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I'm just not a fan of console add-ons, I'd prefer it with authentic PCE music.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
Project folder has been created on desktop. Though it could take months before I can start working on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
But right now I might enhance Mega Man's sprite with a 9-bit palette.
Wily Wars wasn't good enough? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
http://fantasyanime.com/museum/genes...ars_mm3_01.png http://fantasyanime.com/museum/genes...ars_mm2_03.png http://fantasyanime.com/museum/genes...ars_mm1_17.png
Naw, it looks like he has a pumpkin head. We could make his sprite look better than that.
I put together a video with a variety of PC Engine sound examples which you won't hear from actual PSG chips.
Everything was recorded from real actual hardware and was uploaded at >CD quality.
A lot of the instruments in that video sound PSGish BT, They sound like something out of a gameboy. Drums and bass are huge offenders. Compile's stuff, soldier blade. batman and (very) few other songs do not have that cloud of PSG sound on them.
Other than the drums (which really are PSG since they're done on an AY chip), this is how WSG does not sound like PSG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjpnGBALOGo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhg404vGork
Shame the PCE doesn't really have any soundtrack of this caliber excepting maybe stuff in Devil Crash.
Does the PC-Engine version of Snatcher not count?:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Ops, totally forgot about it. Yes it does, unfortunately the best songs on the game are Redbook on the PCE version (and the quality of the music on the PCE version is worse and half-assed at times).
Although it sounds like you didn't actually listen to much of the video, I wasn't posting overall music examples of stuff that just sounded good, it's showing some of the different kinds of sounds that PSG chips don't do. This is the mentality of people who can't appreciate PCE sound. A Mega Drive track can have SMS PSG front and center, but people who claim they hate SMS PSG (yet love NES PSG) will say it sounds good, but they'll hear a PCE track featuring a bunch of cool sounds and only focus on the one that reminds them of PSG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Soldier Blade is exactly the kind of soundtrack that PCE haters lable "NES". Batman also always fails to impress those people.
What do you mean by "this caliber"? It isn't that extrordinary composition-wise and is only special sound-wise if you judge strictly around what the MSX can do and exclude the kind of stuff it can't. I know in the past you gave examples of MSX WSG music that was supposed to be better than PCE because a tech spec said one aspect was superior, but actually listening to the tracks from each console, the PCE version sounded noticeably better.
Batman fails to impress because the music, despite all those fancy bass sounds, sounds flat, really really flat.
I meant by "this caliber" music that doesn't sound like it was composed with a gameboy in mind, which is what a lot of music on the PCE sounds like. Really the biggest offenders are the drums. If you put basic white noise drums on anything it'll sound PSG regardless of everything else. However, those MSX tracks are so "full" (it's hard to describe what I mean by "full", but if you can't hear it then I can't explain it either) that the *actual* psg drums they use are next to irrelevant. They are hidden behind the fullness of the songs so to speak.
Legend of Xanadu (the original specially) also manages to pull this off in some songs (track 20 is a great example). The Stage 4 song in Legendary Axe 2 does too.
These songs from LoX 2 are also far beyond PSG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n18lJg4AnrM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbRTg60csz0
City Hunter is another game that avoids the basic PSG sound quite well. Fiend Hunter, despite the awesome drums, is as PSG sounding as it gets. Maybe it's not just drums, there's something else at play.
The tiles and sprites aren't stored in 4bit pixel format in the rom (stored in the original 2bit format). Since the game uses chr-ram and not chr-rom, you can't just stored converted tiles/sprites in 4bit format. Since the game code is manually writing to vram, instead of requesting a vrom 'bank' change. Thus, you need to hack the games tile update engine (cause 4bit tiles are double in size). That and you need to update the palette updating routine as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
The hacking would be done as if it were an NES rom, since it's running the core NES rom code. The video and sound are emulated on the fly, but I did add provisions to the emulation to allow extended capabilities to the "NES" through emulation (unused bits in the sprite table to get PCE sprite features. Additional regs as ports in unused NES mapped memory to enabling additional features too. As well as a few pseudo commands like 'dma' to access extended VRAM of PCE as if it were additional hidden banks of vram on the NES). I actually started upgrading MM1 with 4bit sprite color and native PCE sprite sizes for the game, but it requires hacking a the original game code; converting the meta-sprite builder of the game for larger and less PCE sprites, proved to be tedious. Warn you a head of time, you have to know the NES pretty good to pull off this hack.
