Zelda II is actually playable without unavoidable hits and trial and error. Zelda II is easily the best Zelda game.
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Zelda II is actually playable without unavoidable hits and trial and error. Zelda II is easily the best Zelda game.
I tend to stay away from these arguments. Mostly because they're usually fueled by fanboi-ism, general hate, or whatever past disgruntled memories (on either side). But that statement reeks of retardedness. I'm just gonna assume you're just being sarcastic (trust me, it's better that way).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lync
Side note: Never cared much for Yoshi's island. Actually, I was never a big yoshi fan despite liking SMW. I'm glad the boss fights in that game didn't involve yoshi, I liked the first four SMB games (SMB1,2USA,3,World), thought they were all great, but I was never a 'mario' fan. Never had stickers, or dolls, or shirts, or posters, or whatever. Other than SMB2USA, I was never excited or anticipated the next mario release. They came out, if I liked them - then I liked them. Simply as that.
The original SMW is pretty ace, for the most part (some later levels are a drag). It's a down right fun game, if you didn't *hate* mario because you were strictly a sega fan. The overworld map system, borrowed from SMB3, was a great idea. So was unlock alternate paths and such.
But posting level layouts doesn't show off anything really. Same with Sonic. Sonic was amazing when it came out. It was different, it was pure fun, it was polished, etc. I think it's a secret to everyone, that Sonic games on the Genesis specifically focus on the excitement of speed and rushing through the course. That's not say that there aren't parts that require you slow down and explore, or etc. Similar to a SMW, but definitely not its equal in that department. It gave Sonic games just enough variety to break up the run and rush parts, IMO. SMW on the other hand, also has levels that blaze through (you do have a run button in Mario games). Some levels are designed specifically for that. Does it compare equally to Sonic in those areas? Not-even-close. Why? Because these are *TWO* different games. If you trying to reshape these games into something that are directly comparable, then you've already FAILED before you begun.
Haha, yes, I cringed a bit myself when I made that post as I frolicked along the edge of fanboyism (if that is a word) - but the first three, or four if you are including the Lost Levels, were never appealing to me; but I think it is also because they were games just before my time, so it's like when my Grandmother yells at me because I don't know who Lawrence Welk or Susan Hayward was. I missed that era, I certainly appreciate it but also don't necessarily like it either as I had by then been spoiled by the newer levels based on that foundation respectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomaitheous
Super Mario World is fantastic, I will absolutely raise no arguments there and am not going to compare Sonic as I find it as silly as apples or oranges, etc.
But I will be as so dastardly to say that Donkey Kong Country sucks... :p
I have always been a Sega fan, but i have always loved the Mario games too. All from Super Mario Bros, up to Super Mario World, with Super Mario USA being my all time favorite. I didnt get to play Yoshis Island much, and kinda dont like 3d platformers, so i missed Super Mario 64, but from what i have palyed of them, they are both great games too.
Apples and oranges, Sonic is a arcade-oriented game, Mario is slower and takes a lot more time to beat. Yes.
But considering that, its funny that I beat Mario World way before I beat Sonic 2. Damn Metropolis Zone.
I was thinking more on how Square's stuff didn't get published . . . but you're probably right, I'm pretty sure this came up before, come to think of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christuserloeser
All of those are cop-out excuses. Both the SNES and MD versions use really low quality samples . . . and that's not addressing the absolute crap quality playback the MD verson STILL had after another 2 years and for a relatively high-end production (the largest ROM size on the console).Quote:
My guess is that SSF2 on MD uses that extra room for the voice samples. SNES supports ADPCM so there's some really powerful compression (for the time) to save tons of space on cartridge + better overall sound quality on top of that. Among other things this is the result of those decent decompression and playback capabilities of the SNES' sound chip, again saving on cartridge space in comparison to something of similar quality without those capabilities on the hardware side.
Squeezing in lots of speech samples into a tiny cartridge clearly is one of the SNES' advantages in comparison to the MD. Well and that it was somewhat idiot proof to pull off, it seems. At least even the best Japanese devs struggled with that on MD.
Capcom's console programming was mediocre in general . . . at least on the MD (but arguably on contemporary Nintendo stuff), and this issue came up before . . . and was argued in greater detail by the actual programmers on here. (including making the point on how the PCE game likely benefitted by NOT being developed by capcom)
As to the actual technical issues:
Again, both used pretty low quality samples for SFX/speech, pretty much the same as the older games.
