Advantages of SNES hardware vs. Genesis hardware

It also doesn't make sense how people can appreciate the mono beep bops on the NES, yet they can't appreciate Genesis music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMdNLUN1pXU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG1c2U4ld2Y

The Genesis sound system sucks...
It doesn't matter that games like Tengen's Gauntlet IV and Tengen's Marble Madness sound closer to the arcade originals than any arcade port on the released-full-two-years-later SNES.
It doesn't matter that games like Wayne's World, Earthworm Jim, Disney's The Lion King, Mickey Mania and Flashback have voice samples sounding a lot clearer on the sucks-for-DAC-playback 1988's console.
It doesn't matter that games like Earthworm Jim, Cool Spot, Zero the Kamikaze Squirrel and Flashback have less and/or shortened audio samples on the SNES due to its limited sound RAM and inability/difficulties to "stream" audio directly from the ROM like the losers' #1 choice 16-bit console does easily.
It doesn't matter that fully FM synth soundtracks require a lot less ROM space than the SNES space-age-technology sound system.
It doesn't matter that most of arcade boards and the high-end Japanese computers (X68000, FM Towns, etc.) used FM-based sound systems just like the awful-sounding Sega's black box.
It doesn't matter that the low quality samples + heavy compression + forced interpolation can make your game sound like if you're playing with your TV under a pillow inside a bathtub filled with quicksilver.
...
Even Nintendo Power objectively stated that SNES sound was far superior, so it IS.

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Originally Posted by tomaitheous

Sonic was amazing when it came out. It was different, it was pure fun, it was polished, etc. I think it's a secret to everyone, that Sonic games on the Genesis specifically focus on the excitement of speed and rushing through the course. That's not say that there aren't parts that require you slow down and explore, or etc. Similar to a SMW, but definitely not its equal in that department. It gave Sonic games just enough variety to break up the run and rush parts, IMO. SMW on the other hand, also has levels that blaze through (you do have a run button in Mario games). Some levels are designed specifically for that. Does it compare equally to Sonic in those areas? Not-even-close. Why? Because these are *TWO* different games. If you trying to reshape these games into something that are directly comparable, then you've already FAILED before you begun.

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I remember that back when SOnic came out it made a tremendous visual impression - the graphics were lush and colourful and to be honest they almost make SMW on the SNES look like an 8 bit game, with its simpler / more boxy visuals. I think that both games stood the test of time well, they are different but both geat. That said for me SMB3 is the definitive Mario game ;)

Speaking of square waves. Here's some square waves on the SNES.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyIeHJmrbhs

Now here's actual square waves on the Genesis, not just the 'squareish' sound, but actual PSG.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIziQ2ldmmU

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Originally Posted by Black_Tiger

The Genesis is much better at "performing" music. All SNES music has that vibrato-like effect from repeating short sound clips to create notes. This is independent from the muffling distortion combo of the original sample quality + compression artifacts + final layer of reverb. Those four elements lead to the SNES' signature warble sound. Separate from that, compared to the Genesis, the SNES has a limited ability to transition between notes. Transitioning from note to note to note on SNES is like a jagged staircase while in comparison Genesis sound has smooth curving arcs.

This is why the Genesis is better at actual music. Unfortunately, too many retro game fans today can't appreciate composition and performance and tend to rave over terrible pieces that have the kinds of "sounds" they think are best, while also trashing beautifully composed and performed/programmed music. The SNES isn't even realistic sounding as it more or less attempts to imitate imitation instruments. Just listen to real and simulated instruments in CD music from the 16-bit generation. The SNES is much further off than simply being "down-scaled". It simply is what it is. The overall combination of what the SNES can and can't do is its signature sound. But it certainly isn't realistic.

It's cool to prefer SNES sound or particular SNES soundtracks. But the whole superiority thing is a myth shared among Nintendo fanboys who are incapable of perceiving any imperfections in the only perfect console ever made (see the backwards "square'ish", "real instruments", sprites, etc comments above). They aren't helped by the journalists who have been feeding them this b.s. over the past twenty years.

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Well i understand the NeoGeo64 point, myself when i got a SNES i immediately though it sounded far superior to my MD. Orchestral instruments / ambiance musics just sounded different and better ! Of course i do know how the SPC700 work, that it is totally sample based with very limited memory, constrained compression, awful filtering, and many others flaws... and the MD chip sounds clearer, can reproduce some instruments better. But still FM is not able to reproduce a lot of instrument (or we don't know how to reproduce them with FM) and sometime trying to mimic them just sound wrong.
I believe both chips have theirs strength and weakness, SNES chip allow simple sample based compositions even if the limited memory hurts. FM is definitely more complex to exploit, but when it's done correctly you can get the best from it. Hopefully Genesis is not just FM, you can also use sample (even multi sample with a capable driver, and that is without any memory limitation as on SNES) and PSG sound. I believe that is the addition of these 3 parts which can make the Genesis sound superior. FM alone would be a problem, having PCM and PSG to second it is just right !

