Short reviews of all games I have for a system: Saturn

Gads, Virtual On on Saturn and Dreamcast are totally playable. I've played it with casual gamers and they pick up on it in minutes. My buddy and I picked it up on XBLA recently and having never played it before he chose the standard single stick controls of the Saturn and Dreamcast gamepads instead of using both analog sticks.

Anybody who really feels that Virtual On plays badly at all needs to at least give it a shot with the gamepads. I wrote a brief tutorial a long time ago on this very subject and have yet to find anybody who can't play the game very competitively.

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/VOOTinst.htm

Updated with five more reviews, through Sega Rally.

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Originally Posted by sheath

Gads, Virtual On on Saturn and Dreamcast are totally playable. I've played it with casual gamers and they pick up on it in minutes. My buddy and I picked it up on XBLA recently and having never played it before he chose the standard single stick controls of the Saturn and Dreamcast gamepads instead of using both analog sticks.

Anybody who really feels that Virtual On plays badly at all needs to at least give it a shot with the gamepads. I wrote a brief tutorial a long time ago on this very subject and have yet to find anybody who can't play the game very competitively.

http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/VOOTinst.htm

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Gah, reading that reminds me of how confusing and complex VOOT's controls are...

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Updated with five more reviews, through Sega Rally.


Gah, reading that reminds me of how confusing and complex VOOT's controls are...

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Well then you need to stop using terms like absolute, definite, certain, sure, clear, or any other similar thing. What you love most is your own opinion, not discovering things about games you don't understand.

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Originally Posted by sheath

Well then you need to stop using terms like absolute, definite, certain, sure, clear, or any other similar thing. What you love most is your own opinion, not discovering things about games you don't understand.

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... You do know that reviews are generally statements of opinion, yes, as well as fact? So I don't know what you're talking about. Just because I disagree with you about a game you're saying I can't say my opinion or something? VOOT is confusing and hard to get used to. Is it good if you stick with it? Maybe, but I didn't enjoy it nearly enough to want to do that, so I've never tried.

Whilst I really don't agree with you about Dreamcast Voot's joypad controls, I will say that Saturn Voot feels like it controls a little more intuitively, so you may have less trouble with that.

I know people with uber slow computers don't like me doing this, but I can't help it.

90s CVG :love:

There's a breakdown of controls here which is pretty clearly laid out.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9311/pg1j.png

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/253/pg2bi.png

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2446/pg3xz.png

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5581/pg4.png

Why does an arcade port have to have 50,000,000 modes and unlockable content and all the bells and whistles to be acceptable to you? The whole point of Daytona and Sega Rally is to race the tracks they give you with the cars they give you as best you can and try to improve your time. They don't need all that fluff you say they need. A good arcade racer makes you want to simply play it over and over again like any good arcade game in general.

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Originally Posted by zetastrike

The whole point of Daytona and Sega Rally is to race the tracks they give you with the cars they give you as best you can and try to improve your time.

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No, the whole point of those games is fast consumer turnover, get them interested fast, take money, get next customer, don't worry about keeping anyone interested for sustained periods of time as most aren't going to stick around for that long in one sitting anyway, just have a difficulty curve which makes them feel like they're making progress so they come back again for another 15 minutes next week.

Any racer can be played for lap times, Mario Kart 64 can be played against your own ghost if you so please, all you guys are doing is giving these games an excuse for having three courses and no extras.

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Originally Posted by Thenewguy

No, the whole point of those games is fast consumer turnover, get them interested fast, take money, get next customer, don't worry about keeping anyone interested for sustained periods of time as most aren't going to stick around for that long in one sitting anyway, just have a difficulty curve which makes them feel like they're making progress so they come back again for another 15 minutes next week.

Any racer can be played for lap times, Mario Kart 64 can be played against your own ghost if you so please, all you guys are doing is giving these games an excuse for having three courses and no extras.

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All we are doing is describing the gameplay and pointing out that there is nearly infinite "content" because the games were designed to nearly infinitely reward additional practice. This is not the case with many episodic racers, car RPGs, Arcade racers and Sandbox racers. In some of these more DVD extra rich racers the primary design point of the game is to get all the stuff, finish first in all of the tracks, or simply screw with cars. In the case of these games less cars and tracks and modes would make them woefully content deprived.

