I always bring this up when I hear someone say the Saturn can't do transparency:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rpVal14xRU
Those clouds overhead the ship, those heavy clouds under the ship, they wouldn't look that nice if they were dithered.
Printable View
I always bring this up when I hear someone say the Saturn can't do transparency:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rpVal14xRU
Those clouds overhead the ship, those heavy clouds under the ship, they wouldn't look that nice if they were dithered.
One, that video sucks in quality. Two, it's dithered.
You can see other effects in this shot from the same game, being dithered.
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/shTMXSlZue4/hqdefault.jpg
Is anybody keeping count of how many times TA brings up the same transparency nonsense and is proven wrong by the same example(s) as last time?
TA: before you try to disqualify that screenshot again for being emulation, last time you tried I posted footage recorded from real actual hardware.
I think he's stuck in an infinite loop on the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Black_Tiger
while (true) {Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
console.writeline("Saturn can't do transparency!!!");
}
I will await further input.Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
Kool Kitty where are you!!
Note I didn't say it can't do it. ;)
Just noting from the screenshots of this game, it appears to be dithering the effects.
Evildragon is right on that game. It's clearly dithered. There may be some real transparency done with VDP 2 though.Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
Well its obvious theres alot of dithering going on in that game, the explosions, some of the bullets, but I stand by the clouds. Clouds are always a high priority.
Instead of forcing me to watch the entire video again, can you just give me a time?
Because the video looks like it's composite, and that won't show dithering, so I need a screenshot.
Reply moved here:Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...981#post616981
Composite often shows dithering due to chroma moire artifacts (rainbow banding like dithering in H40 on the MD), at least in NTSC. It's pretty obvious in the composite video captures on YT of Sonic World in Sonic Jam. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by evildragon
There's 2 points to argue there, aside from limiting the whip (or the dynamic jump arc for that matter).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
And that's:
1. add more level design elements (puzzels, enemies, obstacles, etc) that actually make good/interesting use of the new whip mechanics, and
2. modify the weapons to make them more distinct/useful and/or add more level design elements that make them more critical/useful in general. (having a weaker whip that requires upgrades -like in Bloodlines- might also have made it more interesting/challenging)
OK, let's go through some of the "good PCM drum examples" for the MD again. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by azonicrider
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG1c2U4ld2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1I-RAeIV68
(these first two use the same sound engine, both were fairly early games too from ~1990, both 1 MB or 8Mbits -as are most of these examples)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJToICnCRAo
(sounds kind of distorted, real hardware, but not the best, still OK for this)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8X6gtAsoL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1clKj6PHoAo
(not really great samples, but still a classic ;))
All the 16-bit Sonic games use sampled percussion too, but it's not really anything special for the most part.
Well . . . OK, 3D Blast's drums are kinda nice. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUUyz0g4c18
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1616357E912A3F4A
He has been since his very first post on this topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118
That's a 2D transparent effect - which the Saturn had no issues with what so ever as the likes of Astal, Darius Gaiden, Gekirindan, Layered Section showed and GOD knows how many 2D games showed . Also that effect is VDP2 effect anyway and well that had no issues being made transparent be in a 2D game or a 3D game . The main issues came with a 3D transparent effect being overlayed a 3D polygon object and that's when you could just forget it on the SaturnQuote:
I always bring this up when I hear someone say the Saturn can't do transparenc
Its really and compared to the speed trails in Wipeout on the PS pretty shit . The only real nice completely opaque transparent effects in Sonic R is on the shield (which is a 2D effect) or the clever use of the VDP 2 swirling background in the last stageQuote:
That's VDP1 3D Transparency, errors and all.
Well if we're going to bring up a 2D shooter or 2D Transparent effects the Saturn had no issues with . Try playing Layered Section 2 on both the PS and Saturn and see the Saturn just not do the 3D transparent polygons effects , while it does pretty much everything else .Quote:
Is anybody keeping count of how many times TA brings up the same transparency nonsense and is proven wrong by the same example
Well I'm on about when both games were out then Mario IV for me was the better the game. If you want to talk about the here and now , well then something like Super Mario Bros on the Wii or Rayman Legends are much deeper 2D games .Quote:
We're not talking about what the average gamer was doing back in 1991.