The SNES has some major disadvantages for streaming samples in the 64 kB RAM limit and slow/awkward mechanism for updating it. (limited, slow, and somewhat diffucult to program for streaming samples)
The compression really is pretty mediocre too, and for the bitrates in question, and the crap quality actually achieved, using 4-bit linear PCM (the laziest and simplest compression possible on the MD), you'd achive HIGHER compression ratio than the SNES, ie lower bitrate at the same sample rates. (and at low bitrates, 4-bit is actually better than 8-bit PCM or ADPCM . . . the thresholod depends on the specific sound, though)
Remember, SPC sample compression is effectively 1.778:1 over 8-bit (3.56:1 over 16-bit), effectively 4.5 bits per sample. (specifically it's 9 bytes for 16 samples, with that being composed of 1 byte using 4-bits for filter information and 4-bit delta definition value followed by 8 bytes containing 16 4-bit delta values and aside from the filter, it's actually simpler to decode than standard ADPCM or CVSD -it's actually a little like Tiido's TADPCM, except that uses 8-bits for the definition followed by 12 2-bit samples and no filter . . . and aside from the filter, and having an effective 2.67 bits per sample rather than 4.5)
Beyond that, the Z80 and quite easily handle ADPCM, or (more commonly) DPCM as was in common use from about 1990 onward. (that's one of the notable features of SMPS, 4-bit DPCM playback) And for 8-bit output, DPCM is pretty competitive with ADPCM, actually easier to optimize in some respects. (particularly for encoding/decoding natively for 8-bit PCM, not using higher res and then clipping down to 8-bits) Uncompressed 8-bit PCM will sound better of course (better than what the SNES does too) if you can afford the bitrates, which quite a few games do, and ironically many of those are pretty small. (several 1 MB games like Vapor Trail using 16 kHz 8-bit PCM, higher bitrates than anything on the SNES)
Then consider that the SNES also needed samples for music and pretty much had to use uncompressed graphics if you didn't want an add-on chip or noticeably lengthy load times.
The MD game used 5 MB to the SNES versions 4 MB, but even had it been 4 MB, a remotely reasonably optimzied late gen MD game should have had:
-at least some degree of compressed graphics, taking advantage of the nice chunky pixel tile format and the CPU resource, thus allowing noticeably better quality animation and detail than the SNES version (note that using less dithering and a lower threshold for dithering -and only using checkerboard/2-pixel dither pattersn all contribute to improved compression ratio . . . no dither at all would be best, but obviously make color optimization tougher)
-maybe optimize the game to use mode H40, some compromise for graphics/animation there though (at 5 MB, this should have been much easier)
-much better quality PCM playback, both in terms of even/non-garbled playback and better quality samples (Capcom's driver is among the sloppiest on the console, and ne of the few 68k based drivers to actually make PCM playback WORSE rather than freeing Z80 programming complexity to improve PCM playback without really good Z80 coding -software mixing or interleaving 2 channels of 4 or 8-bit PCM at ~8 kHz should have been totally reasonable, 2-channel 4-bit DPCM should have been totally doable too, and at 8 kHz, probably better sounding than 4-bit PCM; and that sort of thing should have been easily possible using simple timer polling for PCM timing, like GEMS does -especially if it's a 68k driver, which GEMS is not)
And have decent (if not really nice) sampled percussion for music . . . even with 8 kHz 8-bit PCM, you could do some OK stuff, certainly vastly better than the FM crap they used or the weak PCM in SCE, and probably better than the SNES's percussion too. :p (or better than the CPS-1 arcade version, given that's limited to ~7.5 kHz 4-bit ADPCM iirc)
Better use of FM instruments wouldn't have hurt either . . . the ones they used were mostly OK at least, some were weak, but, again, the volume used in many tracks is totally unbalanced and some do just have weak instruments. (thin/tinny and/or just grating)
And even short of actual reasonably good optimization for a MD game, at least a semi-competent, average quality late-gen MD programming (especially for a relatively high-end game with a lot of ROM), it should have been significantly better than what there is now.
I really can't stress this though: the SNES's sound compression was not impressive, and both the PCE and MD were perfectly capable of compression of fairly competitive (if not superior) formats. The actual sound system on the SNES is impressive in other areas, but it's certainly better looking on paper than in reality. (and wasteful, unnecessarily expensive, and bottlenecked, both due to hardware limits and documentation)
I really, really don't see it. The arrangements are weak to competent at best, and instruments are OK, but the volume/mixing is way off at times, and the percussion is absolutely horrible (even compared to the mediocre samples in SCE) . . . it's better than the shitty OPL2 rendition on the DOS game, but that's about it. :pQuote:
Again, I think the music in SSF2 on MD is excellent. If that same music was used in a shooter people would praise it for its excellence. But as it is, buried in those awful bottom of the barrel low fi voice samples, it gets tons of flag.
