Advantages of SNES hardware vs. Genesis hardware

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10-31-2012, 10:58 AM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I'm sorry you and others started to bring the X68000 into this , even posted videos too.

I didn't bring the X68000 into this. It was brought in as an example of high level top of the line hardware using a sound set up almost identical to the Genesis hardware. It was brought in as an example to show you the fact that premium gaming hardware was still using FM synthesis in the late 80's and early 90's. It wasn't brought in to be compared to the Genesis or SNES. The only system it was compared to was the Amiga because you fell for Barones joke and made that initial comparison.

As for The Art of Fighting, I actually like the Genesis versions music. It has a beat to it and actual bass, where the SNES version again sounds like it was recorded in the shower stall of a large bathroom.
10-31-2012, 11:52 AM
Kamahl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

And you need to remember SEGA Japan made the MD version in house and yet it still sounded worse than the Snes version . That to me (trying to get back on Topic) is why it would have been better if the MD had a more capable sound chip

TA, nobody is arguing that. We agree.

We disagree when you say that "it can't do good multi-channel PCM". That's false. "Hard" and "Impossible" are not the same thing.

We also disagree when you claim FM is bad and that Sega was being outdated by using it. The X68000 (this is why it was brought up) used FM, and it was top of the line hardware just 1 year before the genesis.

Do you get it now? Must I make a drawing before you stop arguing some parallel universe version of this thread?
10-31-2012, 12:49 PM
evildragon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamahl

Must I make a drawing before you stop arguing some parallel universe version of this thread?

Oh please do this. I'll rep you for it if you do.
10-31-2012, 12:53 PM
Kamahl

Quote:

Originally Posted by evildragon

Oh please do this. I'll rep you for it if you do.

Unfortunately I don't have a usable drawing application at work (the gimp isn't a usable piece of software for anything).
I might do it later when I'm at home :p.
10-31-2012, 01:06 PM
evildragon

When I get out of work or am on break, if I see it, I'll rep it, lol.
10-31-2012, 01:14 PM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

I didn't bring the X68000 into this. It was brought in as an example of high level top of the line hardware using a sound set up almost identical to the Genesis hardware.

You brought it up not me, and I have no real issue with FM music per say . The issue I have is the MD problem with lack of channels for digital samples , like with Colour pallet it was a issue with the MD.

Quote:

The only system it was compared to was the Amiga because you fell for Barones joke and made that initial comparison.

Oh please, You talked enough about it and even posted You Tube videos comparing to the Snes, yet didn't like it when one compared it to the Mega Drive .

Quote:

We disagree when you say that "it can't do good multi-channel PCM". That's false

I'll ask again show me the game that did simultaneous samples well to the Snes or Amiga standard or Higher , and when I say game I mean a retail game . This is an area the MD came out 2nd best, more so on a game like SF II where you have to separation of the speech depending on if the character was on the left or right hand side of the screen . I have something like a 150 to 180 Mega Drive games I've ever heard the MD do simultaneous samples to the Snes standard
10-31-2012, 01:15 PM
evildragon

:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
10-31-2012, 01:21 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

You brought it up not me, and I have no real issue with FM music per say . The issue I have is the MD problem with lack of channels for digital samples , like with Colour pallet it was a issue with the MD.

Oh please, You talked enough about it and even posted You Tube videos comparing to the Snes, yet didn't like it when one compared it to the Mega Drive .

I didn't compare it to the SNES. I compared it to the Amiga after you said you thought the Amiga was a better system. And I didn't bring it up either. Kamahl did to illustrate a point to you that you have completely missed. I merely replied to a comment you made about the Amiga being better than the X68000, well after it had already been brought up.
10-31-2012, 01:54 PM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

I didn't compare it to the SNES. I compared it to the Amiga after you said you thought the Amiga was a better system. And I didn't bring it up either. Kamahl did to illustrate a point to you that you have completely missed. I merely replied to a comment you made about the Amiga being better than the X68000, well after it had already been brought up.

I think we did and btw I said at a guess I would imagine the Amiga to be the better games machine simply because it had loads of AAA games , but like I made out I've never owned the Sharp
10-31-2012, 02:00 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

Well I know I didn't compare it to the SNES. And looking back I don't see anyone else making that comparison. The only two people trying to compare it to consoles like the SNES and Genesis are you and TheNewGuy.
10-31-2012, 02:15 PM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Well I know I didn't compare it to the SNES. And looking back I don't see anyone else making that comparison. The only two people trying to compare it to consoles like the SNES and Genesis are you and TheNewGuy.

Sorry I meant the Amiga not the Snes and please don't make out you didn't post videos comparing the Amgia to the Sharp 68000
10-31-2012, 02:20 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

I'm not saying I didn't post videos comparing the Amiga to the X68000.
10-31-2012, 02:28 PM
evildragon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Sorry I meant the Amiga not the Snes and please don't make out you didn't post videos comparing the Amgia to the Sharp 68000

Dude what the fuck, he didn't say that. He said he didn't compare it to the SNES, and then you basically read it as Amiga and Sharp.

Are you a dumbfuck who was dropped on their head? Well then again, your european, so probably.
10-31-2012, 02:38 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

While I agree that TA is rather stupid in these debates, it's not fair to generalize all Europeans that way. There are tons of amazing Europeans on this very forum after all.
10-31-2012, 03:06 PM
evildragon

He generalized me being American. Gets what he deserved.

And no I don't really generalize all Europeans. He just pissed me off because he's done it.
10-31-2012, 04:32 PM
Kamahl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I'll ask again show me the game that did simultaneous samples well to the Snes or Amiga standard or Higher

... Why would there be any example of a game reaching SNES or Amiga PCM quality, when those 2 systems have dedicated PCM chips?
The Genesis is an FM machine that can (normaly) do 1 good quality PCM channel. That's the same as top of the line hardware the year before (X68000). Of course the genesis doesn't have nearly as many FM channels, and the PCM isn't nearly as good, but it also has the PSG from the master system, and it can do something the X68000 can't....

*drum roll*

Software driven multi-channel PCM.

Not easily, that much is a given, and something everyone agrees on. But it can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajx_p__Wd90

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

I've ever heard the MD do simultaneous samples to the Snes standard

*slap*
10-31-2012, 04:54 PM
TrekkiesUnite118

That doesn't count! Clearly Toy Story for the Genesis was compiled on the same SGI workstations Pixar used to animate the movie thus making the code super powered. This wouldn't have been possible had the games code been compiled on the Amigas other developers like Probe were using. Therefore it's not fair because it's cheating!
10-31-2012, 05:10 PM
Stef

In the case of Toy Story it is even more than simple multi PCM, it is a true MOD player :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fslIv...ailpage#t=493s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRXlr...ailpage#t=224s
10-31-2012, 11:46 PM
tomaitheous

The MOD player in Toy Story is was damn great discovery, but I hate to rain on your guy's parade. It's not in game, it's just the title screen with nothing else happening(even an 8bit 1.79mhz computer with a single DAC can do it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49uB068i3ZU ). It's eating a crap load of main cpu resource. That's not impressive per se. That is to say, it's not like it's doing that in game. TmEE had a player that can mix 4 channels (albeit no frequency resampling like Toy Story MOD player) with IS compatible with regular game engine. I also don't put that Toy Story example on the same league as the Amiga or SNES. Not that I'm agreeing with TA, but the Genesis did have this rep of having poor voice sample playback through out its life (even with the few examples that sounded good like Altered Beast).

That said, while the Genesis did have some complicated methods for going about of playing samples (with a running game engine) compared to more straight forward design methods (interrupt driven, or DMAs, or self feeding DACs, etc). Hell, even the NES had a self feeding DAC (albeit 1bit delta mode, but still and that was back in 1983. High enough sample rate, it sounded pretty damn decent and had up to 16 different frequency playback rates). But at any time, Sega could have EASILY just included a self feeding DAC or buffer feed DAC on the cartridges themselves, since the stereo audio lines for mixing are directly on the cart port. That just goes to show (IMO) Sega didn't really see it as a real problem.

One other thing that no one has seemed to bring up is VDMA. Sure, you can have the z80 use 100% cpu resource to playback samples (up to 4 channels mixed @ 16khz IIRC. Definitely easily with poor code for 8khz playback). But when you call VDMA and the z80 is accessing ROM, the Z80 is halted which adds artifacts in the playback sound. So you choose good sample playback and do not use VDMA (when means using slower cpu method to update vram/vdp) which might be fine for some game engines, or you figure out how to buffer the samples in z80 ram and have it playback from that during vblank in order not to get stalled by vDMA (in theory it should be possible, but I haven't seen a player that does this yet).