Still hung up on the speed runs huh. I think there's a speed run of someone finishing Demon Souls before say Sonic Unleashed. So that means Sonic Unleashed is the better game and more challenging game too . One can finish Ikaruga quicker than one can finish Panzer Dragoon Orta , does that mean Orta is the more challenging game ? same goes for R-Type Final vers the likes of IkarugaQuote:
but they still take more time than the NES Mario games and are more challenging I'd say
NopeQuote:
I believe so, it shows everything in the first level of the game
Just becuase it doesn't look like the exact effect in Wipeout doesn't mean it's not true transparency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I didn't say modern games, I said I'm looking at Super Mario World as how I'd approach it now, not by how gamers approached it in 1991.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Where did I mention speed runs? You said those games were easier to play through, I simply pointed out that the NES Mario's are easier and can be beaten with less time and effort. That makes them easier games. Quit focusing on a few words in my posts and read the whole thing. Otherwise don't bother posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Why don't you actually back it up with some evidence and proof instead of just saying "no" like 2 year old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
The clouds are transparent, it's a VDP2 effect. Particles are dithered since they're VDP1. The game doesn't use the VDP1 transparency effect used in Sonic R.
Bingo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
In the case of 3D transparency, I don't see it as a big deal as both of these console are just shit for 3D. So if you want slightly higher-class crap 3D, go with the PS1.
Vapor Trail has awesome drums. Bass drums.
Returning to genesis PCM discussion,
Skitchin does a ton of PCM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHaRo5Pe634
Anything matt furniss also has phenomenal drums on the genny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDDhaV-TPrY
Some GEMS based games do too (GEMS has pretty good PCM playback):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu-DY6Phm_0
Gleylancer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEpwXVZkHLM
Crusader of Centy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIsw7lYodJQ
Shinobi 3:
Rolling Thunder 3:
Jewel Master:
Slap Fight MD:
High Seas Havoc:
Because it's something that comes up far to often, more SPAM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajx_p__Wd90
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI9n3qro6tg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzBcoNLwTUw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxKFbPrVSs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nkYBxJnmUo
Neat sound engine there and pretty good multi-channel PCM playback with sample scaling (pretty good technically, but a good bit better than that by typical MD game standards). Pretty sure it's 4 channel PCM mixing, at least I remember stef mentioning it at one point (including SFX/speech and music samples), not sure about the sample rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamahl
It would have been interesting to see a game using more ROM for the samples though . . . the drums are still kind of weak and the guitar sample is strained WAY out of its useful range much of the time. (plus, that guitar isn't really the best/most impressive thing you'd want to sample -in terms of stuff difficult/impossible to do well in FM/PSG)
FM instruments are also a little above average for EA games too.
Yes, good and tasteful, though also a bit more synthy (and simple) sounding than the percussion in Galaxy Force, or especially Mega Turrican or Vapor Trail. (or what Tiido uses :p )Quote:
Anything matt furniss also has phenomenal drums on the genny:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDDhaV-TPrY
Yep, and I wonder why more didn't at least manage that well . . . using the timer polling method. Given the typical sample rates used, it would be OK for that (and GEMS itself allowed up to ~10 kHz), or even more so for 68k drivers where the Z80 is slaved to PCM only anyway. (Ugh, like with Capcom's sound driver . . . that screwed up in spite of dedicated Z80 PCM handling -and 68k sound handling sloppy enough to cause much of the uneven playback due to Z80 bus contention, apparently)Quote:
Some GEMS based games do too (GEMS has pretty good PCM playback):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu-DY6Phm_0
In the case of Earthworm Jim 2 (maybe some stuff in 1), I'm pretty sure they're using 4-bit PCM though . . . it's not super muffled or aliased like low bitrate 8-bit PCM, but chrunchy/distorted as low res PCM tends to sound. That or REALLY poorly optimized 8-bit PCM, but I rather doubt that. (same thing goes for most speech/SFX that sound grainy in GEMS games) Eartworm Jim 2 is one of the few examples I can think of where a multiplat MD game using sampled drums had better sounding samples on the SNES version. (assuming they're 4-bit linear PCM though, still not too bad really -and probably good notable examples for 4-bit compared to low sample rate 8-bit PCM of similar bitrates)
There's also the nice drums in Madden '96, but the better YT video of that were taken down iirc . . .