The other problem you mentioned (256x224 vs 320x224) surely was a decision for economical reasons. They obviously worked with the original SF2 SNES resources for all console ports as all three mainstream consoles at the time supported this resolution. Redoing everything from scratch in 320x224 just for MD probably would have meant to increase the cost dramatically and likely would have delayed the game for roughly another year.
So yeah, while it would have been nice to have a more dedicated port in that regard, it would have been very stupid for Capcom not to do it the way they did.[/QUOTE]
It's not really a "Zelda" game in that sense though . . . which is probably why a lot of its fans aren't as big of fans of the more traditional 2D zelda format.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
I love the gameplay style in the original Zelda, the overhead view, control, game mechanics, dungeon system, overworld combat, etc. I'm not nearly as big a fan of sidescrolling action-adventure or action-RPG style games by comparison, and likewise, I'd tend to favor games built on the 4-directional overhead view adventure games or action-RPGs over most sidescroller counterparts. And that leaves a HUGE amoung to variables in what either of those sub-genres can offer or develop into, of course, on the SNES/MD you've got things ranging from Beyond Oasis, to Link to the Past, to Secret of Mana, to Crusader of Centy, etc.
That and, of the sidescrolling action-adventure games out there, Zelda II doesn't rank so high on my "like" list, either in gameplay or aesthetics (or general "fun"). Something like Popful Mail is a lot more interesting and fun . . . probably some of the Monster World games too. (IV especially, though I haven't gotten that far yet . . . on a long list of to-do games :p )
That and, if you include the metroid games (or metroid-like) games in action-adventure sidescrollers, those easily win too, over Zelda II . . . though I don't like them as much as some do. (well, I think it's more that I'm just not that great at them and they're not forgiving enough in the areas of platforming I'm not that great at)
Xexyz also comes to mind in this context . . . really interesting game with better look and feel than Zelda II, and while I totally suck at it (for similar reasons to Metroid -if not more so), I do find it fun with all things considered.
OTOH, most of those are later games, and who knows what a later, more polished evolution of the Zelda II format might have led to. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have liked it nearly as much as LTP, but that's not to say it would have been technically worse. (what might have been even more interesting would have been tactfully moderated use of some sidescrolling sections in LTP)
Hmm, don't the Legend of Xanadu games actually do that kind of thing? (complex, detailed, expansive overworlds with combat, but then sidescrolling action sections too)
I didn't really grow up with Sonic . . . well sort of with the S&K collection on PC in the late 90s (well the demo, and then the game much later), but I did grow up with the SNES in the mid/late 90s, and SMW was never one of my favorites. It's a good mario game, but I'd never praise it for depth or style compared to the best of the 2D Sonics.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
Sonic 3&K in particular is just awesome fun all around, looks, sound, gameplay, exploration, fairly forgiving difficulty yet a good amount of challence if you really want to push it (and 100% the game).
Yoshi's island is a MUCH better game than SMW though . . . the look/feel/sound is something some get turned off by (I love that though), but the actual game mechanics and level design (and animation, graphics, and effects) just blow SMW away. Much more variety, less flat/boring levels, more exploration (if not as many branching paths like some Sonic stuff), challenging yet also more forgiving in some respects (I much prefer the hit/health mechanics to traditional mario, and in some ways getting hit and having to grab mario is like losing and collecting rings in Sonic -time lost and star/timer collection is somewhat similar too). That and the sheer size of the game, the variety of imaginative bosses, etc.
The control seems more precise (less slippery than typical mario), and the hover jump makes it more forgiving too.
My younger brother (who's MUCH better at 2D platformers than me) has similar thoughts on both those games too . . . I put S3&K on a similar level as YI and both are top-teir late-gen titles of the "16-bit" era. It's hard to overlook nostalgia in terms of subjective likes though, and I definitely have more of that towards YI, which is why it tends to edge over as my favorite 16-bit platformer. (maybe my favorite 2D platformer in general)
Compared to other 2D marios, it looks better, it sounds better, controls better, feels better, it's more interesting, and just more fun to play.
