I think you've got that the wrong way round, Dead or Alive ++ is an adaptation of Playstation Dead or AliveQuote:
Originally Posted by sheath
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I think you've got that the wrong way round, Dead or Alive ++ is an adaptation of Playstation Dead or AliveQuote:
Originally Posted by sheath
It's nice to see the Bug! games getting some appreciation. I always felt these were a bit underrated. I enjoy the graphical style and animation a lot in these games, as well as the sense of humor. It's one of the games I miss most from not having a Saturn any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
My favorite Bug! moment is when he picks up a can of health and sings, "Bug Juiiiiiice". Always brings a smile to my face:)
Was the Arcade version later? Yeah I didn't know that. Either way it is a separate game than Model 2 and Saturn DOA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
haha dont get me wrong pal, im just amazed with your post its soooo hugeeeeeeQuote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
When you make a home port of an arcade racing game, particularly from the 5th gen on, you add modes and features to give the game a decent amount of content and gameplay. If you don't do that, you failed to make a competent home port of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Also, there are some arcade racing games done in a championship-style setup. Think of one of my favorite ever arcade racing games, Super Off-Road, for example. Heck, even in Outrun you go through a 5-race series... Daytona has nothing. All of the Outrun games have a series of races, arcade or home. On the other hand, even when you do see a championship mode on Sega racing games for the Saturn, like Sega Rally, it's so absurdly short that it barely even deserves the term...
That those Sega games you mention have, if you like them, replay value to try to get a better time in no way makes up for the fact that it's absolutely ridiculous that they didn't put in a championship mode. As I said, that's why the Dreamcast version of Daytona is, featurewise, so, so much better than the previous releases... I mean, as I said, I like Daytona (the first Saturn version) a lot, and Sega Rally too. But the missing single player campaign is a real problem. This also applies to Sonic R and others, of course. Yes, they're good games, but "just play the single race mode more and get better" isn't the same as having an actual championship to win. It's not.
If you can't move around in 3d by pressing on the d-pad, there's absolutely no way that I would consider it a 3d game. Sure, Virtua Fighter isn't 2.5d in the way that Street Fighter IV or SSB are, but it's certainly not 3d either.Quote:
Virtua Fighter and Fighting Vipers are fully 3D, the 3D movements of certain moves and the ability to roll to to the opponent's left or right after being knocked down make the third dimension an integral part of the gameplay and fight strategy.
And anyway, can't you only roll around after being knocked down? That's a very, very limited "3d movement" feature. No way is that enough to call the games 3d. 99% of the gameplay is on a 2d plane.
Yes, it does. Without question.Quote:
Just because you can't walk around each other doesn't make them any less 3D.
Ah, no, it adds a lot to the gameplay, when the game is done right of course. Like, sure it's simplistic, but Toshinden certainly benefits from having true 3d. It adds depth and challenge.Quote:
In fact, until Virtua Fighter 3/Fighter's Megamix, I never saw a 3D fighter's walk around mechanic as anything other than a distraction from the gameplay.
That's completely ridiculous. It would have made them better for sure.Quote:
Virtua Fighter 1-2 and Fighting Vipers don't have 3D walking because it would have cheapened the gameplay.
As was said, you got that backwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
No, it's a feature-enhanced version of the same basic game... I guess you could call it a revision, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Daytona on the Saturn is a deeper gameplay experience because you have championship modes, and not just single races. You really are questioning that?Quote:
I agree that championship modes wouldn't work in the Arcades and that Arcade Racers were designed for shorter more sporadic plays. My point though is that championship modes does not equate to a deeper gameplay experience, just like more cars and tracks don't. Gameplay depth is in the track design, AI, physics and controls, not in extra modes.
The Xbox has better-looking polygon graphics and effects and such than Saturn though, that's why I said it... but yeah, it was pretty disappointing that they didn't include any of the PS1 added content on the Xbox release.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
The Bug! games are great, they deserve appreciation! As I said, they really are great platformers, probably among the better ones that generation. The main variable would be how much you criticize them for the overly high difficulty levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by sketch
You are completely missing the point of these games then. Content and gameplay is not defined by how many modes there are or by how quickly everything can be seen in one play through. That is a fallacy created by marketing for modern gaming that systematically destroyed Arcade and Action gaming in the early 2000s.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
It is the same thing as saying some excellent Arcade game, let's say Strider or Ghouls N Ghosts can be beaten in less than thirty minutes. The implication is that anybody could pick the game up for the first time and beat it in 30 minutes. Maybe some super hyper awesome tournament gamer could do this, but these games take countless hours for most gamers to really play through all of the content. I have owned Daytona, Daytona CE and Sega Rally for over a decade and even though at times I have been able to win all of the races, I don't consider them finished by any means.
