That contra 3 song sounds choppy as hell.
Printable View
That contra 3 song sounds choppy as hell.
I don't know why fanboys always fight that fact. Whenever I point that out to one of them, I apparently don't know what the fuck I'm talking about. I always hear "wEll wUt about boWseR oR [insert other boss]?" I then try to explain it to them and just get childish insults. All you have to do is look up the SNES tech specs on any reputable site and you'll see that it only scales a BG layer, but no that can't be. For some reason it has to be able to scale sprites, it just has to. They have a massive inferiority complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
Lol it's easy to tell it's the background layer, because the background behind the supposed "sprites" is always black. Because if the background had a texture, you'd see it rotating too.
This is why Yoshi's Island had the Super FX chip, to aid in SPRITE rotating.
Yeah the Mega Drive can do everything in Software.... I forget . There isn't a Mega Drive game out there that is doing what the Contra stage 2 boss did .Quote:
I'm pretty sure the MD can do that kind of scaling and rotation
And the machine gun effect sounds like crap in hard Corps . In the end the music in is better in Contra III lets face it.Quote:
By the way, the explosion sound effect in Contra III sounds like wet farts.
? Its a Background made to look like a sprite and scaling and rotating 360 degree's is where the Mega Drive would have a issuesQuote:
Mode 7 can't scale or rotate sprites.
And a simple response would be that Konami didn't even bother to port the MD version to the GBA- And konami held full rights to the code . I do laugh at the childless knocking of a effect the Mega Drive didn't have . I guess John Madden must be shit given its pitch is just a graphical effectQuote:
There's a reason why the gba contra game has the stupid mode
Um I'm pretty sure Batman and Robbin pulls off a lot of nice special effects in Software, and does it very well too.
The mode-7 stages were replaced by stages from Contra Hard Corps -_-. Why do I even bother is what I'm wondering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
This will be my one and only Quoted For Truth post. Kamahl wins post of the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Oh ya, cause Genesis can't do any rotating and all that good stuff.
And real hardware too, and released way back when.
I have to spread some rep before I give it to Kamahl again
And let's not forget Hard Corps: Uprising, clearly not based on contra 3.
Neither was Contra Shattered Soldier. But we can't be too glib about it, Maximo was based on Super Ghouls N Ghosts for some inane reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Oh, and this game never saw the light of day on the SNES, because well, I don't think it would have handled these effects very well. The 68000 had more power to software these effects whereas the SNES would have needed to do it in software as well because it's PPU has nothing that could really aid it in doing this stuff.
I mean, this games graphical effects and music is fucking awesome!
My favorite graphically is at 5:16. The 3D floor that warps into the background in all sorts of directions, with a transparent mad hatters face that warps with the floor. This is real translucency too, not some fake dithered mess.
Lets see a Super Nintendo do that.
My point is the contra 3 top down stages suck. The side scrolling stages are where the game truly rules.
That won't matter because TA is set on that it is cool and he is right, so since he is using that as an example of the awesomeness, I countered it.
Hey are we using emu footage ? Show me a game where the whole Background rotates 360 degrees and scaling into the screen at the same time .Quote:
Genesis can't do any rotating and all that good stuff
Umm.... I'm pretty sure I've uploaded videos of batman & Robin (running on the real deal btw) But the background rotation on the boss is only 180 degrees and there's no scaling at the same time its a tough combo for the MD to handleQuote:
Um I'm pretty sure Batman and Robbin pulls off a lot of nice special effects in Software
Well then the simple answer to that is because the MG couldn't handle the effect .Quote:
The mode-7 stages were replaced by stages from Contra Hard Corps
LOL graphical effects make a game rubbish on here , don't you know and I love how yet again its ok to link emu footage . But I guess , graphical effects and emu footage only apply to Snes games .Quote:
I mean, this games graphical effects and music is fucking awesome
The game looks the same on real hardware. Get off your high horse about emulator footage.
Besides you completely slipped red zone. That was on real hardware
Because once again of course, red zone, because that game was filmed on real hardware you feel it is necessary to completely skip it just like the typical attitude that you always have.
Are you forget what people said to you?
Emu footage bad only for sound.
What wrong with video, besides glitches what can produce emulators?
Also, mode 7 like effect.
And I know - not real game, emulator, hurr durr, snes got the power!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iH_2VXjkS7g
In my opinion, mode 7 doesn't really add much in 16-bit era. Racing games were rubbish, and fps - just atrocious.
Same as N64, 2D of that era looks much better than 3D.