Unfortunately, I can't say the same for any of the sequels or follow-ups to Yoshi's Island. (then again, I don't think you can really say the same for any of Sonic 3&K's 2D "successors")
Oh Dear God what is this GAME FAQ's and games quality based on speed runs ? . Well looking over that and the fact that Sonic it self can be done in 15 mins or less speed runs . I'll just say that Speed Run or your (read someone else pics) don't show the 96 worlds, don't show the levels being complete with the yellow, Red switches and so on . Mario IV is a far bigger and deeper game than Sonic or Sonic 2 . It took Sonic until Sonic CD and Sonic 3 to get some much needed depth into the Sonic games . To me the likes of Revenge of Shinobi, Quackshot were much better platform games than any of the 16 bit Sonic'sQuote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
And its becoming quite tiresome always seeing you linking someone else's videos or screens. How about you uploading a video of you completing Mario IV in 15 mins , or hell just uploading a video of you playing a real classic console would be breaking a habit of a life time ;):D
And imo the Saturn and PS had better colours and sound to that of the N64 . Every console will have it's plus and minus points .Quote:
The SNES has way nicer colours and sound. Why did Sega release a console with such mediocre hardware?
Well its always will be subjective but ...Quote:
Mega-CD racers? show me
F1 - Beyond the Limit - At the time the deepest and most comprehensive racing sim on a console
Jaguar XJ220 - Great racer with a top sound track and great 2 player mode and even a nice level editor
BC Racer - a half decent and fun racer (but it could have been a lot better)
Batman Returns - The best 16 bit Racer ever imo. Not only were the graphics and sound leagues above what any console around at the time could handle , it also had the classic Arcade check point racer like mega tight time limits and difficulty .
To me its overrated pap -Well like all the Zelda games really . Give me LandStalker and The Story of Thor any day of the week.Quote:
Zelda II is easily the best Zelda game
I did not say the game's quality was based on speed runs. You said that Sonic games were easier, yet Super Mario World can be beaten in real time in about 10 minutes without any tool assistance. If the game was truly more challenging wouldn't it take longer to beat? Sonic can't be beaten in under 15 minutes unless you cheat with the level select cheat or edit mode cheat. Sonic takes about 25 minutes to play through completely give or take a few minutes. Super Mario World may have more levels, but they are shorter and simpler. And the real number of worlds is closer to 75 in Super Mario World. About 20 of those 96 are left over beta and test levels, are unused, or are used for the Star Road and aren't really levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Why should I waste my time to upload my own videos just to make you happy when I can easily just use someone else's video that's already uploaded as an example?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
But if it really REALLY bothers you, here are some videos I've uploaded that were recorded off my real systems:
There, is that better? Or are you still so convinced that I own nothing and feel the need to call my collection into question?
I haven't played it much, but The Battle of Olympus on NES looks like a suped up Zelda II to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by kool kitty89
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v85ZFpd_RAE
I like Zelda II, while admitting that I cannot get into it anymore, because of the side scrolling action particularly the sword and shield fights against knights. That alone was such a fluid, learnable, masterable, gameplay aspect that it just sucked me in and I became obsessed with leveling up. Having the upgrades include new sword strikes or moves in the air and whatnot just sealed the deal for me. If Chakan had this aspect in any way I would love that game even with the cheap unavoidable hits and generic level designs.
When Zelda II was released I had owned a Master System for over a year and had already experienced a number of "sequels" come off as completely original games. I actually saved up to buy my NES for the original Zelda game, after beating Golvellius I was obsessed with Zelda. I could only find Adventures of Link in stores and really never even looked for the original after that.
I think I was always more interested in pure Beat-em ups and side scrolling Action-Platformers, and definitely Rail Shooters than I was in overhead Adventure games though. Once the Genesis came out it was these three genres, and the odd Racer and RPG, or nothing for me.
Bit better , but just a handful of game intro's and no vids of you playing the games Maybe we need to do a bit better and watch less of Star Trek TNG :)Quote:
But if it really REALLY bothers you, here are some videos I've uploaded that were recorded off my real systems
Sonic 1 and II are easy to finish and much simple games and at the time SEGA took a hit for how easy they were to finish .Quote:
You said that Sonic games were easier
If you want to see all the 96 levels and unlocked the switches ect you'll not be doing that in 10 or 15 min's and funnily enough in your video he doesn't . There's speed runs of Demon Souls , Prime or the Likes of Ninja Gadien games that are hard to finish; Just because a top class gamers player can whip through them, doesn't not detract from their quality or the time it would take most people to finish them. Just look at Saga one of the best RPG's ever made , but I bet in a speed run it come 2nd best to the likes of FF 7 , doesn't mean FF 7 is the better game at allQuote:
If the game was truly more challenging wouldn't it take longer to beat
You got any more GAME FAQ's points , what next sales , metric scores ?
