Advantages of SNES hardware vs. Genesis hardware

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azonicrider

It takes a seasoned professional, to create good FM.

---

Too bad godlike composers like Ryu Umemoto and Ryu Takami didn't write any Genesis tunes, or we'd have things like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v72vMOwxrfc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eP_GqCdG2p8

Damn shame Youtube doesn't have more tracks from Grounseed... The tracks 'Cave' and 'Longtime Ago' are 2 of my favorites from that game.

Just fyi, the Genesis has the exact same FM capability as the YM2608, which is the chip used in the two games I posted. The only difference is the YM2608 has a dedicated ADPCM channel instead of a lazily hacked PCM channel integrated into channel 6 like the YM2612. The YM2608 also has 6 built in Rhythm channels (all Drums; 1 Kick, 1 Snare, 1 Tom, 1 Closed Hi Hat, 1 Open Hi Hat and 1 Rim Shot) and SSG instead of PSG, which is similar anyway. That said, the Genesis would be able to get very close to the sound in these two videos.

You guys really know your stuff. I never owned a Genesis back in the day, Super Nintendo all the way! lol So I'm not too familiar with some of these titles you're posting. But they do sound good. But why did so many games sound crappy like Doom for 32X?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeoGeo64

You guys really know your stuff. I never owned a Genesis back in the day, Super Nintendo all the way! lol So I'm not too familiar with some of these titles you're posting. But they do sound good. But why did so many games sound crappy like Doom for 32X?

---

Doom 32X, combined with the fact that it was rushed, lazily done and also used the crappiest sound driver (GEMS) molds into what we got, and it's quite possibly the worst use of the Genesis sound ever.

By the way, if you're looking for 'SNES-like' sound on the Genesis, check out both Ristar and Monster World IV. Both great games with great soundtracks. You're missing out on some great things, really.

Not just the Genesis, you're missing out if you overlook the Turbografx-16/PC Engine as well. It was a great generation of gaming overall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raijin

Damn shame Youtube doesn't have more tracks from Grounseed... The tracks 'Cave' and 'Longtime Ago' are 2 of my favorites from that game.

---

It has quite a few like the intro, castle, etc... but I can't find those 2...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by midnightrider

Not just the Genesis, you're missing out if you overlook the Turbografx-16/PC Engine as well. It was a great generation of gaming overall.

---

Eh some consoles don't really matter if you missed out on them, because the western version was crap (TG-16, Saturn).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azonicrider

Eh some consoles don't really matter if you missed out on them, because the western version was crap (TG-16, Saturn).

---

Yeah but the JP library more than makes up for it. These days overlooking that is a mistake, you're missing out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barone

This.
For the real good stuff though, I think the Genesis has the edge. However, as I've said several times, to really appreciate the Genesis sound you need to have a good setup; CRT TV's cheapo loudspeakers of the time usually didn't do justice to it.
Games like Streets of Rage have soundtracks which use some instruments with strong bass and some others with strong treble, so you'll need a competent audio equipment to properly listen to that stuff; SOR is fucking awesome with subwoofers and tweeters.

---

All of this, now I've got the MD running through a semi-decent stereo the bass absolutely kicks ass on a lot of titles. I have a JP collection and out of about 50 or so games the only two I would say have weak music are, funnily enough, the American ones: Roadblasters uses some Tengen sound engine while Comix Zone utilizes GEMS. (The Japanese programmed Tengen titles have vastly superior sound - Snow Bros, Gauntlet IV, Slap Fight etc.) The rest of the games sound freakin' awesome IMO.

The popular examples like Metal Squad, Shinobi and the BK soundtrack are wheeled out every time, but some lesser mentioned examples would be Zero Wing (some of the most kickin' drums on the console and classic FM synth rock), the afformentioned Slap Fight arrange mode version, Crude Buster, Panorama Cotton, Battle Mania, and Marble Madness JP for how damn close they got to the arcade original sound.

Yep, the negativity towards the Genesis sound set-up is overrated IMO, no doubt fueled by a ton of people overexposed to the shitty GEMS engine through playing lazy western stuff in the past.

