If you can make the hardware do something real time I say that is all fair.
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If you can make the hardware do something real time I say that is all fair.
Curse you, popular perception, for making me think that using add-on chips was easier on the SNES. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Chilly Willy
Not like it's been the first time I've been wrong on the internet. :cool:
I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was the design intent from the beginning for the SNES to use add-on chips on a regular basis to shore up the hareware's shortfalls. You'd think that Nintendo would have made it easier then their primary competition to utilize a feature that had been intended from the beginning.Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
Is there something about the SNES hardware that makes it, if not easier to use, at least more effective (like say better bandwidth between the cart and the main hardware, or something)?
It's the way the cart space are mapped to the 16bit PC address. Instead of getting the full 64k address range, only the upper 32k range is cart space is mapped into the bank while the lower range is fixed with some other areas mapped in (open bus areas for addon chip registers, among A bus and some other stuffs). Well, with the exception of a chunk of the upper banks which are full cart address (16bit range and full banks). It might not have any real advantages over the Genesis, but it was indeed designed to deal with addon chips on the cart in mind with a kind of standard interface (code always has access to addon chip ports in split bank mode). But it's not surprising considering the NES/Famicom used quite a bit of addon chips (albeit differently).Quote:
Originally Posted by Armoured Priest
Heneforth its attachments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly Willy
Sega CD/Mega CD(which is low quality System 24 based) used its own internal processor. The Binary read MD's CPU but provided backup for the Mega Drive by storing its own memory and RAM separate from Genesis.
Sega CD/Mega CD really did have a unique design that was compatible to MD. The CPU of Mega CD/Sega CD was exactly the same as Genesis. What gave it its unique build was that it added an Extra processor to the Genesis/MD. Both exactly the same, but transferred separate data. This is why it was System 24 based. System 24 was designed with 2 Motorola 6800 CPUs, but since MD already had the same processor. All Sega CD did was add an extra one.
This is the main point, 32X/Mars missed. It didn't use its own processor. Sega Amusements USA should have taken the hint from Away-27. If they wanted their own project, why didn't they ask Sega of Japan for advice?(I know Aurora/Jupiter and Saturn were developed top secret without Sega of America's knowledge but that's beside the point.)
Who knows, had Sega of America asked for advice and told SOJ about "Mars" we probably would have gotten System 32 with Model 1 graphics based "Sega Jupiter" worldwide in '94 while Japan got Saturn instead of that piece of trash 32X.
Really? What do the SH-2s in the 32X do then?
32X was finalized in Japan so SOJ definitely knew about it.
They learned about it in January 1994 the same time Sega of America learned of the other prototypes SOJ had been planning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Sega 32X was not licensed by Sega of Japan. SOJ paid for its budget, but left the marketing to Sega of America.
Sega of Japan originally planned on selling Sega Jupiter overseas as a stop gap console, since they had already scrapped plans for it to be Mega Drive's successor.
http://trademarks.justia.com/744/95/...-74495742.html
It was then, when they learned of 32X.
Sega had already decided that "Aurora" would become Saturn shortly after JAMMA 1993 after Model 1's poor performance. The first prototype for Saturn was cartridge based, the initial plan early on was to design a Model 2 based console, but they had focused too much on Jupiter because they thought that 3DO, PCFX,Jaguar and Nintendo Reality/Atlantis were their contenders, so by Fall 1993, they had to start over. SEGA couldn't find a Model 2 perfect modification so they hurridly threw together a bunch of low resolution,low quality Model 2 components to design Saturn.
http://trademarks.justia.com/744/69/...-74469937.html
Sega then threw out the cartridge design so it wouldn't look more low budget than 3DO.
The irony of course, was that by January, Sony officially entered the race with PS-X, surprising both SEGA and Nintendo. And forcing Nintendo to start completely over from scratch.
Use the processor of the Genesis. The chips inside the 32X aren't compatible with Genesis. And weren't properly designed to run their own data.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Why do you think the colors and sprites didn't seem or look different? And why was the sound quality so poor?
