Advantages of SNES hardware vs. Genesis hardware

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Originally Posted by Raijin

I guess it would count more towards being PCM, although it's so basic like the SCC or N163 that I don't know if I could call it that. The only difference to typical PSG chips is that you can draw the waveforms, besides a few other features the chip has. When I think of PCM, I think more to the likes of the SNES.

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SCC is referred to as WSG (wave sound generation). The N163 wasn't really given a name.

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The only difference to typical PSG chips is that you can draw the waveforms, besides a few other features the chip has.

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And that's a pretty big difference. You can say the same about SNES or Paula on the Amiga. They simply play PCM waveforms, no timbre bending or such on a technical level. The typical 'PSG' chip is usually limited to 4 channels; 3 tone and 1 noise. That's typical because that's the most popular PSG chip setup across platforms. They're square wave and don't even have selectable pulse widths. NES/famicom, despite being very popular, doesn't set the standard for typical PSG. It's quite advanced PSG chip, with more than one waveform type (triangle channel) and selectable pulse widths for the two main channels. But even as advanced as it is, you're still limited as to which channel can play which waveform/tone. The PCE is not. You can play any PCM waveform design on *any* channel. Those two differences right there, playing PCM waveforms and on any channel (each having their own memory) - I would say is a pretty big difference. Of course not to mention being able to stream PCM data to any or all of the six channels.

The PCE chip also has a much finer frequency stepping than 'psg' chips. It lacks hardware timbre bending, but can you assign *any* note to any waveform. You can set it up so that *every* note in an octave range, or across multiple octave ranges, has a different timbre (example). I know of no PSG chips that can do that. The PCM memory can be update while the channel is playing, distorting the waveform over time (creating metallic timbre changes over time). If you treat the sound chip like a PSG setup, it'll sound like PSG. Or take advantage of the hardware and it won't. The PCE sound chip is no FM or such chip, but it can replicate quite a few instruments that PSG simply can not.



A ~simple~ example:
<-nes
<-tg16

The first bonk is by no means pushing the PCE sound chip (Bonk's Revenge has better instruments), but just listen to the trumpets that kick in at 0:25 in the TG16 clip vs nes one at 0:25. It's not a streaming sample.

Another:


One sounds like PSG to me, the other doesn't. Always did love those Bonk trumpet instruments.

I'd say that's a pretty poor example of how different the PCE can be from PSG (besides the trumpet those songs still sound super PSGish).

I'd say stuff like this is more PCMish (you aren't doing these on a NES):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fhbf99ZrH3E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNR5Uis89XI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGkjDdM3jvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KtYL1D4xtM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IyCb-jFfUY

Shame there's so few soundtracks with this style (heck, even DE 2 is mostly bad PSG sounding...).

I get what you're saying now, and it makes sense. Though, all those videos, including the ones Kamahl linked sound very basic for a wavetable chip such as this (lots of mostly sawtooth sounding waves). Aldynes, Devil Crash and City Hunter sound better though.

All PCE music sounds pretty thin though. It sounds like they're only using maybe 3 channels.

I'll just call the PCE as chiptune PCM.

Its amazing how different the three consoles are.

Chiptune PCM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kqIEFjl44

Electric piano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPwAVGyJSr8

Very low-budget CD music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTpksvCC-hg

Your example of Genesis music was poor.

Now THIS is awesome Genesis music. (Though it is my YM3438 modded Genesis, it still sounds the same on a stock system).. Don't call this electric piano. ;)

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/yi83..._Tea_Time!.mp3

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Originally Posted by evildragon

Your example of Genesis music was poor.

Now THIS is awesome Genesis music. (Though it is my YM3438 modded Genesis, it still sounds the same on a stock system).. Don't call this electric piano. ;)

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/yi83..._Tea_Time!.mp3

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Well that site has very poor download speed, combined with Canadian internet, I'd like to listen to it though.


Could anyone think of a better nickname for Genesis music?

Techno powerhouse. That download is only a few MB's. It even streams it for you to make it simpler, just let the link load. I mean if you can link to a YouTube video, surely you can spare a few MB's?