In the case of Daytona or Sega Rally or Outrun the shift to such things as unlockables, car tweaking and more modes completely changes the nature of the game and takes the player's attention away from the core mechanics. Take the average Need for Speed or Gran Turismo serial purchaser and give them a Daytona or Sega Rally game with dozens of tracks and cars and they will simply try to see all of the tracks and cars and will never bother to learn how the power slide mechanic allows for maintaining maximum speed in every curve.

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The Xbox has better-looking polygon graphics and effects and such than Saturn though, that's why I said it

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It doesn't . Its the Saturn version right down the mesh effects.

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Originally Posted by Thenewguy

Whilst I really don't agree with you about Dreamcast Voot's joypad controls, I will say that Saturn Voot feels like it controls a little more intuitively, so you may have less trouble with that.

I know people with uber slow computers don't like me doing this, but I can't help it.

90s CVG :love:

There's a breakdown of controls here which is pretty clearly laid out.

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/9311/pg1j.png

http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/253/pg2bi.png

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2446/pg3xz.png
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5581/pg4.png

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Woah, those twinstick controls look pretty good. Seems like it'd be much easier to control that way. And that says that the Saturn version allows you to do a twinstick-on-gamepad method too, with four face buttons as a second stick? Why in the WORLD was that removed from the Dreamcast game? That'd make the controls so much better! That's disappointing...

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Originally Posted by Thenewguy

No, the whole point of those games is fast consumer turnover, get them interested fast, take money, get next customer, don't worry about keeping anyone interested for sustained periods of time as most aren't going to stick around for that long in one sitting anyway, just have a difficulty curve which makes them feel like they're making progress so they come back again for another 15 minutes next week.

Any racer can be played for lap times, Mario Kart 64 can be played against your own ghost if you so please, all you guys are doing is giving these games an excuse for having three courses and no extras.

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Absolutely correct on all points.

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Originally Posted by sheath

All we are doing is describing the gameplay and pointing out that there is nearly infinite "content" because the games were designed to nearly infinitely reward additional practice. This is not the case with many episodic racers, car RPGs, Arcade racers and Sandbox racers.

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That's not really true. So basically, your entire case is that because you like Daytona and Sega Rally more than other racing games, you think that it doesn't matter that they've got nothing for features other than playing for time. But you somehow don't seem to realize, or admit at least, that that's all entirely based on subjective opinion. Objective fact is that the games have minimal featuresets to say the least. Doe they have great replay value? Sure! But does that make up for the missing main game mode? Your argument "well because I think they're good, it does" is not exactly a compelling argument to say the least.

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In some of these more DVD extra rich racers the primary design point of the game is to get all the stuff, finish first in all of the tracks, or simply screw with cars. In the case of these games less cars and tracks and modes would make them woefully content deprived.

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Why do you think that because a game has a championship mode or more tracks people won't want to get good at it? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. If it's a good racing game, some people are going to want to get good at it, regardless of its featureset. Not having a championship mode certainly does not give Daytona any kind of advantage in that regard, given how that makes it more likely that people will simply stop playing it early than if it had an actual full single player game...

Also, I don't really know which racing games you're talking about there, but why is time inherently better than place, to you? I don't agree with that, certainly. I'm much more interested, myself, in winning races than in finishing in a fastest time; I mean, time is nice too, but it's never going to be the main draw for me. And I know many people agree with me on that point. I'm not European, I like winning races, not playing timetrials. I mean, sure, I like Trackmania a lot, but sometimes I wish you could race against other people that weren't ghosts... point is, your seeming "timed modes are better" attitude is purely an opinion. My opinion on that is different. And you know how to cater to all audiences? You make your home console game more full-featured, that's how. Like the Dreamcast Daytona and Sega Rally 2 games. As pure racing games they might not quite match up to the 1995 Saturn versions, but on features they blow them away, so I'm sure that a lot of people played them more than they did the Saturn games.

Oh, and I don't think that DC Daytona (played with standard pad) handles any worse than the Daytone CE on Saturn that I have (when played with 3D Controller), or, for that matter, the first version when you play it with the 3D Controller's analog stick. All three have extremely jerky turning controls with a gamepad, and are only smooth with a wheel, or, for the first Saturn version, the Mission Stick. It's kind of odd how all of the versions of the game are like that, but they are. And that's why I like the first Saturn version best, with Mission Stick your controls are so much better... (Of course CE with the wheel's good too, but I don't have a DC wheel sadly...)