And for that, it's hard to blame them, since GEMS instruments are typically grating, abrasive, and altogether annoying especially when you can hear some decent compositions hiding underneath.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azonicrider

Eh some consoles don't really matter if you missed out on them, because the western version was crap (TG-16, Saturn).

---

I'm not one for disc consoles, but Guardian Heroes alone would have made the Saturn worth it. Then there are the sequels and spiritual successors to Beyond Oasis, and Landstalker(Legend of Oasis, and Dark Saviour), Die Hard Arcade, House of the Dead, the Panzer Dragoon series, Nights, possibly the greatest Bomberman game, Three Dirty Dwarves, Virtual-On, Mortal Kombat Trilogy, both of the first Street Fighter Alpha games, Night Warriors, Marvel Super Heroes, X-Men Children of the Atom, etc.

Then there's the fact that you could import Fire Pro S and Radiant Silvergun.

As for the TurboGrafx-16: the original Bonk trilogy plus Air Zonk, both Legendary Axe games, Blazing Lazers, Ordyne, a complete version of R-type(which Japan got the game split), Splatterhouse, Alien Crush, Devil's Crush, Dragon Spirit, Dragon's Curse(Wonder boy III: Dragon's Trap on the Master System), Dungeon Explorer, both Neutopia games, Legend of Hero Tonma, Magical Chase, Vigilante, Side Arms...

Just because not as much came out here as in Japan, doesn't mean that what little did didn't make it worthwhile.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azonicrider

Eh some consoles don't really matter if you missed out on them, because the western version was crap (TG-16, Saturn).

---

Only if you hate good games. There are too many to list from those libraries.

Believe me you can still have fun with western TG-16s and Saturns, but the Japanese version is better in almost every way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by azonicrider

Eh some consoles don't really matter if you missed out on them, because the western version was crap (TG-16, Saturn).

---

A large portion of my Saturn collection is made up of US releases. It's by far my favorite system that I own. And it's not like you can't play Japanese games on a US Saturn.

Kinda off topic, but I'd love to hear a Raijin YM2612 cover of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iEvJfdemUs

I want to try to cover that at some point. Not with the software I use now though. There's a 'GENNY' VST coming out soon, and hopefully it performs well enough for me to utilize the multi operator mode of FM channel 3 properly (I think I'd need to use the chip to it's full potential to get that sounding relatively decent, since that game uses a ton of PCM).

This one by Aly James?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU4COz6Gc4U

Nah, it's this one.

By the way, here are those two tracks from Grounseed I mentioned earlier; the ones that aren't on Youtube. I think they are worth sharing.
Cave
Longtime Ago

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raijin

Nah, it's this one.

---

Didn't know about that VST, really nice!

EDIT: Longtime Ago is probably the best FM song i've ever heard... holy shit.

If GEMS sucked so bad, why do alot of Genesis games use it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeoGeo64

If GEMS sucked so bad, why do alot of Genesis games use it?

---

It was supplied by Sega with the dev kits, the software ran on standard MS-DOS rather than globally obscure Japanese hardware/software, was easily connected to a MIDI sequencer, and had a decent gui (better than some oldschool synth editors judging from a quick play with it). To be fair this may have been part of the problem rather than the driver itself: it made it easy to do lazy MIDI conversions.

So using that youtube vst it's possible to output it as a 44 hz wav of course in computer but using computer to import it into let's say a md homebrew game at 22hz (as a wav?) so md plays it ? Isn't the md chip same as yamaha dx7 ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kamahl

Didn't know about that VST, really nice!

EDIT: Longtime Ago is probably the best FM song i've ever heard... holy shit.

---

Better than Masters of Monsters, or were those tracks not FM ? Who made Longtime Ago ?

FM Drive does a lot of things that are 100% impossible for the Genesis. As far as I know, the Genesis also has problems with samples above a certain rate, I think it starts to skip reads, or writes. I forget what exactly happens, and no the Genesis (YM2612 or OPN2 - 4OP - 6 channels - 8 algorithms) is not the same as a DX7 (YM2128 or OPS - 6OP - 16 channels - 32 algorithms).