No, the DVD era's perception that once you've watched the movie and the extras it's over is ridiculous and cheapens the reality that some games actually are art. The Dreamcast game is largely panned by fans of the Daytona Series because the controls are a lot different than the Saturn games. What does that tell you?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Well, then you are absolutely wrong. The ability to move in 3D when knocked down, and the 3D motion caused by certain moves is absolutely integral to the strategy of winning matches in Virtua Fighter 1 and 2 and Fighting Vipers. These games use the ring outs and the walls as part of the gameplay very well, without the reality of the 3D movement cheap players would always win. Thankfully this is not the case, and one can strategically choose to reposition after being knocked down or with a well timed move.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
In reality the only 3D fighters that allow 3D walking punish the player for walking around like that and reward the player for tapping the direction at the instant an opponent attacks to set up for a counter. This is actually the way a real one on one fight works as well, staying square with an opponent while screwing with distance, timing and very slight angles is key to proper martial strategy.
Uh, question.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Proper side stepping counter mechanics adds a lot to the gameplay. Being allowed to hold up or down on the d-pad to walk around adds nothing to the gameplay, it does nothing for positioning, it does nothing for strategy, it does nothing at all besides let players run around each other in circles before they actually decide to fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
This has been proven time and time again to be wrong. It's the same reason why your character auto-faces the enemy in SF2, or why the new mortal kombat is 2.5D.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Personally I think your argument is a fallacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Any racing game can be played over and over to master and improve lap times, this is on top of the championship mode, not instead of it.
I was thinking the other day, I'm not really even sure the Saturn is that great for time attack racing anyway, racing games on other systems of the time seem to have much more comprehensive time attack options to me, including the ability to save and load ghosts for every course for instance.
Agreed on all counts. This game may have gotten more appreciate in later years; I think when it first came out, 3d games were all the rage and the pseudo-3d of Bug was a disappointment to some (I think people wanted to be able to free roam, much like Mario 64). Bug! was rather constrained, forcing you to basically walk on paths, but I think this allowed the designers to create some tight, fun platforming levels (and yes, they were brutally difficult).Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Little touches, like Bug pumping himself up like Arnold Schwarzenegger and then exhaling to deflate himself if he stood idle for too long, were a large part of what created the game's charm. The game is a lot like Earthworm Jim in that regards (although I think the gameplay is tighter on Bug!).
Not so, there are plenty of racing games that the highest ambition is to finish first at least once, and the control and track design make that so difficult most people won't ever bother to try even for that. There are also racing games that put control and track design aside in favor of unlocking more modes, cars and tracks, or racing games that are essentially sand boxes or modified RPGs, or grease monkey simulators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
You may not appreciate Daytona and Sega Rally, and I know very few people appreciate Sega Touring Car Championship, but the fact remains that these games were designed from the ground up to be nearly infinitely replayable. They were not designed to be "quarter munchers" and their track designs would be very badly suited for a mode that was more focused on earning points for winning races than in perfecting the gameplay amidst the track design. Therefore the argument that these games are horribly flawed and lack in content is absolutely invalid.
These games have a perfectly fine amount of content, for 1995-1996Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
I think Black Falcon is comparing them to later games of the same generation.
Posted seven more reviews, up through Puyo Puyo Tsuu.
Just about any 3rd or 4th gen racing game had a full single player mode. I can't think of any that have that "single race only" design. So first, I don't think it's right to say that simply because those games are next-gen it's okay to ditch the primary single player mode of previous generations; that doesn't make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
Second, while you're right that most 5th gen racing games in 1995-1996 probably do share that minimal or nonexistent championship mode issue, they aren't ALL like that. For instance, Time Warner's version of Virtua Racing on the Saturn has a full, points-based championship mode, with ten tracks to race through. Great fun stuff there. Also all three of the N64 racing games released in 1996, Mario Kart 64 (1996 in Japan), Wave Race 64, and Cruis'n USA, have cup or championship modes. I know that many PS1 racers are like those Saturn ones, but there are a few other PS1/Saturn racers from that time that do have championships, including Cyber Speedway on Saturn and Wipeout on both systems. And I'm sure there are more.
So no, while you're sort of right in that far, far too many racing games from the PS1 and Saturn do indeed not have cup/championship modes, others do. Of course that did get even more true later in the generation -- almost all N64 racing games have cup or championship modes for instance, only a tiny number are single race only -- but even at that low point (for real single player modes, not game quality) of 1994-1996, there were a few anyway not like the rest of them.
Sega Rally had ghosts if you had a memory cartridge. That said, I agree. Sure, I love Sega Rally and had no issues playing it over and over, but the public at large desires more for their console money. Looking at the few cars and tracks available in Sega Touring Car against the oodles of racers and tracks of Gran Turismo, it's no wonder which game people chose to buy on the basis of content alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thenewguy
This is something Sega failed to learn for the longest time when porting over its arcade games starting with the SMS; home users need more content given the greater playing time. Virtua Fighter 4, Virtua Tennis 2, Sega Rally Revo, Jamba Safari, and later Sega arcade ports finally recognized this. Too bad Sega's XBLA Daytona port didn't exercise the same judgment. You deliver an arcade experience at home; you limit yourself to an arcade audience, which isn't much these days.
