Advantages of SNES hardware vs. Genesis hardware

Printable View

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

11-02-2013, 07:48 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Oh well? It doesn't mean what they said in a review are absolute facts.

Not but its all about PR Rep and image and in those days SEGA platform games has an image of being simpler and lacking depth to Nintendo titles - not always but enough for SEGA to take note and try and make Mega Drive games harder and add in more depth.

Quote:

Once again that was another situation

Yep and again it was a case of you asking me for proof .

Quote:

So good controls now make a game easy

Yep 1 main button and that's it every simple for everyone - that's why the Wii did so well , with its simple games and simple controller . Just look and Madden on something like a Mega Drive to playing it on the 360 . With Madden on the MD you could get a mate over and show him the basics and in a few min's start to have a decent game , on the 360 its a nightmare trying to explain what every button does and all the moves.

That was the beauty of something like Sonic you killed nothing (completely non violent game so right from the start great for kids) and simple spot on controls so kids could play it and love it . That was part of the games magic

Quote:

You're too fixated on that one point to see the big picture here.

NO I don't care at all for speed runs - you seem to do when trying to show which game is harder . All I will say is there's Speed Run on Deamon Souls being done in like an hour -when for most people that game will take days/weeks to finish (if they ever can) . It does not reflect the games difficulty, reliability or indeed quality.

You can finish Saturn SEGA Rally in min's , but you're going to tell that something like Virtua Racing on the Saturn is the better and the harder racer, because on a Speed Run it take longer to finish ?

Quote:

Not trying to change it, just bringing up more examples of how the 2D Marios in general are pretty

I got news for you most Platform games in 1985 and well the 80's were simple, more so if they were an Arcade port . I bet most people could pretty much breeze through Wonder Boy and Shinobi on their Master Systems - but that's missing the point of the time and the fact that they're Arcade ports.

Quote:

What about level design? Boss design? Enemy Design? Gameplay Design? Do all those mean nothing

Yep there do and for most Mario IV does that better than Sonic 1 or 2 . But that will always be subjective and up to the person playing the games . I've never been much of a fan of the 16 bit Sonic's at all - To me Quackshot, Ghost N Ghouls, Revenge Of Shinobi, Magical Flying Hat Turbo Adventure, World Of Illusion were better than any of the 16 Bit Sonic Mega Drive games, but they again I love Sonic Adv more than any 3D platform game - its always you get from a game , not what a review says or speed run shows .
11-03-2013, 09:10 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Not but its all about PR Rep and image and in those days SEGA platform games has an image of being simpler and lacking depth to Nintendo titles - not always but enough for SEGA to take note and try and make Mega Drive games harder and add in more depth.

I doubt Sega of Japan gave two shits what some silly Gaijin's had to say about their games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Yep and again it was a case of you asking me for proof .

I asked for proof because you were spouting nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Yep 1 main button and that's it every simple for everyone - that's why the Wii did so well , with its simple games and simple controller . Just look and Madden on something like a Mega Drive to playing it on the 360 . With Madden on the MD you could get a mate over and show him the basics and in a few min's start to have a decent game , on the 360 its a nightmare trying to explain what every button does and all the moves.

This argument is complete and utter nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

That was the beauty of something like Sonic you killed nothing (completely non violent game so right from the start great for kids) and simple spot on controls so kids could play it and love it . That was part of the games magic

A game can still have complex gameplay with simple controls. Sonic's controls may be simple, but mastering his pinball physics is not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

NO I don't care at all for speed runs - you seem to do when trying to show which game is harder . All I will say is there's Speed Run on Deamon Souls being done in like an hour -when for most people that game will take days/weeks to finish (if they ever can) . It does not reflect the games difficulty, reliability or indeed quality.

Again, I wasn't saying the speed run itself is waht made the game easy, it was the fact that the game allowed you to legitimately skip to the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

You can finish Saturn SEGA Rally in min's , but you're going to tell that something like Virtua Racing on the Saturn is the better and the harder racer, because on a Speed Run it take longer to finish ?

Better no, harder it would really depend. But again this is comparing apples to oranges. Neither of those games lets you take a shortcut to first place and win by skipping 90% of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I got news for you most Platform games in 1985 and well the 80's were simple, more so if they were an Arcade port . I bet most people could pretty much breeze through Wonder Boy and Shinobi on their Master Systems - but that's missing the point of the time and the fact that they're Arcade ports.