Its looks utter shit and like a place holder effect and compared to the countless transparent effects in PS games comes way up short .Quote:
Just becuase it doesn't look like the exact effect in Wipeout doesn't mean it's not true transparenc
Well now I wouldn't even bother with Sonic 1 tbh . And sure in the days of guides and videos at a touch of the keyboard: I may have played Mario IV a bit differently (though in saying that Super Play did show you how one could finish Mario IV by finishing just 11 levels ) . Back in the day Mario IV was for me the finest platform game ever made and well even today nothing has better Mario IV .Quote:
I said I'm looking at Super Mario World as how I'd approach it now
Less time does not mean the game is easier . Completing Mario IV and all its levels and all its secrets will take more time and effort than finishing Sonic that much is for sure.Quote:
I simply pointed out that the NES Mario's are easier and can be beaten with less time and effort
Again that screen grab isn't showing the switches or the hidden secrets seeing as the Swiches places are on latter levels, that then alter the earlier stages when you go back to them - That is something that doesn't happen in Sonic, so Mario IV is not only the bigger game but also features the better replay value . Like with Exhumed on the Saturn and getting on the hidden Team dolls after you beat the game, Mario IV was getting all the secrets long after you finished the gameQuote:
Why don't you actually back it up with some evidence and proof instead
That doesn't change the fact it's still true transparency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
No, but in combination with less effort it does make it easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
It's not a screen grab, it's a map of the entire level. It show's everything in that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I generally look suspiciously on programmers haevily using PCM. For me it is a sign of being lazy to create sound and music on their own. And we all know that the real Sega sound breathes in real time synthesis only.
I tend to value how well the chips are being used. For example I'd say the Skitchin example is bad usage, since the FM part is being very underused. But at the same time, games that have FM drums are bad too since the system has a PCM capable channel for a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom M.
Some FM drums sound great though, like the ones in Devilish and Gauntlet IV.
And those two games happen to have the same composer ;). TF 4 also doesn't do too bad, Jesper Kyd stuff probably has the best FM drums. Still, they'd all be better as PCM drums. FM is not good for drums.Quote:
Originally Posted by roundwars
Holy crap, if Jesper's stuff is all FM then I love FM drums. Honestly, even on my ancient Dolby Prologic system I can hear the creaks and cracks in the best PCM drums on Genesis. I am glad that they are there, but at the same time they seem out of place in certain setups. In my car all I can hear is a beat box when I play anything from Yuzo Koshiro for example.
I was surprised too when I discovered they were FM, insane stuff really. If all FM drums sounded like that I wouldn't really care about PCM (even if Vapor Trail drums sound better) :p. I'd guess the reason his drums are so good is that he wasn't afraid of having his instruments sound noisy and crackly or whatever you wanna call it (it's hard to describe). That kind of sound is perfect for drums.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheath
Speaking of FM drums. Here are some really nice FM drums for a Doujin game on the X68k.
I wouldn't even class it as that.Quote:
That doesn't change the fact it's still true transparency
Less effort to a 'skilled' player and where that player would need to play Mario many times over to perfect each level and know all the secrets . Not at all what the average player would do .Quote:
No, but in combination with less effort it does make it easier
Not it doesn't show a level before and after . In Mario you can save and also go back to each level to find, something you can't in Sonic . There's more replay value and secrets in MarioIVQuote:
It's not a screen grab, it's a map of the entire level. It show's everything in that level.
Here's on a MSXQuote:
Originally Posted by Raijin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLhrVioTC4o
Right at the start, second song has even better drums though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQw7MA8ogeA
At 2:45.
Whether it impresses you or not doesn't change the fact that it's true transparencyQuote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
I'm pretty sure any little kid can play a mario game well and learn the secrets. I did. I was beating Mario 1 in under 10 minutes when I was under 10 years old. You don't need much skill to beat the game, you just need to know where to go.Quote:
Less effort to a 'skilled' player and where that player would need to play Mario many times over to perfect each level and know all the secrets . Not at all what the average player would do .
It's a screen grab of the first level, he didn't say it was the whole game. Trekkies just used it as an example to demonstrate the general simplicity of Mario World 's level design. Going back and trudging through flat, boring levels to find keys to unlock more flat, boring levels isn't my cup of tea. That's why Mario World is my least favorite. Sonic's level design actually shows some creativity and variation.Quote:
Not it doesn't show a level before and after . In Mario you can save and also go back to each level to find, something you can't in Sonic . There's more replay value and secrets in MarioIV
Mario 1 was simple , but there that was 1985 and it was a port of a Arcade game . Mario III and Mario IV were far more deeper affairs and where I doubt most gamers were able to finish them in less that 20 mins at the 1st time of asking .Quote:
I'm pretty sure any little kid can play a mario game well and learn the secrets. I did. I was beating Mario 1 in under 10 minutes when I was under 10 years old
There's a world record speed run with Symphony of the Night being done in less than 20 mins . How many people here could even come close to that now, never mind when we 1st had the game
Exaclty and what I've been saying . In Mario would could hit a switch it be saved and you could go back to earlier levels and they'll be new gameplay elements introduced . In Sonic for one thing you couldn't save, you couldn't back track and even if you finished the game (finding all the secret break part of the level) it would still play and be exactly the same as if you just powered the game up for the 1st time . Mario IV was not only the bigger game with more levels, but thanks to the switches, secrets and saves it had the far better replay vauleQuote:
It's a screen grab of the first level, he didn't say it was the whole game.