I looked through your youtube videos; nice! I wanted to do a short 'demo' for PCE. I have a few different sound engines in mind, for the demo. Would you be interested in composing some stuff for it? I'm looking for people that have experience with type of sound setup and have a talent for exploiting new and interesting instrument sounds. This demo would primarily be to show off sound/music first, with a bit of traditional demo art and graphics in running in the back ground. Nothing too showy. My job is now finally slowing down, that I have some free time to start coding again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raijin
tomaitheous you know about game dev. Is it just a hobby or a past and/or current career?
I eventually want to be a game dev. I want to be the Canadian version of Locomalito; I love his style of mimicking past hardware platforms.
Do you have any screen shots of the progress?Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
I wouldn't mind normally. Depends on the software I'd have to use. The only 2 things I know of to produce PCE music is MML and Deflemask. I don't know MML, and Deflemask is way too cumbersome for my tastes. Perhaps if there was a nicely coded, stand alone PCE tracker of some sort, and using it was easy with self explanitory features. I'm also not exactly a pro when it comes to making original material. I stumble a lot due to my own inability to come up with nice melodies, but dammit, I'd at least give it a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Your N163 cover of The Last Soul is one of the greatest covers I've heard Raijin. Expander too.
^ Holy Crap, Actraiser too. I sincerely hope you plan to do Level 2 sometime soon, that is one of my favorite Yuzo tunes and the SNES barely gets by with it.
He also totally nailed Boomer Kuwanger's theme.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-s7vJmwqjs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq8NYyffU70
SNES gets wrecked on this one.
I like the power/flexibility of MML, or rather the underlying engine... command string engine. But I like the structure of a tracker, since I'm old school (fast tracker 2 ftw!). I've written an MML-ish engine and script compiler, but I never use it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raijin
Instead, I use a hybrid format of command string and tracker format, mixed. That is to say, the layout is like that of a tracker format - but each entry can be limitless in parameters unlike a trackers fixed format. I.e. You can do more FX and such in a single entry than a typical tracker entry/slot. The down side, I don't have a nice GUI what-you-hear-is-what-you-get. It's text based, like so:
It looks a little cumbersome, but I have since switched over to using macros to make the text look more readable. Gx5 is note G# at octave 5, D.5 is note D at octave 5. That's a single channel of notes (as if you looked at a column for a single channel in a tracker pattern). Each channel has a pattern play list. The 'return' function is for variable pattern lengths, for compression reasons, but it's not needed. I.e. you can fix all your patterns to be of one size; say like 64 entries. The commas separate the FX/parameters for that note entry (the 'prefix' command allows you to link up a bunch of parameters for that entry). Like D.5, VolSet. | $20. Play note D.5 with manual volume setting. But like I said, I have a more improved human readable version that uses macros to make it look like text/script rather than data define statements.Code:Lead1:
.db Prefix.,06, ArpSet.,$CC, KeySet.,$01, ArpMode., ArpNoteTrig., PortaSet.,$0e, PortaStep.
.db _F.4
.db Arp_Key.
.db _F.4
.db F.4, VolSlideDown. | $40
.db _C.5
.db _C.5
.db _C.5
.db Arp_Key.
.db ArpStep.
.db ArpStep.
.db F.4, VolSlideDown. | $80
.db F.4, VolSlideDown. | $40
.db C.5, VolSlideDown. | $60
.db _F.4
.db _F.5
.db Prefix2., FineSlideVolDown.,$20, PortaStepDown. ;;Combo1 | VolSub | PortaSlideDown, $0e, $0e
.db _Dx5
.db F.5, VolSet. | $40
.db _Dx5
.db _Dx5
.db _C.5
.db _C.5
.db _C.5
.db Arp_Key.
.db ArpStep.
.db ArpStep.
.db _F.4
.db _F.4
.db _Dx5
.db _F.4
.db _F.5
.db Prefix2., FineSlideVolDown.,$20, PortaStepDown. ;;Combo1 | VolSub | PortaSlideDown, $0e, $0e
.db _D.5
.db F.5, VolSet. | $40
.db _D.5
.db D.5, VolSlideDown. | $80
.db _Ax4
.db _Ax4
.db _Ax4
.db Arp_Key.
.db ArpStep.
.db ArpStep.
.db RestLoop.,4
.db Prefix4., ArpMode., ArpDisable., PortaSet.,$09, Ax5,Porta | PortaNote, DirVolSet., $20
.db PortaStep.
.db PortaStep.