Again why should I waste my time uploading videos just to make you happy? I have better things to do than upload 100's of videos of myself playing games which already have plenty of high quality videos uploaded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
How did Sega take a hit? They were some of the best selling games on their system. And how are the games more simple and easy to finish? Why don't you explain and back up your claims for once. The levels in Sonic are much more complex and overall longer than Super Mario World. How does that make the game simpler and easier?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I didn't say taking less time to beat makes it a better or worse game, I simply brought that up to counter your claim that Sonic was easier. You're again not reading. I didn't say beat the game with 100% completion, I said simply beat the game without cheat codes. With that criteria, Sonic is going to take longer to beat. And again that speed run I posted isn't even the world record, it's an average run using real hardware. The point wasn't about what top class speed runners can do, it was the fact that Mario legitimately let's you skip 90% of the game and win, Sonic doesn't. Therefore Mario is the easier game to complete. Hell Labyrinth Zone alone is more difficult than any level in Super Mario World.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I didn't say the entire game's quality is based on speed runs. That was a ridiculous conclusion you came to.
I just want to say that this is literally the first time I've heard anyone even remotely insinuate that Zelda II is overrated (to your credit you do qualify that you feel that all zelda games are overrated...but still)Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Personally, i really like Zelda II, better then its predecessor (though I like Zelda 3 the best of any of them).
I hope you're excluding the Special Zone in Mario World.Quote:
Hell Labyrinth Zone alone is more difficult than any level in Super Mario World.
Oh dear god! It's becoming really tiresome seeing Team Andromeda always linking to videos and pics taken from other people's games. Heaven forbid he should make some games of his own for the consoles he insists on discussing.
Relevant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-jhSjft_lM
Really wish the programmers making pirate games were as good at sound programming as they are with visuals.
That actually looks pretty good...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
and it sounds rancid.
The graphics look downgraded to 9-bit, and not optimized for 9-bit. Mario fans will continue to mock the Genesis for colour.
This drum channel sounds PCM:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo-jt_PItzU
Thats not possible with FM is it?
Most MD/Gen drums are PCM. Have you not been paying attention?
Nope, haven't been paying attention. I guess thats the first drum channel to catch my attention.
Well that's clever since I have't linked any videos or pictures from other people, I'll think you might find that's someone elseQuote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
In the reviews, the press would always comment how easy SEGA games were to finish and how they lacked depth; One of the reasons why latter SEGA games were insanely hard to finish .Quote:
How did Sega take a hit?
Well then stop calling me out and always asking me to provide prof scans or videos ..Quote:
I have better things to do than upload 100's of videos of myself playing games which already have plenty of high quality videos uploaded.
Well on that score you fail . Just because you can complete a game quicker does not make that game easier . There's speed runs of Contra Hard corps being done in less that 8 mins - You 're going to make out that game is easy to finish ?Quote:
, I simply brought that up to counter your claim that Sonic was easier
And in the interest of fairness for any true and fair comparison you'll have to have the exact same player, playing each different game their selfs and only that person .
Well tbh I've never played the NES Zelda's . I've played the rest and never been impressed - They're vastly overratedQuote:
I just want to say that this is literally the first time I've heard anyone even remotely insinuate that Zelda II is overrated (to your credit you do qualify that you feel that all zelda games are overrated...but still)
He didn't say you did, you might want to go back and read more carefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Because a few old magazine articles are clearly the ultimate opinion of the universe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I didn't call you out to provide scans. I asked you in the 5th gen thread to show an example of what you were talking about because you had completely failed to explain what the hell it was you were talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Again, you've missed the point. It wasn't about the exact speed run time, it was about the fact that in Super Mario World you can skip 90% of the game and beat it. Something you can do in just about ANY 2D Mario game. I can casually zip through Mario 1 on the NES in about 5-6 minutes. Mario 3 might take me a bit longer but that's because I really enjoy that game and usually complete the first world before I start using the warp whistles to get to the end and win. If I really cared and wanted to I could probably breeze through Super Mario World too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Sonic you can't do this, you can't just skip the levels you don't like unless you enter the level select cheat. In Sonic I am forced to go through a zone like Labyrinth zone regardless of if I want to or not. That makes it harder.
As for Contra Hard Corps, again you need to look at the type of speed runs. Those 8 minute ones are TOOL ASSISTED. The one I linked of Super Mario World is a real time speed run with no tool assistance. How about this, instead of just saying "Super Mario World is more difficult because myself and some old magazines say so" why don't you actually state why you think it's more difficult with actual examples from the game?
Really ?Quote:
He didn't say you did, you might want to go back and read more carefully
Quote:
Oh dear god! It's becoming really tiresome seeing Team Andromeda always linking to videos and pics taken from other people's games. Heaven forbid he should make some games of his own for the consoles he insists on discussing.