And finally, what are you guys even arguing now? Sample sound FX? Voices? Sampled music? You guys are going all over the place. Arguing with TA will do nothing but get you side tracked because he refuses to back down and brings in counter arguments that don't address the original points - but distracts from it. He's always arguing around the point - every time. It's damn annoying, but I learned my lessen with his stupid MegaCD VS everything else arcade thread. As soon as he starts with the 'American upstart' (for whatever that means), you know it's time to ignore him 'cause that's when the conversation is just about to go down hill. I don't even bother now. Just ignore him.
11-01-2012, 12:03 AM
sheath

I suggest an addendum to Godwin's law that includes whatever Tomaitheous just described in his last paragraph.
11-01-2012, 01:09 AM
TrekkiesUnite118

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

And finally, what are you guys even arguing now? Sample sound FX? Voices? Sampled music? You guys are going all over the place. Arguing with TA will do nothing but get you side tracked because he refuses to back down and brings in counter arguments that don't address the original points - but distracts from it. He's always arguing around the point - every time. It's damn annoying, but I learned my lessen with his stupid MegaCD VS everything else arcade thread. As soon as he starts with the 'American upstart' (for whatever that means), you know it's time to ignore him 'cause that's when the conversation is just about to go down hill. I don't even bother now. Just ignore him.

The original comment that we replied to was him saying that the Genesis couldn't play 2 simultaneous PCM samples with good results. Which there are even retail games that like Alien Soldier.
11-01-2012, 08:15 AM
Stef

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

The MOD player in Toy Story is was damn great discovery, but I hate to rain on your guy's parade. It's not in game, it's just the title screen with nothing else happening(even an 8bit 1.79mhz computer with a single DAC can do it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49uB068i3ZU ). It's eating a crap load of main cpu resource. That's not impressive per se. That is to say, it's not like it's doing that in game. TmEE had a player that can mix 4 channels (albeit no frequency resampling like Toy Story MOD player) with IS compatible with regular game engine. I also don't put that Toy Story example on the same league as the Amiga or SNES. Not that I'm agreeing with TA, but the Genesis did have this rep of having poor voice sample playback through out its life (even with the few examples that sounded good like Altered Beast). .

Having 4 PCM play without resampling is not a big deal on the Z80, SGDK even include a 4 PCM driver with envelop support.
The deal is the resampling, you said doing a MOD player is possible on a simple 8 bits 1.8 Mhz CPU, i really doubt we can see that on the genesis Z80... because of that stupid bank register. You can always buffer your samples so the bank register is not anymore a problem but then resampling becomes a big one.

Quote:

One other thing that no one has seemed to bring up is VDMA. Sure, you can have the z80 use 100% cpu resource to playback samples (up to 4 channels mixed @ 16khz IIRC. Definitely easily with poor code for 8khz playback). But when you call VDMA and the z80 is accessing ROM, the Z80 is halted which adds artifacts in the playback sound. So you choose good sample playback and do not use VDMA (when means using slower cpu method to update vram/vdp) which might be fine for some game engines, or you figure out how to buffer the samples in z80 ram and have it playback from that during vblank in order not to get stalled by vDMA (in theory it should be possible, but I haven't seen a player that does this yet).

Indeed the VDMA is the only responsible of the poor quality in genesis games. The problem is that Sega probably did not gave any advices about that problem in their SDK. Honestly you can easily avoid DMA in 90% of the game, the CPU is fast enough to feed the VRAM.
I don't see how you can avoid the VDMA problem from the Z80 ? 4 PCM drivers already buffer samples then mix them together and output to the DAC, the problem is that at one moment you will need to fetch (and buffer) the next sample, and you cannot choose when to do it and so you won't avoid VDMA if it happen at same time. One of the solution would be to align the buffer size to one frame and so the buffering always happen at the same period of the frame but that would require tricky timing !
11-01-2012, 08:56 PM
Drakon

Wait...you don't like him generalizing americans so you think by generalizing europeans you're setting some sort of super great example? If you don't like something then wouldn't it be better if you don't do it? No matter how much he's annoying you?

I think if he annoys you enough to make you do something you dislike then he's won. Try not to let TA get to you so much, stooping to his level is like admitting defeat.

I agree with tomaitheous, you guys are adding fuel to the fire, although it is kinda entertaining to watch people get so passionate about correcting somebody.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evildragon

He generalized me being American. Gets what he deserved.
11-02-2012, 01:30 AM
evildragon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakon

Wait...you don't like him generalizing americans so you think by generalizing europeans you're setting some sort of super great example?

You know what, you're right. I'm sorry to all europeans--except TA.

I love it though how the mods felt the report for the personal attack he originally did was OK to keep and not remove.
11-04-2012, 07:46 AM
Team Andromeda

Quote:

Not easily, that much is a given, and something everyone agrees on. But it can

What part of not doing it well do you not understand ? . No-one is making out that the MD couldn't do samples it just couldn't do simultaneous samples well to the standards of a Amiga or Snes game .

Quote:

He generalized me being American

You're a typical partisan American - You're either with us or against us and it makes me laugh . Anyone finding any fault with the Mega Drive and liking a rival system more it must then follow that they hate the Mega Drive and hate SEGA; Totally and utterly pathetic logic

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but I learned my lessen with his stupid MegaCD VS everything else arcade thread. As soon as he starts with the 'American upstart' (for whatever that means)

You're the one that liked to make out than the Mega CD Batman & Returns/Cliffhanger didn't do rotation in Hardware. I simply pointed out otherwise . I do love getting lectures from people who think they can do a little bit of code , they know it all and anyone that dares to question them is wrong. Mind you you should be dammed for life for making out the Neo Geo is better than the Mega Drive , when people here will make out otherwise and the Mega Drive can do it all
11-04-2012, 10:54 AM
Kamahl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

No-one is making out that the MD couldn't do samples it just couldn't do simultaneous samples well to the standards of a Amiga or Snes game.

Don't make me go back and search through this thread for all the times you did just that. Otherwise no one would be arguing with you.
There's a big difference between "good quality" and "Amiga/SNES quality". Those 2 have dedicated chips for PCM. I for one think the PCM quality in genesis UMK3 is awesome. A bit grainy sure but that just makes it sound more badass.
11-04-2012, 11:04 AM
evildragon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

You're a typical partisan Americanre

And you're just stinky Euro trash. To back to your techno.
11-04-2012, 12:11 PM
Barone

To toss money is a better investment than arguing with TA and some other fellas in this forum.
Let's move on, guys! ;)
11-04-2012, 02:30 PM
Thenewguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barone

To toss money is a better investment than arguing with TA and some other fellas in this forum.

Yeah, some people on this forum actually butt into conversations stemming from someone saying they're not interest in arcade ports...with lists of arcade ports!

Others will reply to a quote clearly grouping together levels of their personal opinion of quality with a criticism of "preference for quantity over quality" in a pathetic attempt at lazy character assassination instead of stating "I disagree with you that Lionheart is on par with Castlevania" or "I think the Amiga port of Mega Turrican sucks ass, no way does it compare to Aquales" or "I think Chaos Engine/Soldiers of Fortune is significantly worse than Arcus Odyssey" ect ect.

Still others will completely make up supposed faux par's concerning Mega Drive's Newzealand Story port.

:lol:
11-04-2012, 02:35 PM
Kamahl

Lionheart sucks Thenewguy, go back to your 12fps adventure games!
11-04-2012, 04:11 PM
Thenewguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamahl

Lionheart sucks Thenewguy, go back to your 12fps adventure games!

Are you using 2-button controls? makes it a lot easier

Either way I don't agree with you at all, Lionheart is a much more interesting and unique game as far as I'm concerned, Castlevania X68 is good an everything, but the gameplay is a little overplayed at this stage, and doesn't stand up in comparison to Rondo of Blood, or SCIV both of which did the same thing, only better, I think the X68 sprite looks a little weedy, and I dislike the fact that you can't jump onto stairs (that omission makes me more think of NES Castlevania's), the levels which are remakes of the NES game's stages also don't sit well with me, and the game is waay too easy (most of the way through on my first go). the presentation is sometimes very nice though (the crying statue springs to mind), and the music was pretty awesome. Lionheart has unique atmosphere. Music and graphics are memorable, level layouts are intricate and well done, I like the fact that I can hop n' bop enemies easily, as well as swipe at those above and below, and I like the methodical tactics required (such as when fighting the large spiders, hit the bug on the ground retreat and then reverse swipe the head). Bad points are the fact that pressing fire doesn't swipe (you have to push forwards + fire), and the main sprite looks like He-Man.

Personally the more I think about it the more I think this is a very, very apt comparison, the two games have smallish sprites and detailed artwork, methodical gameplay, and multi-directional melee attacks for instance. Against Rondo, or SCIV I think Lionheart would stumble, but CX68 is ~ the right ballpark in my opinion.

Do you prefer Flink to Lionheart? or dislike both of them? I would say I prefer Lionheart in the comparison, mainly because of the more constant movement speed but I think the level layouts may be slightly better too.