.db F.5, VolSet. | $60
.db Gx5, VolSet. | $20
.db Ax5, VolSet. | $60
.db F.5, VolSet. | $20
.db Gx5, VolSet. | $60
.db Dx5, VolSet. | $20
.db D.5, VolSet. | $20
.db Dx5, VolSet. | $60
.db Gx5, VolSet. | $20
.db D.5, VolSet. | $60
.db Prefix3., PortaSet.,$09, Dx5,Porta | PortaNote, DirVolSet., $20
.db PortaStep.
.db D.5, VolSet. | $20
.db Rest.
.db Return.
I used milky tracker to prototype the stuff I wanted, then manually wrote the text entries. The sound engine used for this:
Was modeled after milkytracker (the FX and how they react). But milky tracker is quite limited for making PCE music. Or rather, anything more complicated for instrument sounds. I like the idea of using multiple envelopes to control many aspects of sound (pitch, vibrato, tremolo, hard-sync, pan, waveform corruption, waveform updating, etc). Especially for 'macro' instruments. Those type of instruments that need macros on a per-note basis, etc.
I had originally worked on a XM to PCE converter/player:
But decided against it, since XM doesn't really play to the strengths of the PCE sound chip.
Hobby. And yeah, here's a video:Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
that includes sprite size upgrades. Creating larger sprite cells breaks the game, so I have to hack the game engine and hook my own sprite routine for it (cause the game uses meta-sprite tables to build out 8x8 cells into larger objects). I did that to help remove flicker. But if all that needs to be done is color upgrades, that's much easier to hack (i.e. won't break much in game).
Thats an awesome Mega Man sprite, i like it much better than the Rockman Mega World one.
I'm actually not that familiar with many trackers. Famitracker was my first tracker, and I have to say, for a tracker, I don't have a single complaint about it. It's very simple and straightforward to use, including all of the expansion sound. After that, I started using VGM Music Maker. I've only been making chiptunes since 2011, and those two trackers are the only ones I actively use. I am interested in other chips too, and I've tried Deflemask, but really, It's just too much. Too many bugs, too cumbersome like I said. It's just really breaks my pace of tracking too often. I also have Open MPT. I don't use it at all, I just have it for playing modules.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
As for MML, I'm simply not interested in learning it. I probably could with time, but I don't feel the need to bother.
Really though, if there was some trackers for specific hardware out there, I'd give it a shot. PCE, C64, even SNES. I just like the idea of trackers built specifically for the intended hardware because you get all of the things the specific hardware is capable of, not just a mess like I feel Deflemask is.
Its strange how they got some of those instruments so similar to the SNES version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
But yes, Genesis version remains on top.
That looks awesome, I love how his sprite looks when he gets hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Though I think if I was gonna port a Mega Man to the PCE, I'd write it from the ground up. Trying to work with the old source code just doesn't sound fun. But that means you gotta recreate all the physics, boss patterns, etc. and those aren't easily available.
Oh, and about my covers. People seem to like my cover of Boomer Kuwanger a lot. There's always some nitpick I have with my old covers such as that one though. In that video, the Orchestra Hit samples are way off pitch, and the PSG is a bit off as well. I'd probably want to adjust the volume balance as well. Still, it's one of my best old covers, I guess.
About it sounding similar to the original, it was actually pretty easy to get some of them to sound similar due to the nature of the track, having this synth beep and big synthy bass. FM typically has no problems with that kind of stuff. I also thickened the lead instruments with PSG, which was pretty effective. Also, I used Combat Cars drums, transforming the track into something different instead of following what the original does.
Anyway, I appreciate the nice words. I think I have improved a lot since then, or at least, I hope so.
Well . . . low quality sample synth . . . calling it "MIDI" is bad form and misinforms (back in 2009 I was misinformed in this area . . . calling silpheed's synth music MIDI :p . . . or no-streaming synth music in general).Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
You could do MIDI on pretty much any sound chip or soft synth format, and indeed there's quite a bit of MIDI based music on the MD, and MIDI drivers used with MT-32 and Adlib/SB FM synth cards (including general midi drivers).