32X also suffered from serious manufacturing problems. Most units didn't function.
Do you even know what you're talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSega
... You serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSega
Documentation problem actually, here's what the sound was actually like:Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSega
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pINLsAPzzpU
Source?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSega
Fair enough I suppose, hard to resist feeding a troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSega
It's folk like MrSega that keep this forum going. He'll never replace ShadowHawk though...Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Did we not recently have an interview on this very site that confirmed that 32X was Sega of Japan's idea?Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSega
Yes and no. If I remember correctly the guy was one of the designers of Eternal Champions and not involved in management or hardware design.
I think what ALL sources share is the fact that Sega of Japan wanted or at least did not oppose an update to the Mega Drive / Genesis hardware.
And it seems that in all possible scenarios Saturn always was a separate piece of hardware - and no one at SOA nor SOJ seemed to have much of an issue with that.
Personally I always felt that SOA didn't really want Saturn while SOJ didn't really want 32X. And the compromise they came up with was to release both when the obvious thing to do would have been to make Saturn backwards compatible to MD/G - like SOJ did with ALL previous hardware.
It's the musician making the tracks who matters, not the publisher. Case in point, the theme track of Road Rash 2, which has a real hard rock feel - nice bass, heavy drums, and long guitar solos:Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXLiakijbxA
oh yeah, and it was done by Rob Hubbard, who rocked the C64 scene with some of its best tunes.
My fucking god, mrsega you don't know jack shit about electronics do you?
Sega was doing really bad knee jerk reactions back in the early 90s, which pretty much controlled all the hardware they released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
- The PC Engine has a next gen CD Accessory now! The Megadrive needs one, even though we have to hack the hardware to make it possible!
- Oh the SNES has better PCM sound and scaling effects? Let's put that in the Mega CD!
- Atari and Nintendo released a handheld? Quick, let's convert the Master System to handheld form!
- Shit, Nintendo put expansion chips in their carts! We need to do that too!
- The Megadrive is looking too aged now with all the Nintendo extra cart chips and 3DOs running around! It needs an upgrade or else we won't be bleeding edge anymore!
I want to know which team was responsible for the home console division because it was a huge clusterfuck where the head and both hands acted on their own. It culminated in the Saturn, which was the pinnacle of their sprite-based System 32 line, in home console form, released JUST when the switch to polygonal 3d graphics began (started by Sega themselves with their Model 1-2 line). And note that not just the 32x, but the SVP too was made AFTER the Saturn hardware...
And there's the whole well-known disagreement between SOA and SOJ. SOA was highly successful, SOJ was not, and they were envious, so they started telling SOA what to do. Which resulted in Sega losing the entire american market and later the entire console market.
See, I almost would agree with most of your observations but this is a load of BS.Quote:
Originally Posted by zyrobs
- Besides, I do not see the harm in MCD, Game Gear and SVP. For all we know the story behind the GG might as well have been "Let's do a portable SMS because the SMS is fucking awesome". Same for Mega CD: CDs definitely were something different if you consider the average MD game was 4Mbit right up until 1992. For Japan the MCD was the right choice at the right time. Let's not forget that this was 1990, not 1992 or 1993 like in Europe or the US.
No, not in this case. Publishers handed out custom dev kits to the developers, the sound driver of which pretty much dictated the actual sound. That is why all EA stuff sounds similar, regardless of who composed it. The same applies to Acclaim, Virgin and Sega of America. Their stuff sounds similar(ly bland and boring) because they were all using the same sound driver.Quote:
Originally Posted by zyrobs
Except that it's fully documented. SOJ started calling the shots, SOA was forced to play along. They did fuck up on their own without that, but if SOJ doesnt dick around they could've kept things like the Megadrive market strong for a much longer time (the only reason the SNES outsold the MD was because Sega dropped the ball way too early).Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Mega CD came out in 1991 december in Japan, just over a year after the SNES. One has to wonder how much the SNES influenced the Mega CD, given that they improved two of the three areas where the SNES outdid the MD the most notably.Quote:
- Besides, I do not see the harm in MCD, Game Gear and SVP. The story behind the GG might as well have been "Let's do a portable SMS because the SMS is awesome" for all we know. Same for Mega CD: For Japan the MCD was the right choice at the right time. Remember this was 1990, not 1992 like in the US or late 1993 like in Europe.
