and if everyone who buys games have an internet connection means that every publisher won't have a problem stuffing their games with "always online" DRM.

So, what will happen in 10-20-30 years if every game from now on will need an authentication server to function? How many of your 100-200 games you bought the last 20 years will still be able to function at all? You think that Diablo 3 will last forever? Someday they will stop supporting it and then what? The game will vanish? How would anyone be able to play it in the same way he can still play his Diablo 2 copy? Imagine Mega Drive games had this thing back then. You think that now you would be able to play more than 1% of its games?

So the only way to play a retro game in the future will be having it in pirated or emulated form. And even that won't be possible if the publishers store game logic in their servers and the only thing you get in your HDD when you buy a game is the graphic/sound data. You will have to emulate the whole server in order to play a game.

In other words, we won't be able to buy games anymore, we will only rent them for a while.

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Originally Posted by Drakon

Yeah just resell fixed 360s all day long. "We buy your broken 360 and sell you a repaired one for a great profit...schweeet!"

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It's the gamestop model. Everyone wants a piece of it. Throw in a few other bots of merchandise and a little bit of new stuff and voila, instant profit.

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Originally Posted by EclecticGroove

It's the gamestop model. Everyone wants a piece of it. Throw in a few other bots of merchandise and a little bit of new stuff and voila, instant profit.

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That's why gamestop is kicking everyone elses @ss. I think the digital download thing is brilliant in terms of making money. Who wants to sell someone a piece of hardware that's going to last forever? You'd be better off selling something that lasts for a few years, and gets them so hooked that they come crawling back to you and pay an inflated price to get a new one! The video game business is a "business" and it's ALL about getting as much money humanly possible out of the customers. They sold hard copies before the internet was huge enough. But now that you can download your game saving money on building a cart, and your game can go *poof* when your hdd crashes forcing you to re-download and pay again...that's like....even more money for them!

I am led to believe McVan's is still selling online and keeping the store in Indiannapolis open. But I could be misled on that information.
They sold from Atari to PS III, Xbox 360 and everything in between. One of the three stores had most of the classic games. While the others sold more modern.

Personal preference is for the real systems in most instances and I do understand there is a place for emulation, EverDrive, multi-carts and XBL/PSN/Wii downloads.

But it is still sad to see a store chain that I have bought from for almost twenty years close down.

I guess I am looking for closure. Like maybe Gamestop forced them out with better sales or something? Maybe gamers are downloading or renting more and not buying tangible products?

Don't worry, I got this way when Burger Chef closed in the 80's. I wanted to blame Burger King and McDonalds. But I'll do what I did then and go grab something from Wendy's and the world will be in balance again.

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Originally Posted by Drakon

But now that you can download your game saving money on building a cart, and your game can go *poof* when your hdd crashes forcing you to re-download and pay again...that's like....even more money for them!

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Actually, you don't need to pay again, just download again. I can go throw my entire 360 into an incinerator, go to a store, buy a new one, set up my profile, and re-download every game purchased digitally right to the new console again.

And how will that last before Microsoft shuts down the 360 servers? Like what happened with the original Xbox.

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Originally Posted by EclecticGroove

That is a fair bit different. Hell, you can play most MMO's on dial up still. It's one thing to have small bits of data required for access, another to only offer your Multi GB game as only download. I think Digital distribution will only increase, but I think the number of digital only titles will still remain limited to small releases (like live/psn games) and a very small number of bigger releases.

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Not MMO's, I said singleplayer games (Diablo III, just to name the most recent singleplayer title). It'd be pretty costly to fulfill an "always online" requirement on dial-up, so I'd say it's pretty much the same issue.
My point is that while you said that broadband is not widespread enough yet, that obviously doesn't seem to stop developers (big ones at that) from doing this. So that makes me believe that the broadband requirement is not really an issue.

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Originally Posted by Olls

Not MMO's, I said singleplayer games (Diablo III, just to name the most recent singleplayer title). It'd be pretty costly to fulfill an "always online" requirement on dial-up, so I'd say it's pretty much the same issue.
My point is that while you said that broadband is not widespread enough yet, that obviously doesn't seem to stop developers (big ones at that) from doing this. So that makes me believe that the broadband requirement is not really an issue.

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My point was that the bandwidth needed for that is miniscule. And can be done over even the shittiest of shit connections so long as the coding is lenient enough. It's a far cry from being a fat pipe big enough to require you to download the game via that connection.

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Originally Posted by Guntz

And how will that last before Microsoft shuts down the 360 servers? Like what happened with the original Xbox.

