Advantages of SNES hardware vs. Genesis hardware

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I didn't say the soundtrack was bad, I said if I bought a CD or a game with supposedly CD audio and got that kind of audio I'd demand my money back. As that is no where near CD quality audio. That's like really low quality MIDI instead.

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Well . . . low quality sample synth . . . calling it "MIDI" is bad form and misinforms (back in 2009 I was misinformed in this area . . . calling silpheed's synth music MIDI :p . . . or no-streaming synth music in general).

You could do MIDI on pretty much any sound chip or soft synth format, and indeed there's quite a bit of MIDI based music on the MD, and MIDI drivers used with MT-32 and Adlib/SB FM synth cards (including general midi drivers).

So sample based synthesis is the better term really . . . "low quality" is vague but fairly applicable in the same manner you could call Amiga music "low quality" sample synth. (SPC and Paula have different limitations, and barring CPU-intensive software mixing, neither is really a clear winner overall . . . albeit if you strictly limit RAM use on Paula, things get more obviously favorable for the SPC module :p )

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Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

You are aware that the PC-Engine CD released before the SNES right? The only Path SNES music is on is PC MIDI. It has far more in common with that than CD audio.

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More specifically, saying "low quality CD music" really doesn't mean much since CD is streaming audio and can be ANYTHING. A compact casette is more like a low quality (analog) CD than the SNES. :p

Semi-professional synthesizer hardware, like some late 80s/early 90s MIDI modules, that WERE actually supported in many computer games could very well apply to pretty realistic examples of low-end (ie low budget) CD audio arrangements for game music at the time . . . and some CD based games did use that sort of music in-game or in cutscenes. (or similar music using professional/semi professional synthesizers and/or modules -or a mix of that and some acoustic instruments)

And in terms of SNES games that had music of a style and quality in that vein, there are much, much better examples than Yoshi's island. Castlevania X comes to mind immediately, in part because it occassionally uses better sounding arrangements than the CD based PCE Rodo of Blood counterpart.

See:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1F5527A711160ADF

vs:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL60B3A83F3AAC6E44


The stage 1 music in particular is nice to compare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR0UjAQIX6E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZAkrvbsrBs



Speaking of synth modules and computer games . . . and keeping with the Castlevania theme, check out these SC-88 and MT-32 recordings of Castlevania Chronicles on the X68000:
http://www.youtube.com/user/rerolledDK/videos

And the complete soundtrack using the MT-32:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list..._GpnM-ZPkzrrI6

So CD quality, or not? ;) (would have been neat if some arcade games had used the MT-32 hardware . . . or if Roland had made more integrated/lower cost versions later on -but I guess they were focused on Geneeral MIDI by that point)

(also note I'm refraining from embedding to cut down on super bloated flash plugin issues . . . worse still since there's no "stop download" option on YT anymore)

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

Not MOD, but it does play up to three channels of streaming samples at times (it's dynamic; you can switch back and fourth between DDA mode and regular mode at any time. At a rate higher than 16khz too. Same with Noise mode. Some game alternate noise mode into an instrument definition). Though the game typically uses one or two channels for DDA (excluding sound FX). It's also one of the handful of games that uses waveform corruption on a channel.

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Thank you, so I'm not crazy; I knew I remembered reading that before. ;)

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Originally Posted by Raijin

]Second, I use the N163 sometimes. The N163 is very similar to the PCE, though not completely the same. The N163 uses a single 256 byte wave shared between every channel. It does have more total channels than the PCE (though, the more you use, the more the annoying multiplex buzzing becomes apparent, and not only that, but the sample rate becomes smaller per enabled channel), and it can be used along with the NES' 2A03.
In any case, not to have things drag on here, the max wave size I used is 32 bytes, and even smaller ones too, so I know the PCE can do some impressive sounds if I can get the likes of the N163 to produce these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6QjMLxjQ8k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADfmsM5NS8Q

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymzHSbf2xFQ[/video]

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These are really neat, and yeah the N163 is interesting . . . some neat flexibility compared to what the PCE does.

But going by: http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Namco_163_audio
It's 128 bytes, not 256, though it's 256 words since it seems to use 4-bit samples (each byte is 2 samples, more like the Game Boy).