BTW you were wrong about Soccer Kid, it supports a controller button to bring the ball back, you just need to muck about with setting the buttons to CD32 joypad for some reason (not sure why, I think it might be an emulator issue to be honest, Lionheart, & BC Kid were the same way, glitching otherwise).
11-04-2012, 04:33 PM
Kamahl

Oh come on Thenewguy, I'm just trolling you.

Still, I'm not a fan of Lionheart at all. I hate the controls and that slow, puny sword, the main character looks abysmal, music is unmemorable, that "TINNNGGGG" sound effect makes me want to gouge my ear lobes out, the front plane looks monochromatic and the back plane like a bad gradient photoshop effect. Kudos for having parallax scrolling for once on the Amiga, jesus. The gameplay is also as monotonous as it gets with boring enemies (some do need strategy, but that's mainly because of how lame the character controls), the second worst excuse for a "shooter stage" I've seen and that "fire sword" powerup was the lamest powerup I think there ever was. I'd rather get the downgrade skull in wings of death than that piece of lame shit, at least that one has a noticeable contribution to gameplay (making it harder). Level design is average or even above average in some cases I suppose, but nothing great. X68k CV humiliates it easily, and X68k CV is essentially a great looking and sounding NES game.

Eurotrash all the way. They improved massively with Flink (which I like quite a bit, shame it didn't get an OCS version), and even more so with Lomax.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thenewguy

BTW you were wrong about Soccer Kid, it supports a controller button to bring the ball back, you just need to muck about with setting the buttons to CD32 joypad for some reason (not sure why, I think it might be an emulator issue to be honest, Lionheart, & BC Kid were the same way, glitching otherwise).

WinUAE seems to have massive problems with 2 button controllers yeah.
11-04-2012, 04:57 PM
Thenewguy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamahl

The gameplay is also as monotonous as it gets with boring enemies (some do need strategy, but that's mainly because of how lame the character controls), the second worst excuse for a "shooter stage"

I don't see it. At all. The levels are filled with secret areas, the platforming is well done (similar to Castlevania with its many different elements, such as flipping platforms, moving platforms, swinging platforms on chains, and floating enemies that can knock you off if you're not careful, as well as multi-directional melee attacking), there are also slopes you slide down which can be tricky, loads of verticality in the large, explorable levels, clever boss fights, variety (dinosaur riding against a airship), some set-pieces etc, all very, very well done, even by MD standards this game is at least an 8/10 as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamahl

Eurotrash all the way.

I'm starting to think you might be one of those Weeaboo's I keep hearing about, I'm really feeling right now that if they just lazily dumped a generic Japanese mech into these games just like the ones you brought up earlier on X68 you'd see it as a big improvement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamahl

They improved massively with Flink (which I like quite a bit, shame it didn't get an OCS version), and even more so with Lomax.

Personally I think Flink is probably the weakest, but only by a little (I like all three of these games), it feels a little less polished than Lionheart overall, though Lomax probably should've been better than it was, being released a generation after the other two.
11-04-2012, 05:04 PM
tomaitheous

Quote:

You're the one that liked to make out than the Mega CD Batman & Returns/Cliffhanger didn't do rotation in Hardware. I simply pointed out otherwise.

Actually, it went nothing like that at all.

Quote:

I do love getting lectures from people who think they can do a little bit of code , they know it all and anyone that dares to question them is wrong.

It follows to logic that anyone that's coded for these old consoles has at least SOME idea of how these things work, VS someone has NEVER coded and can only recite magazine clippings of interviews and such (just looking at a set of games). There a big difference in the gap of knowledge between just a gamer and person with relative experience. That doesn't mean the person who has more related experience and understand is always right, but if you don't even have such a level of experience - how can you qualify any counter arguments or such? That fact is, you can't. But you do this anyway. I don't know if it's jealousy or just mistrust, or what. It's like trying to qualify a statement on the observation of an car accident without the background knowledge in physics VS someone who does have such a back ground. At some point you need to concede that you don't have enough knowledge or experience to make any sort of accurate assumption or resolution.
11-04-2012, 05:09 PM
Kamahl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thenewguy

I'm starting to think you might be one of those Weeaboo's I keep hearing about, I'm really feeling right now that if they just lazily dumped a generic Japanese mech into these games just like the ones you brought up earlier on X68 you'd see it as a big improvement.

Nah, I love The Chaos Engine (despite it being a 16 color piece of crap) and Virocop (despite... oh wait Virocop is awesome). They're as euro as it gets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thenewguy

Personally I think Flink is probably the weakest, but only by a little (I like all three of these games), it feels a little less polished than Lionheart overall, but Lomax probably should've been better than it was, being released a generation after the other two.

I enjoy playing Flink much more than Lionheart. The Magical Quest style of enemy killing is always cool, the whole spell making mechanic was underused but it's also pretty cool, it has less exploration but the gameplay also feels a lot more focused because of it. Trying to kill the item carrying enemies is always cool, as is grabbing the flying machines. The whole healthbar=magic=spirits mechanic is pretty interesting, and the bosses are as awesome as they get (besides the gorilla). The game oozes charm.
The only "positive thing" I remember from Lionheart is the dinosaur part, which looks awesome, and plays like shit.
11-04-2012, 05:16 PM
Barone

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thenewguy

Yeah, some people on this forum actually butt into conversations stemming from someone saying they're not interest in arcade ports...with lists of arcade ports!

Others will reply to a quote clearly grouping together levels of their personal opinion of quality with a criticism of "preference for quantity over quality" in a pathetic attempt at lazy character assassination instead of stating "I disagree with you that Lionheart is on par with Castlevania" or "I think the Amiga port of Mega Turrican sucks ass, no way does it compare to Aquales" or "I think Chaos Engine/Soldiers of Fortune is significantly worse than Arcus Odyssey" ect ect.

Still others will completely make up supposed faux par's concerning Mega Drive's Newzealand Story port.

:lol:

I thought I had told you to man up...
11-04-2012, 05:48 PM
tomaitheous

I don't understand why Lionheart is being compared to Castlevania. They are so far apart in design and gameplay, that's kind of ridiculous to compare them. You might as well be comparing Sonic to Lionheart. As polished as Lionheart is, it's still based on that Euro design feel of that era though. I don't know who made Mega Turrican for the Genesis (Japanese or Europeans, or both), but THAT was a badass game.

Quote:

I'm starting to think you might be one of those Weeaboo's I keep hearing about, I'm really feeling right now that if they just lazily dumped a generic Japanese mech into these games just like the ones you brought up earlier on X68 you'd see it as a big improvement.

Weeaboo? Old school Japanese games on average have a much better design overall than non-japanese games of the same genre/style of the 8 and 16bit era. That's not a minor opinion. That's a vast-vast majority opinion across the world. You know, by people who aren't Weeaboo's. Also what does mechs have to do with it? There are plenty of japanese games from that era that have no mechs. Plus, Castlevania has no mechs.
11-04-2012, 06:00 PM
Black_Tiger

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

One that could have played simultaneous sound samples would have been nice .

Just samples simultaneously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Yes the Mega Drive can do everything I forget . I love to play a Mega Drive game that featured simultaneous sound samples well , even the Amiga would outclass the Mega Drive when it come to sound half the time

Now simultaneous samples done well. $1300+ computer used as comparison to game console.

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Quote:

Quote Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118 View Post
Go play Street Fighter 2 then. Or maybe Mortal Kombat III? Or how about After Burner 2? Or what about Galaxy Force II? There's plenty of real games on the Genesis that have more than one sound sample going at a time. What do you think is doing the drums and voice samples in a lot of games? Many are using digital drums and digital voice samples
at the same time. Fighting games usually have a lot of their sound effects being done through the digital channel as well.

You for real ?. For starters the Speech in SF II on the MD is laughably bad, its better in MK III but compared to the SNES versions the MD loses out big time when it comes to simultaneous sound samples , never mind drum samples in Mega Drive games were again poor compared to the Snes.

Now the standard has begun to vary, but even though the MD has done it alright (who's qualified to quantify what "well" means?), a console released half-way through the generation becomes the standard to be measured against.

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I wasn't talking about the sample quality, I was simply pointing out that they are games that play 2 PCM samples at a time. The bad sounding voices have more to do with a poor sound engine, not the Systems capabilities, as many of Tiidos demos have shown. And I find the drums in Genesis games to be far better than whats in SNES games.

Signs . What next all the poor sounding Snes games are down to poor sound engines ? . When it came to simultaneous sound samples the MD game out a true 2nd best to that of the Snes or even the Amiga not down to poor sound engines but the Mega Drive suffering from having one channel for sampled sound

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The SNES had 8 so the SNES was able to pull speech samples out of it's ass while teh Mega Drive suffered. The MK3 game had MONO sound and half speech samples playing on one channel just to keep up with the SNES

.

Spot on . Just play MK III and SF II on both systems and hear the difference when it came to samples , even SEGA own internal teams couldn't do it

Now it's just that the MD is "second best" compared to a console from the same generation and some computer. Even though there was another comparable console from the same generation, computer comparisons continue instead.