Be careful, that videogame is far too recent you know it cheats according to TA.
Also, how about that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfGQT_pzfs0
Special chips - not cheating, Nintendo use them pretty much in every second major title.
And yet, StarFox can only dream to achieve speed of VR.
There is one thing SNES Mode7 cannot do - that water reflection
Very true. Just like in the Batman and Robin game too during the mad Hatter boss, it has a reflection of a face in the tiles.Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
Ok, you know all of this because...??? What experience do you have with either of these systems, relative to coding and understanding how ANY of these effects work? What would you know about the difference between exploits of the video hardware VS 'real' software effects, relative to these systems? I'm sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. People making specific/bold claims about systems abilities without any real understanding of how it's working on the underlying interface/hardware.Quote:
Oh, and this game never saw the light of day on the SNES, because well, I don't think it would have handled these effects very well. The 68000 had more power to software these effects whereas the SNES would have needed to do it in software as well because it's PPU has nothing that could really aid it in doing this stuff.
Just because it's not dithered, doesn't make it any less fake. It is fake, because the Genesis has no such hardware for real color transparency. And it isn't a 'software' effect per se, it's an clever exploit of layers mid frame changes. I forget the details off hand, but this was all discussed in detail on this forum a few years back (I believe dragonboy brought it up). It's a trick and the SNES can do it just as easily.Quote:
My favorite graphically is at 5:16. The 3D floor that warps into the background in all sorts of directions, with a transparent mad hatters face that warps with the floor. This is real translucency too, not some fake dithered mess.
For the record, the music in AB&A is f-ing terrible. Terrible. It is the only game that I have EVER had to turn off the sound in order to play. And I've played some games with real shitty music/sound. Jasper Kyd's music from that era is terrible. I'd rather listen to SOR3 music, and some of that shit is completely wack-a-doo. Thankfully his newer generation stuffs are much-much better (last generation and this generation).
I know why the mirrored BG layer in PS isn't doable in mode 7 on the SNES (it's doable in other sPPU modes though). And I know TmEE knows why. So, does anybody else actually know why? I'm curious since it was mentioned.
I'm so tempted to make a thread "contra 3 vs everything".
I understand why contra 3 has those stupid top down stages. The snes was still a very new system when contra 3 came out so konami was just trying to do as many hardware gimmicks as possible. I remember playing contra 3 when it was new and those top down stages were kinda cool at the time, but over time they just stand out as the cheap gimmick that they always were.
The "mega gear" ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Really, why does team andromeda think that emulating something makes it go from nes quality to ps3?
A little something I've been working on. This's all real hardware (a real snes using an official nintendo gsu2 superfx cart with starfox soldered in with an eprom using an overclocked circuit to the superfxQuote:
Originally Posted by blackbirdru
These carts are very real, I've built a bunch on commission and they work in any regular snes or super famicom. And they're using the authentic nintendo later model superfx chip.
Yes the superfx out of the box was limited, but here's some proof that smoothness in starfox wasn't just something the superfx could "only dream to achieve". Out the box the sega VP chip obviously wins which is a pity that it wasn't used in any memorable games, but I kind of roll my eyes when people say "the superfx chip could NEVER DO THISSSSSssssssss". I can overclock the gsu 2 superfx chip to 50 mhz (which is so fast the snes can no longer keep up) and the gsu 2 still doesn't even get close to overheating. The gsu2 superfx is a great chip but nintendo kept the clock speed the same as the first beta version (the mario chip) which is why nothing ever had a great framerate out of the box.
Mode-7 only has a single background layer, while the mountains on the top are no problem (just a midframe switch), the reflection of the water would require a second background layer below the Mode-7 floor which the SNES can't do.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
A solution (assuming the SNES can take 272 sprite pixels per line, I don't know the real limit, but supposedly it's slightly more than 256 px), would be to have a smaller reflection using sprites (covering the whole screen + 1 for scrolling) and make sure the player never overlaps the reflection.
If I had to take a guess would it be that it's using 2 background layers where as from what I understand of Mode 7 on the SNES it could only use 1 Background layer when doing that effect?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
I agree that Software effects can only get you so far, and a really good SNES programmer could probably do somethings that the Genesis could only dream of doing by taking good advantage of the newer hardware. Though I do think the Genesis could easily replicate a lot of the effects SNES fans go on about in games that were released. For example it could probably pull of Bowser from Super Mario World with software effects, as well as some of the effects in Castlevania IV.