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And that, my friend, is the question. For MS, Sony, Nintendo, and even Steam. How long will they be around, and how long will they keep their catalogs stretching all the way back. And the original MS servers were for online play, not for the games themselves. They had no digital distribution with the oXbox.

in the usa shops may be closing but in europe there are only more and more retro shops. the business and size if simply shifting away from north american to europe and also latin america and asia. there's even a renewed popularity for arcades in europe. the problems in the usa I think have everything to do with economic crisis and much less with people not wanting to buy (retro) games anymore.

How to describe this. The industry just shits out crap for us to buy, however the indy gaming scene still has that genuine feel of gaming. It is games made by gamers, the real ones not those idiots that spend 10 hours at a time playing CoD. I Wanna Be the Guy is one of my favorites. Minecraft is a great thing. Super Meat Boy is a creative venture and I actually like it. Even the little known ones like Don't Shit Yourself are good (despite that one taking 30 seconds to win). I think we have to rely on our gaming brothers to get the job done. Most modern games I hate or don't enjoy as much as the games of old. What happened to the days where it was you, the controller and your wits? I'll tell you what, people that just toss money at expensive dev tools and use the default material in hopes that someone will buy it.

Big Budget = Daikatana

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Originally Posted by EclecticGroove

And that, my friend, is the question. For MS, Sony, Nintendo, and even Steam. How long will they be around, and how long will they keep their catalogs stretching all the way back. And the original MS servers were for online play, not for the games themselves. They had no digital distribution with the oXbox.

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Yeah it worries me too. Will these digital distribution games simply be lost to the ether when the services that distribute them no longer exist? We won't be able to just be able to go hunt down the old disk or cartridge anymore (not that they're going to last absolutely forever either). I'm interested in seeing the reaction when this inevitably happens though I hope it won't be for a long time yet.

Personally I love GOG's method. You buy the game and you own it DRM free. You download it once and you can make as many backup copies of the installer as you like. I understand how this works for GOG because they're older games that people are buying in order to generate interest in older IPs (it's got EA seriously thinking about Wing Commander again along with its creator Chris Roberts) and it might not be the best model for new games.

Steam has said that if they ever plan on going out of business they'd work something out for people to be able to keep copies of their games. I'm not entirely sure what that would be but hopefully the service will outlive us all anyway.

Things have already become bland for me with modern gaming. The console war between the PS3 and 360 is kind pointless to me as most games worth a damn are on both consoles and just as good on either besides tiny graphical differences that may mean a lot to some people but I can't even perceive them most of the time. On top of that if you have a monster PC you can get away without owning either. Nintendo is still unique because it's Nintendo and they always do their own thing, but it's also not necessarily better.

It would be simple to do. Provide a limited time download for the file (installer/game/rom/whatever). And then either:
1) Push an update that removes the DRM/Protection for it so it can play from any media.
2) Provide a utility that will strip this from the media or burn it with the needed keys for this game to work.


Both are quite possible, it's just a matter of IF they will do it. I honestly don't see MS going out of business any time soon, and I doubt any of them (MS, Sony, Nintendo, Steam) will get out of the games business for some time. So the big money questions are going to be... how long do they plan to support their old digital distro titles, and do they plan to carry that support forward onto new consoles or will it "start fresh" with ever hardware release.

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Originally Posted by GriskaGyoran

How to describe this. The industry just shits out crap for us to buy, however the indy gaming scene still has that genuine feel of gaming. It is games made by gamers, the real ones not those idiots that spend 10 hours at a time playing CoD. I Wanna Be the Guy is one of my favorites. Minecraft is a great thing. Super Meat Boy is a creative venture and I actually like it. Even the little known ones like Don't Shit Yourself are good (despite that one taking 30 seconds to win). I think we have to rely on our gaming brothers to get the job done. Most modern games I hate or don't enjoy as much as the games of old. What happened to the days where it was you, the controller and your wits? I'll tell you what, people that just toss money at expensive dev tools and use the default material in hopes that someone will buy it.

Big Budget = Daikatana

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You sir have hit the nail on the head. All the best sh#t these days is independent. The gaming industry has been split between real quality and big budget stuff that hopes you'll be distracted by all the purdy visuals and sound to notice that the game itself is nothing new or fun. Back when the hardware was limited, such a thing didn't exist so much.

Modern gamers are too easy to distract with pretty visuals, and it's a huge money making machine. Let's face it good gameplay just doesn't always sell as well in comparison, which is sad but true.

People want advancements in technology yet some forget what happens to the antiquated technology which was replaced. Gaming isn't immune to evolving in these ways. The nostalgic value of walking into a B&M store (focusing on retro games) is unrivaled but the pros of digital downloads are second to none.