So sample based synthesis is the better term really . . . "low quality" is vague but fairly applicable in the same manner you could call Amiga music "low quality" sample synth. (SPC and Paula have different limitations, and barring CPU-intensive software mixing, neither is really a clear winner overall . . . albeit if you strictly limit RAM use on Paula, things get more obviously favorable for the SPC module :p )
More specifically, saying "low quality CD music" really doesn't mean much since CD is streaming audio and can be ANYTHING. A compact casette is more like a low quality (analog) CD than the SNES. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Semi-professional synthesizer hardware, like some late 80s/early 90s MIDI modules, that WERE actually supported in many computer games could very well apply to pretty realistic examples of low-end (ie low budget) CD audio arrangements for game music at the time . . . and some CD based games did use that sort of music in-game or in cutscenes. (or similar music using professional/semi professional synthesizers and/or modules -or a mix of that and some acoustic instruments)
And in terms of SNES games that had music of a style and quality in that vein, there are much, much better examples than Yoshi's island. Castlevania X comes to mind immediately, in part because it occassionally uses better sounding arrangements than the CD based PCE Rodo of Blood counterpart.
See:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1F5527A711160ADF
vs:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL60B3A83F3AAC6E44
The stage 1 music in particular is nice to compare:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR0UjAQIX6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZAkrvbsrBs
Speaking of synth modules and computer games . . . and keeping with the Castlevania theme, check out these SC-88 and MT-32 recordings of Castlevania Chronicles on the X68000:
http://www.youtube.com/user/rerolledDK/videos
And the complete soundtrack using the MT-32:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list..._GpnM-ZPkzrrI6
So CD quality, or not? ;) (would have been neat if some arcade games had used the MT-32 hardware . . . or if Roland had made more integrated/lower cost versions later on -but I guess they were focused on Geneeral MIDI by that point)
(also note I'm refraining from embedding to cut down on super bloated flash plugin issues . . . worse still since there's no "stop download" option on YT anymore)
Thank you, so I'm not crazy; I knew I remembered reading that before. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
These are really neat, and yeah the N163 is interesting . . . some neat flexibility compared to what the PCE does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raijin
But going by: http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Namco_163_audio
It's 128 bytes, not 256, though it's 256 words since it seems to use 4-bit samples (each byte is 2 samples, more like the Game Boy).
With that in mind, did you mean 32 byte or 32-word waveforms, since 32 bytes would mean 64 samples in this context.
This also means the N163 has enough sample RAM for each of the 8 channels to use 32-nybble waveforms . . . and given you used all 8 channels, I assume you used that length. (of course, unlike the PCE, the programmable allocation of pattern memory would allow for longer or shorter samples, or fewer channels all with long waves -or using fewer, longer waves, with multiple channels using the same waveforms)
If you're going to list "DAC" on the MD, than note it on the PCE too. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Huh, wow, I hadn't realized how similar some of Metal Gear 2's music was to Polaracer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
http://battleofthebits.org/player/Entry/3617/
(instrument wise, not so much composition)
I wonder if irrlicht project was influenced by that. In any case, that AYM track sure is WSG-ish for pure AY8910. ;)
Another note on the N163 though, I don't remember it being dicussed before, but it seems like several Namco arcade boards are using that chip too, or something related to it. (listed as 8-channel 4-bit WSG or PSG and used on SUPER PACMAN, SYSTEM 16 UNIVERSAL, GAPLUS, Pac Land, System 86, System 1, Thunder Ceptor, )
Given that includes many boards that predate the famicom (or at least arrived early in its life), I assume those weren't using the N163 itself, but perhaps the sound logic from those older chips was later integrated with the mapper logic in the N163/N106.
Nope, because that is covered by all of the references to samples. I'm pretty sure the PCE doesn't have the timing issues the YM2612's DAC has anyway, I can't think of any reason to associate the two anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
The DAC is not having any issues, tis the stuff that puts stuff into the DAC that does :P
Fair enough. Either way, would you call the PCE's channels DAC or Sample Based Synth?Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
God guys I never said "literally", on the SNES low-quality CD music. I just meant that its closer to CD music than the Genesis and PCE are.
Its a sampler to me, I only call synths things that actually generate the sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Sorry, I made a mistake. Famitracker only supports 128 sample waves atm. The actual N163 is capable of 256 sample waves. Some N163 games, like Rolling Thunder for example, use 64 sample waves.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
By the way, Here's something you all may find interesting. Strobe made a track in Deflemask for the PC Engine that he has on Battle of the Bits. He has up to 5 channels playing Samples at once. In theory, this can probably be played on a real PCE no problem.