Master of Monster is, of course, FM. Longtime Ago, and in fact most of the Grounseed soundtrack (PC9801-86 version) was done by Ryu Takami, with a few tracks by Ryu Umemoto. The soundtrack for the standard PC98 hardware (which uses only a YM2203, which has just 3 FM channels and 3 SSG channels) was done by various others, including those two, plus the tracks are all different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vector

Isn't the md chip same as yamaha dx7 ?

---

There are no synths that use the YM2612 but there are others that are similar enough to produce the same FM sounds. Both the FB-01 (which is sadly saddled with a poor MIDI implementation IIRC) and TX-81z can pretty much perfectly imitate the MD's FM synth patches. No PSG or DAC of course.

Genesis and Super Nintendo, while arch rivals back in the day, are a part of history and our childhood wouldn't be the same with the absence of either one. They made up the bit wars and the competition gave us some truly great gaming experiences. Both have varying advantages over each other in one way or another.

SNES still had a better sound chip, though (ducks and runs!).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OverDrone

All of this, now I've got the MD running through a semi-decent stereo the bass absolutely kicks ass on a lot of titles. I have a JP collection and out of about 50 or so games the only two I would say have weak music are, funnily enough, the American ones: Roadblasters uses some Tengen sound engine while Comix Zone utilizes GEMS. (The Japanese programmed Tengen titles have vastly superior sound - Snow Bros, Gauntlet IV, Slap Fight etc.) The rest of the games sound freakin' awesome IMO.

The popular examples like Metal Squad, Shinobi and the BK soundtrack are wheeled out every time, but some lesser mentioned examples would be Zero Wing (some of the most kickin' drums on the console and classic FM synth rock), the afformentioned Slap Fight arrange mode version, Crude Buster, Panorama Cotton, Battle Mania, and Marble Madness JP for how damn close they got to the arcade original sound.

Yep, the negativity towards the Genesis sound set-up is overrated IMO, no doubt fueled by a ton of people overexposed to the shitty GEMS engine through playing lazy western stuff in the past.

And for that, it's hard to blame them, since GEMS instruments are typically grating, abrasive, and altogether annoying especially when you can hear some decent compositions hiding underneath.

---

Agreed. Zero Wing and Crude Buster are two of my favorites.
A western-developed game that I would recommend you is Skeleton Krew. Its dark techno soundtrack has some awesome and very strong bass which you can't appreciate with cheapo loudspeakers and thus why it's usually overlooked. It was composed by Nathan McCree (from Tomb Raider series and a shitload of other games).
Check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PCeIXgmzgI

Of the games using the GEMS driver, one of the few that have a good soundtrack IMO is X-Men 2: Clone Wars. Not all tracks are great but most of them are good IMO and some are very good. I also like that the music, in some stages, varies a bit depending on the character you choose (usually the lead instrument is a bit different).
The soundtrack was composed by Kurt Harland (who would later work on Gex, Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver, etc...): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDCpx...D736A01E811D9A
I think it was one of the few games, along with the Tommy Tallarico ones, to use non-standard GEMS instruments.

Yeah, Skeleton Crew sounds great, Core Design are known to put in that bit of extra effort for Sega stuff.

Midnight Resistance, Crude Buster, Zero Wing, Chelnov, Double Dragon 2, Strider, all sound better than the arcade originals on real hardware in terms of soundtrack quality IMO.

The MD emulates the sound of arcade games from around the same era, and beyond, quite adequately. If you had rows of MDs all lined up playing simultaneously I would have no doubt the setup would sound just like a late 80s/early nineties arcade and that for me is what counts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeoGeo64

SNES still had a better sound chip, though (ducks and runs!).

---

That's pretty opinionated to tell the truth. On one hand, the SNES is certainly better at orchestrial music, and for obvious reasons. On the other hand, Genesis wipes the floor with the SNES with techno styled stuff due to the Genesis being synth based. Really, there is no "one was better than the other", rather it's all preference. You like the SNES sound better probably because it's sample based, and the SNES tends to sound more 'realistic'. That's all fine and good really, everyone has their tastes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OverDrone

If you had rows of MDs all lined up playing simultaneously I would have no doubt the setup would sound just like a late 80s/early nineties arcade and that for me is what counts.