I found a DKC Aquatic Ambiance Genesis Remix which show that Sega Genesis chip can somehow handle ambiance style music :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsTNBRNa10Q

IMO it sound really good... but probably not a good as the original ;)

One FM channel can -realistically- recerate any one string. Typical orchestral instrument has 4 strings however, you would need almost whole chip to do that one instrument when its playing chords and such or to create layers which is what is going on in an orchestra. With sample you can have a whole section in one channel, other question is if you can properly loop it, and you would also need many samples for different pitches or it will sound really unrealistic.
In any case you should be doing rich synth tracks on FM, music you'll hear in radio and such. it is most excellent at that !

But what are all the different channel waves that are in the Genesis' FM chip? like triangle, triangle, square, circle, x?

It only has sine. But making squares or sawteeth takes just 2 operators and you got 2 left for other kind of stuff. There's no circle waveform :P

Yea I was just being humorous, all this triangles and squares made me think of PlayStation buttons.

So the Genesis has no square waves? I swear the composer in Beyond Oasis only used square waves for every song.

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

So the Genesis has no square waves? I swear the composer in Beyond Oasis only used square waves for every song.

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Well, the PSG chip has 3 square wave channels (+ 1 white noise), and FM can easily emulate square waves (all the square waves in genesis Furniss music are FM), so it's possible :p. Did you know Yuzo Koshiro made the Beyond Oasis soundtrack? How you go from RoS and SoR to BO is beyond me.

It was a steady progression ROS -> BK1 -> BK2 -> Bk3 -> BO. The music in BO is quite excellent if you ask me.

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Originally Posted by Christuserloeser

It was a steady progression ROS -> BK1 -> BK2 -> Bk3 -> BO. The music in BO is quite excellent if you ask me.

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Electronic Dance Music -> Electronic Dance Music -> Electronic Dance Music -> Randomly Put Together Noises (with some good tunes by another musician) -> Square Waves.

Not steady in the slightest.

Well, I disagree. If you look closer, ROS has a handful of tracks that resemble the dance music of BK1. While it features a good number of remixes from BK1, BK2 already has a lot of tracks that hint at what to expect in BK3, and in the review BK3 has a few little hints at what would be the main style in BO.

The BK2 songs that hint to BK3 were done by Motohiro Kawashima, which is also the man responsible for the good songs in BK3 (excepting shinobi reverse, but that one is pretty overrated as is). There's nothing in BK3 that sounds even remotely similar to BO.

I see a general digression in Koshiro's tunes from his early days until Beyond Oasis. They go from very catchy and memorable, even genius sometimes, to random notes floating around in a void. I'm no expert though, music in general went the same way to me and now all I listen to is classical instrumental or video game chiptunes. Oh, and Offspring.

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Originally Posted by NeoGeo64

I'm still learning about the Genesis, that's why I'm here. Random question... can anyone show me an example of the 32X's full sound capabilities?

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I did a number of example 32X homebrews that involve sound, namely a test of Tremor to play OGG-Vorbis files, a MOD player, and an XM player. The threads are all in this forum, but note that fileden quit, so any fileden links no longer work. I need to upload some of the fileden files to my MediaFire account.

Even these examples are not the FULL capability of the 32X for sound, but far better than the official 32X games, which merely used the 32X to play four more pcm channels. That one SH2 in the 32X can decode and play ogg files with very little optimization shows that the 32X could do much better sound than any game utilized.

If you want to look at better 32X sound in a game, look for my Yeti3D for 32X example. The latest version embedded the MOD player in it, so it had sound effects and music along with the ability to shoot bad guys.

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Originally Posted by Chilly Willy

I did a number of example 32X homebrews that involve sound, namely a test of Tremor to play OGG-Vorbis files, a MOD player, and an XM player. The threads are all in this forum, but note that fileden quit, so any fileden links no longer work. I need to upload some of the fileden files to my MediaFire account.

Even these examples are not the FULL capability of the 32X for sound, but far better than the official 32X games, which merely used the 32X to play four more pcm channels. That one SH2 in the 32X can decode and play ogg files with very little optimization shows that the 32X could do much better sound than any game utilized.

If you want to look at better 32X sound in a game, look for my Yeti3D for 32X example. The latest version embedded the MOD player in it, so it had sound effects and music along with the ability to shoot bad guys.

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Hey, it's Chilly! Thanks for Wolfenstein 3D for the 32X! I'm really enjoying it.

