Comparison of 6th generation game console hardware

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Originally Posted by saturndual32

So, whats the setback on using the awesome lightning effects that Lobotomy used on Duke Nukem 3D and Powerslave, both of which are superior in that regard, to their Playstation counterparts and many other PS1 fps. I mean, you would think that the engines performance would take a big hit, but even with those killer lightning effect on, Powerslave and Duke 3D, put to shame most Saturn game engines in framerate, detail, polygons counts, etc.

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The setback is of course that you have to calculate the direction, intensity, etc of the lightning which further uses up the limited CPU resources the machine has for calculating 3d stuff. I think I remember Chris Coffin mentioning that they did a SCU DSP based lightning calculator that could process up to 3 light sources...

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Also, what type of effects were being used on the textures of Duke 3D for the Saturn?, they sparkled, compared to their PS1 counterpart.

Shame that Lobotomy didnt get to work on more Saturn titles.

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Seems to be the same thing, gouraud shading on paletted textures.
In fact it seems to be that the whole trick of doing gouraud shading on palettes was known from the very beginning, since the floating cubes in the BIOS used them too.

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

The cause is simple: the VDP2 can not draw the rotating background in hi-res. It is always drawn in normal res. So it is rendered at 352x224 while the sprites and bitmap wallpapers in the background are packing four times as much detail (and the ground in the arcade version being 2.4x more detailed - not even counting the difference in texture sizes).

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Are you sure about that? Last time I looked at it I'm pretty sure the documents said VDP2 can run in whatever resolution it wants to including the rotating planes. And when you look at titles like Last Bronx, Digital Dance Mix, and Dead or Alive the VDP2 floors look pretty crisp and detailed. So are you sure this isn't just an issue of the Arcade using higher quality textures since it has more memory to allow that?

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

The setback is of course that you have to calculate the direction, intensity, etc of the lightning which further uses up the limited CPU resources the machine has for calculating 3d stuff. I think I remember Chris Coffin mentioning that they did a SCU DSP based lightning calculator that could process up to 3 light sources...



Seems to be the same thing, gouraud shading on paletted textures.
In fact it seems to be that the whole trick of doing gouraud shading on palettes was known from the very beginning, since the floating cubes in the BIOS used them too.

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Its interesting, because even without taking into account the lightning effects, Duke Nukem 3D still looks and runs better than any other similar game on the system. That Slave Driver engine was so good, that even taking a strain from the lightning and gouraud shadding, its still running smooth and displays a ton of stuff compared with similar Saturn titles.

Would have been interesting to see a fourth game from Lobotomy, developed with the strengths of the Saturn in mind, instead of another port.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Are you sure about that? Last time I looked at it I'm pretty sure the documents said VDP2 can run in whatever resolution it wants to including the rotating planes. And when you look at titles like Last Bronx, Digital Dance Mix, and Dead or Alive the VDP2 floors look pretty crisp and detailed. So are you sure this isn't just an issue of the Arcade using higher quality textures since it has more memory to allow that?

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Saturn tech bulleting #24 says:

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The following cautionary items are to be noted when changing from VDP2's TV screen mode to high-resolution mode:

- Normal scroll screen (NBG 0~3) is displayed as if normal mode picture is reduced by half, in the horizontal direction.

- Rotational scroll (RBG 0, 1) can be displayed, however, the picture resolution will be the same as the normal mode's.

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That's actually mentioned somewhat in the VDP2 dev manual but in more detail. It only applies to what they call "Special High Resolution Mode", which I believe is what they refer to for the resolutions for special monitors (Hi-Vison, 31KHz mode, etc.), not the Interlaced modes.

Look at the other bit it describes with normal scroll screens being displayed as if the horizontal resolution is reduced by half. This isn't what you see in High Res Mode at all. When you refer to the VDP2 Manual though we see that this is mentioned again for the special monitor high-res mode. It goes into further detail to state that how this mode works is by displaying NBG0 and NBG1 in half resolution right next to each other to form one screen. So you have to have all your updates and everything for those two layers in sync or you'll get display errors. If VF2 was using this mode it would be apparent when you disable one of the normal scroll layers in an emulator like SSF. According to how this is written we should only see half the layer disappear. However in SSF we see the entire layer disappear and that each layer is being used for different layers of the background.