---

Actually, 2 Geneses are more than enough to reproduce the old Arcade standard sound setup. :D

I think he meant an "arcade room" and all those cabinets sounding like crazy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raijin

That's pretty opinionated to tell the truth. On one hand, the SNES is certainly better at orchestrial music, and for obvious reasons. On the other hand, Genesis wipes the floor with the SNES with techno styled stuff due to the Genesis being synth based. Really, there is no "one was better than the other", rather it's all preference. You like the SNES sound better probably because it's sample based, and the SNES tends to sound more 'realistic'. That's all fine and good really, everyone has their tastes.

---

Depends on what you mean by 'better'. Let me tell you right now, I've heard lots of terrible orchestral pieces on the SNES, simply due to having a lot of bad/low quality samples stuffed into the SPC RAM, and hoping for the best. There's a reason many SNES games have simply really bad sounding strings (as in, the sort played this way), cymbols, choirs, and sometimes guitars. To get decent sounding instruments out of those without obvious looping needs a long sample. Either the composer does a short but 'obvious' sounding sample, or a long but low quality sample.

This sort of conundrum isn't generally an issue with synth, but finding people that can get decent instruments out of it is. It's just a crying shame that more composers/sound drivers didn't support looped samples via the DAC.

The thought process shouldn't be "synth vs. sampled", the thought process should really be "How do we get the best out of both worlds?".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flygon

Depends on what you mean by 'better'. Let me tell you right now, I've heard lots of terrible orchestral pieces on the SNES, simply due to having a lot of bad/low quality samples stuffed into the SPC RAM, and hoping for the best. There's a reason many SNES games have simply really bad sounding strings (as in, the sort played this way), cymbols, choirs, and sometimes guitars. To get decent sounding instruments out of those without obvious looping needs a long sample. Either the composer does a short but 'obvious' sounding sample, or a long but low quality sample.

This sort of conundrum isn't generally an issue with synth, but finding people that can get decent instruments out of it is. It's just a crying shame that more composers/sound drivers didn't support looped samples via the DAC.

The thought process shouldn't be "synth vs. sampled", the thought process should really be "How do we get the best out of both worlds?".

---

I still get the feeling that Nintendo overpayed for the SCP700 license. Nintendo probably could have gone a similar route to the Neo Geo (A Ricoh or something similar chip with 4-6 channels of PCM), and maybe a 4-6 channel FM synth chip along with a little more memory for samples, and come out ahead on cost (and used those saving to either make a console a bit cheaper, or shore up one of the other SNES bottlenecks).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silanda

There are no synths that use the YM2612 but there are others that are similar enough to produce the same FM sounds. Both the FB-01 (which is sadly saddled with a poor MIDI implementation IIRC) and TX-81z can pretty much perfectly imitate the MD's FM synth patches. No PSG or DAC of course.

---

Are those multitimbral synths? I think the DX-100 can at least duplicate any one YM2612 instrument.

Quote:

---

Of the games using the GEMS driver, one of the few that have a good soundtrack IMO is X-Men 2: Clone Wars

---

Doesn't Eternal Champions use GEMS? If so, it's a good soundtrack considering samples were not used in the game except for sound effects.

Quote:

---

The thought process shouldn't be "synth vs. sampled", the thought process should really be "How do we get the best out of both worlds?".

---

Well if you combine FM and PCM then you get Sega Custom Sound Processor... (I was listening to Super Robot Taisen F Kanketsuhen OST earlier and comparing the chiptunes with the original songs. Some of them sound surprisingly close eg. Flight High from Gunbuster)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakemono

Are those multitimbral synths? I think the DX-100 can at least duplicate any one YM2612 instrument.

---

Yes, they're both 8-part multitimbral. I'm a bit loathe to recommend the FB-01: it's fun if you can get one cheaply enough but it's audio output (on mine at least) is seriously "crunchy" sounding at high volumes. I suppose the caps could be getting a little aged, it's over 25 years old now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bakemono

Doesn't Eternal Champions use GEMS? If so, it's a good soundtrack considering samples were not used in the game except for sound effects.

---

Yes and Comix Zone and Earthworm Jim use GEMS too. Those 2 have really good music.