I guess he was being ironic and at the risk of being ironic myself , maybe you need to read more carefully ?
In those days the written press was king. SEGA Europe took a lot of flak when it tried to control reviews and only allowed magazines to play games in its HQ instead of sending out review copies to the press.Quote:
Because a few old magazine articles are clearly the ultimate opinion of the universe
You do and even when I scan in the interview with the Burning Rangers team saying the Saturn couldn't do Hardware 3D transparent effects you dismissed it . You're more than quick enough to ask when it suites you.Quote:
I didn't call you out to provide scans
I love to see your average play do that . Speeds runs do not prove at all if a game is any easier to play do not show a game true depthQuote:
Super Mario World you can skip 90% of the game and beat it
So we're on to the NES now ? . Love how we try and change it .Quote:
I can casually zip through Mario 1 on the NES in about 5-6 minutes
There's tons of Speed Run games where players are playing the real deal and beating games in less than an hour, that would take most people days to finish. Speed runs are more about proving a game player skills and bragging points than about a game difficulty or quality.Quote:
As for Contra Hard Corps, again you need to look at the type of speed runs. Those 8 minute ones are TOOL ASSISTED
Sonic is more simple and so simple even a child can play it (with just its left and right and 1 button control) It one of the reasosn why it sold so good , was the fact that adults and children alike could play it . Compared to trying to get to see all the 96 levels in Mario and collect all the secrets Sonic 1 and II were far simpler , it really took untill Sonic 3, Sonic CD for that to change and then I've seen Speed Runs on Sonic CD being done super fast even with the Mega CD piss poor loading times . That to me proves nothing other than the skill of the person playing the gameQuote:
Sonic you can't do this, you can't just skip the levels you don't like unless you enter the level select chea
He didn't say you were posting other people's pics or videos, he said you were posting pics and videos of other people's games and was mocking you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Oh well? It doesn't mean what they said in a review are absolute facts. Reviews back then hold about as much water as they do now, little to none.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Once again that was another situation of you not reading or listening to what people were telling you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
The speed run I posted above was somewhat average play through. Again, move beyond the fact that it was a speed run. You're too fixated on that one point to see the big picture here. The point is that you can skip 90% of the game and win, not how fast it takes you to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Not trying to change it, just bringing up more examples of how the 2D Marios in general are pretty easy and simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Again you're too fixated on the idea of a speed run and are missing the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
So good controls now make a game easy? What about level design? Boss design? Enemy Design? Gameplay Design? Do all those mean nothing? Getting all 96 exits (exits, not worlds), in Super Mario World isn't harder than beating Sonic, it's simply more time consuming. So who's using time it takes to do something to define difficulty now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I walked in on this topic (again) late (again), and I'm too lazy right now to read posts and play catch up, but I just did a quick glance and...well...am I bugging out or did I just read a post alluding to Super Mario World of all games being "difficult"?
Tell me that wasn't actually stated by someone ITT. Please.
Okay, just did a more fuller run through (not as lazy as I first thought), and no one stated SMW was difficult. Thank goodness for that. My faith in humanity is somewhat restored.
That said, some issues:
Super Metroid isn't a platformer. Platforming is part of the gameplay design, but not the focus. It's action/adventure, same as LoZ, but with platforming added onto the "action" side of things.
lol @ SNES Castlevania games. Super/IV has had its faulty design exposed for some time now. Of the Classicvania games, Rondo, Bloodlines, and III are leagues better. The less said about SNES Dracula X the better.
IMO, Super Mario World is not a top tier platformer of that gen. Sonic 1 was the better game, as were DKC2 and Ristar; S3&K was much better, and Yoshi's Island even moreso (note the conspicious absence of Sonic 2 Genesis and Sonic CD; there's a reason for that). SMW falls out of top tier status for the same reason as Super Castlevania did: it has design flaws that seemingly go against design intent, and when they don't they just make the game far too easy. In SCV the culprit was the whip, in SMW the culprit is the cape. Not a top ranking platformer of that gen (top 20? Maybe. Top 10? Hell no.), not even a top tier platformer in its own series at that point (SMB3 and SMB2 USA were both better, and more tightly designed, games). Good game, not great. Still one of the best launch games ever, though, but very much a launch game.
I bet most people go nuts over Castlevania IV, just because of how easy it is. Controlling characters with stiff jumping, has already been burned into my brain.
The 8 directional whip in CV IV is it's biggest weakness in my opinion (makes the sub-weapons useless), that and the "Mode-7" stage. Everything else about the game is top notch.