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In the case of Daytona or Sega Rally or Outrun the shift to such things as unlockables, car tweaking and more modes completely changes the nature of the game and takes the player's attention away from the core mechanics. Take the average Need for Speed or Gran Turismo serial purchaser and give them a Daytona or Sega Rally game with dozens of tracks and cars and they will simply try to see all of the tracks and cars and will never bother to learn how the power slide mechanic allows for maintaining maximum speed in every curve.

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I'm not comparing Daytona and Sega Rally to games like those, though. I'm comparing it to other racing games that same generation, on the N64 and (later) PS1. You don't seem to quite get that. Anyway though, "if there are more tracks people won't try to get good at them"? That's absurd! Of course some people will, just like how some people will try to get good at Sega Rally or Daytona. The only difference between the two is the number of tracks, not how likely people are to try to get better, I think. It think you're overstating how many Sega Rally or Daytona players put in that effort. I doubt it's a too different number from other top-quality racing games that do have championship modes; other players are likely to simply stop playing Sega Rally or Daytona a lot sooner than they would those other games, because there's a whole lot less to do.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Absolutely correct on all points.

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Thus saith the lord.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

That's not really true. So basically, your entire case is that because you like Daytona and Sega Rally more than other racing games, you think that it doesn't matter that they've got nothing for features other than playing for time.

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Listen, you are wrong about Virtual On, dead flat silly wrong. It doesn't require twin sticks to play well, in fact it is at least arguably more intuitive with the gamepad on the Saturn and Dreamcast for anybody who will actually try to play it. My position on Daytona and Sega Rally is about their gameplay and track design, not my opinion of the games proper. The gameplay and track design make them infinitely replayable and infinitely rewarding. Meaning that short of absolute obsession and tournament level effort a gamer will not likely see everything these games have to offer in their "featureless" presentation.

I refuse to offer you any more if you are going to twist my words and efforts to look more like yours. I'm glad you like some games and not others, and feel some features should always exist and others simply don't matter. I'm not glad that because you can't be bothered to play a game you call it unplayable and call that a "review". I'm also sure you have a belly button.

Updated with a big update that does 11 more reviews, through Virtua Cop 2. Should be able to finish up covering all of the games in the next update, I think.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

It doesn't . Its the Saturn version right down the mesh effects.

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Huh, that's interesting. I don't know if I'll get the Saturn version anytime soon though, wiht how it doesn't have the additions the PS1 version has, and that it'd cost import prices too...

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Originally Posted by sheath

Listen, you are wrong about Virtual On, dead flat silly wrong. It doesn't require twin sticks to play well, in fact it is at least arguably more intuitive with the gamepad on the Saturn and Dreamcast for anybody who will actually try to play it.

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Maybe it'd work well on Saturn with that "buttons as the second stick" mode, but not with the default controls, no. Not for me.

I mean, seriously, VOOT takes six pages from its manual to explain all of the basic moves that you need to know in order to play the game on a basic level. Six pages! That's a lot, and you DO need to know all of those things to not lose. And you can't admit that it's complex, seriously?

And yes, I know that the twinstick mode has as many moves, but with the sticks, going by those pictures up there, they're clearly easier to use. I'm used to tank controls like that, I had an RC car when I was a kid where you turned by pressing one stick up and the other down, for instance. If Saturn Virtual-On actually does have a control scheme like that on the gamepad, maybe I WILL get it... that could be fun.

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My position on Daytona and Sega Rally is about their gameplay and track design, not my opinion of the games proper. The gameplay and track design make them infinitely replayable and infinitely rewarding.

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Exactly as I said, it's based on your opinion that you think those games have better track designs than other games. I don't see it, no. I mean, sure, they have great track designs. But demonstrably better than other great racing games that generation? Sure I'd put those two high on the list for the generation, but the tracks alone aren't my favorites, no. My point was that you're basing your entire case on opinion, and then are acting like it's fact; it's not, it's opinion.

The gameplay's great sure, and that's what really carries those two games. Not the tracks in specific.