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

Electric piano:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPwAVGyJSr8

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That's a rather poor Genesis example. Heck there's better examples from the same game:



And then there's the following great examples from so many other games:















Honestly I'd say a better way to describe the Genesis audio would be a TechnoRock Orchestra. The best sounding Genesis music has a very rich, smooth, fullness to it that the SNES rarely ever produces, though the PC-Engine tends to produce that quality a bit more often than the SNES does. That Salamander example you posted is a good example of that.

However if I ever bought a CD that sounded like Yoshi's Island I'd demand my money back.

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Originally Posted by Raijin

I get what you're saying now, and it makes sense. Though, all those videos, including the ones Kamahl linked sound very basic for a wavetable chip such as this (lots of mostly sawtooth sounding waves). Aldynes, Devil Crash and City Hunter sound better though.

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There's some simpler waveforms in there, but it's all dominated by complex waves and several cases of streaming PCM samples (mostly for percussion, but Devil Crash uses something like a mod player for the first track).

I'm guessing what you're hearing is the granularity or harmonics giving the "buzzy" sound to much of the PCE instruments even if the waves are nowhere near sawtooth or pulse waves. (and that's always going to be a problem for samples straining the limited 32 word wave memory . . . lower rate samples mean longer/more complex waves at the expense of quality) The game boy's wave synth channel is a bit better off in this respect given its 64 word length, though it's only using 4-bit samples rather than the PCE's 5-bit. (and since there's only one channel in that example, you don't have the real-world context of a really rich synth chip using 64x4-bit wave buffers, or even just doing one instrument with echo/reverb)




[QUOTE=azonicrider;613842]All PCE music sounds pretty thin though. It sounds like they're only using maybe 3 channels.

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I'll just call the PCE as chiptune PCM.

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Or just call it WSG synth. :p (these are ALL chiptunes in any case)

As to the channel count, a lot of those are slaving 1 or 2 channels for echo/reverb effects, and also remember the 5th and 6th channels also have to share a wave sample. (albeit a good choice to slave for echo)

On the note of few channels though, most Amiga games also have to work within similar limits given Paula's 4 hardware channels and games typically using little to no software mixing. (maybe slaving a channel for software mixing at a fixed rate for SFX and drums, but even that doesn't seem to have been particularly common -I think multi-channel mixing on the MD is actually a good bit more common)

And if you're going to use Bloodlines as an example, why not Old Sinking Sanctuary (not only one of the best original tracks there, but also playing to the strengths of the sound engine and avoiding those crappy FM drums :p )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxb7Zfay0dY#


Still, there's better examples of really good MD music, like Vapor Trail, Mega Turrican, pretty much anything done by Hitoshi Sakimoto (like Gauntlet IV and Master of Monsters)

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Its amazing how different the three consoles are.

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Even more amazing how different the music on any one of those consoles can sound. (perhaps least dramatic on the SNES . . . and most SNES music is very synthy sounding, then again, even some of the orchestral-centric music has a good deal of synthy sounding instruments -a lot sounds like samples of some sort of FM synth, like a Yamaha DX7)

Plus that track from Yoshi's island wouldn't have been my first choice for showing off SNES music that the PCE or MD couldn't do well. (ie rearrange to sound good for their hardware but still quite similar in style to the SNES rendition -ie not a total rearrangement/remix that makes more drastic changes)

Most of yoshi's island's instruments are extremely synthy sounding, sometimes more anlog-synth-esque, but closer to that than raw acoustic instrument samples.

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Originally Posted by evildragon

Techno powerhouse. That download is only a few MB's. It even streams it for you to make it simpler, just let the link load. I mean if you can link to a YouTube video, surely you can spare a few MB's?

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Its loading fine now. Yea that music is amazing, but unconventional compared to the common Genesis game.

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

That's a rather poor Genesis example. Heck there's better examples from the same game:



And then there's the following great examples from so many other games:



Honestly I'd say a better way to describe the Genesis audio would be a TechnoRock Orchestra. The best sounding Genesis music has a very rich, smooth, fullness to it that the SNES rarely ever produces, though the PC-Engine tends to produce that quality a bit more often than the SNES does. That Salamander example you posted is a good example of that.

However if I ever bought a CD that sounded like Yoshi's Island I'd demand my money back.