Of the original Sonic games I re-played Sonic 2 and Sonic CD the most by far. I prefer the level designs of Sonic 1 to any other Sonic game, but I simply did not enjoy playing the game as much as Sonic 2 or Sonic CD. I would even go so far as to say that Sonic CD's level designs felt generic to me in comparison to Sonic 1, and I still played it more.
Super Mario World, yeesh, that game just cannot even begin to amuse me in any way. The theme and music are just way too "nursery" for me even back then. Mario 3 stretched my tolerance for Mario games to the limit already. Good ole StarMist (RIP?!) insisted that I would enjoy Yoshi's Island though so I have been trolling ebay for a deal ever since last January.
I would take Actraiser over any SNES Castlevania.
Rightfully so, although the sim parts have completely lost all of their charm to me. Now I just find them an annoyance. They're too limited to be interesting, and too long to be just a distraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Not but its all about PR Rep and image and in those days SEGA platform games has an image of being simpler and lacking depth to Nintendo titles - not always but enough for SEGA to take note and try and make Mega Drive games harder and add in more depth.Quote:
Oh well? It doesn't mean what they said in a review are absolute facts.
Yep and again it was a case of you asking me for proof .Quote:
Once again that was another situation
Yep 1 main button and that's it every simple for everyone - that's why the Wii did so well , with its simple games and simple controller . Just look and Madden on something like a Mega Drive to playing it on the 360 . With Madden on the MD you could get a mate over and show him the basics and in a few min's start to have a decent game , on the 360 its a nightmare trying to explain what every button does and all the moves.Quote:
So good controls now make a game easy
That was the beauty of something like Sonic you killed nothing (completely non violent game so right from the start great for kids) and simple spot on controls so kids could play it and love it . That was part of the games magic
NO I don't care at all for speed runs - you seem to do when trying to show which game is harder . All I will say is there's Speed Run on Deamon Souls being done in like an hour -when for most people that game will take days/weeks to finish (if they ever can) . It does not reflect the games difficulty, reliability or indeed quality.Quote:
You're too fixated on that one point to see the big picture here.
You can finish Saturn SEGA Rally in min's , but you're going to tell that something like Virtua Racing on the Saturn is the better and the harder racer, because on a Speed Run it take longer to finish ?
I got news for you most Platform games in 1985 and well the 80's were simple, more so if they were an Arcade port . I bet most people could pretty much breeze through Wonder Boy and Shinobi on their Master Systems - but that's missing the point of the time and the fact that they're Arcade ports.Quote:
Not trying to change it, just bringing up more examples of how the 2D Marios in general are pretty
Yep there do and for most Mario IV does that better than Sonic 1 or 2 . But that will always be subjective and up to the person playing the games . I've never been much of a fan of the 16 bit Sonic's at all - To me Quackshot, Ghost N Ghouls, Revenge Of Shinobi, Magical Flying Hat Turbo Adventure, World Of Illusion were better than any of the 16 Bit Sonic Mega Drive games, but they again I love Sonic Adv more than any 3D platform game - its always you get from a game , not what a review says or speed run shows .Quote:
What about level design? Boss design? Enemy Design? Gameplay Design? Do all those mean nothing
I doubt Sega of Japan gave two shits what some silly Gaijin's had to say about their games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I asked for proof because you were spouting nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
This argument is complete and utter nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
A game can still have complex gameplay with simple controls. Sonic's controls may be simple, but mastering his pinball physics is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Again, I wasn't saying the speed run itself is waht made the game easy, it was the fact that the game allowed you to legitimately skip to the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Better no, harder it would really depend. But again this is comparing apples to oranges. Neither of those games lets you take a shortcut to first place and win by skipping 90% of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Not as fast as you can breeze through NES Mario.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Please explain how this level:Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
http://www.mariomayhem.com/downloads...27sIsland1.png
Is more complex than this level?:
http://www.soniczone0.com/games/soni...hz-act1map.png
Just about every boss in SMW is a complete push over as well. You will never encounter a boss in any of the SNES Mario's that's on par with difficulty to the harder bosses you encounter in Sonic 1, 2, and 3K.