Wouldn't you have a similar problem when the ground is in the shot since the ground wouldn't reflect the same way as the water. Though if all you were doing was water I would imagine it would work ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
The Genesis was able to do effects that weren't possible on other platforms because of Pixie Dust™. Only Sega platforms can use Pixie Dust™ to achieve any graphical effect the system wasn't supposed to be capable of by game magazines. What effects couldn't be done without Pixie Dust™? I would ask Edge/Next Generation were the around for the 16-bit platforms, because they are the most unbiased source ever.
The 68000 is far faster than the CPU used in the SNES, and I'm sorry, the CPU in the SNES wouldn't be able to push all that while maintaining a constant speed. The PPU has NO mode that could have done most of those effects in hardware. Neither did the Genesis. It was all SOFTWARE. And of course the translucency can't be done on the Genesis VDP, but a trick nonetheless and the effect was reached. Just like you could use shadow and highlight to emulate translucency as was done on the title screen of some racing game (of which I forget the name of).Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
If I'm wrong, then prove it. Show me a game that did those kinds of effects while at a full 60fps, not utilizing the PPU's hardware features like it's infamous model 7. I do NOT see a 3.58MHz CPU being able to pull it off smooth.
And about the music, that's all your opinion just like it's my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Because you haven't wracked up your daily quotient of "I hate myself today" yet?
;)
I guess why everyone forgets a lot of tricks and quirks of Megadrive VDP and give all the credit to M68K.
VDP isn't the piece of crap a lot of people thinks.
Tomaitheous overreacting against some MD achievement isn't a surprise either.
True. Very true. But I still can't imagine the 3.58MHz CPU running the VDP and still getting away with half of what we see with the 68K combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by dr apocalipsis
Aren't some of the effects in Batman and Robin done with careful VDP tricks as opposed to actual software effects? For example a lot of the rotation effects look like they could simply be careful use of the tilting and flipping features of the VDP. That is if I'm understanding those features right from what Kamahl mentioned either in this thread or some other one.
I was mainly going on about only the mad hatter boss stage. That one is the impressive one to me. All others seem quite easy to do on other platforms.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
What makes the mad hatter stage appear so different than some say, racing game, is that it isn't a flat road, it goes up, and it goes down, etc. I'm not going to mention the cards that are scaling, because it looks like it's just multiple sprites pre-rendered.
There are some enemies (the little elf dudes) that looks like they ARE being rotated, and aren't pre-rendered, but I'm not sure.
I love it btw how tomaitheous comes in and starts countering what I say, yet does nothing to counter what TA says.
Can't have it both ways, you should have spoke up when he started spewing his shit around.
That Pier Solar mode 7 type stuff is very impressive. I have read that the problem when doing that on the Genny is that it takes a lot of cart space, is that true?, or a rumor?. If true, could a Mario Kart style game be done for the Genesis on a big cart, and if so, aproximately, how big would it have to be to aproach the quality of the original Super Mario Kart?
We need Tiido, Chilly, Stef or Tom to answer that. Or Sik too if he was still around.Quote:
Originally Posted by saturndual32
Risking saying crap, the cpu probably needs to do something similar to the following:
1. You need to calculate the transformation of the plane. (well optimized it's not a big deal)
2. You need to "texture map" the image onto the plane. (gonna waste a ton of cpu doing this)
3. If the map is compressed in any way (normal image compression or being a tile map), triple the cpu usage. (here's the space problem)
4. You need to render the image onto tiles (if pixel per pixel, it's like 4 times as much work as double pixels like in PS)
5. You need to DMA those tiles into VRAM (cpu can't run while there's DMA going on)
As you can see, that's a lot of work.