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Originally Posted by sheath View Post
Eternal Champions has fine sample quality and playback. So does Toejam & Earl for that matter. It was all about properly timed code, not the system's capabilities. The SNES could never, ever, produce a great sounding tune like this though.

What . Eternal Champions has some of the most God afwul music and sound effects one can hear on the Mega Drive and so tinny it makes ones ear drums shake to the core. Yes Toe Jam & Earl had great music and sample sounds ; but it didn't do simultaneous samples has some sample would play the other would be cut out Streets of Rage II also had this issue so did Greatest Heavyweights thanks to the limits of the Mega Drive chip .

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Then explain Tiidos sound engine that gets 2 PCM channels working perfectly

Oh no... not more demo's and Youtube ? Play the real games on real hardware and hear the difference. Even the Amiga out did the Mega Drive when it came to sound and colour and that came out years before the Mega Drive . SEGA could and should have done better with the MD colour pallet and sound sample - But all machines had their pro's and cons

Now the definition of "well" is established as "not on MD" and nothing seemingly comparable counts because the focus has shifted from the "hardware" (title of the thread) to games released bitd.

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Those Youtube videos are recorded off of real hardware if they're from Tiido or me.

Name the game and I'll happily go out and buy it - Real my foot

Again, when someone gives a hardware example, TA shifts back to games he counts.

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It's still running on real hardware, and aside from the Wave Playing engine there's nothing preventing any of those homebrew Z80 sound engines from being used in a real game situation.

It not a game with all the worries of having to run other code and fit it all to a Cart , never mind a game that was made back in the day. Back in 1991/2 the Snes was doing Mode 7 and having no issues with simultaneous even if you were a bit part programmer; No need for youtube or tech demo's decades latter, it was doing it when the machine was going concern , same for the Amiga . At the end of the day when it came to colour and sound samples SEGA Mega Drive wasn't has good as it should have been.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

And who the hell are you ? Some little up start that was like 1 year old when the Mega Drive came out .
Let me tell you when it came to colour and simultaneous samples the MD had issues and had to play 2nd fiddle to the Snes and Amiga . A little bit embarrassing seeing has the MD came out after the Amiga

Back in 1990 no one was complaining about the quality of the MD's samples. But now the standard has evolved into "not as good as it should have been". Also, it's embarrassing that the MD came out after the Amiga. No mention of how embarrassing it is that the SNES came out after the Neo Geo, X68000, CPS1, etc.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Spoken a like little true American upstart that knows nothing inthe Big outside world . 1) To make out that I'm not an SEGA fan is an insult and laughable , but I guess you don't even know who Smilebit and Team Ardomeda are do you ? and before you even try and make out that I'm not a fan of the Mega Drive or SEGA have a little look at at http://www.youtube.com/user/TeamAndromeda?feature=mhee

But yet I'm getting a lecture off some little America upstart about what it to be a SEGA fan :D

2) Grow up and lean that you can be a fan of a Corp and hardware yet still have issues with them.

3) We live in a democracy and even on a SEGA board they should be freedom of speech. Yes I know its very un-America not to partisan , but you can still support something cherish it even , but you can find faults with it too. We don't all think like Fox news or like George Bush thankfully

Americans are true upstarts and partisans, America is not a democracy and all Americans think like Fox News and George (W?) Bush. Also, if you are not old enough, you cannot join the discussion until you have grown up. Only TA is qualified to define what it means to be a Sega fan and apparently it is knowing the names of a couple development teams.

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This issue is that when people presented him evidence to the contrary of what he's saying, he's just brushing it aside because he doesn't want to believe it.

What evidence ? Name and show me the game that in the day did simultaneous on the MD well and I'll happily eat my shorts . Why Mega Drive fans have such a hard time accepting the machine couldn't do it well or had a limited colour pallet is beyond me . Its like Atari ST fans making out the ST was better at sampled sound and colour when we all know otherwise and its the same for the Snes and MD (Chirst the MD coudn't handle Amgia ports well in terms of sound and samples) .
I'm not interested it youtube or tech demo done decades latter I much rather go on retail games around at the time
I'm sure people could do wonderful things on the Amiga and SNES today, but back in the day it was different and its only fair you compare games and systems around at the time they were a going concern

Back to "simultaneous samples well", but still won't acknowledge the examples of simultaneous samples done well in MD games from bitd which were given earlier, likely because of a desire not to have to eat his own shorts. Also Jesus, the MD couldn't handle ports of some computer's games well. No mention of how well SNES ports compare to the same games ported to the X68000, which embarrassingly was released up to 4 years earlier.

Just to confirm his obliviousness of how contradictive his arguments are, he says "its only fair you compare games and systems around at the time they were a going concern". Yet in the same sentence he once again compares a computer to consoles (but only a computer that doesn't make the SNES look bad).

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Those two games don't count because of reasons. TA's world view is far too important to be shattered by something as silly as facts

I own Contra corps on the MD and the speech is terrible and music not the best at all . Contra III music score and quality if far far better imo . Not that Contra Hard Corps is doing simultaneous speech either , but never mind

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How is it not obvious that the MD palette is flawed

It should have been in the thousands not the hundreds - Almost every MD developer I seen interview biggest issue with the MD was it limited colour palette .

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Then of course there were crazy enough developers who did push the MD to the limits, like Zyrinx

All good developers will push a machine to its limits and do things it's not really meant to do . I'm still amazed at effects on Awesome on my humble Amgia - Scaling and rotation and top notch music to boot .

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You can clearly hear multiple PCM samples being played during the fighting sequences

Doing it well , It sounds like crap and that's thanks it the limits of the chip . If the MD had more Hardware support of sample channels it wouldn't be an issue and you wouldn't have to worry about tools or poor programming - Which I think it a bit rich given SOJ and Capcom had their top Teams working on the port

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That's why I stepped in and told TA to just shut up, he's talking out of his ass here

If there anything worse than a partisan American ? My God its like Fox news on here - You're either with us or against us

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TA forgets that the Genesis has two CPU's

Nope I don't . The Saturn had more CPU's than the PS but it still came short in key area's I think you'll find even in the Sound area now and again

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so I can't cut them out, that's the whole point TA wants, isn't it? Raw footage

This is too much to take . You want Mortal Kombat III, Red Zone, SF II, Contra Hard Corps, Adv Of Batman & Robin ? and what about a MD to play them on? No wait.. how about a MD II, a Multi Mega or even better a WonderMega for the best MD sound possible ?

Here you go.

[a picture of some MD hardware and a few games that proves TA is a true SEGA fan]

I don't need lectures on MD games or what is to be a SEGA and Mega Drive fan from little upstarts .

Contra III sounds better than Contra Hard Corps. Now "simultaneous samples" has evolved into "simultaneous speech".

The Genesis color sucks because it wasn't displaying "thousands" of colors at once on 1989. Still no mention of the games or hardware of the PC Engine, which actually was around "at the time they were a going concern"... and which is generally considered to have strong color abilities, even though it has the same 512 master palette as the MD and its games only display between 50 - 150 colors at once.

The MD pushed to its limits is discounted as it being made to "do things it's not really meant to do".

The simultaneous speech in SFII for MD just "sounds like crap". No mention of the shortcomings of the simultaneous speech samples in the SNES versions. Only MD cons count and MD pros do not.

Sega-16 is like Fox News, because everyone else doesn't share TA's opinions. Also, everyone in the forum must be partisan Americans by default of not agreeing with him.

TA is more right than others who own less items than him.

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Contra HC does have 4 channels playing at the same time, the point was proving to TA it wasn't impossible for developers back then to do it.

Take those utter lies back, right now. I said it couldn't do simultaneous speech or samples well - Which the Mega Drive couldn't and why games like Sf II sounded like shit when it came to simultaneous speech and samples . Contra hard Corps on the MD sounds poor and even the samples cut out when the need to comes in to play simultaneous samples .

Now when it comes to colour and sound the Snes version is just way out in front of the MD version . The music on stage 3 blows the MD music score of Hard Corps completely out of the water (and lets remember that's from a game that came out in 1991 and on a Cart half the size of the MD version )

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

And here's the MD version . Oh my tinny sound everywhere, poor samples and rather poor music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA1aWjjIFJk

TA utters an "utter lie" by claiming that all he's being saying all along is that the MD "couldn't do simultaneous speech or samples well". These quotes show how his criticism of the MD has been constantly changing to suit each new example of what he previous said couldn't be done with the MD.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

It was just better at certain things than the Mega Drive when Konami, NCL made the Snes music chip sing it was hard for the MD to compete, hell the MD had a hard time trying to handle Amgia ports for music samples The MD versions of Speed Ball II, Xenon II (dear God what happend with the music there ?) Canon Fodder , Shadown of the Beast lost out big time .