With that in mind, did you mean 32 byte or 32-word waveforms, since 32 bytes would mean 64 samples in this context.

This also means the N163 has enough sample RAM for each of the 8 channels to use 32-nybble waveforms . . . and given you used all 8 channels, I assume you used that length. (of course, unlike the PCE, the programmable allocation of pattern memory would allow for longer or shorter samples, or fewer channels all with long waves -or using fewer, longer waves, with multiple channels using the same waveforms)

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Originally Posted by sheath

We already have terms for each system's sound that doesn't directly compare to modern standards. SNES is extremely short and reverb heavy compressed PCM audio (ADPCM-like), Genesis is FM+PSG+DAC, TG16 is WSG (tiny PCM sample based). CD-audio is real music recorded, or real keyboards recorded, in digital format. ADPCM with enough Audio RAM can replace CD-audio, but not with such a small amount of RAM as the SNES (or Sega CD/System 32 Ricoh).

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If you're going to list "DAC" on the MD, than note it on the PCE too. :p

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

A lot of the instruments in that video sound PSGish BT, They sound like something out of a gameboy. Drums and bass are huge offenders. Compile's stuff, soldier blade. batman and (very) few other songs do not have that cloud of PSG sound on them.

Other than the drums (which really are PSG since they're done on an AY chip), this is how WSG does not sound like PSG:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjpnGBALOGo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhg404vGork

Shame the PCE doesn't really have any soundtrack of this caliber excepting maybe stuff in Devil Crash.

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Huh, wow, I hadn't realized how similar some of Metal Gear 2's music was to Polaracer:
http://battleofthebits.org/player/Entry/3617/
(instrument wise, not so much composition)

I wonder if irrlicht project was influenced by that. In any case, that AYM track sure is WSG-ish for pure AY8910. ;)




Another note on the N163 though, I don't remember it being dicussed before, but it seems like several Namco arcade boards are using that chip too, or something related to it. (listed as 8-channel 4-bit WSG or PSG and used on SUPER PACMAN, SYSTEM 16 UNIVERSAL, GAPLUS, Pac Land, System 86, System 1, Thunder Ceptor, )
Given that includes many boards that predate the famicom (or at least arrived early in its life), I assume those weren't using the N163 itself, but perhaps the sound logic from those older chips was later integrated with the mapper logic in the N163/N106.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

If you're going to list "DAC" on the MD, than note it on the PCE too. :p

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Nope, because that is covered by all of the references to samples. I'm pretty sure the PCE doesn't have the timing issues the YM2612's DAC has anyway, I can't think of any reason to associate the two anyway.

The DAC is not having any issues, tis the stuff that puts stuff into the DAC that does :P

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Originally Posted by TmEE

The DAC is not having any issues, tis the stuff that puts stuff into the DAC that does :P

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Fair enough. Either way, would you call the PCE's channels DAC or Sample Based Synth?

God guys I never said "literally", on the SNES low-quality CD music. I just meant that its closer to CD music than the Genesis and PCE are.

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Originally Posted by sheath

Fair enough. Either way, would you call the PCE's channels DAC or Sample Based Synth?

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Its a sampler to me, I only call synths things that actually generate the sound.

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Originally Posted by kool kitty89

These are really neat, and yeah the N163 is interesting . . . some neat flexibility compared to what the PCE does.

But going by: http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Namco_163_audio
It's 128 bytes, not 256, though it's 256 words since it seems to use 4-bit samples (each byte is 2 samples, more like the Game Boy).

With that in mind, did you mean 32 byte or 32-word waveforms, since 32 bytes would mean 64 samples in this context.

This also means the N163 has enough sample RAM for each of the 8 channels to use 32-nybble waveforms . . . and given you used all 8 channels, I assume you used that length. (of course, unlike the PCE, the programmable allocation of pattern memory would allow for longer or shorter samples, or fewer channels all with long waves -or using fewer, longer waves, with multiple channels using the same waveforms)

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Sorry, I made a mistake. Famitracker only supports 128 sample waves atm. The actual N163 is capable of 256 sample waves. Some N163 games, like Rolling Thunder for example, use 64 sample waves.