I also wonder if they created something entirely new, or if they worked with hardware they already had available from the arcade division.
Being forced to use a sound driver is one thing, trying to use that sound driver for the best effect is different. Technically it's not the musician who dictates the sound, but whoever is programming the tunes into the machine (though back then, they tended to be the same people) - they could just automatically convert tunes and pick the pre-tagged instruments, or search around creating custom instruments that better suit the tunes. Most companies just used pre-set instruments as they were named on the dev kits, without searching for more suitable ones or creating their own, which is why so many MD games sound alike.Quote:
No, not in this case. Publishers handed out custom dev kits to the developers, the sound driver of which pretty much dictated the actual sound. That is why all EA stuff sounds similar, regardless of who composed it. The same applies to Acclaim, Virgin and Sega of America. Their stuff sounds similar(ly bland and boring) because they were all using the same sound driver.
I'm going to disagree with you a little bit, Christuserloeser. I'm of the opinion that someone who is stellar at composition and arranging can make up somewhat for crappy sound drivers (and I feel the inverse is far less true, awesome drivers do not automatically equal awesome music). Though I'll certainly admit that it didn't happen often. Also, if given the choice, yeah, I'd rather have good drives and well built/sample instrument patches. Just so we're clear on that. ;)
As an example, I feel that compositionally Super Hydlide has awesome music, but some of the actual instrument patches really kind of suck. Same goes for a lot of Virgin games stuff. I think Tallarico is a pretty good composer, and his Genesis stuff was pretty good (again, yeah it would have been better if Virgin had used something other then GEMS). I feel the same way about Final Fight 2 on the SNES. There are some really cool tunes except that Capcom used some terrible samples (some of which sound out of tune because of how small the samples are). I take those same tracks and run them through with my high-end instrument patches and they're rockin tunes.
To be fair, I personally have a tendency to be more interested in composition work rather then the technical work of making instrument patches and samples and making them sound good. Its why I buy pre-made sample packs for the music I write rather then make them from scratch myself.
It is not. Hayao Nakayama was rather pissed at their meetings, asking the staff why they couldn't be as successful as the American or European daughter companies. Tom Kalinske said SoJ told him what to do, he was powerless at the end. And everybody knows it was SoJ who pulled the plug on the Mega Drive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
I agree that even with the worst sound driver you can still do awesome music. And I enjoyed that Road Rash 2 track btw.
Tallarico is an interesting example btw. He exclusively used GEMS but his own work is much better than Aladdin. Aladdin clearly has the technically better compositions but it is ruined by its bland sound.
His own compositions sound so much better because he creatively "abused" the PCM channel to add some rather unique sounds to what otherwise would sound like run of the mill GEMS.
The only thing that is documented indeed is the sudden death of the 16-bit market in 1995. The other stuff is rumors and hogwash.Quote:
Originally Posted by zyrobs
SOA's CEO of the 1992-1995 era, Kalinske, stated at least thrice that he was in charge at SOA and that Japan did not interfere until late 1995, after the 32X/Saturn debacle. He quoted Nakayama saying in 1991 "We hired you to make those decisions, so do whatever the fuck you want" (well, something like that).
The reason the SNES did comparatively well late in its life was because Nintendo still released decent software for it. And not only Nintendo: The console was extremely successful in Japan right from the start so new Japanese software sustained the US and EU markets well into 1996.