Everyone takes the piss out of the game but Alerted Beast had great music and high quality samples (way better than the Arcade version) Pete Sampras 96 had fantastic speech too

The MD had a hard time handling ports from some computer for music samples.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

:) . My CRT is stereo too and I own the original games too. Still thank the lord for everdrive and youtube for those that don't

Another reminder that TA has spent more money than others.

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And on the subject of color, who the hell cares if the MD had only 64 colors on screen?

I doubt many. It was more the colour pallet that was a issue and where the MD came up short

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FM is much better than muffled, reverberated, filtered, memory choked ADPCM

Depends . I like the music in the MD versions of Ghost N Ghouls far more than the Snes spin off or the Arcade and the MD version of SF II is far more faith to the Arcade for music, Alien III on the MD sounds incredible and blows the Snes version into bits , buten the music scores in Super Metroid, Axelay, Castlevania IV, Star Fox took some beating.

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Even the Amiga blows the SNES out of the water when it comes to music

The Amiga was class I'm a massive fan of the system . So its a poor show on SEGA part that when it came to colour and sound the MD was 2nd best for a machine that came out latter.

TA has it backwards about the color. The PC Engine proves that 512 colors to choose from is fine, it was the 64 colors on-screen limit that is the issue.

The shortcomings of SNES samples are pointed out and TA ignores them, instead only agreeing that FM music can sound better than SNES music.

Once again, it shames sega that any hardware preceding the MD was better at color and sound. He has yet to say the same about SNES/Nintendo.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Go back to your Mono tv & everdrive mate

Again, TA is better than people who have spent less money than him.

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What's the problem with the guy using a mono TV and an Everdrive MD

Ironic beyond this board ? .
I've no problems with people playing games on a mono TV or using a Everdrive . But when these people in question start giving me letures on sound and what is to be a SEGA fan I have to have laugh. What self respecting sound aficionado would be playing their systems on a shitty mono TV ? , What self respecting SEGA fan would be playing ROMS instead of owning and playing the originals?.

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He's just a fucking troll and he knows it.

On yes the Troll that unlike you owns the original games , no need for ROMS or youtube but that's what it is to be a real SEGA fan.

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TA basically called TmEE a liar.

Where ?

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TA hasn't programmed jack shit for the Genesis,

And how many Mega Drive games have he released or for that matter how much has he programmed for the SNES. What you forget is TA bought over 150 Mega Drive games and still owns them (no need for Everdrive), still owns the hardware and still plays a hell of a lot of the them ;I'm all too familiar with the shorts comings of the system when it came to colours and sound and you don't have to be a programmer to know and see that . What next only SNES programmers can comment on SNES games?. Since you haven't produced a single line of code its irony at its peak to have a good go at others, When was the last time you programmed a SNES or Mega Drive game mate ?

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Too bad that your awesome WorderMega doesn't make you any smarter though

1) I'm smart enough to spell WonderMega correctly :P and 2) No the Wondermega doesn't make you smarter, but it sure has hell makes your Mega Drive/Mega CD games sound that little bit better thanks to the 'Game' mode

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So wouldn't that make them have stereo sound

Ok for recoding , but when you're playing the games you get sound in mono through the TV :P

TA explains that his pretentious dismissal of those who don't own the same gear as him is really just a reaction to the arrogance of someone defining what it means to be a Sega fan. TA then proceeds to define what it means to be a Sega fan.

In response to the implication of being a douche bag over his Wonder-MEGA ownership as credential posts, TA reaffirms it.

TA still has not heard of headphones.

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I play games with headphones. And I play it loud

The Snes had a Headphone jack, very clever I must say.

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Besides, any Sega fan would know that using a real stereo amplifier, is better than ANY TV speakers.

They would !. Which is why I play my SEGA consoles through my Yamaha Amp and we all know SEGA loved Yamaha

Contradicts his previous post after the obvious is pointed out.

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Sorry, not a fan of Yamaha amps, and hell no to Bose.

Bose ? You've lost me on that one and not a fan of Yamaha ? Shame on you, what with you being a SEGA fan and we can all post links to websites mate :P

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You don't have to use the consoles own headphone port since the SNES didn't have one. You use the amp

That sorts of defeats the whole object of having a Amp in the 1st place.

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I could have sworn yesterday TA replied to TmEE directly to his Contra having 4x PCM samples, and he said "Lies!

You can't find it , because I never said it , but never mind

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Maybe the snes distracted me with all sorts of flashy hardware effects but it looks like there's plenty of stuff going on at once without slowdown. I always thought the concept of a gaming machine should be extremely powerful video and audio hardware.

It depends on the game and of course the skill of the programmer . Smash TV on the Snes is far better than its MD counter part, there's a ton of action in the likes of R-Type III too.
Sound again it depends I tend to like FM more for music has too many SNES games and Amiga sounded to similar, there was much more variety to MD music, but its paid the price for samples or when trying to emulate the sound of an Electric Guitar or drums .

Being a Sega fan now includes Yamaha worship.

MD can't do good guitar or drum sounds.

Here's the quotes from TA that he said couldn't be found because he never said them-

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Contra HC does have 4 channels playing at the same time, the point was proving to TA it wasn't impossible for developers back then to do it.

Take those utter lies back, right now. I said it couldn't do simultaneous speech or samples well

Contra hard Corps on the MD sounds poor and even the samples cut out when the need to comes in to play simultaneous samples .

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Because we all know the Genesis can't do Electric Guitars and Drums well at all.

You're having a laugh right . 1st off I should play system 16 game on here with regards to the SNES and say it doesn't sound like that for real, but hey its ok to post music videos of Mega Drive games right ?.
2) if you think that a Electric Guitars then god help us all.

The Mega Drive just couldn't this

[youtube video of extremely unnatural sounding synth guitar]

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

or this

[youtube video featuring warbly muffled fart sounds

TA prefers the fake guitar sounds of the SNES to the fake guitar sounds of the Genesis.

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You still sound like an elitist jerk but you probably don't care about it,

Yeah all us Elitits boats about own a Mega Drive and a Stereo TV Its living the dream and the high life for sure lol.

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Um headphones can benefit from an amp too

Stereo Tv's had a headphone socket too . I know no-one that shells out on a expensive amp only to then use Headphones . So I'll take no lectures off you when it comes to Sound or what it is to be a Mega Drive fans thanks

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So are you the one entitled to define what is to be a Sega fan

No I'm not the one saying who can comment on here or isn't a SEGA fan.

Or smart enough to nitpick a typo like that while you can barely
And you're not nick picking ? I take it irony is beyond you too

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Just like any good stereo will do, but with more options

Play a Wondermega and hear the difference the Game mode dps mode with make to any Mega Drive and Mega CD game - When it comes to sound in ones Mega CD and Mega Drive games, the Wondermega is in a class of its own and of coruse, it's by far the best looking 16 bit system ever made . And like the real SEGA fan one is, I made sure to buy the SEGA model and not the JVC one

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Rock/Metal is by far one of those.
I can't take TA seriously, he is arguing these things, and it shows he doesn't actually know what he is talking about.

And we can take you seriously ?

Techno I'll give you that, but Rock isn't Techno and the Mega Drive had a time trying to complete with Snes and Amgia when playing electric Guitars. But by all means post me tech demo from youtube to prove otherwise

After previously claiming that his Wondermega makes him smarter, a perfect speller and better than other people, TA deflects an accusation of being an elitist by misspelling elitist.

Admits to ignoring the opinions of someone because they own less gear than him. After previously saying he knows best whose comments matter or not and what defines being a Sega fan, he denies it once he's called out on it. Calls some a nitpicker for pointing out a spelling error after his WonderMega spelling comments from earlier.

Reminds us once again that he owns a Wondermega and tells someone to "play" one, as an elitists jab at the have-nots. Says he's a real Sega fan because he bought the uglier Sega model of Wondermega.

I know you are but what am I.

The MD can't compete for Rock music with the SNES or some computer.

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Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
Tim Follin doesn't count.

So we can only compare music done by the same composer on both systems ? .

Oh Here the MD utterly pathetic try at playing the same track

Yeah we didn't see much Tim Follin on the MD but there again he wasn't a fan of the chip and both he and Chris Huelsbeck weren't impressed with MS sound hardware in comparison to the Amiga and SNES . Shame as when it came to Techno Chris Huelsbeck was really good. Still at least SEGA fans got to enjoy Tim Follin talent on the DC with his epic work on Ecco

A couple of developers didn't like the MD sound as much as SNES or some computer. No mention of the ones on record as saying that they prefer the MD sound over the SNES.

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Compare the tunes of Aladdin in Megadrive vs Amiga, the Amiga

Both suffer to the Snes version (ok its not the same version) and I really didn't think the MD version of Aladdin sounded great for music (sound effects are better mind) and it kicked both the Snes and Amiga for graphics granted. But me MD ports of Amgia games suffered greatly when it came to sound , rather than the other way around - Games like Desert Strike sounded way better on the Amgia than MD and Amiga ports to the MD like Speedball 2, GODS, Louts II, Xenon II, Cannon Fodder suffered greatly in music dept.