By the way, Here's something you all may find interesting. Strobe made a track in Deflemask for the PC Engine that he has on Battle of the Bits. He has up to 5 channels playing Samples at once. In theory, this can probably be played on a real PCE no problem.
http://battleofthebits.org/arena/Ent...f+Luala/10359/

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

God guys I never said "literally", on the SNES low-quality CD music. I just meant that its closer to CD music than the Genesis and PCE are.

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In what way (not counting the fact that both the Genesis and PCE have games with CD sound)?

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

In what way (not counting the fact that both the Genesis and PCE have games with CD sound)?

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Usage of "real" instruments I guess?

This is pretty close to it's CD counterpart:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LuFBlUNoRY

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Usage of "real" instruments I guess?

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Yes the real, authentic samples that fuel the endless alpha egos of SNES fans.

Honestly I played a clarinet in high school, but otherwise I don't know much about audio. Audio is probably my weakest knowledge in video games. What are really the requirements for CD music?

does this qualify?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRyduAPorw0

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Usage of "real" instruments I guess?

This is pretty close to it's CD counterpart:

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Yeah, but if you take a game with a super synth-heavy CD soundtrack and then create a very "authentic" sounding synth track on the PCE or MD, what then?

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Originally Posted by sheath

Nope, because that is covered by all of the references to samples. I'm pretty sure the PCE doesn't have the timing issues the YM2612's DAC has anyway, I can't think of any reason to associate the two anyway.

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No, I meant list the fact that the PCE's channels can be used in direct DAC mode for playing long samples with CPU assistance, very much like the DAC mode in the YM2612. And you have to sacrifice channels in both cases too. (or 2 channels if you want better than 5-bit PCM)

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Originally Posted by TmEE

The DAC is not having any issues, tis the stuff that puts stuff into the DAC that does :P

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Yeah . . . and the only things that make the PCE "better" is the timer interrupts, well, that and the ability to exploit the sample buffers to reduce overhead (you need to use 2 channels, double buffered, to avoid the "pop" on older chip revisions though . . . or 4 channels if you want 10-bit resolution -or anything more than 5-bit). That's not direct D/A mode though, but an exploit of the "normal" wave synth mode.

Well, that, and there's no DMA contention issues to halt CPU access to ROM, but technically the MD could do that too if you purely used the 68000 for VRAM updates. :p (which could indeed be practical for some games without the need for huge bursts of animation updates, and more so for H32 since the CPU is just as fast there, but DMA is slower)
Of course, that only actually matters for games that have sound engines good enough to avoid all the other pitfalls.

As far as I know, audio wise, CD-ROM audio is mostly defined by uncompressed 44.1Khz Digital Audio. The SNES can only put out 32Khz last I checked, and the Genesis' YM2612 can output anywhere from 48Khz-100+Khz. In a completely apples to oranges SNES samples versus Genesis FM+PSG comparison the later is "more CDA-Like" or even better while the former is inferior technically. That said I think the highest quality sample "MOD player" for the Genesis maxes out at 22.5 Khz, though many are sub 10Khz and still sound "okay", unless I forgot one.

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

Yes the real, authentic samples that fuel the endless alpha egos of SNES fans.

Honestly I played a clarinet in high school, but otherwise I don't know much about audio. Audio is probably my weakest knowledge in video games. What are really the requirements for CD music?

does this qualify?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRyduAPorw0

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That's most likely chiptunes being done with PCM samples. CD Audio is just that, Audio that's streamed off the CD the same way a CD player works. Quality wise it has to 16-bit stereo PCM at 44100 Hz. I don't think there's really any SNES game that does that level of quality with Chiptunes. There may be some Saturn and PS1 games that do it at the chip tune level, but again it's doubtful.

Here's a good comparison:

CD Audio:



Chip Generated PCM (Saturn MIDI):



There's a distinct drop in clarity and crispness in the overall sound and instrument quality. Some instruments sound close (Winds, String Bass, etc.) where as others sound rather synthy (Most Strings, voices, drums, etc.). That's not to say it sounds bad, but it's certainly not CD quality.