That's where you'll be wrong . Shinobi 3 was take back and made harder and had bonus stages put in after the review copy was knocked in the English press, for being too easy and too short . I think due to press talk Street Fighter 2 was taken back and had its graphics improved quite a bit . In key Markets games makers will take note now and againQuote:
I doubt Sega of Japan gave two shits what some silly Gaijin's had to say about their games
That the Saturn didn't have Hardward support for 3D transparent effects - I think I was right mind you , you even took issue with Yuji Naka had to say :daze:Quote:
I asked for proof because you were spouting nonsense
Yes any game will take time to master , but with just one button its far simpler to getting going and where anybody could play it.Quote:
A game can still have complex gameplay with simple controls
Yeah and we all spend £60 on a game to skip through 90% of it , and that's overlooking that most gamers will never have the ability to do that . Speed runs are all about showing off a gamer skill imo.Quote:
it was the fact that the game allowed you to legitimately skip to the end
You can breeze through all those games - They were all very simple to play and finish But that would be missing the pointQuote:
Not as fast as you can breeze through NES Mario
Looking over how Mario IV had more levels it had the better replay vaule . What you little screen shot doesn't show it how in Mario you had the likes of Yellow, Red switches ect to open up new parts of the level(any of that in Sonic (bar a few break away walls) the various other secrets you also then had levels like Star Road which ups the difficulty quite a bitQuote:
Please explain how this level
Except the Saturn does have hardware transparency. We've been over this many times with you. The issue with it is that it has errors when transparent pixels overlap. That' why it was rarely ever used in 3D games. Sonic R uses it for the light trails, you can see the errors where the polygons overlap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Burning Rangers does true transparency as well, but it does it in a roundabout way to work around the errors VDP1 transparency does.
It may be easier to get going, but the pinball physics in Sonic I'd say are far more difficult to master than the run and jump mechanics of Super Mario World.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
It doesn't take mad skills to take the warp zones in Mario, you just need to know where they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Wonderboy and Shinobi on the Master System will probably take you about 15-25 minutes to breeze through, the NES Mario's you can breeze through in 5-10 minutes thanks to warp zones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Those switches are shown in those maps. They are maps of the entire level and show every hidden path and secret. It's quite clear that the Sonic level is far more complex and has more to explore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
My reaction to this whole thread :
http://i1.ujarani.com/3/1/arf56J.gif
I'd love to see someone legitmately "breeze through" Wonderboy. :p
Me and my Brother did back in Christmas of 1987 - Ok were died quite a lot but it wasn't that hard of a game to finish. I wouldn't mind some expert game finished the game in a record time with out dyeing once and collecting all the bonuses and dolls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
Not a 3D one .Quote:
Except the Saturn does have hardware transparency
I don't know both require top class skills do right all the way through the game .Quote:
but the pinball physics in Sonic I'd say are far more difficult to master than the run and jump mechanics of Super Mario World
I seriously doubt that the average gamer back in 1991 was playing Mario IV at anywhere near the level of skill shown in your video . Most would have played the game , the way it was meant to be played and most wouldn't have finished it in a day , never mind less than 20 min's .Quote:
It doesn't take mad skills to take the warp zones in Mario,
Shinobi is easy to finish on the MS and there's little or no replay value its very simple > people could finish the likes of Alex Kid (Sega then answer to Mario) and Alex Kid in Shinobi world very easy too on their Master System , but to me they're still great games .Quote:
the NES Mario's you can breeze through in 5-10 minutes thanks to warp zones.
With the new parts of the levels opened up ? . What about the secrets likes Donut Secret House .Quote:
Those switches are shown in those maps
The way the Saturn renders it's the same thing. The Transparency blending it has is only 50/50 blending and can be applied to both 2D and 3D. The problem with 3D is due to using Warped Quads. Basically when two pixels overlap you get errors as the Transparency effect get's applied twice to the same pixel. Some games still use this as the developers weren't worried about the issue. Sonic R is a perfect example. The light trails when you use a speed booster are using the hardware VDP1 transparency effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
We have explained this to you numerous times TA. You need to stop taking the dumbed down PR talk in Magazines as absolute fact and start listening to what people who actually know about the hardware are telling you.
We're not talking about what the average gamer was doing back in 1991. We're talking about which game is easier right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
That may be so, but they still take more time than the NES Mario games and are more challenging I'd say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I believe so, it shows everything in the first level of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Haha, it's just incredible how you can face the true and said "No it is wrong !".Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Did you read the VDP1 technical documentation ? It does support polygon (quad) transparency, maybe not as featured and fancy than the PSX one but it does has it (1/2 source + 1/2 destination mixing). It's rarely used indeed because of the overlapping rendering issue but it is here.
Well i guess i am just one other guy repeating the same thing that you will refute...
Once again, just to make it clear:
http://evilboris.sonic-cult.net/SSF/...)/00000369.png
http://evilboris.sonic-cult.net/SSF/...)/00000369.png
That's VDP1 3D Transparency, errors and all.