Unimpressed by the music of Aladdin.

Some computer's music wasn't ported well to the MD.

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This is him on the MD (recorded off a model 2, so it sounds poor, but nobody disagrees the model 2 genesis sounds shitty)

1) Why is ok for you and rest of the system 16 faithful to post videos of Mega Drive and never say it doesn't sound like that for real, unlike the moment any posts a Snes music video ?And yet again a link to a game that never came out , love it

2) Yeah the track sounds great Tim Follin is brilliant - You want me to post the interview with him on the Snes and MD sound ?. I have it somewhere and he's not the biggest fan of the MD sound (though hardly a knocker of it ) and said the SNES was way better for sound in his opinion

When the SNES was used right the MD just couldn't compete

[youtube video of the kind of reverbing reverb that the Genesis doesn't do]

Again calling this site "system 16". Now disqualifies a professionally made game from bitd by a developer using the same tools as other developers at the time... just because it technically didn't end up being published. The hardware and what it can and did do bitd doesn't count, by any means necessary (ie: constantly revising the rules).

The soundtrack of that game does not count, but the words of the guy who made it do count when they put the MD behind the SNES.

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but so were MD ports to Amiga... exactly my point

Sound wise John Madden lost nothing, The likes of Desert Strike (much better sound effects ), Chuck Rock 2 sounded way better on the Amiga for music imo. When it came to Amiga music on the Mega Drive it lost out big time

Some of the ports from MD to some computer didn't turn out worse for sound.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Ok. Keep on linking to games that never came out or to tech demo decades latter - Think I'll stick to actual games that came out at the time

Seems to be sticking to his latest revision that games made at the time don't count, if he thinks that they weren't commercially published.

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Most SNES OSTs on youtube are recorded off emulators

And you never post links to Emu's running MD games ? like the sytem 16 faithful; In the Batman and Robin MD tread emu shows its hand, but hey that's ok its MD, not the SNES. While some us so called non SEGA fans on the other hand play the 'original' game on the 'actual' Hardware

[youtube video of emulation?]

It's coming to the stage where I'll have to pull my SNES out for attic and start uploading vids

TA cares is a hardcore enough Nintendo/SNES fan that he is planning to put together a series of videos recorded from real actual SNES hardware. Still no attempt by him to search out good examples on MD.

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Speaking of which here some great samples on a MD game and not a emu or ROM in sight

[youtube video he says is recorded from real MD hardware, that does simultaneous speech/sound samples WELL]

TA finally manages to prove himself wrong, beyond a shadow of doubt, with a video that somehow meets ALL of his ever evolving criteria of what counts. An MD games that was published bitd, which runs clear simultaneous speech samples at once, in the middle of running an actual game.

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Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
Okay, well, what about:

Ghouls N Ghosts - Bee(s) 638 KB MP3 - 1989

Musha - Level 5 4705 KB MP3 - 1990

Forgotten Worlds - Level 6 2193 KB MP3 - 1990

Batman - Level 1 2820 KB MP3 - 1990

? I've already said I like the music in Ghost N Ghouls better than the Arcade and Snes spin off . Like the music in Musha and FW too , think the music in Batman isn't that hot myself .

And while is lost out a bit with Amgia I love the MD version of the Battle Squadron music

He likes the music of some computer version of a game more than the music in the MD version.

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It hides the flaws and only shows the good. Genesis emulators tend to have the opposite effect. They make the flaws more pronounced and hide the good. If you notice, when people post a very bad emulator

What a load of excuses and a little rich from that loves to use emu vids when it suits , not least when it comes to Saturn . Btw I don't use emu for my SEGA stuff mate, for the last time !

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Oh please.

LOL. Looking how it sounds poor in comparison (the 2nd stage sounds like a Master system game) , I should point out and say it doesn't sound like that for real . How about posting videos on real Mega Drive games running on actual Hardware .

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You were making examples of symphonic/ambient tracks and tracks wit guitars as the main instrument

When it came to Electronic guitars and drum samples the MD suffered in comparison to the Snes and Amiga imo.

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sounds more polished than Desert & Jungle Strike to my ears

Funny they both sound like pish to me . How about you post a vid of Desert Strike running on the MD, Amgia and Snes and still try and make out the MD versions sound best

Even though it is generally agreed upon that MD sound is notoriously difficult to emulate and usually sounds worse in emulation and even Nintendo fans talk about how much better SNES sound sounds when enhanced by emulators, TA considers reality biased towards the MD. The fact that videos using emulation in other threads is used only to show the overall gameplay/impression of games (not something as specific as sound quality) and is done so with disclaimers is irrelevant to TA. He can't grasp such simple concepts.

A reminder that TA thinks that guitars and drum sound better on SNES and some computer.

MD Strike games also sound like pish to Sega fan whose Wonder-Mega helps him spell.

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Also, just to pwn TA for good, here's a Sonic 1 rom hack with a full PCM soundtrack running:

Here's a simple thing. How about you post a video or a link to a actual Mega Drive game released at retail at the time the Mega Drive was a going concern , That's only the only fair comparison one can do, since we're only comparing it to SNES games available at the time , or is fairness beyond this board too ?

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A farty trumpet vs synth guitar, that actually has vibrato and sustain like a real guitar

Nothing touch just pointing out the fact that the Snes and Amgia games sounded better with higher quality effects and better music , unlike most Amgia to Mega Drive games were the MD came out a 2nd best when it came to sound samples and music .

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This is what the MD really sounds like

More like it . I agree Alien 3 and SOR sound brilliant and play to the MD strengths. Mega Drive was good at Techno, no really good for rock though .

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MEANWHILE ON THE PC IN 1992

Brining the PC into now ?, what that's fair . Back in 1992 I was playing this , much better music imo and no need for a £1000 PC

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It was TA claiming that the Genesis sucks at doing PCM, which isn't really true

Of course its true, when it had to handle more than 1 channel - It would lose out , unless you can post a video of a actual Mega Drive that did well when the need came it for multi PCM samples .

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Also, I might as well just slip this in right here:

Christ is someone was do the same with the Mega Drive or the Saturn you'll have to say . When it came to sound the MD lost out to this

Sonic 1, which was published bitd, having a full sample added to it and still running properly doesn't count. Tech demos don't count either, because they don't have to run a full game at the same time (even though they often do, such as the Sonic 1 hack). Given all that, TA still won't disqualify SNES games that use extra hardware added to the cart to help run the game (soundtrack and all). Also, this entire board is blindly biased.

SNES and some computer sound better than MD. The computer's games sounded better before being ported to MD.

MD techno = good. MD rock = bad.

COMPARING A COMPUTER TO CONSOLES IS NOT FAIR... except when I constantly do it to shame Sega and the MD.

TA takes a quote simply saying that the MD can do clear samples and responds to it as though they were saying that the MD can do multiple samples and challenges once again, for anyone to post a video of the MD doing multiple clear samples in a game. Totally ignores the video he posted himself of the MD doing multiple clear samples in a game.

Bad SNES music would sound even badder on MD.

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CAN do multi PCM fine, and how many times will I have to say to you, that Alien Soldier does 2 channel PCM and sounds good enough

What is this fine ?. It does it ok , but compared to SNES and Amiga it loses out and no I don't think the music or sound effects in Treasure Mega Drive games are that hot tbh- not compared the games they helped to make on the Snes with regards to Contra III, Axleay and Super Castlevania

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It doesn't matter if it came out at retail or not

Of course it does , if you want to be fair and equal about it . Its funny this board screams blue murder when linking to a Snes game, but has no trouble linking to tech demos of Mega Drive games and the best part is those tech demo's are only doing what the Snes did in the 1991/2 decades latter and they still can't match the Snes for quality .

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Enough of the multi PCM talk, just take it for what it is; the Genesis can do multi PCM and sound good if programmed correctly

And the Snes can do action games if programmed correctly, but NCL made it hardwork with a limiting CPU in just the same way SEGA made it hard for samples with its Mega Drive Sound board . Compare Mega CD games to Mega Drive games - Games like Fifa, Pitfall , Sensible Soccer, Bill Walsh college football benefit greatly from massively improved sound effects (not CD music) thanks to the Mega CD PCM chip and those were pretty standard ports and just showed what a difference a more capable chip can do for samples and just look at SEGA Arcades boards did they no use PCM sound chips - but listen to this board FM was the way to go, even in the 90's

MD samples have been upgraded to "ok" now. Everything Treasure did sounded better on SNES.

Now jumping back to 'only sound from games made bitd counts' (except when he disqualifies them anyway). Now admits that some of the MD tech demos ARE as good as published SNES games (but they still don't count).

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

The art of debate , coming from you the 'mono' partisan American ? Irony at its peak I must say . The art of debate is to allows free speech, even if you happen not to share those views , But go back to your ROMS, mono TV and Fox News ;)

Americans hate freedom of speech, love piracy and watch Fox News on mono TVs.