There's also the synthesizer tracks in the first Panzer Dragoon, but those are still CD Quality, and they still sound a lot crisper and cleaner than any of Zwei's tunes:



Does that clear things up a bit? Simply put, even the best SNES games don't sound anywhere close to CD Audio in overall quality. They all suffer from the low muffled and muddy sound that's distinct to the SNES audio chip. The only time you will ever hear a CD sound like an SNES game is when that CD is the soundtrack of an SNES game.

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Originally Posted by sheath

As far as I know, audio wise, CD-ROM audio is mostly defined by uncompressed 44.1Khz Digital Audio. The SNES can only put out 32Khz last I checked, and the Genesis' YM2612 can output anywhere from 48Khz-100+Khz. In a completely apples to oranges SNES samples versus Genesis FM+PSG comparison the later is "more CDA-Like" or even better while the former is inferior technically. That said I think the highest quality sample "MOD player" for the Genesis maxes out at 22.5 Khz, though many are sub 10Khz and still sound "okay", unless I forgot one.

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I'm almost certain that Tiido has stated numerous times that the YM2612's max output is 56KHz. So I don't know where you got the 100+KHz from but I don't think that's correct. So while yes KHz wise that's above the Redbook Audio standard, it's doing that mostly with FM Synth and PSG, not PCM. I don't think there's any game out there that does any PCM samples near that quality. Even Tiido's wav player only does 26 KHz mono audio.

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

Honestly I played a clarinet in high school, but otherwise I don't know much about audio. Audio is probably my weakest knowledge in video games. What are really the requirements for CD music?

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Well, in marketing terms . . . and as was used to promote quite a few consoles/computers (and sound cards) in the early 90s, "CD quality" sound often just referred to 44.1 kHz 16-bit stereo output, or sometimes just 44.1 kHz stereo of lesser resolution.

In the strictest terms, the MD and PCE both pass that as the sample rates of their synthesizers are both beyond 44.1 kHz, thus CD recordings would actually lose some quality (technically) compared to the ideal raw output of those chips. (of course, low bitrate PCM samples on PCE or MD are another story)

In terms of actual aesthetic appraisal of "CD quality sound" is another story entirely, and totally subjective. :p

Oh, but on the technical note of 44 kHz PCM, the PCE is ahead of the SNES and MD there since neither can go that high. SNES's SPC unit uses 32 kHz output, but I seem to recall that actual sample playback was limited to 16 kHz (intrpolated up to 32 kHz), and the MD is limited to ~26 kHz before you start missing DAC writes (and it's 8-bit PCM).

The PCE has no such DAC speed limitations, and 44.1 kHz 10-bit stereo streaming PCM playback is quite possible . . . ADPCM decoding to that is also possible, but either case is going to use massive amounts of space. ;) (and ADPCM decoding at those rates is fairly CPU intensive too)
Doing MOD players at that sample rate should be somewhat possible too, but the overhead involved would make it unattractive for games. At more modest rates, doing that in games could be fairly realistic.

Actually the flexiblity of software PCM playback on the PCE is an isse I've argued for the PCE CD too, particularly that its ADPCM chip is rather unnecessary compared to potential for software PCM and ADPCM playback (expecially with most games using CD music, so samples for SFX mostly -or stereaming PCM for cutscenes). Using a unified 128 kB of RAM rather than 64k+64k would have been much more flexible and useful in general. (the actual quality of most ADPCM on the PCE CD is pretty mediocre too -so much that 4-bit PCM alone would often be competitive, plus you're stuck with 1 channel and no potential for software mixing)
A much better addition would have been some sort of DMA engine (or a primitive blitter) for faster VRAM updates added to the super CD, and less CPU time spent on that (more for sound and other stuff), that is id the VDP I/O ports are addressible through the expansion port. (I'm pretty sure the entire address space is exposed, so that should have been possible)


On a related note, here's a demo with mono ADPCM at 20 kHz and 33.5 kHz with 10-bit output on the PCE engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdWYOHPV6Uw



Oh, and if you're wondering how low quality MOD players could sound on the PCE just using basic 5-bit PCM output at 7 kHz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLhFbwS3tNc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvwQ0q6Xr54

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6_HvykkFKI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRl-A8uTkxE

Considering the lack of specific optimization of samples for that, and the low res and sample rate being used, that's not too bad.