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Meaning that short of absolute obsession and tournament level effort a gamer will not likely see everything these games have to offer in their "featureless" presentation.

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This is probably true, particularly for Sega Rally, but can't you see that by not having a championship mode you turn off a lot of gamers, and disincentivize them from wanting to keep going? I mean, playing a game over and over with no reward is no fun for most people... and it doesn't hurt the game in any other way to have such features, either. I really can't understand why you'd think it would. I mean, do you really think that DC Daytona is worse because it has a championship mode (all gameplay and control differences aside, just because of that), or that Sega Rally 2 is worse than the first one not because of the controls or track designs, but simply because it's got a championship season mode? I don't know, I'm trying to figure out why you're so insistent that Daytona and Sega Rally would not be improved at all had they had championships. Maybe you wouldn't care, but as you might have been able to tell from this thread, not everyone agrees with you on that point.

Also, remember, as I've said I think that Sega Rally and the first version of Daytona are two of the best racing games of that generation, so you can't say that I don't like the games!

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I refuse to offer you any more if you are going to twist my words and efforts to look more like yours.

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I'm certainly not twisting your words.

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I'm glad you like some games and not others, and feel some features should always exist and others simply don't matter.

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Everyone has their own opinions about what features they like and which ones they don't like. You're certainly no different on that regard, this argument has made that quite clear.

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I'm not glad that because you can't be bothered to play a game you call it unplayable and call that a "review". I'm also sure you have a belly button.

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Stupid insults like this aren't nice and certainly aren't true. I mean, first, I didn't review Virtual-On here, I've never played it for Saturn so of course I can't. As for your other false claim here, I didn't use the word "unplayable" once in the entire first post in this thread. Go back and check. Have you forgotten that my comments about VOOT were just some comments in the thread, and not anything that I'd call a review? I do think I'd be justified using that term for Criticom, though... :)

As for Daytona and Sega Rally, I didn't say anything that other people on this forum don't entirely agree with, so it's not anything controversial. You're just being really, REALLY defensive of those games.

I used to have Twin Sticks for the DC, and it was really the only way to fly:) I wouldn't go so far as to call the game unplayable using a controller, but it was much less enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Maybe it'd work well on Saturn with that "buttons as the second stick" mode, but not with the default controls, no. Not for me.

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I seriously doubt it, that mode sound almost impossible. We're talking about tank controls with digital pads at that point. It is much simpler to simply point a direction on the D-Pad and hit the booster, firing auto aims but causes a slight pause at the end of the dash that can be taken advantage of, and jump/cancel to auto face your opponent and fire whatever weapon you want. It really is that simple. There are only a handful of super hard to pull of super moves that are difficult with the standard pad. Even with twin sticks, if you waste time using the sticks to find your enemy you are just going to get shot.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I mean, seriously, VOOT takes six pages from its manual to explain all of the basic moves that you need to know in order to play the game on a basic level. Six pages! That's a lot, and you DO need to know all of those things to not lose. And you can't admit that it's complex, seriously?

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It is a very nuanced game, it is not hard to pick up and play. Why can you not see the difference, this is the entirety of my argument here. I didn't even find your Daytona review negative, I don't care whether you like it or Virtual On, but you're making these absolutist statements about quality that are just your opinion.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

And yes, I know that the twinstick mode has as many moves, but with the sticks, going by those pictures up there, they're clearly easier to use. I'm used to tank controls like that, I had an RC car when I was a kid where you turned by pressing one stick up and the other down, for instance. If Saturn Virtual-On actually does have a control scheme like that on the gamepad, maybe I WILL get it... that could be fun.

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I have managed to get casual gamers to play Virtual On on the Dreamcast and XBLA with me using the standard gamepad controls of the Saturn and Dreamcast games. I have not been able to get anybody to use the Dual Analog sticks in the XBLA or my Twin Sticks to play the game well. Hell, after using the gamepad settings I have a hard time getting something as simple as the dash to work because I'm used to it being even easier to use.

The game was designed for twinsticks, yes but it is as far from unplayable with the standard Saturn and Dreamcast gamepads as Mario 64 is with a Saturn digital pad.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Exactly as I said, it's based on your opinion that you think those games have better track designs than other games. I don't see it, no. I mean, sure, they have great track designs. But demonstrably better than other great racing games that generation? Sure I'd put those two high on the list for the generation, but the tracks alone aren't my favorites, no. My point was that you're basing your entire case on opinion, and then are acting like it's fact; it's not, it's opinion.