http://battleofthebits.org/arena/Ent...f+Luala/10359/
In what way (not counting the fact that both the Genesis and PCE have games with CD sound)?Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
Usage of "real" instruments I guess?Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
This is pretty close to it's CD counterpart:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LuFBlUNoRY
Yes the real, authentic samples that fuel the endless alpha egos of SNES fans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
Honestly I played a clarinet in high school, but otherwise I don't know much about audio. Audio is probably my weakest knowledge in video games. What are really the requirements for CD music?
does this qualify?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRyduAPorw0
Yeah, but if you take a game with a super synth-heavy CD soundtrack and then create a very "authentic" sounding synth track on the PCE or MD, what then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
No, I meant list the fact that the PCE's channels can be used in direct DAC mode for playing long samples with CPU assistance, very much like the DAC mode in the YM2612. And you have to sacrifice channels in both cases too. (or 2 channels if you want better than 5-bit PCM)Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Yeah . . . and the only things that make the PCE "better" is the timer interrupts, well, that and the ability to exploit the sample buffers to reduce overhead (you need to use 2 channels, double buffered, to avoid the "pop" on older chip revisions though . . . or 4 channels if you want 10-bit resolution -or anything more than 5-bit). That's not direct D/A mode though, but an exploit of the "normal" wave synth mode.Quote:
Originally Posted by TmEE
Well, that, and there's no DMA contention issues to halt CPU access to ROM, but technically the MD could do that too if you purely used the 68000 for VRAM updates. :p (which could indeed be practical for some games without the need for huge bursts of animation updates, and more so for H32 since the CPU is just as fast there, but DMA is slower)
Of course, that only actually matters for games that have sound engines good enough to avoid all the other pitfalls.
As far as I know, audio wise, CD-ROM audio is mostly defined by uncompressed 44.1Khz Digital Audio. The SNES can only put out 32Khz last I checked, and the Genesis' YM2612 can output anywhere from 48Khz-100+Khz. In a completely apples to oranges SNES samples versus Genesis FM+PSG comparison the later is "more CDA-Like" or even better while the former is inferior technically. That said I think the highest quality sample "MOD player" for the Genesis maxes out at 22.5 Khz, though many are sub 10Khz and still sound "okay", unless I forgot one.
That's most likely chiptunes being done with PCM samples. CD Audio is just that, Audio that's streamed off the CD the same way a CD player works. Quality wise it has to 16-bit stereo PCM at 44100 Hz. I don't think there's really any SNES game that does that level of quality with Chiptunes. There may be some Saturn and PS1 games that do it at the chip tune level, but again it's doubtful.Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
Here's a good comparison:
CD Audio:
Chip Generated PCM (Saturn MIDI):
There's a distinct drop in clarity and crispness in the overall sound and instrument quality. Some instruments sound close (Winds, String Bass, etc.) where as others sound rather synthy (Most Strings, voices, drums, etc.). That's not to say it sounds bad, but it's certainly not CD quality.
There's also the synthesizer tracks in the first Panzer Dragoon, but those are still CD Quality, and they still sound a lot crisper and cleaner than any of Zwei's tunes:
Does that clear things up a bit? Simply put, even the best SNES games don't sound anywhere close to CD Audio in overall quality. They all suffer from the low muffled and muddy sound that's distinct to the SNES audio chip. The only time you will ever hear a CD sound like an SNES game is when that CD is the soundtrack of an SNES game.
I'm almost certain that Tiido has stated numerous times that the YM2612's max output is 56KHz. So I don't know where you got the 100+KHz from but I don't think that's correct. So while yes KHz wise that's above the Redbook Audio standard, it's doing that mostly with FM Synth and PSG, not PCM. I don't think there's any game out there that does any PCM samples near that quality. Even Tiido's wav player only does 26 KHz mono audio.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Well, in marketing terms . . . and as was used to promote quite a few consoles/computers (and sound cards) in the early 90s, "CD quality" sound often just referred to 44.1 kHz 16-bit stereo output, or sometimes just 44.1 kHz stereo of lesser resolution.Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
In the strictest terms, the MD and PCE both pass that as the sample rates of their synthesizers are both beyond 44.1 kHz, thus CD recordings would actually lose some quality (technically) compared to the ideal raw output of those chips. (of course, low bitrate PCM samples on PCE or MD are another story)
In terms of actual aesthetic appraisal of "CD quality sound" is another story entirely, and totally subjective. :p
Oh, but on the technical note of 44 kHz PCM, the PCE is ahead of the SNES and MD there since neither can go that high. SNES's SPC unit uses 32 kHz output, but I seem to recall that actual sample playback was limited to 16 kHz (intrpolated up to 32 kHz), and the MD is limited to ~26 kHz before you start missing DAC writes (and it's 8-bit PCM).