So with that information how I interpret that tech bulletin is that for the Hi-Vision mode you need to display 2 normal scroll layers as one layer for it to work, but the rotational display isn't affected by this because it will still display in the normal high resolution mode.

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Originally Posted by VPD2 Manual

l
2.1 TV Screen Mode
VDP2 can display images in 31 kHz monitors as well as high-vision monitors, and in
NTSC and PAL standards for TV. There are three kinds of image displaying TV
screen modes: normal, high-resolution, and special monitor. Screen scan format can
be selected from three types: non-interlace, single-density interlace, and double-
density interlace. A register showing TV scan conditions is also provided.
Table 2.1 shows the TV screen modes that are selectable, the graphics mode, and the
current resolution. Furthermore, special settings are required when indicating
special high-resolution graphics A and special high-resolution graphics B.

Table 2.1 TV Screen mode
http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps5af8465d.png


Special High-Resolution Graphics Mode

The graphics mode of special high-resolution graphics A or B displays one screen by
joining the NBG0 and NBG1 screens. If the following setting is not performed, the
display will not appear correctly.

• Must be able to display only NBG0 and NBG1.
• The NBG0 and NBG1 character pattern tables (or, bit map pattern) and pattern
name tables must use the exact same data.
• Must be able to reduce both NBG0 and NBG1 horizontally up to 50%.
• Set the vertical direction screen scroll values of NBG0 and NBG1 so that they
are identical.
• Set the NBG1 horizontal screen scroll value at the NBG0 horizontal screen
scroll value plus 1.
• Set both NBG0 and NBG1 horizontal coordinate increments at 2.
• Set the color RAM mode to 0.
• Set the priority numbers of NBG0 and NBG1 at the same value.
• Do not enter the line color screen.
• Special priority of both NBG0 and NBG1 should be in mode 0.
• Do not use the color calculation function.
• For registers other than those listed above, NBG0 and NBG1 settings should
be the same

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The "special" hi-res modes are the progressive scan monitor modes (VGA and Hi-Vision as the manual calls them). The "normal" interlaced hi-res modes are not subject to those restrictions. That is not to say that they don't have restrictions, just no so radical ones. And no emulator can display the monitor modes right by the way (the two entire tech demos that use them)...

What the tech bulletin means is that in hi-res mode, the normal scroll screens are half the size relative to the screen size, as opposed to in normal resolution. Which is, er, normal: if you have a 320x224 pixel bitmap on one background, it will fill the entire screen in normal res, but only half of it in hi-res (or a quarter in interlaced hi-res). Because you have a bigger "canvas" to use, as the resolution has indeed increased.
The rotated backgrounds however, are not subject to this. They always display as in normal mode: their resolution does not increase.

Remember that those manuals were all translated from Japanese, so they word many things rather oddly (like a pixel is called a dot).

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Try looking at videos which aren't sub-VHS quality.

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I still have my Saturn set up with Scart and can see the difference between Last Bronx and VF 2 running on the same console in RBG Scart . Last Bronx looks far more like its Arcade version, while VF 2 went for smoother looking arms and joints .

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where you can clearly see that the ground on the Saturn version is much less detailed

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I'm not seeing any differece tbh and I'm betting most of the so called VF 2 Arcade footage is Emu and captured running from that (which in a lot of cases will help it look better). Also in VF kids and Mega Mix AM#2 improved the floor and were able to add more clothing effects to the characters and so on

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

The "special" hi-res modes are the progressive scan monitor modes (VGA and Hi-Vision as the manual calls them). The "normal" interlaced hi-res modes are not subject to those restrictions. That is not to say that they don't have restrictions, just no so radical ones.

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I know, that's what I said.

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

What the tech bulletin means is that in hi-res mode, the normal scroll screens are half the size relative to the screen size, as opposed to in normal resolution. Which is, er, normal: if you have a 320x224 pixel bitmap on one background, it will fill the entire screen in normal res, but only half of it in hi-res (or a quarter in interlaced hi-res). Because you have a bigger "canvas" to use, as the resolution has indeed increased.
The rotated backgrounds however, are not subject to this. They always display as in normal mode: their resolution does not increase.

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But the normal scroll screens are not half the size of the screen. That bulletin specifically says "Normal scroll screen (NBG 0~3) is displayed as if normal mode picture is reduced by half, in the horizontal direction." The way that's worded it's not about a low res image being smaller in high res mode, it's literally saying that a normal scroll screen will only take up half the horizontal screen space in high res mode. This isn't true for interlaced high res mode, but it is true for the special high res mode that is only for Hi-Vision and 31KHz displays. So it's far more likely that this tech bulletin is referring to the special monitor high res modes, not the normal modes.