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Originally Posted by JCU

People want advancements in technology yet some forget what happens to the antiquated technology which was replaced. Gaming isn't immune to evolving in these ways. The nostalgic value of walking into a B&M store (focusing on retro games) is unrivaled but the pros of digital downloads are second to none.

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too bad the majority of people are mindless proles then?

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Originally Posted by Drakon

Back when the hardware was limited, such a thing didn't exist so much.

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Modern gamers are too easy to distract with pretty visuals, and it's a huge money making machine. Let's face it good gameplay just doesn't always sell as well in comparison, which is sad but true.

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You bring up some good points, but the past is best viewed through rose tinted glasses.

With few exceptions, video games are not artistic expressions or altruistic endeavors; they're purely commercial ventures. The same customer that bought the latest sub-par movie licensed game for either themselves or as a gift probably bought the same thing 10-20 years ago. Licensed games, sports games, tech gimmicks, all that crap always sells and always will. Remember FMV? There's a reason why that a bazillion copies of that were sold on the Sega CD and not Snatcher or Lunar.

The terms casual and hardcore or niche flip when viewed from a chronological standpoint. I remember a time when everyone played fighters. Everyone. Now fighters (even 3D) are a niche market. Plastic instrument music games went from zero to boom to bust in a millisecond. Give it a few years, they'll be called "hardcore".

The same mentality that sells the waggle motion and FPS glut isn't different from the puzzle or platformer glut of 20 years ago. Sell as much product as possible to as many people as possible, and the instant that a genre or trend is tapped out the stream will cease to flow.

I have been to McVan's stores a few times when I got to Fort Wayne, and this is sad, but I think their reasoning is flawed. There are 4 used video game stores in the South Bend-Elkhart area that are still around and going well. Whether they are thriving or not, I do not know, but to say that classic gaming is dead is a stretch.

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Originally Posted by Azathoth

You bring up some good points, but the past is best viewed through rose tinted glasses.

With few exceptions, video games are not artistic expressions or altruistic endeavors; they're purely commercial ventures. The same customer that bought the latest sub-par movie licensed game for either themselves or as a gift probably bought the same thing 10-20 years ago. Licensed games, sports games, tech gimmicks, all that crap always sells and always will. Remember FMV? There's a reason why that a bazillion copies of that were sold on the Sega CD and not Snatcher or Lunar.

The terms casual and hardcore or niche flip when viewed from a chronological standpoint. I remember a time when everyone played fighters. Everyone. Now fighters (even 3D) are a niche market. Plastic instrument music games went from zero to boom to bust in a millisecond. Give it a few years, they'll be called "hardcore".

The same mentality that sells the waggle motion and FPS glut isn't different from the puzzle or platformer glut of 20 years ago. Sell as much product as possible to as many people as possible, and the instant that a genre or trend is tapped out the stream will cease to flow.

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Yeah I was thinking the same thing. I went to an arcade a few times recently and they have a cabinet with the latest version of street fighter 4. It was sitting there not being used. When I was a kid fighting games were everywhere and they were always busy...and I mean EVERYWHERE like every corner variety store had an arcade machine or two or three. Music based games burn out pretty quickly because once you get as good as you'll ever get at it then it's only fun to play to socialize. Once the socializing runs out then you've got no reason to continue playing so you might as well find something more enjoyable.

I jumped on a lot of bandwagons as a kid that I regret. FMV games that were more pretty than fun, 3d rendered on a 2d system giving you at the time some of the best animation quality (distracting you from crappy gameplay). Early 3d that was again often a distraction from not so great gameplay. Those games burned out so quickly for me even as a kid. I guess that's why I stopped buying new systems after the snes.

I don't get any enjoyment from the new fps games, or most new games, but oh well that's what people pay money for then good for them.

Not even gonna read anything posted here, just gonna say that basically. Today you can't call something a video game for the most part without giving it a gun, online playability and first person view.

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With few exceptions, video games are not artistic expressions or altruistic endeavors; they're purely commercial ventures.

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Exactly. The cheeseburger has been innovated a lot over the years, but I still like plain and simple cheeseburgers. Not every game needs to move the industry forward. If a game is good it's good even if it's not making an artistic stand or breaking a mold.

However these days there are independent games made purely for art and that's a good thing but it's silly some people expect this from the entire industry which still has to make a buck. The same thing goes with film. You can have your indie stuff and your corporate blockbusters with both. In fact innovations and ideas from one side often help the other become better. I think a lot of people need see that.

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Originally Posted by Thunderblaze16

Not even gonna read anything posted here, just gonna say that basically. Today you can't call something a video game for the most part without giving it a gun, online playability and first person view.