What??? Can't have what both ways? WTF are you talking about? TA is hard headed ignorant fool. I care not to discuss anything with him. Countering what you say? You presented more or less an "authoritative tone on the subject" in your posts (i.e. what you posted you know as fact), without really knowing anything about these systems... and I pointed it out. If you wanna talk shop, great, but you shouldn't make such absolute statements or assertions, else you're just gonna come off as mirroring TA's behavior. That's all. I hate to say pot-kettle-black in relation to TA posts ('cause well, TA is TA), but it kinda comes off like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
There's a lot that goes into this. You'd need know both 65816 and 68000 fairly well (I mean beyond just learning some instructions in assembly). And you need have some what in depth knowledge of both architectures/hardware as well. Then you need of figure out exactly how much cpu resource a given effect takes relative to a single frame, regardless that almost every effect is assisted by the video hardware (exploit or whatnot). The SNES is slower than the 68k in the Genesis; that's well known. But it's not slower by 50%. The real speed of the SNES cpu floats around ~3mhz (in fast mode. slow mode is strictly 2.68mhz) because of how the 65x architecture puts all the addressing vectors and data registers in zero page (or direct page as term is used on the '816). Instructions are made up of cycles and each cycle that touches main ram (work ram) is wait-stated down to 2.68mhz (rom fetch cycles are 3.58mhz if the rom is fast-rom). And even with the crippling 8bit data bus for the '816, the core of the processor is based on the 65x series which was very fast for instruction cycle times and the expansion to 16bit regs and math really give it a boost (not to mention some nice new instructions). From my tests, I'd put the performance around 70% of the MD CPU (disregarding a few advantages each processor has over the other in some cases). That being said, how do you have any idea of how much cpu resource any of these effects takes without any in depth knowledge of either system?Quote:
But I still can't imagine the 3.58MHz CPU running the VDP and still getting away with half of what we see with the 68K combo.Quote:
I guess why everyone forgets a lot of tricks and quirks of Megadrive VDP and give all the credit to M68K.
VDP isn't the piece of crap a lot of people thinks.
What... ??? Have we met? Did I bash the MD here? (hint: answer = no)Quote:
Tomaitheous overreacting against some MD achievement isn't a surprise either.
I agree. Probably the most impressive single effect I can think of on the MD. One can explain away how it's done and what not (which takes away from the achievement and 'magic'), but it's damn hard to get over the fact of what you're seeing on the screen. That's said, rotation is the most cpu intensive part of such an effect. Even using simple tables of X/Y deltas for indexing memory and dividing it into four regions, non linear reading like that takes up quite a bit of cpu resource. I wonder if they used pre-processed code (as least one commercial MD game does and it's ~700kbytes of rom space just for that alone!), as well as some self-modifying code tricks and such. Either way, I was impressed (as coder) and still am.Quote:
That Pier Solar mode 7 type stuff is very impressive. I have read that the problem when doing that on the Genny is that it takes a lot of cart space, is that true?, or a rumor?. If true, could a Mario Kart style game be done for the Genesis on a big cart, and if so, aproximately, how big would it have to be to aproach the quality of the original Super Mario Kart?
I'm willing to learn and be corrected. But being rude about it gets nowhere with me.
He probably knows that TA won't listen. I think by mentioning stuff to you he's complimenting your ability to actually listen to people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Even if i don't know the 65816 cpu as well as the 68000, regarding the limited instruction set, the limited clock speed and also regarding the complex memory map of the SNES, many different banks with many different speed with add many penalties here and there... I can easily say that there is no way of getting what Batman And Robin shows on the SNES. And that is really not a big assumption, as soon we know the SNES game library we can easily see that even best SNES games in this area can't even touch the quarter of effects or animations we have in BAR.
Do you really think the SNES can handle that much sprites with that complex schemes without slowdowns ?
Details as explosion particles animation is what we usually don't see on SNES, because of the weak CPU and probably sometime also because of hardware sprite limitation :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4TrYRPa2qk
Also see here the textured polygon rendering in real time, do you really think the 65816 cpu can do it as well without slowdown ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPkIpQAkX2w
I believe you underestimate the 68000 CPU or overestimate the 65816 (probably because it is really similar to the 6280 cpu).
The 65816 can be faster in some cases indeed, with very simple (and not repeated) 8 bits operations, and still due to its very low clock speed i am not even sure... but as soon you need heavy processing the 68000 will be far ahead, just because of its internal 16/32 bits structure and the large number of registers.
Just looks what we achieved to do in software on system like Atari or Amiga which are 68000 based... so that give an idea about what a 8 Mhz 68000 can do, and that is really really more than what a 3.57 Mhz 65816 can achieve.
I think that 70% of performance is really far from the true when it comes heavy processing, you have more way of optimizing your code on the 68000 than on 65816, mostly because of the large number of CPU, where you tend to only use them for complexe processing, the 68000 becomes pretty fast.
The bad Apple demo i made is an example as other, i am almost certain it *cannot* be done on SNES (and even on PCE which has a similar CPU but much faster) at the same level. Even if hardware can help by supporting 2bpp natively (unlike the sega genesis), the CPU has its importance and the 68000 is just way over the 65816.
Why do you think that SNES games cannot compress data as much as Genesis ones, why some games does even have "loading screen" !??! and generally why SNES games looks so much slow ans static compared to genesis ones again, do you really think that is only 30% horse power less ?