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What do you mean? Yoshi's Island has awesome music.

If I had it on CD, I'd pop in the Saturn every night and listen to Flower Garden.

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

All PCE music sounds pretty thin though. It sounds like they're only using maybe 3 channels.

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Ninja Spirit, Shinobi and even Keith Courage would like a word with you.

Ninja Spirit:
Attract Mode 1

Attract Mode 2

Attract Mode 3


Shinobi PCE Music:
BGM_A.mp3

BGM_B.mp3

BGM_Bonus.mp3

BGM_D.mp3

And I'll just leave Kieth Courage up to a simple Youtube search. The daytime levels in particular has a very dense tune, but the mech levels are good as well.

Well compared to Genesis music atleast. But it makes sense as they're probably using more channels on the Genesis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWPNxSD9YNY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjaW4ZYzVHI

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

Its loading fine now. Yea that music is amazing, but unconventional compared to the common Genesis game.



What do you mean? Yoshi's Island has awesome music.

If I had it on CD, I'd pop in the Saturn every night and listen to Flower Garden.

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I didn't say the soundtrack was bad, I said if I bought a CD or a game with supposedly CD audio and got that kind of audio I'd demand my money back. As that is no where near CD quality audio. That's like really low quality MIDI instead.

This is what CD audio sounds like:

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

All PCE music sounds pretty thin though. It sounds like they're only using maybe 3 channels.

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3 channels? That's absurd. Just listen to the bonk examples I posted. The first example, how much fuller the PCE version sounds compared to the NES. And the NES is using at least 4 channels (probably not using the 5th channel; DMC channel). In most PCE game musics, you clearly hear the bass line, drum kits, and main instrument ( playing chords no less, which is more than a single channel) followed by a fourth background instrument. 3 channels is like, bass line, drum kit, and single note instrument (no chords).

I've heard the PCE sound being referred to as thin or steel-y, or twang-y, but that's mostly because it's missing a fatter bottom end. You have to really EQ the shit out of the console audio out to get the lower frequency levels back up. And few games uses such bass-y instruments, but when they do (and the bottom end boosted) - it sounds pretty decent. It'll never have the full range of the 2612 or the SPC unit, nor will it have the dynamic timbre range of FM. But it definitely has a pretty unique sound. I never mistake PCE music for NES music or any other sound chips (save for, the SCC chip which is near identical).


It's supposed to sound like a chiptune, but I love saw tooth waveforms. Love 'em. (That's a pce version of the original). Musicians should have used the saw tooth waveform instead of the square, for PCE game music. The world would be a better place for it ;)

Edit: Old Sinking Sanctuary in the Genesis, is an incredible track.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

There's some simpler waveforms in there, but it's all dominated by complex waves and several cases of streaming PCM samples (mostly for percussion, but Devil Crash uses something like a mod player for the first track).

I'm guessing what you're hearing is the granularity or harmonics giving the "buzzy" sound to much of the PCE instruments even if the waves are nowhere near sawtooth or pulse waves. (and that's always going to be a problem for samples straining the limited 32 word wave memory . . . lower rate samples mean longer/more complex waves at the expense of quality) The game boy's wave synth channel is a bit better off in this respect given its 64 word length, though it's only using 4-bit samples rather than the PCE's 5-bit. (and since there's only one channel in that example, you don't have the real-world context of a really rich synth chip using 64x4-bit wave buffers, or even just doing one instrument with echo/reverb)

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First off, why do you say Devil Crash uses a mod player for that track? It sounds perfectly like a PCE to me.

Second, I use the N163 sometimes. The N163 is very similar to the PCE, though not completely the same. The N163 uses a single 256 byte wave shared between every channel. It does have more total channels than the PCE (though, the more you use, the more the annoying multiplex buzzing becomes apparent, and not only that, but the sample rate becomes smaller per enabled channel), and it can be used along with the NES' 2A03.
In any case, not to have things drag on here, the max wave size I used is 32 bytes, and even smaller ones too, so I know the PCE can do some impressive sounds if I can get the likes of the N163 to produce these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6QjMLxjQ8k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADfmsM5NS8Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymzHSbf2xFQ