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Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
If core had never made scaling games for the sega cd, TA would be one of the many who claim that it added nothing but cd audi

o.
The Mega CD also added a PCM soundchip, CPU - Thought why SEGA added Scaling/Rotation support, CPU and a new Soundchip to Mega CD when this board knows better is quite beyond me .

Indecipherable english(?)

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No one here is stopping you from posting SNES tech demos

I don't do it for the Saturn or the Mega CD or DC - I only post videos of actual finished games - Games where they have to run on retail hardware, need to handle and worry about player input and Cart/storage limits ect.. and more importantly where anyone can buy and experience them so they can see/hear and compare it for their self's . The only true and fair way to do it and anyone should be able to understand that

Now by all mean post back with videos of good Mega Drive music and samples I'm all for that and I really don't care if they emu links ( I like to see and hear good Mega Drive games) . Just please if you can keep it to actual games that were out at Retail and at the same time of the SNES or Amiga .

Here is some of the class stuff the Amiga could so

[youtube videos of some computer's games]

Reminder that only full featured and ready for retail games count to him (unless they got canceled before being shipped).

Asks for others to compare some computer to the MD and SNES (JUST NOT A PC!).

Posts videos of the one computer that he continues continues to push in a console comparison, even though it would be disqualified by his own rule against other computers.

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Homebrew is still running on real hardware.

Howbrew is done decades latter in a lot of cases and if we were comparing Snes Homebrew to Mega Drive ones then it would be fair but we not and to me that's not fair at all. I rather compare like for like and to me that means Mega Drive games and Snes games out at the time of the machines were a going concern and were developers were working with the constraints and tools around at the time - That to me is fair and square

Why can't you hit back with Mega Drive games around at time, why do always have to run to Howbrew to try and prove a point ? That to me on its own is telling

Claims that everyone disagreeing with him only cites tech demos made decades later. Continues to ignore the examples given by others and himself of MD games that were published bitd.

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Just because it's made a decade or so later doesn't make it unfair

Of course it does- What could some of the best Snes sound programs do decades latter ?. Compare like for like that's fair

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And we have brought up Genesis games from the 90's, you either shrug them off or say they suck for vague reasons.

Which ones ? - When it comes to games like Ghost N Ghouls , Alien 3 I would agree - I love you lot trying to make me out not to be a Mega Drive or SEGA fan . You can be a fan of system and love everything about it , but still point out its short comings and when it came to samples and colour the MD had issues; just like the Saturn had issues with Lighting and Transparent 3D effects and you know there's no bigger Saturn fan on GOD's green Earth then me.

SNES would sound even more perfect than perfect if tech demoes were made today (but please don't post any to see if it's true).

Defiant in the face of his hypocracy being pointed out yet again. TA points out all the flaws in game hardware... except those in the sound of SNES games.

Everyone how they know that TA is a better Saturn fan as defined by his religion.

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Again, this is obvious, and I didn't suggest otherwise. People keep giving you tech demos of homebrew projects because it demonstrates a good use of the MD hardware

Techo demo's done years latter its not fair at all - Even youtube has only been going for a few years and that's overlooking the huge community and tools any bidding coder has to fall back on now - Stuff that simply wasn't there in the early 1990's .In the old Days the likes of Core were using an Amgia 500 to developer MD games and a Art package like Deluxe II . The sound programs and Art packages one can download for free now at way way in advanced to what was available to programmers in the early 1990's

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The SNES used add-on chips for everything else, why not an add-on chip to expand the Sound capabilities

many of the better SNES games never used a extra chip and in a lot of cases looked or in most sounded better than the MD . Games like F-Zero, Contra III , SF II, Axelay

Also if there was no issues with the MD sound - Why the need to for the Mega CD to add a sound chip, why the need for VR on the MD to add a extra channel and why the need for 32X to add extra channels - Listen to this board they were all utterly pointless

I haven't even posted a video of this yet

[youtube videos of a SNES game developed for SNES hardware]

And here's the MD trying to do the same (waits for homebew vids to be posted back )

[youtube videos of a poorly made MD port of a game designed around the SNES]

TA has spelled later as "latter" enough times now to confirm that he really believes it's spelled like that.

The MCD and 32X prove that the MD sound was not good enough.

Bad ports from SNES to MD prove just how bad the MD really is.

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The demos we do have are from homebrewers often working with whatever tools have been developed by various fans in their own spare time. Without official dev kits and tech support from Sega

There's a huge community around today , that just wasn't there in the old days . I believe the likes of Dave Perry had to lie to get a Mega Drive technical manual and one where it was badly translated. Those are issues that no bedroom coder will have today Its all on-line and there's a huge community to ask should you have any issues, nothing of which was around inthe early 90's , never mind 88 when the MD hit the market . That's the trouble with the internet today , people who can do a bit of coding in their space time , the odd make up effects or Guitar rifts and so on All now think they're better than SEGA, Tom Savini or Van Halen or Dimedag Darrell when all the secrets of the trade are up on-line ect and where they done it all decades ago. Yet most of these upstarts are stuck in dead end jobs and will never make a retail game in their life's , but my GOD they know more about the machines than SEGA who made the console in the 1st place or they know more about effects than Tom .

Ok its generalising, but it does annoy me when I see people who can do the odd bit of code, think they know more and they're above everyone else and what they say is the Gospel.

The challenges of developing for MD today are overall minimal compared to what professional developers faced bitd.

After explaining time and time again how superior TA thinks he is and why he is a better judge (and person in general) than others... it annoys him when anyone familiar with hardware and/or programming does the same. Owning a Wondermega > intimate knowledge and experience of developing for the MD.

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You don't need homebrew to prove the sound capabilities of the Mega Drive, just see the other page.

I don't need the other page . I played my fav share of MD games I'm well aware it can produced amazing music Just that it would come a 2nd best when it came to samples or trying to emu Electric guitars

I'm not going to convinced no matter what, so why is everyone still trying?

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Wow TA, you AGAIN posted a Tim Follin soundtrack with a cheap midi->fm conversion for the genesis

Yeah a actual real Mega Drive game amazing I know (insert its running on emu here) . Now if the Mega Drive had a chip equal to that of the Snes or the Amiga I doubt it would have lost out in the port .After all even piss poor Saturn ports of PS games tended no to lose out Big time in the sound dept, but there again the Saturn had a rather decent sound chip

A poor sound conversion to MD would not be as poor if the MD was actually a SNES.

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Sega of Japan originally planned on selling Sega Jupiter overseas as a stop gap console

Jupiter was the Saturn minus the CD-Rom was it was planned to be a stop gab at all and it was planed to go on sale in Japan too

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They learned about it in January 1994 the same time Sega of America learned of the other prototypes SOJ had been planning.

Mars project was around in 1993 and even the press knew and reported on it .

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Or maybe, just maybe, if they had instead... I don't know... hired an actual musician (maybe even Tim Follin himself) to do the Mega Drive versions music, maybe, just maybe, it wouldn't be a cheap midi-fm conversion which sounds like utter garbage

It would have been easier to put a more capable sound chip inside the machine at the end of the day.

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TA, how do you think that huge community came about?

The internet and the huge howbrew community that's built up . You used you like your modding consoles didn't you ? You got any issues or need help all you got to do is ask on-line and I'm sure people will help you . That sort of help just wasn't there in the early 1990's

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Those developers at least had development kits, official documentation, official tools, and all the time they needed to figure it out.

Not it all cases , but in most granted and if those developers had trouble with the MD soundchip then you know it's a hardware issue . Answer me this if the MD chip was so good , why the need for a extra sound chip in the Mega CD, extra channels in Virtual Racing on the MD or the extra channels in the 32X . It was quite clear than the MD had issues when playing multiple channels of sample sound.

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The only facts TA believes are what his vintage 90's gaming magazines tell him

TA actually owns and play the games - An alien concept to some I know, but some of us still own and play Mega Drive games, never mind Saturn

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He doesn't care what the OP wants. TA cares about only what's going through his trolling

I care enough to own games the question , That's the difference

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Sega was doing really bad knee jerk reactions back in the early 90s, which pretty much controlled all the hardware they released.
- The PC Engine has a next gen CD Accessory now! The Megadrive needs one, even though we have to hack the hardware to make it possible!
- Oh the SNES has better PCM sound and scaling effects? Let's put that in the Mega CD!
- Atari and Nintendo released a handheld? Quick, let's convert the Master System to handheld form!
- Shit, Nintendo put expansion chips in their carts! We need to do that too!
- The Megadrive is looking too aged now with all the Nintendo extra cart chips and 3DOs running around! It needs an upgrade or else we won't be bleeding edge anymore

That's sort of true but then all corps react when something becomes successful (just how SONY and MS tried to jump on the motion bandwagon) and to be fair the Mega CD came out in 1991 some 4 years after NEC CD-Rom2 I think all corps were looking at the CD-Rom to be fair. Nintendo were putting chips into their NES games and SEGA didn't react - I think the job of trying to port a start of the Art Model 1 coin up forced SEGA to add in some extra Hardware

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I wouldn't put anything EA up for music awards on the Genesis

EA did some great music and sound effects on the MD. The music and effects in Star Flight are class and the title music and speech in John Madden is to this day sheer class

A better sound chip would have been better.