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I think that's a pretty narrow perception of things. Just because the gun games are the ones pushing several million units doesn't mean other titles don't exist. The indie scene is getting more attention than ever before and smaller studios are doing some really interesting things. The current consoles have a lot of great titles that aren't huge hits. Nintendo, whether you like them or not, continues to do exceptionally well without doing any of that. It's like saying you can't have a video game in the 90's without an extreme animal jumping on platforms or you can't make a movie today if it's not about a super hero.

If a game has limited or no online playablity people will whine and complain about it and act like its a negative and immediatley say that it sucks.

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Originally Posted by DarkDragon

If a game has limited or no online playablity people will whine and complain about it and act like its a negative and immediatley say that it sucks.

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I really hate that a lot of review sites will put NO MULTIPLAYER as one of their negatives. I don't know why single player gaming isn't allowed to exist anymore. FPS and TPS games really get the brunt of this attitude. It caused Platinum's excellent 3rd person shooter Vanquish to get quickly tossed into the bargain bin. A lot of Gears of War fans scoffed at it for being single player.

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Originally Posted by Obviously

I really hate that a lot of review sites will put NO MULTIPLAYER in their negative section. I don't know why single player gaming isn't allowed to exist anymore. That attitude really helped kill off Platinum's excellent 3rd person shooter Vanquish. A lot of Gears of War fans scoffed at it for being single player.

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Let them scoff. Feeling old and being old usually sucks but when it comes to video games its actually a good thing because it means you were around when games were simpler and more fun with none of that BS that exisits now. Im glad I was around when people actually went to the arcade to play games and I wouldnt trade that for anything.

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Originally Posted by Obviously

I think that's a pretty narrow perception of things. Just because the gun games are the ones pushing several million units doesn't mean other titles don't exist. The indie scene is getting more attention than ever before and smaller studios are doing some really interesting things. The current consoles have a lot of great titles that aren't huge hits. Nintendo, whether you like them or not, continues to do exceptionally well without doing any of that. It's like saying you can't have a video game in the 90's without an extreme animal jumping on platforms or you can't make a movie today if it's not about a super hero.

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You can't make a post on sega16 without making it into an extreme generalization that ignores a lot of factors proving your point completely wrong.....oh shhhhhh

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Originally Posted by DarkDragon

If a game has limited or no online playablity people will whine and complain about it and act like its a negative and immediatley say that it sucks.

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I'd personally take more interest in a game just because it doesn't have online mode. I hate online gaming I much prefer my buddies coming over for gaming fun, and vice versa! Then again I'm weird..

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Originally Posted by DarkDragon

Let them scoff. Feeling old and being old usually sucks but when it comes to video games its actually a good thing because it means you were around when games were simpler and more fun with none of that BS that exisits now. Im glad I was around when people actually went to the arcade to play games and I wouldnt trade that for anything.

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Exactly sir! The second coming of the arcade was a great time to be alive. Gamers were actually social, left their houses, and had fun together. When I was a kid all the people I'd meet at arcades were normal and not some sort of hardcore nerd. You would practice something at home, then go to the arcade and show off your new skills to all of your arcade buddies. I basically milked that sort of scene until I just got so old that I wasn't meeting anyone in my age range anymore. Also I'd start to miss meeting people who liked to talk about and do things that wasn't gaming related 24/7. It seems that the less popular arcade gaming became the only people you'd meet at arcades were just a bit...too hardcore... Would I say older games are "simpler"? Heck no! You can get insanely good at older games, and it takes a lot of time and dedication.

It seems that the current generation of gaming caters to people who don't want to even bother ever leaving their house to play with their buddies. I HATE this concept, to me multiplayer will always be the most fun in person. It gives you an excuse to go out and be social. I would still be going to buddies houses to play games if my awesome gf was more okay with being around that sort of thing. But she gets bored at that sort of scene...and she's more awesome than gaming with my buddies...so I made my choice.

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Originally Posted by Drakon

It seems that the current generation of gaming caters to people who don't want to even bother ever leaving their house to play with their buddies. I HATE this concept, to me multiplayer will always be the most fun in person. It gives you an excuse to go out and be social

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Yup it caters to the "no life", "no friends", antisocial crowd. Its pretty scary if you think about it. I guess its just due to technological advancements and nothing could have been done to stop it.

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Originally Posted by EclecticGroove

Actually, you don't need to pay again, just download again. I can go throw my entire 360 into an incinerator, go to a store, buy a new one, set up my profile, and re-download every game purchased digitally right to the new console again.

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I have a couple of 360 games that won't work without being plugged into the internet. My downloaded copy of Dics of Tron will not work without being connected to LIVE, even after downloading it again.

I don't know why, but I've always cringed when people called games art. It sounds too much like hubris to me.