Super Mario 1 was actually a console exclusive. Mario Bros. and Donkey Kong/Jr. were the only games starring Mario that were arcade cabinets first. Some games got arcade cabinets later, Super Mario Bros. most likely did, I know SMB2 did around the same time as it's cartridge release, as well as even Streets of Rage 2, but all were console exclusives first.
As for replayability, getting good enough to get all the chaos emeralds in one go, in order to see the best ending, adds a lot more to the Sonic games than you might think.
Great video!!!!!!!1Quote:
Originally Posted by Lync
Dude, Mario World (not Mario IV) is not hard to beat quickly. If you really wanted to beat it in 10 minutes, just look up how to do it and it's not hard to figure out how to skip a bunch of levels anyway. I highly doubt people weren't finding ways to zip through it BITD. And your argument doesn't change the fact that Sonic 1 takes longer to beat. You can't skip anything in it or save. If you want to beat it with all the emeralds you have to start from the beginning, and it'll take you longer than the average playthrough of Mario World.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
He just used level 1 from Mario world as an example of how flat and boring most of the stages are in the game. Yes, some get a little more complex as you go on, but the majority are just "walk to the right, make a few jumps, hop on about three enemies, and maybe go down a pipe." And what about the switches? All they add is a path or two in the air, maybe a bridge, or the cape feather so you can just fly through the stage and avoid doing anything. Mario 3 had better level design than Mario World. Sonic had actual things to do in the level with multiple paths and hidden areas. Mario World has none of that. Hell, you can even see where the switches will lead you before you even hit them. For me Mario World was a test of endurance to see how far I could make it before I got bored and skipped to the end.Quote:
Exaclty and what I've been saying . In Mario would could hit a switch it be saved and you could go back to earlier levels and they'll be new gameplay elements introduced . In Sonic for one thing you couldn't save, you couldn't back track and even if you finished the game (finding all the secret break part of the level) it would still play and be exactly the same as if you just powered the game up for the 1st time . Mario IV was not only the bigger game with more levels, but thanks to the switches, secrets and saves it had the far better replay vaule
Sonic 1 took me over six months to beat because I kept getting trapped in the Labyrinth Zone. I wasn't particularly enamored with mascot platformers, and when I thought I could kill Robotnik during the climb I kept trying, only to eventually die for the effort. I'm not sure what eventually convinced me to just let him escape and let me get to my favorite level, the Star Light Zone.
After that finishing without the emeralds and then running through again while collecting them all was easy.
This thread can resume after we're done appreciating the marvelous Star Light Zone:
http://www.soniczone0.com/games/soni...ne0artfull.jpg
Point being 'now' . try looking up how to beat Mario IV in 1991 when there was no internet , no youtube and no GameFAQ's . Different story back thenQuote:
just look up how to do it and it's not hard to figure out how to skip a bunch of levels anyway.
Talking longer to finish does not equal a game is easier . Like I said a skilled player can no doubt finish the likes of Ikaruga before ones finished the likes of Orta or REZ does that mean Ikaruga is an easier game ? I really don't think soQuote:
And your argument doesn't change the fact that Sonic 1 takes longer to beat
And most knockers of Sonic will just say its a game where you just have to hold right on the Joypad to finishQuote:
but the majority are just "walk to the right, make a few jumps, hop on about three enemies, and maybe go down a pipe
Its called replayability , something that Sonic didn't have until the likes of Sonic 3 and Sonic CD .Quote:
All they add is a path or two in the air, maybe a bridge, or the cape feather so you can just fly through the stage and avoid doing anything.
Try that in Sonic 1. You'll die within 10 seconds if you do nothing put hold right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda
Each level in Sonic has multiple paths already there. Going through and trying different paths doesn't count as re-playability? And what about going through to get the different endings with the Chaos Emeralds?Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Andromeda