A good example to look at for this would be Fighter's Megamix. In that the 3D Models are rendered in low-resolution mode while everything VDP2 related is rendered in High-Res mode. So if the rotating planes were really rendered in low res mode they should look just as pixelated as the fighters. However they don't. The floors look a lot crisper and cleaner than the fighters do.

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

Remember that those manuals were all translated from Japanese, so they word many things rather oddly (like a pixel is called a dot).

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The bulletins were most likely translated from Japanese too, so they might not be completely accurate either. Not to mention I'm pretty sure the VDP2 Manual revision I was looking at was dated after that tech bulletin.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

But the normal scroll screens are not half the size of the screen.

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They are if you enable hi-res modes without taking the larger screen size into account. Go into the BIOS memory manager in Yabause and use the action replay code 15f80000 80c2 to see what happens when you just switch resolutions as-is. It switches the resolution to 640x448i, and you'll have the backgrounds repeating to fit the different screen size. That is what the bulletin is about. If you check the BIOS cd player with that code, you'll see the starfield repeating too (it's a normal background), but the spinning nebula will stay as it is (it's a rotating background).
You can try using this in games too if you have an action replay. I think Cotton Boomerang will show more of the screen if you switch it to high res (with 80c3 as it runs in 352x mode). You might need 00 instead of 80 too, it depends on the game.

The special monitor modes have absolutely nothing to do with that bulletin whatsoever. It was a novelty that went completely unsupported on the Saturn, beyond "the vdp2 has that mode" written in the docs.

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A good example to look at for this would be Fighter's Megamix. In that the 3D Models are rendered in low-resolution mode while everything VDP2 related is rendered in High-Res mode. So if the rotating planes were really rendered in low res mode they should look just as pixelated as the fighters. However they don't. The floors look a lot crisper and cleaner than the fighters do.

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They are as pixelated as the fighters. Take a screenshot and enlarge it, you'll see that the pixel size of the ground matches that of the fighters (standard res), but not that of the lifebar and bitmap backgrounds (hi res).

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

They are if you enable hi-res modes without taking the larger screen size into account. Go into the BIOS memory manager in Yabause and use the action replay code 15f80000 80c2 to see what happens when you just switch resolutions as-is. It switches the resolution to 640x448i, and you'll have the backgrounds repeating to fit the different screen size. That is what the bulletin is about. If you check the BIOS cd player with that code, you'll see the starfield repeating too (it's a normal background), but the spinning nebula will stay as it is (it's a rotating background).
You can try using this in games too if you have an action replay. I think Cotton Boomerang will show more of the screen if you switch it to high res (with 80c3 as it runs in 352x mode). You might need 00 instead of 80 too, it depends on the game.

The special monitor modes have absolutely nothing to do with that bulletin whatsoever. It was a novelty that went completely unsupported on the Saturn, beyond "the vdp2 has that mode" written in the docs.

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I wouldn't really trust Yabause for this kind of accuracy. The emulator isn't that great and has trouble running even simple 2D games. Have you tried those AR codes on real hardware?

To release a tech bulletin to tell developers that "Hey if you use high res-mode you need to use high res images" seems completely unnecessary as any developer with half a brain should be able to figure that out. That's self-explanatory and not something you release a tech-bulletin for. I'm much more inclined to believe that that tech bulletin is associated with the special high-res modes (even though they weren't used), as the behavior described fits more in line with what is described for that mode in the VDP2 manual. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think we should treat a vague tech-bulletin as absolute fact.

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

They are as pixelated as the fighters. Take a screenshot and enlarge it, you'll see that the pixel size of the ground matches that of the fighters (standard res), but not that of the lifebar and bitmap backgrounds (hi res).

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I think the pixelation has more to do with the fact that the image is being scaled and warped. If you zoom into a high res image it's eventually going to get pixelated. Look at the stage that has the title screen image for the floor. When it's shown from the top down at the right scale it looks pretty much just as crisp as it does on the title screen.

Digital Dance Mix also has very crisp and clean floors too. I think you might be confusing low quality textures for low resolution rendering.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I wouldn't really trust Yabause for this kind of accuracy. The emulator isn't that great and has trouble running even simple 2D games. Have you tried those AR codes on real hardware?