The PCE has no such DAC speed limitations, and 44.1 kHz 10-bit stereo streaming PCM playback is quite possible . . . ADPCM decoding to that is also possible, but either case is going to use massive amounts of space. ;) (and ADPCM decoding at those rates is fairly CPU intensive too)
Doing MOD players at that sample rate should be somewhat possible too, but the overhead involved would make it unattractive for games. At more modest rates, doing that in games could be fairly realistic.
Actually the flexiblity of software PCM playback on the PCE is an isse I've argued for the PCE CD too, particularly that its ADPCM chip is rather unnecessary compared to potential for software PCM and ADPCM playback (expecially with most games using CD music, so samples for SFX mostly -or stereaming PCM for cutscenes). Using a unified 128 kB of RAM rather than 64k+64k would have been much more flexible and useful in general. (the actual quality of most ADPCM on the PCE CD is pretty mediocre too -so much that 4-bit PCM alone would often be competitive, plus you're stuck with 1 channel and no potential for software mixing)
A much better addition would have been some sort of DMA engine (or a primitive blitter) for faster VRAM updates added to the super CD, and less CPU time spent on that (more for sound and other stuff), that is id the VDP I/O ports are addressible through the expansion port. (I'm pretty sure the entire address space is exposed, so that should have been possible)
On a related note, here's a demo with mono ADPCM at 20 kHz and 33.5 kHz with 10-bit output on the PCE engine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdWYOHPV6Uw
Oh, and if you're wondering how low quality MOD players could sound on the PCE just using basic 5-bit PCM output at 7 kHz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLhFbwS3tNc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvwQ0q6Xr54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6_HvykkFKI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRl-A8uTkxE
Considering the lack of specific optimization of samples for that, and the low res and sample rate being used, that's not too bad.
The PCEngine can do ADPCM decoding from the CPU? I thought we had established in another thread that the Saturn's 68000 derivative Sound CPU was incapable of ADPCM. I must have missed something.
I could have sworn the YM2612's output frequency was 1/144 of the input clock iirc. So the YM2612 on the MD would be 7.6 or 7.67 /144 = ~52.8 or ~53.3 kHz. (iirc, PC sound cards use a 7.16 MHz clock, hence the "ideal" emulation setting in DOSBox being 49.7 kHz -ie 7160/144)Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Also, Tiido's sound driver (TMSE) is limited to ~23 kHz for its 2 channel unpacked 7-bit PCM playback. His waveplay engine does 26 kHz, and could do much more (he had it going over 44 kHz at one point), but the DAC port is slow on the YM2612 and starts getting missed writes around 26 kHz. (I think some people on spritesmind mentioned managing a bit higher than that, but not reliably across multiple consoles)
I don't know if it's the 68k doing it, but the Saturn can definitely decode ADPCM. That's what just about every game that's not using CD Audio, ADX, or MIDI Sequences uses. Street Fighter Zero 3 I know uses this on the Saturn as it's stamped right on the case that it uses the IMA ADPCM Algorithm.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
However the SCSP cannot accept compressed audio samples, audio has to be decompressed in RAM first if I remember correctly.
I knew it was somewhere around the mid to low 50's. I probably misremembered it and got the 6 from the 26KHz limit. Still though, It's definitely not in the 100+ range.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
It's the SCSP's DSP that's unable to decode compressed samples, the 68EC000 is just slow and limited as such. It can (and quite often does) do a few channels of ADPCM, but there's no way you're going to do all 32 channels or 24 (like General midi and the PSX) of ADPCM.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
The SCU DSP or an SH2 would be much more capable at ADPCM decoding though. (or other formats)
The Z80 in the MD is perfectly capable of decoding ADPCM streams too, to a limited extent. (4-bit ADPCM shouldn't really be more CPU intensive than the CVSD Chilly Willy's demos use . . . perhaps more than TADPCM though)
4-bit DPCM is much more common in actual MD games though, and it's what SMPS uses. (and what Stef's sound driver uses)
My 100Khz top range was from a discussion I lost over at spritesmind while asking if there was any way to use an oscillator to compare the audio outputs between platforms. My bookmarks are failing me once again, but the comparison was absolutely apples to oranges and somebody said that Genesis FM could hit above 100Khz. I was only mentioning that to show that "CD Quality" is in fact subjective and wildly variable when it comes to chip tunes.