Sometimes, is not so much the music/audio driver (and composer tools) - as it is the composers themselves. Airzonk has a pretty mediocre sound engine design, but the tunes are great. A few NES sound engines that I looked at were nothing to write home about, either. And yet some great sounding music came out of them.

I never seen someone harp on the strings style music on the SNES (pun intended :P). That's usually considered its biggest strengths (FF2/3/Actraiser/Chronotrigger/etc). None of the systems are without their faults. Arguing superiority, is largely based on what you consider "important". Preference also plays a key role (as well as what you become conditioned too). I think most snes fans are turned off by the Genesis/Megadrive sound, simply because they haven't been conditioned or accustom to that "fm' type of sound. It seems a large majority of people, post-snes too, don't really care for it. I knew of one person that loved the NES sound, but really disliked the Genesis FM sound - and his opinion was that the NES sounded superior to him.

And if you think making good snes music, is as ~simple~ as just throwing some samples at it - you're wrong. It's a little bit more complicated than just simply playing a 'sample'. Especially considering the small amount ram you have to work with in the SPC. It's just easier to create terrible/ear grating instrument sounds with FM than it is on sample-based synth.

The Genesis/MegaDrive isn't without its faults either. People often complain about 'muffled' music on the snes. Yet no one complains about the nasty over modulation of some instruments in Genesis games. Thunder Force 4 is a good example. I like the music ~much~ better, with a lower cut off frequency to filter out the noise artifacts in the higher frequency range of the distorted instruments. It grates on my ears (it's like a high frequency digital aliasing noise). I also can't stand the 'fm' explosion sounds used in some Genesis games. I always thought the SNES had the best or most pleasing sounding 'sound fx' (minus that reverb they tend to over use), disregarding music of course.

You don't hear the "overmodulation" problem on real hardware, not on most models :P
And it is aliasing noise, that is how you do "noise" on FM.
White noise tends to make most nicest explosions, apart from samples -of explosions- not imitations with samples or something (that SNES games tend to do, due to lack of the sample storage).

I was influenced greatly by the Amiga, so I prefer tracker music like MODs more than FM music. Not that I don't like synth music, but it's easier to get a higher score with me on MODs than on FM music.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tomaitheous

The Genesis/MegaDrive isn't without its faults either. People often complain about 'muffled' music on the snes. Yet no one complains about the nasty over modulation of some instruments in Genesis games. Thunder Force 4 is a good example. I like the music ~much~ better, with a lower cut off frequency to filter out the noise artifacts in the higher frequency range of the distorted instruments. It grates on my ears (it's like a high frequency digital aliasing noise). I also can't stand the 'fm' explosion sounds used in some Genesis games. I always thought the SNES had the best or most pleasing sounding 'sound fx' (minus that reverb they tend to over use), disregarding music of course.

---

Metal Squad is the poster child for this, most people here love it but it grates my ears. FM explosions usually sound like farts or white noise (not on TF4 thankfully, there they just sound kinda weak, but SNES explosions usually sound super weak too).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kamahl

Metal Squad is the poster child for this, most people here love it but it grates my ears. FM explosions usually sound like farts or white noise (not on TF4 thankfully, there they just sound kinda weak, but SNES explosions usually sound super weak too).

---

Yeah, Metal Squad is really scratchy sounding. I feel there's a lot of better examples of good electric guitar sounds in that game like Evil Destroyer, Attack Sharply, Stirke Out, Stranger, War Like Requiem, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TrekkiesUnite118

Yeah, Metal Squad is really scratchy sounding. I feel there's a lot of better examples of good electric guitar sounds in that game like Evil Destroyer, Attack Sharply, Stirke Out, Stranger, War Like Requiem, etc.

---

Yeah, I always hated Metal Squad. I prefer the softer sounding tracks of TFIV like Sand Hell, Space Walk, Air Raid, Omake 4, and the stage 3 theme (can't remember the name).

Well, it's called Metal Squad for a reason. Then, some of the bands I listen to include Iron Maiden and Motorhead, and I've listened to Pantera, Slayer, and Sepultura in the past. So to me, it sounds like a good track, anyway.