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Yes.



This is with the game running at 704x448 instead of 704x448 (title screen, treasure logo) and 352x224 (options, ingame, highscores). VDP1 stuff is completely unaffected. VDP2 Normal backgrounds are either repeated with garbage pulled from VRAM (options, high score), are full of garbage or not displayed at all (ingame). VDP2 Rotating backgrounds are however also unaffected (the few backgrounds that DO display in-game are all on the RBG0).

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To release a tech bulletin to tell developers that "Hey if you use high res-mode you need to use high res images" seems completely unnecessary as any developer with half a brain should be able to figure that out. That's self-explanatory and not something you release a tech-bulletin for. I'm much more inclined to believe that that tech bulletin is associated with the special high-res modes (even though they weren't used), as the behavior described fits more in line with what is described for that mode in the VDP2 manual. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't think we should treat a vague tech-bulletin as absolute fact.

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It's not that clear. The machine could just bump up into a higher detail mode with all x/y coordinates remaining as is (like it happens on modern hardware!), since most of the backgrounds can scale anyway. Hence the bulletin, to clarify things: normal backgrounds need hi-res assets, rotating backgrounds are displayed as in normal res.

It also mentions a few other limitations to hi-res modes beyond those.

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I think the pixelation has more to do with the fact that the image is being scaled and warped. If you zoom into a high res image it's eventually going to get pixelated. Look at the stage that has the title screen image for the floor. When it's shown from the top down at the right scale it looks pretty much just as crisp as it does on the title screen.

Digital Dance Mix also has very crisp and clean floors too. I think you might be confusing low quality textures for low resolution rendering.

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No, you are wrong. Take a screenshot, enlarge it, compare the size of the pixels that make up the ground to those that make up any other hi-res parts. It's not a question of texture quality, VDP2 rotating background is just never rendered in hi-res, on any game.

Ah ok, if the code works on real hardware then that's good enough for me. It is still quite odd though. It would be wonderful if the Saturn documents weren't such a vague mess.

I am curious though if the rotating planes are actually low resolution or if it's some kind of scaling. Since those layers can obviously do scaling it wouldn't necessarily be hard for it to just scale it's assets to whatever resolution it's running at. And a low res texture on a high res plane wouldn't really look all that different from a low res plane. That might explain why some games do appear to have really crisp and clear floor textures (when viewed straight on from above, not when they are actually rotating and warping). One could easily interpret that bulletin as saying that you don't need high res assets for rotating planes as they will still be displayed properly, but the asset resolution won't increase obviously.

As stated, Digital Dance Mix's floors are quite crisp, especially when you view them straight on. I find it a bit shocking for those to really be low resolution:

It's not really odd. Those bulletins are basically tech memos. And it includes more info on restrictions than the two lines I posted.

For the rotating backgrounds, they can be fully controlled on all three axes, and they are perspective correct. Which is why they look really good (no messy texture warping). But they are still low resolution. Of course, on youtube videos, recorded through composite video, they look as good as any other asset of a game.

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

It's not really odd. Those bulletins are basically tech memos. And it includes more info on restrictions than the two lines I posted.

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I wasn't referring to the bulletin being odd, but the limitation itself. It just seems a bit odd that the rotating backgrounds wouldn't be capable of higher resolution as well. That's why I was curious if it might just be scaling or something they were referring to. Though the only way to really determine that would be to examine each game's assets to see what resolution the floor assets are.

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Originally Posted by zyrobs

For the rotating backgrounds, they can be fully controlled on all three axes, and they are perspective correct. Which is why they look really good (no messy texture warping). But they are still low resolution. Of course, on youtube videos, recorded through composite video, they look as good as any other asset of a game.

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Even through SSF the floors looked rather crisp.

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I think Cotton Boomerang will show more of the screen if you switch it to high res

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Boomerang menu screens run in High Res mode anyway

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VDP2 rotating background is just never rendered in hi-res, on any game.

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What about the title screens that run in High Res that seemed to use the VDP 2 for some effects like Soukyugurentai or Thunder Force V menu screens or intro . Sonic Jam looks to be using the High Res mode and some VDP 2 effects in its gallery section too. Also the VDP2 floors don't seem to be low res at all . And before you jump on my back, I'm just saying