Not as fast as you can breeze through NES Mario.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Yep there do and for most Mario IV does that better than Sonic 1 or 2 . But that will always be subjective and up to the person playing the games . I've never been much of a fan of the 16 bit Sonic's at all - To me Quackshot, Ghost N Ghouls, Revenge Of Shinobi, Magical Flying Hat Turbo Adventure, World Of Illusion were better than any of the 16 Bit Sonic Mega Drive games, but they again I love Sonic Adv more than any 3D platform game - its always you get from a game , not what a review says or speed run shows .

Please explain how this level:

http://www.mariomayhem.com/downloads...27sIsland1.png

Is more complex than this level?:

http://www.soniczone0.com/games/soni...hz-act1map.png

Just about every boss in SMW is a complete push over as well. You will never encounter a boss in any of the SNES Mario's that's on par with difficulty to the harder bosses you encounter in Sonic 1, 2, and 3K.
11-04-2013, 08:15 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

I doubt Sega of Japan gave two shits what some silly Gaijin's had to say about their games

That's where you'll be wrong . Shinobi 3 was take back and made harder and had bonus stages put in after the review copy was knocked in the English press, for being too easy and too short . I think due to press talk Street Fighter 2 was taken back and had its graphics improved quite a bit . In key Markets games makers will take note now and again

Quote:

I asked for proof because you were spouting nonsense

That the Saturn didn't have Hardward support for 3D transparent effects - I think I was right mind you , you even took issue with Yuji Naka had to say :daze:

Quote:

A game can still have complex gameplay with simple controls

Yes any game will take time to master , but with just one button its far simpler to getting going and where anybody could play it.

Quote:

it was the fact that the game allowed you to legitimately skip to the end

Yeah and we all spend £60 on a game to skip through 90% of it , and that's overlooking that most gamers will never have the ability to do that . Speed runs are all about showing off a gamer skill imo.

Quote:

Not as fast as you can breeze through NES Mario

You can breeze through all those games - They were all very simple to play and finish But that would be missing the point

Quote:

Please explain how this level

Looking over how Mario IV had more levels it had the better replay vaule . What you little screen shot doesn't show it how in Mario you had the likes of Yellow, Red switches ect to open up new parts of the level(any of that in Sonic (bar a few break away walls) the various other secrets you also then had levels like Star Road which ups the difficulty quite a bit
11-04-2013, 11:14 AM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

That the Saturn didn't have Hardward support for 3D transparent effects - I think I was right mind you , you even took issue with Yuji Naka had to say :daze:

Except the Saturn does have hardware transparency. We've been over this many times with you. The issue with it is that it has errors when transparent pixels overlap. That' why it was rarely ever used in 3D games. Sonic R uses it for the light trails, you can see the errors where the polygons overlap.

Burning Rangers does true transparency as well, but it does it in a roundabout way to work around the errors VDP1 transparency does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Yes any game will take time to master , but with just one button its far simpler to getting going and where anybody could play it.

It may be easier to get going, but the pinball physics in Sonic I'd say are far more difficult to master than the run and jump mechanics of Super Mario World.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Yeah and we all spend £60 on a game to skip through 90% of it , and that's overlooking that most gamers will never have the ability to do that . Speed runs are all about showing off a gamer skill imo.

It doesn't take mad skills to take the warp zones in Mario, you just need to know where they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

You can breeze through all those games - They were all very simple to play and finish But that would be missing the point

Wonderboy and Shinobi on the Master System will probably take you about 15-25 minutes to breeze through, the NES Mario's you can breeze through in 5-10 minutes thanks to warp zones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Looking over how Mario IV had more levels it had the better replay vaule . What you little screen shot doesn't show it how in Mario you had the likes of Yellow, Red switches ect to open up new parts of the level(any of that in Sonic (bar a few break away walls) the various other secrets you also then had levels like Star Road which ups the difficulty quite a bit

Those switches are shown in those maps. They are maps of the entire level and show every hidden path and secret. It's quite clear that the Sonic level is far more complex and has more to explore.
11-04-2013, 12:29 PM
TmEE

My reaction to this whole thread :
http://i1.ujarani.com/3/1/arf56J.gif
11-04-2013, 02:16 PM
Black_Tiger

I'd love to see someone legitmately "breeze through" Wonderboy. :p
11-05-2013, 09:15 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

I'd love to see someone legitmately "breeze through" Wonderboy. :p

Me and my Brother did back in Christmas of 1987 - Ok were died quite a lot but it wasn't that hard of a game to finish. I wouldn't mind some expert game finished the game in a record time with out dyeing once and collecting all the bonuses and dolls.