The gameplay's great sure, and that's what really carries those two games. Not the tracks in specific.

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You are adding the "better track designs" there, I didn't say that, I am not saying that Daytona and Sega Rally have better track designs than other games. That would be absurd, I mean we're talking about, in some cases, comparing these game's tracks to real world racing tracks and calling the game tracks superior. I don't even want to go there, I am not a track designer.

I don't know why you can't see what I am saying, it is so incredibly simple and so many gamers can't see it. Extra modes does not equate to more content in these kinds of games, high quality gameplay and level design does.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

This is probably true, particularly for Sega Rally, but can't you see that by not having a championship mode you turn off a lot of gamers, and disincentivize them from wanting to keep going? I mean, playing a game over and over with no reward is no fun for most people... and it doesn't hurt the game in any other way to have such features, either. I really can't understand why you'd think it would. I mean, do you really think that DC Daytona is worse because it has a championship mode (all gameplay and control differences aside, just because of that), or that Sega Rally 2 is worse than the first one not because of the controls or track designs, but simply because it's got a championship season mode? I don't know, I'm trying to figure out why you're so insistent that Daytona and Sega Rally would not be improved at all had they had championships. Maybe you wouldn't care, but as you might have been able to tell from this thread, not everyone agrees with you on that point.

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Right, I am not arguing with you that your perception is popular, not at all. The reason I am arguing it is because it is a popular misconception. All games are not supposed to function exactly like popular franchises, it didn't used to be that way and the tides have already started to turn back.

I already mentioned that I know plenty of Daytona fans that can't stand Daytona on Dreamcast, mainly because all of the extra features screwed with the core gameplay.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Also, remember, as I've said I think that Sega Rally and the first version of Daytona are two of the best racing games of that generation, so you can't say that I don't like the games!

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I'm not saying you don't like them, I'm saying you don't appreciate what they really are.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

I'm certainly not twisting your words.

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I am describing the games, and you are coming back and saying that my argument boils down to me preferring these games over all others. You are twisting my words.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Everyone has their own opinions about what features they like and which ones they don't like. You're certainly no different on that regard, this argument has made that quite clear.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

Stupid insults like this aren't nice and certainly aren't true. I mean, first, I didn't review Virtual-On here, I've never played it for Saturn so of course I can't. As for your other false claim here, I didn't use the word "unplayable" once in the entire first post in this thread. Go back and check. Have you forgotten that my comments about VOOT were just some comments in the thread, and not anything that I'd call a review? I do think I'd be justified using that term for Criticom, though... :)

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Stop making absolute statements about your opinions and you won't attract this kind attention. You surely did call Virtual On unplayable, I'm not referring to a review.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

You're right, I haven't played Saturn Virtual-On so I forgot about it. Is it as unplayable with a gamepad as the DC one is? I mean, I have Oratorio Tangram, and it's so horribly unplayable on gamepad that that game's no fun at all. I can see your "fast-paced Toshinden" comment, though, like that game you don't lock on to the enemy, but instead run around a 3d arena... but because of that really fast pace, VO(OT, the one I've played) is quite difficult to get used to. Toshinden's slow, so you can deal with it better.

VOOT's got absolutely nothing for features either, arcade, versus, options, and nothing else. And those Twin Stick controllers, for Saturn or DC, cost a lot. So I've been far from convinced that I'd consider Saturn Virtual-On worth the money...

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Your comments and your reviews are not different because your review, as you said yourself, are just your opinions. You can't renege on that now.

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Originally Posted by A Black Falcon

As for Daytona and Sega Rally, I didn't say anything that other people on this forum don't entirely agree with, so it's not anything controversial. You're just being really, REALLY defensive of those games.

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Yup, your opinions go with the misinformed masses of online forum goers. And some of them are as absolutely missing the point of these games.

It's not like I haven't had this problem with popular games either, I do, I don't get them and I admit it even if I think I can see the appeal. But if I were to go around claiming that a good sandbox game isn't great because it doesn't have a specific mode that Grand Theft Auto III had, I'm just stating an opinion.