Virtual On is certainly 3D--something like a very fast paced Toshinden but much more like Destrega (PS--perhaps a knockoff of VO's engine, though it has a DragonballZ feel too).Quote:
Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
Yep. You might check out Elan Doree on a burn (it's $$) or Savaki, the former being Sega from the arcades and the latter a Micro Cabin publication. Not highly recommending either but they're seldom mentioned.Quote:
I don't know, Last Bronx just feels generic.
Your opinion is why NiGHTS is a legendary game? Sorry, that just sounds funny. For those uncertain why the 3D pad would be best it's because the game controls in a kind of analogue w/o which Nights never seems to reach top speed, whilst the 'stick' on the 3D pad has a very short throw (cf playing NiGHTS Journey w/ the classic pad's analogue on Wii, or the PS2 version of NiGHTS). Btw I love Saturn NiGHTS's graphics.Quote:
NiGHTS into Dreams... - Two player (has to be unlocked, one player at the start), has saving, has Mission Stick and 3D Controller support. NiGHTS is one of the Saturn's most legendary titles, and for a reason -- this is my favorite Saturn game.
Good reviews. You certainly love your mission sticks. One thing I regret about these games is they didn't use the mission stick for flight and the lightgun for targeting. Oh well. The first is the best of the four games.Quote:
Panzer Dragoon & PD Zwei
You're absolutely right, though it's with the Saturn era that this really became a huge problem; those arcade ports worked on the Genesis, for the most part, but not on Saturn. People came to expect more content from their games, and as I've said at that same time racing games for instance actually went backwards that era in the arcades, away from having serieses of races and to just single race only. Sega took way too long to adapt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin
So yeah, as for Sega's home console games, I'd say that they started figuring this out on Dreamcast. Not all of their DC games have full-featured selections of modes, sure, but you start seeing a lot more than they'd had on Saturn for sure. Daytona on DC has a full circuit mode for example, as I've said. Sega Rally is similar -- it's got a championship mode on Saturn with multiple seasons, etc. Major additions versus the first game. Now both of those games have some gameplay issues versus the Saturn titles, but content wise they're much better.
You're right, I haven't played Saturn Virtual-On so I forgot about it. Is it as unplayable with a gamepad as the DC one is? I mean, I have Oratorio Tangram, and it's so horribly unplayable on gamepad that that game's no fun at all. I can see your "fast-paced Toshinden" comment, though, like that game you don't lock on to the enemy, but instead run around a 3d arena... but because of that really fast pace, VO(OT, the one I've played) is quite difficult to get used to. Toshinden's slow, so you can deal with it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by StarMist
VOOT's got absolutely nothing for features either, arcade, versus, options, and nothing else. And those Twin Stick controllers, for Saturn or DC, cost a lot. So I've been far from convinced that I'd consider Saturn Virtual-On worth the money...
Oh, and actually my favorite Toshinden game, of the three I have played (1 for Saturn, 3 for PS1, and the GB game) is in fact Toshinden for the Game Boy. It's a simplistic button-masher, but it's a fun one.
My Saturn can't play CD-Rs, so I'd have to play them in emulation. Maybe I'll try though.Quote:
Yep. You might check out Elan Doree on a burn (it's $$) or Savaki, the former being Sega from the arcades and the latter a Micro Cabin publication. Not highly recommending either but they're seldom mentioned.
Heh, yeah, that's true, I should rephrase that. It's a legendary game, and I agree and also think it's great.Quote:
Your opinion is why NiGHTS is a legendary game? Sorry, that just sounds funny.
Indeed. Flying is natural with the 3D Controller in a way that it's just not at all with a dpad. As for the Mission Stick, as I said the game is in fact analog with the joystick, but it's not much fun -- it requires far too much motion to make circles and such, as you say the game was designed for a short throw and not a long one.Quote:
For those uncertain why the 3D pad would be best it's because the game controls in a kind of analogue w/o which Nights never seems to reach top speed, whilst the 'stick' on the 3D pad has a very short throw (cf playing NiGHTS Journey w/ the classic pad's analogue on Wii, or the PS2 version of NiGHTS).
They have some great artistic design, but they're so blocky...Quote:
Btw I love Saturn NiGHTS's graphics.
Have you ever played PD with the Mission Stick? It really is a lot better!Quote:
Good reviews. You certainly love your mission sticks. One thing I regret about these games is they didn't use the mission stick for flight and the lightgun for targeting. Oh well. The first is the best of the four games.
As for the games, I haven't played PD Saga, but of the rail shooters, I think I like Orta most, PD1 second, and Zwei third, overall.