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Originally Posted by FuturePrimitive

Hey, it's Chilly! Thanks for Wolfenstein 3D for the 32X! I'm really enjoying it.

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Thanks. I really to finish the update. If you like the current version, you'll love the update. :)

Chilly is Alive! Awesome!

Koshiro should've made every song on the Genesis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzrpKjnaEL4

superbly epic boss battle music.

I would have loved to see what guys like Ryu Umemoto and Manubu Namiki could have done on the genesis. Both easily on par with early Koshiro (if not better).

Yeah, I don't know man, it just still sounds better to me. Maybe because I grew up with a SNES and didn't own a Genesis. It really does sound good, the two links you posted. Heh, the Genesis has good music too but it sounds more synthy but that doesn't mean the tunes rock! That's the whole thing though, the whole Sega VS Nintendo thing is cool, because without it we wouldn't have the whole 16 bit wars which really defined our childhood, ya know? Both systems kick ass and had alot more inspired games than the junk coming out now, I think.

One more thing, the Genesis' hardware was designed on paper about five years before the SNES. The SNES did have a superior sound chip, but I personally think Sonic 3 sounds AMAZING! How did they do those drum samples on Sonic 3 (they sound alot different from Sonic 1 or 2)?

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Originally Posted by NeoGeo64

One more thing, the Genesis' hardware was designed on paper about five years before the SNES. The SNES did have a superior sound chip, but I personally think Sonic 3 sounds AMAZING! How did they do those drum samples on Sonic 3 (they sound alot different from Sonic 1 or 2)?

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I just think it's weird that you think the Genesis sounds like square waves ;>_> It sounds nothing like square waves. Square waves would be NES and Master System (and to a lesser extend, PCE/TG16). Genesis has that FM sound. It's VERY distinct and I don't how anyone could confuse it with square waves. SNES has that typical small waveform pitch bending sound to it (reminds me of early mods and amiga stuff) - where the pitch drastically changes with the note range (hell, not even an octave range) in an unrealistic way. Of course, you can do other 'non' sampled type stuff on the SNES (like small waveform morphing) - but 99% of devs didn't. The only stuff I really care for on the snes was the strings and the horns. Though they didn't age well IMO. That's not to say there aren't some exceptions to the SNES catalog of music, but it's pretty small IMO. When FM is done bad... its BAD sounding (i.e. terrible). But new stuff done nowadays on the Genesis/Megadrive sounds awesome. But I'm with stef on this; FM alone isn't enough (at least the 2612). A decent sample pack to go along with it makes for some incredible sounding music (and not just drumkits either). Same with the SNES; they should have added a few FM 'like' channels. Or had the option to set a sampled channel to something that's timbre bending-ish. Hell, they were really close to doing 'real' wavetable synth. There must have been a patent on it :/

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Originally Posted by NeoGeo64

but I personally think Sonic 3 sounds AMAZING!

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Eh? It's ok I suppose, but there's many better soundtracks on the genesis. Including Ristar by the same folk.
You'll probably like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b18RLdMMJ9Y

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Originally Posted by Stef

myself when i got a SNES i immediately though it sounded far superior to my MD.

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Yes, I remember that these were also my impressions back in 1992. That is not to say that the Genesis did not have some kick ass soundtracks (e.g. Streets of Rage, Sonic, Road Rash) but on the whole I felt that the SNES sounded a lot more mature and took videogame sound tracks / effects to a new level.

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Originally Posted by MtothaJ

Yes, I remember that these were also my impressions back in 1992. That is not to say that the Genesis did not have some kick ass soundtracks (e.g. Streets of Rage, Sonic, Road Rash) but on the whole I felt that the SNES sounded a lot more mature and took videogame sound tracks / effects to a new level.

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Mega Drive music had a broader range of music and styles I feel (where as lot of Snes games sounded very similar ), but for certain tracks the Snes had much better quality music . Games like Super Castlevania IV, Axelay, Mystical Ninja, Star Fox, Super R-Type and more so Super Metroid just left most Mega Drive music standing .

Yea maybe the Genesis could've used more PCM channels.

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Originally Posted by Team Andromeda

Mega Drive music had a broader range of music and styles I feel (where as lot of Snes games sounded very similar ), but for certain tracks the Snes had much better quality music . Games like Super Castlevania IV, Axelay, Mystical Ninja, Star Fox, Super R-Type and more so Super Metroid just left most Mega Drive music standing .

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I fully agree - SNES music on the whole followed a particular distinctive style probably built arund the characteristics of the hardware - a lot of games sounded broadly similiar. Mega Drive had more varied soundtracks, that said I feel that IMHO a good SNES track sounded a lot better than a good Genesis track.