Not all pro MD developers bitd had the best resources, but everyone since has all had the best of everything and are all superior MD developers. MCD and 32X were made because the MD sound is terrible.

TA owns games and hardware and is therefore infallible. The thread topic is irrelevant because TA has some games.

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It was hard to program, nobody is denying that, we're arguing your claims that it can't do good multi channel PCM when there's tons of examples, even back then

I never said the MD couldn't do multiple samples (we all have played SF II ) - I said it couldn't do them well that is the difference - Good programming can hide a lot of Hardware and design issues but in most cases it's always better to have Hardware support to do it for you, rather than need the skill of the programme to mask it for the machine

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You're right, they had official develpment kits by sega instead

Yep and even then they still had issues , even though they had support from SEGA and all their tech doc's . Kind of shows it was a Hardware issue , after all even SEGA games had problems too and they made the console.

What TA did say, constantly evolved to rebuff any given argument in the MD's favor. This latest version was disproven by the video he posted himself.

Now pro MD devs having limited tools is proof of the hardware's shortcomings.

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However, you're claiming (specially by bringing up SF II), that it can't do good quality multi channel PCM. That's false. Two good examples are UMK3 and Alien Soldier. Nowadays you can do much higher quality stuff, all the homebrew drivers can do multi channel high quality PCM just fine. Pier Solar uses Tiido's driver, that's a full game, not a tech demo

MK 3 on the Snes sounds way better that's a fact and its made by the same Team for the conversion and guess what for colours and sound the SNES wins out , No ? . Have you really played Alien Solider ?, the music and sound effects really aren't that impressive at all ; Sure graphically its doing stuff on the MD that the Snes would have heart failure to emulate, but sound wise the trademark tinny MD effects come in to play and the samples are nothing to write home about . Also wow you again bring up a game made decades latter - I'm sure if a decent How brew Team made a really effort with a SNES game and put it on a huge Cart we could see some impressive results - after all Pier Solar is only doing what SNES RPG's did rather easily in the early 1990's.

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TA must prefer the Amiga 500 to the X68000

Never owned the Sharp , but they again I don't think its fair to compare a grands worth of high end to tech to a general games machine at a mass market price - But if I had to call It, I would say overall the Amiga would have the better number of good games and the better machine to buy .

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TA forgot that I do own some real games. Like on MK3, I even showed the real cartridge

More like you thought I didn't own the games and I did .

Once again, when an example is given that meets his last posted qualification: a MD game published bitd that did multiple samples well... -the SNES version sounds better so why hold TA to his own standards?

Disqualifies the X68000 with a description that fits the Amiga as well.

TA owns MK3 for MD.

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What? I never said you didn't.

You tried to make out I was a troll and not a SEGA fan .

Well trolls don't tend to own the stuff they bash and this SEGA fan still owns the games and the original Hardware.

TA spent a bunch of money on Sega items that you don't have.

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Really now? Let's compare shall we?

How many games came out for the Sharp mate ? compared to the amount of classics on the Amiga ? and if you want to play your silly little game then the Sharp X68000 is also better than the Mega Drive with faster CPU, and closer Arcade conversions .

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You know what? Just shut up. You fail miserably at everything

Really . How many here owned or still own a Sharp X68000 . At least I'm honest about never owning the unit and its funny to see the ones who say its unfair to link Snes emu, linking Sharp X68000 emu videos with out a care in the world and I highly doubt TrekkiesUnite118 or Kamahl ever owned a Sharp X6800 unit and so couldn't possible know what its sounds like for real

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Thread effectively derailed. And all because TA can't read.

Either way, just to finish this discussion, the Amiga hardware is WAY more impressive than the X68000 hardware considering it was released in 1985 and cost a fraction of the price. It's not better though, and the (action) games mostly suck. Even non-abysmal fan favorites like the Second Samurai are grainy low FPS garbage with the music cutting all the time.

It's a shame because looking at the hardware it should be able to do a lot better, and games like Fighting Spirit, Disposable Hero and Virocop showed it could.

Its you that needs to read more, I didn't even bring the X68000 into it, that would be TrekkiesUnite118.

After constantly comparing some computer in a console discussion, TA now blames someone else for derailing the thread by mentioning some other computer.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

PGA Golf , Monkey Island 1 & 2 Lemmings, Stunt Car Racer, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, Sensible Soccer, Cannon Fodder, Lotus Esprit Turbo Challenge, Syndicate, Speedball 2 , Flashback, Pinball Dreams and I haven't even began to scratch the surface of the classics that were out on the Amiga

If you want to bring the X68000 in to it, then its better than the MD Since it has a faster CPU and closer Arcade ports , but I take it we're only comparing X68000 to the Snes ?

Like I said you know that for real ? with out ever owning the actual Hardware . I'm pretty sure many people have really played the X68000 for them self's and more would have no doubt played the FM Towns Marty

LOL that's even worse . I never brought the X68000 into the debate, until others did . I've never seen it fair to compare PC's to the consoles at all

And yet he's been using a computer to trash the MD all along.

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For TA the amiga could never do SF2 because all the ports are crap

No I'm a big fan of the Amiga . Sadly it never had the backing from the major Japanese developers with their budgets and teams sizes and I bet half the time the people doing the ports of Japanese Arcade games didn't have the source code either .

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At least Capcom did it, anyway. So technically games like Strider or SF2 were not arcade ports, but the arcade games were x68k ports.

No quite they're still conversions . If you want to talk 68000 ports then that would have be on Capcom very own console really

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Oh for fucks sake TA it's right in the video descriptions for them

LOL and that make its real ?

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We weren't comparing PC's to consoles, we were simply mentioning it as an example

I think you are and if you want to play that game then the Sharp X68000 is more powerful than the Mega Drive with a better CPU .

Only one computer is fair to compare to consoles and TA is "a big fan of' it.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

And how you know . You ever owned a Sharp X68000 ? . The point is hardly anyone really got to use and play the unit in the West, new what it gamer controlled look like . When it comes to Sharp most of us have to use Google or Youtube but mind you the native res of the system is a give away if people are using a emu I guess

I would imagine the Sharp uses a differnt operating system has difference levels of Ram Ect and so it wouldn't be a simple port , not like porting CPS games to Capcom Power System Changer home console

Thread fully derailed into computer comparison discussion now.
11-04-2012, 06:11 PM
Barone

Man, you have some awesome stuff there ^.
lol, it's just so awesome to trace and analyse those stupid posts.

By the way, rep'ed.
11-04-2012, 08:20 PM
Thenewguy

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Originally Posted by Barone

I thought I had told you to man up...

Pffft, you're the one whining about TA, maybe you should practice what you preach.

Judging by your repeated, purposeful avoidance of commenting in depth on any of these Amiga games I have to come to the conclusion that you simply have very little experience with any of them, personally I think you're just trying to wing it.

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Originally Posted by Tomaitheous

I don't understand why Lionheart is being compared to Castlevania. They are so far apart in design and gameplay, that's kind of ridiculous to compare them.

This has already been laid out, they're both platform games with moving, swinging, and rotating platforms, they both have ground-based and floating enemies, and a multi-directional melee attack, that doesn't make them that similar of course, but it most certainly doesn't make them so far apart in gameplay that they can't be compared to each other.

Comparing Sonic to Mario is a worse comparison, and I don't often see people pointing that out

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Originally Posted by Tomaitheous

Old school Japanese games on average have a much better design overall than non-japanese games of the same genre/style of the 8 and 16bit era. That's not a minor opinion. That's a vast-vast majority opinion across the world.

The vast opinion across the world on retro console focused forums or in countries where everyone grew up on mainly Japanese games.

Go on some computer forums PC/Amiga/C64/Spectrum etc, people there often say Japanese games on average are formulaic, samey, and lightweight. In reality most people simply like whatever is familiar to them, computer owners often prefer computer games, and console owners often prefer console games.

and if Japanese games are so obviously superior, and if everyone supposedly knows this to be true but me, then it seems pretty odd that (having seen loads of sales data) the majority of high selling Mega Drive games in the US were actually western made, of course sales don't necessarily mean quality, but what it does mean is that the idea that 99.9% of American gamers obviously think Japanese games are superior is unsupportable.

Furthermore, flicking through one of my books "1001 Videogames You Must Play Before You Die" you find a pretty even spread between the two, checking some of my magazine journalist top 100s, and reader voted top 100s I find the same thing. So in reality what you're putting forth as some kind of well known fact is simply nothing more than your opinion, just like all the people who voted in those lists had their own, very different opinions.

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