Nintendo didn't release any other hardware they had to support with money and software. So they focused on SNES. And even more importantly: Nintendo did not have a 32X. They had the Virtual Boy but it was seen as a handheld, and an experimental one at that. No one considered it a real Next Gen system. No one took it even remotely seriously. And Nintendo was wise enough to stop it right after release. It is in no way comparable to what the 32X did to Sega's reputation.
And still, the 16-bit market collapsed over night. No one saw it coming. Nintendo simply did a much better job staying afloat in a time of drought. Sega of America had wasted everything they had (and then some) on their failed attempts at establishing Sega CD, 32X, Saturn, and Nomad in North America (and Europe).
After Katz got fired, Kalinske just so happened to be at the right place at the right time. He basically won the lottery in 1992 and did not know why and how and what he should do to stay in the game. So he threw money at everything there was (see Activator, Sega VR, Digital Pictures, Sega Multimedia Studios, Sega Midwest) right up until the 16-bit market collapsed and SOA had not one single dime left. When Kalinske left, SOA literally was back to where they were prior the Genesis launch. Only this time their reputation was damaged beyond repair.
EDIT:
It is. =PQuote:
Originally Posted by Zebbe
Seriously, Genny was discontinued in what? 1998? As for Kalinske being a puppet to Nakayama: see above / interviews - and I want to know who attended those meetings where Nakayama was "furious"?, and even then, who cares if he was furious? I am furious too! =P Doesn't proof anything.
While it's true the SH2 isn't compatible with the 68000, that's not an issue. The tools for the SuperH family were just as good as the ones for the M68K family. As for the statement "And weren't properly designed to run their own data," that's a load of nonsense. That doesn't even make sense from any point of view. In any case, the reality is the SH2 starts itself from an internal boot rom once the 32X is turned on, verifies the cart, loads the data, and then waits for synchronization with the Genesis. It can run code from SDRAM or ROM without a problem. It only relies on the Genesis for input ports, and video sync signals (it doesn't use its own sync so that it keeps in sync with the Genesis video). SEGA could have EASILY made a small base for the 32X that provided input ports and video syncg signals, making the 32X a true stand alone console. It just made more sense from a business standpoint to make it rely on plugging into the Genesis.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSega
The colors being "different" are due to a higher color palette and a different video encoder... which are both GOOD things, not a design flaw! And sound quality wasn't poor, it's just that many games used heavy compression to fit more sound into a smaller rom. I think my own 32X proggies have demonstrated that the 32X has excellent sound.Quote:
Why do you think the colors and sprites didn't seem or look different? And why was the sound quality so poor?
Actually, most unit still work today. The only "big" issue ever found is that some units need to have the ribbon cables unplugged and reseated. If that is the extent of "repair" needed, I wish EVERY console was just as "badly" manufactured!! :DQuote:
32X also suffered from serious manufacturing problems. Most units didn't function.
I couldn't agree more with you on this one man.
I'm still scratching my head over why 32x carts had such teeny roms. Is there a limit on how big a 32x maskrom can be?Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
Speaking of Electric Guitars, Rob Hubbard and EA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sit8ekGaBmM
Might be. The address space is shared isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakon
Cost is the only factor. You can have 1GByte ROMs if you could afford them.
But with a mapper I assume.
mapper is irrelevant
This entire thread is irrelevant. SNES doesn't have blast processing. :chewie:Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
At the time, 4MB carts were pretty scarse. Most were 3MB. It was the cost more than anything else. When the N64 came out, 8MB was the biggest you saw for quite a while, and there were a bunch of 4MB carts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drakon
The "standard" MegaDrive mapper (used on dev carts) could be used on the 32X, which allows up to 32MByte carts. That mapper uses 8 banks of 1/2 MB each, with bank numbers from 0 to 63.
Recent experiments on the 32X cart port seem to indicate that a 32X without a CD attached could directly access up to 8MB of rom without a mapper. That's the same as what the MD can access without a CD and without special hardware. With special hardware, a MD without CD and without the 32X can access 10MB or rom without a mapper.
For compatibility's sake though, isn't it better to just implement a mapper?
