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16:9 presentation, with an option to toggle between the HD mode and the original saturn graphics. Christmas NiGHTS is included.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7265/7...b6d80967f3.jpg
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Trailer at sega's blog: http://blogs.sega.com/2012/07/05/dre...eams%E2%80%A6/
I keep throwing money at the screen, but nothing's happening!
I just saw this on my Twitter feed too, this is super exciting!!
One thing that did intrigue me though is this tidbit "It will also feature an optional Saturn Mode that will let players experience the game with the original graphics intact."
If they've got a viable Saturn emulator set up for Xbox/PS3 this might me we could get re-releases of some super sought after games finally like Panzer Dragoon Saga!
This is the PS2 remake, not emulation. It was done by the Sega Ages team.Quote:
Originally Posted by xelement5x
However, Sega DOES have a saturn emulator they've been developing and maturing - Giri Giri. they bought that years ago.
Sega lost the source material for PDS a long time ago. They'd pretty much have to start from scratch.Quote:
Originally Posted by xelement5x
pds remake is 99% never going to happen
Got the PS2 game on HDLoader, and the Wii game too, but never bothered to play it. I wonder if Dolphin could run that.. *asks Jeeves*
Day 1.
Now give us Shenmue, Panzer Dragoon Saga and Skies of Arcadia too.
Impossible unfortunately :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Loggo
Good news on one hand, but on the other hand it kind of dilutes the value of having the Japanese PS2 NiGHTS in your collection...
I hope they fixed the sound issues that the PS2 version had.
Does anybody know if the PS2 game screwed up the textures or eliminated the pop up? Since I'm sure Sega won't change anything it would be good to know. If all it does is filter the textures they will look like, well, PS2 textures and I'll hate it. If it eliminates the pop up I might still be interested for typical XBLA prices. If they bumped it up to 60FPS the game might be too easy though.
How does Sega loose source material to PDS?
Fire, lost the media, HD crash, etc?
This was covered by somebody that use to work for Sega but basically they really didn't give a shit about there stuff so all kinds of source code would loss. Hell they downloaded the roms online for the Smash Pack lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
Why would having the source code matter, can't they just play the game and replicate it? I guess they're probably too lazy for that. Is there no way to look at the data that's on the disc and start working back from there?
I'm pretty excited for this! I remember having a real blast playing a demo for this at a Target YEARS ago. I never did own a Saturn (until recently), and I rather enjoyed NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams on the Wii (me and like 3 other people, I imagine), so I feel like I'm getting a second chance at this! Now I just need a bigger HDD on my Xbox360, it's nearly full...
It's a common practice. Virtually every source code prior to the PS2 generation is gone. This is not a sega-only practice, and they didn't "lose" it like it was an accident. They threw it out, like everybody throws out their source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Shocker
There is evidence that every single Zelda source code is lost, too. And confirmation that the Link's Awakening source code is gone. Nintendo disassembled a rom from the internet for Link's Awakening DX.
At that point you're making an entirely new game.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry coeurl
You write source code in a high level language, like C++, or in NiGHTS case, SH2 Assembly. You then compile them into machine code, literal 1's and 0's. You can disassemble the machine code back into assembly, but it becomes unreadable.Quote:
I guess they're probably too lazy for that. Is there no way to look at the data that's on the disc and start working back from there?
Sort of like how many early movies are more or less completely lost now, unless some obscure collector out there in the world just so happens to have a movie reel? That saddens me deeply :/Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Pretty much. People forget how young this medium is. We're barely 30 years removed from a period where programmers were forbidden to credit themselves with the creation of a game. We're 20 years removed from an era where the names of the people who made said games were accessible only via a special code, and they'd go by pseudonyms during the normal credits. It was just a different time. Why save the source code to your games? The idea that we'd need them to port a game to another console 20 years later never crossed these people's minds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterfaller
That's not a good analogy. The games are available in pressed form, and the machines that ran them can be emulated bit-by-bit. The only exception I can think of is the silly 64DD.
As for disc-based platforms like the Xbox and later, not to mention DRM-bullshit-consoles of late, it will prove more difficult to preserve current games once the Cloud goes down, or when the last 360/Xbox/PS3 disc drive fails. The EU recently ruled that digital goods must be eligible to the same rules of "resalability" as physical ones, but that still doesn't address that once the server-side OFF switch is flipped your rented games on XBL/PSN and Steam/Origin are lost for good save for a working cracking mechanism.
Reverse engineering the compiled disc contents of a game is certainly possible. In fact, a number of recent HD re-releases were made in this way, when the original source code wasn't available for whatever reason. It's just not an easy task, so there needs to be enough demand to make it worthwhile.