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Originally Posted by MtothaJ

that said I feel that IMHO a good SNES track sounded a lot better than a good Genesis track.

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Depends on how you define a good genesis track. On average the SNES sounds a lot better, the bad stuff sounds a lot better than bad genesis stuff, the average stuff sounds better too. When you get to the really good stuff the line is blurred a bit. Can you really say Streets of Rage isn't on par with top of the line SNES stuff? Or the two main songs from Vapor Trail? I'd rather listen to most songs in Devilish than anything from Final Fantasy 6.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

On average the SNES sounds a lot better, the bad stuff sounds a lot better than bad genesis stuff, the average stuff sounds better too.

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This.
For the real good stuff though, I think the Genesis has the edge. However, as I've said several times, to really appreciate the Genesis sound you need to have a good setup; CRT TV's cheapo loudspeakers of the time usually didn't do justice to it.
Games like Streets of Rage have soundtracks which use some instruments with strong bass and some others with strong treble, so you'll need a competent audio equipment to properly listen to that stuff; SOR is fucking awesome with subwoofers and tweeters.

To me is like this:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LiSCX-Rkuq...1600/Disco.jpg

Against this:
http://cdn.teckler.com/images/Osvald...2650b9bdcd.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Eh? It's ok I suppose, but there's many better soundtracks on the genesis. Including Ristar by the same folk.
You'll probably like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b18RLdMMJ9Y

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That really sounds good. I suppose the Genesis sound was great, just different from, the SNES... it just took good programmers. Like any hardware, right?

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

It also doesn't make sense how people can appreciate the mono beep bops on the NES, yet they can't appreciate Genesis music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMdNLUN1pXU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG1c2U4ld2Y

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The Vapor Trail video you posted in your reply sounds good. Almost SNES quality! I really like the drum samples.

Something that I've noticed in some SNES soundtracks is that they tend to have a much better "intro stage" tune, but fall flat afterwards. A great example is Wolfchild. Stage 1 on the SNES is the best version of the Stage 1 theme, but the other songs *suck* in comparison to the Genesis or Amiga soundtracks.

Here are some gifts for you NeoGeo64, in case you don't believe the genesis could do nice RPG music like people are so fond of on the SNES:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT6pYvAkJcA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH_c7OHKl1M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qE_QzZvums
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36R6AWePHYg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taoVgN_izJ4

Sure, they don't mimic real instruments, but to they really need to?

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Originally Posted by NeoGeo64

That really sounds good. I suppose the Genesis sound was great, just different from, the SNES... it just took good programmers. Like any hardware, right?

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Everyone can make good SNES music as its all just samples. The only way you could screw it up, is if you try to compress the samples by like 10:1 in attempt to save cartridge space.

It takes a seasoned professional, to create good FM.

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Originally Posted by azonicrider

Everyone can make good SNES music as its all just samples. The only way you could screw it up, is if you try to compress the samples by like 10:1 in attempt to save cartridge space.

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Yeah but the problem is that you only have 64 KB of sound ram on the SNES, these 64 Kb must contains the sound driver, the music track data and the samples... and this is really not enough memory to have good samples.

If it hasn't been brought up yet, I don't know if you like a heavy metal sound, but this is one of my Genesis favorites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTQIiIKummw

^To me, parts of that sound like it could have come out of the PC versions of Doom or Duke Nukem 3D

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Originally Posted by midnightrider

If it hasn't been brought up yet, I don't know if you like a heavy metal sound, but this is one of my Genesis favorites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTQIiIKummw

^To me, parts of that sound like it could have come out of the PC versions of Doom or Duke Nukem 3D

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Funny you mention that, I think someone was making a Genesis version of some Doom tracks using instruments from Thunderforce IV, and of course, they sounded way better than the darned 32X Doom tracks. I just cant remember were i listened to them.

That Thunder Force IV track is fierce! So immense, so badass, so sick. Gets you hyped up to crush the enemy that outnumbers you.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Eh? It's ok I suppose, but there's many better soundtracks on the genesis. Including Ristar by the same folk.
You'll probably like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b18RLdMMJ9Y

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I need to pick up a copy of this game. That sounds like a great example of a track where the decidedly low tech PSG channels are used really effectively.

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Originally Posted by Kamahl

Sure, they don't mimic real instruments, but to they really need to?

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I think that's an interesting point. The MD/Genesis did require composers to really take into account the hardware they were writing the music for, rather than simply trying to create analogues of real instrumental tracks. This is why I've always thought that Story of Thor/Beyond Oasis was Yuzo Koshiro's weakest work: it was a soundtrack that would have been great with real instruments or samples, but didn't really use the YM2612 to its best effect and ended up reminding me of a orchestral General Midi soundtrack being played back on FM hardware.