Quote:

Except the Saturn does have hardware transparency

Not a 3D one .

Quote:

but the pinball physics in Sonic I'd say are far more difficult to master than the run and jump mechanics of Super Mario World

I don't know both require top class skills do right all the way through the game .

Quote:

It doesn't take mad skills to take the warp zones in Mario,

I seriously doubt that the average gamer back in 1991 was playing Mario IV at anywhere near the level of skill shown in your video . Most would have played the game , the way it was meant to be played and most wouldn't have finished it in a day , never mind less than 20 min's .

Quote:

the NES Mario's you can breeze through in 5-10 minutes thanks to warp zones.

Shinobi is easy to finish on the MS and there's little or no replay value its very simple > people could finish the likes of Alex Kid (Sega then answer to Mario) and Alex Kid in Shinobi world very easy too on their Master System , but to me they're still great games .

Quote:

Those switches are shown in those maps

With the new parts of the levels opened up ? . What about the secrets likes Donut Secret House .
11-05-2013, 11:17 AM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Not a 3D one .

The way the Saturn renders it's the same thing. The Transparency blending it has is only 50/50 blending and can be applied to both 2D and 3D. The problem with 3D is due to using Warped Quads. Basically when two pixels overlap you get errors as the Transparency effect get's applied twice to the same pixel. Some games still use this as the developers weren't worried about the issue. Sonic R is a perfect example. The light trails when you use a speed booster are using the hardware VDP1 transparency effect.

We have explained this to you numerous times TA. You need to stop taking the dumbed down PR talk in Magazines as absolute fact and start listening to what people who actually know about the hardware are telling you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I seriously doubt that the average gamer back in 1991 was playing Mario IV at anywhere near the level of skill shown in your video . Most would have played the game , the way it was meant to be played and most wouldn't have finished it in a day , never mind less than 20 min's .

We're not talking about what the average gamer was doing back in 1991. We're talking about which game is easier right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Shinobi is easy to finish on the MS and there's little or no replay value its very simple > people could finish the likes of Alex Kid (Sega then answer to Mario) and Alex Kid in Shinobi world very easy too on their Master System , but to me they're still great games .

That may be so, but they still take more time than the NES Mario games and are more challenging I'd say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

With the new parts of the levels opened up ? . What about the secrets likes Donut Secret House .

I believe so, it shows everything in the first level of the game.
11-05-2013, 03:28 PM
Stef

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Not a 3D one .

Haha, it's just incredible how you can face the true and said "No it is wrong !".
Did you read the VDP1 technical documentation ? It does support polygon (quad) transparency, maybe not as featured and fancy than the PSX one but it does has it (1/2 source + 1/2 destination mixing). It's rarely used indeed because of the overlapping rendering issue but it is here.
Well i guess i am just one other guy repeating the same thing that you will refute...
11-05-2013, 04:05 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Once again, just to make it clear:

http://evilboris.sonic-cult.net/SSF/...)/00000369.png

http://evilboris.sonic-cult.net/SSF/...)/00000369.png

That's VDP1 3D Transparency, errors and all.
11-05-2013, 05:46 PM
Yharnamresident

I always bring this up when I hear someone say the Saturn can't do transparency:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rpVal14xRU

Those clouds overhead the ship, those heavy clouds under the ship, they wouldn't look that nice if they were dithered.
11-05-2013, 07:02 PM
evildragon

One, that video sucks in quality. Two, it's dithered.

You can see other effects in this shot from the same game, being dithered.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/shTMXSlZue4/hqdefault.jpg
11-05-2013, 07:44 PM
Black_Tiger

Is anybody keeping count of how many times TA brings up the same transparency nonsense and is proven wrong by the same example(s) as last time?

TA: before you try to disqualify that screenshot again for being emulation, last time you tried I posted footage recorded from real actual hardware.
11-05-2013, 07:54 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

Is anybody keeping count of how many times TA brings up the same transparency nonsense and is proven wrong by the same example(s) as last time?

I think he's stuck in an infinite loop on the subject.
11-05-2013, 08:22 PM
Yharnamresident

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I think he's stuck in an infinite loop on the subject.

while (true) {
console.writeline("Saturn can't do transparency!!!");
}

Quote:

Originally Posted by evildragon

One, that video sucks in quality. Two, it's dithered.

You can see other effects in this shot from the same game, being dithered.

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/shTMXSlZue4/hqdefault.jpg

I will await further input.

Kool Kitty where are you!!

Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page