Did you imply that the only game system that isn't currently emulated is the 64DD?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulstar
They didn't reverse engineer those games. They're emulated, with the emulator doing special shit like displaying beyond the bounds of a normal tv.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil N
It's frustrating how misused the phrase "reverse engineering" is.
I'm a huge NiGHTS fan and I played the shit out of the first game. I think I played it every day for at least 5-6 months, I was addicted haha. That being said I was highly disappointed with NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams on the Wii. If you liked Journey of Dreams, you will LOVE the original Waterfaller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waterfaller
That being said I'm really glad to see NiGHTS get a re-release. Though I wonder how it will control with the 360 controller...the Saturn 3D Controller is just so well-designed for the game, hard to top it!
All modern emulators are reverse engineered. All hardware docs we have that are edited in any way by homebrew coders are reverse engineered. As far as the term has ever been used, it simply means that somebody figured out how the hardware worked without the help of the company that owns the rights to it.
Companies probably destroyed the source codes for their IPs because they didn't have the resources to handle security for protecting it all.
No, not all modern emulators are reverse engineered. Even under your (loose) definition. Do you think Nintendo reverse engineered their N64 emulator for their Zelda games?Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Reverse engineering refers to a very specific practice. Reverse engineering is not simply building something from scratch without documentation.
I'm not talking about emulation, I'm talking about a recent high-profile HD disc-based re-release of a PS2 game. There was an article recently about the creation of these HD remakes and one of the people interviewed explained that they really reverse engineered the compiled code from the original game disc and reworked that into a modern-day codebase. I'm not sure exactly which game that was, I'll have to dig through some game sites to find it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
[edit]
Found it. It was the ICO/Shadow of the Colossus HD collection by Bluepoint, and they seem to imply that the same goes for the Metal Gear Solid HD collection:
http://www.1up.com/features/the-prob...pager.offset=2
Notice the remarks: "We take retail discs of the game and reverse engineer them. (...) We don't emulate any of this stuff, we hand convert it."
I have never once put one thought on what Nintendo did with their Zelda games before this moment. Please enlighten me. Also, please explain what real reverse engineering is and help me track down the origins of all official and unofficial emulators. That would make for an interesting article.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
Reverse engineering means looking at the final retail hardware or software as you find it in the stores, then taking it apart and figuring out what makes it tick, and finally when you've gathered enough knowledge, create your own implementation. Nintendo wouldn't have to do that because they have all the original design documents for their hardware, and the people who worked on it, so they don't need to figure out how their own stuff works.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Well I did write "I can think of" for a reason :p There's probably an obscure handheld or two out there that were never emulated.. And of course there remains several arcade motherboards too freakish to emulate properly due to lack of documentation.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSonicRetard
As I recall, the original Tempest is too complicated to emulate because it's a freaking mess with countermeasures employed. Also:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulstar
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P1CMR0i0gK...e%2BEnough.jpg
Reverse Engineering specifically involves the process of taking apart a final product and devising a clone from what you learn disassembling it. There are degrees to which this is done - the most famous example is how clones of Intel's x86 processor were first made by using chemicals to peel apart the cpu layer by layer, studying the components under a microscope.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
There are legalities revolving around reverse engineering, which is why there are degrees to which it's done, such as clean-room reverse engineering.
As for emulation, Sega famously purchased Kega and Giri Giri from the homebrew communities, but Nintendo does not do this. They develop their emulators in-house.
And for that you get karma sheath man! http://i48.tinypic.com/2ewmq6r.gif
So Sega could conceivably do this with Panzer Dragoon Saga, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil N
Anything is possible with software, but it would certainly require a lot of work. Not sure if Sega has the impetus right now to do such a thing. Not to mention, the number of active professional developers who are intimately familiar with Saturn machine code is probably not very high anymore. So gathering a team capable of pulling off a quality conversion of PDS would be a challenge in itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry coeurl
Right after they get through milking their current "Nights" cow to death and toss it into the pit with the "Sonic" one.Quote:
Originally Posted by jerry coeurl
Exactly, but what I was implying with my first comment is that if they simply have a well built emulator for the Saturn there would be no need to de-compile it to get the source code and rebuild the game. If the emulator is sufficiently accurate they could just load the ISOs of the game in the emulator and send it off. Obviously there would probably be some extra measures in there to make the emulator only load PDS on start and make it more seamless for a better experience, but all probably doable if they had a solid emulator for modern consoles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil N
What I didn't realize though is that this was just a port of an already released PS2 version. Sad to see another rehash, but Sega seems to be pushing digital downloads quite a lot these days.
I think Konami did that with the Silent Hill HD Collection as well, to apparently lesser results :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil N
Nights? I'm a huge Sega fan. But Nights? Ugg.