Yes, which is why I made mention of mappers in the first place.
Uhm megabit or megabyte? Snes had like 32 mbit games. I love how chilly willy is pushing all this untapped hardware like the 32x.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chilly Willy
32Mbits are 4MBytes. 24Mbits are 3Mbytes. The abbreviation MB is always for Megabytes, but for clarity sake I spell it out rather than saying Mb and MB and confusing everybody not in the know.
He's using MB not Mb
Since when is anyone who tries to speculate a troll?Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
Speculating doesn't make you a troll. But your claims sure do.
Exactly. Anytime someone uses mb, I always exclaim about how great it is that such a program could be possible in millibits of memory. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
When there's some doubt in the thread, I'll go ahead and write MBytes instead of MB, but I think we're all on the same track here.
I never grew up hearing the term MBytes be used, so to me that's just not proper. It may be proper but to me it's not. I'm used to seeing MB and Mb. But I also work only in MB, I hate seeing Mb used.
Mb should be for speed only. Mbps.
Jupiter was the Saturn minus the CD-Rom was it was planned to be a stop gab at all and it was planed to go on sale in Japan tooQuote:
Sega of Japan originally planned on selling Sega Jupiter overseas as a stop gap console
Mars project was around in 1993 and even the press knew and reported on it .Quote:
They learned about it in January 1994 the same time Sega of America learned of the other prototypes SOJ had been planning.
It would have been easier to put a more capable sound chip inside the machine at the end of the day.Quote:
Or maybe, just maybe, if they had instead... I don't know... hired an actual musician (maybe even Tim Follin himself) to do the Mega Drive versions music, maybe, just maybe, it wouldn't be a cheap midi-fm conversion which sounds like utter garbage
The internet and the huge howbrew community that's built up . You used you like your modding consoles didn't you ? You got any issues or need help all you got to do is ask on-line and I'm sure people will help you . That sort of help just wasn't there in the early 1990'sQuote:
TA, how do you think that huge community came about?
Not it all cases , but in most granted and if those developers had trouble with the MD soundchip then you know it's a hardware issue . Answer me this if the MD chip was so good , why the need for a extra sound chip in the Mega CD, extra channels in Virtual Racing on the MD or the extra channels in the 32X . It was quite clear than the MD had issues when playing multiple channels of sample sound.Quote:
Those developers at least had development kits, official documentation, official tools, and all the time they needed to figure it out.
TA actually owns and play the games - An alien concept to some I know, but some of us still own and play Mega Drive games, never mind SaturnQuote:
The only facts TA believes are what his vintage 90's gaming magazines tell him
I care enough to own games the question , That's the differenceQuote:
He doesn't care what the OP wants. TA cares about only what's going through his trolling
That's sort of true but then all corps react when something becomes successful (just how SONY and MS tried to jump on the motion bandwagon) and to be fair the Mega CD came out in 1991 some 4 years after NEC CD-Rom2 I think all corps were looking at the CD-Rom to be fair. Nintendo were putting chips into their NES games and SEGA didn't react - I think the job of trying to port a start of the Art Model 1 coin up forced SEGA to add in some extra HardwareQuote:
Sega was doing really bad knee jerk reactions back in the early 90s, which pretty much controlled all the hardware they released.
- The PC Engine has a next gen CD Accessory now! The Megadrive needs one, even though we have to hack the hardware to make it possible!
- Oh the SNES has better PCM sound and scaling effects? Let's put that in the Mega CD!
- Atari and Nintendo released a handheld? Quick, let's convert the Master System to handheld form!
- Shit, Nintendo put expansion chips in their carts! We need to do that too!
- The Megadrive is looking too aged now with all the Nintendo extra cart chips and 3DOs running around! It needs an upgrade or else we won't be bleeding edge anymore
EA did some great music and sound effects on the MD. The music and effects in Star Flight are class and the title music and speech in John Madden is to this day sheer classQuote:
I wouldn't put anything EA up for music awards on the Genesis